WHY WAS THE 1000+HP BIG BANG 351 TWIN TURBO SO WEAK! HEADS, CAM AND INTAKE 351 SHOULD MAKE MORE HP! 

One thing's for sure. Older architecture O.E. blocks are very unstable compared to 6 bolt main, deep skirt blocks of today. Induction design very important as to engine purpose as you and Engine Masters have shown frequently.

Id really like to see what the High Ram manifold does!

I would like to see a big bang 460 video

I think it was the combination of parts but the intake was probably the biggest choke. Even a mild 351w picks up a lot with shorter runners. I remember when that intake came out and Muscle Mustangs swapped out a gt40/box for that intake on project white trash and it lost considerable power. Trick flow then sent them some twisted wedges to replace the gt40x’s because they said that intake was designed for them 😂 but really it was just the long runners. The final result was it made about the same power as before with the superior heads and cobra r intake.

I think you're on the right track. I'd take a look at listed flow numbers for the EFI intake manifolds and go with the highest flowing one you can find. The carb manifolds always seem to outflow the EFI manifolds by about 50cfm at the top. Short of that maybe have an EFI manifold ported to get the best you can out of it. If the fueling and timing are spot on, the next step is air management. Ruling out the heads leave the only 2 items left in the equation can and manifold. It is worth noting, 1 7/8" headers would probably be preferred here over the 1 3/4" you have.

I wish Holley would make low and mid ram intake manifolds for SBF's to go along with their high ram for guys who dont want to modify their stock hoods. Looks like it would work with the side feed lid or front feed if running a crank trigger (no distributor cap) ignition.

Funny, just before you mentioned it, I was thinking that you might want to try the Holley high ram next time instead now that it is available. I think that would be the better choice, other than going to something like a carbureted intake that is converted to efi with an elbow, for sticking with an ego and getting the best numbers from it. The later choice would definitely kill some low end if you did it with something like a Super Victor single plane, but that adds extra cost and complication to it since it’s not an off the shelf choice.

I'm with you on the EFI intake.

Would love to see a gen 2 LT1 big bang test. The Trickflow head and cam package would be nice to see, or some big AFR heads and a COMP cam, or a ported stock head package and cam from Lloyd Elliot of Elliot Port Works or from Advanced Induction.

A thousand horsepower on a stock block 351 🐐.

Those 185 edelbrock heads flow air faster than the afr. The afr 195 are better on a small motor

I think the problem is you had the southern hemisphere version of the EFI manifold; you need the correct northern hemisphere one so the air swirls the correct way. Either that or dyno in Brazil

Camshaft, intake, and throttle body in my opinion. Please do the High Ram! I’ve been waiting for it!

Excited to see ford big bangs planned, just sad it's not modular stuff

351w BB v2.0 incoming???….would be sweet to revisit it with real boost control 😂

Hi Richard! Nice analysis. Yup, you can't beat a 750 Holley on a good manifold! I was also wondering about the cams, and the cylinder pressures that each cam achieved. Perhaps the AFR headed big bang engine wasn't developing as much cylinder pressure as the other motor, due to the cam?

I blame over heated motors and ring tension

The camshafts are pretty close in timing to one another. I think the camshaft shouldn't be the main reason for the lack of power. What about the compression ration between the AFR and Edelbrock heads used in the test, how much of a difference is there? The original strength test was very interesting! I wonder are we at the similar level of weakness on sbc bottom end under boost?

It's not main bearings, they're huge for a >400 C/U engine.

I ran a 90s model 351w roller block, nice heads, E303 cam, blow through 8:5:1 comp. good rods, pistons, main stud girdle with a t4 pt 74mm turbo, air to air, that made about 700 wheel at about 15 lbs of boost on pump 93 that lived a couple of years with a manaul 6 speed transmission, when I swapped for a c4 auto trans the engine spent a lot more time above 5k rpm and thats when the block split through the mains after a few months. When I took apart the engine all the main caps along with the stud girdle had shadowing marks from moving around. luckily it didn’t destroy itself when it split, all that happened was it lost oil pressure. Then I swapped a 1970 351w block with the same combo that never came apart. Now I run all LSX stuff and its like cheating compared to production SBF blocks.

Richard you should set up an electronic boost controller so you can bring boost in later in the rpm range

Yes to high ram big bang with lots of camshaft. The tfs intake 351 was pretty sad. do dual quad bt tunnel Hi-ram with the cxr👯‍♀️ and join dual carb bonnets with a plenum in between

Yeah, it's an apples to oranges comparison with the different cams and induction setup's. One thing you mentioned.....you never know what kind of treatment or abuse a salvage yard motor has been subjected to. If the big bang motor was seriously overheated any time in it's life, then most likely, the ring seal has been compromised or reduced, and that could also be a contributing factor for the lower power output compared to the other motor.

Whats weird to me is that the big bang engine was down everywhere, although it did get worse at rpm. I think baseline na testing would he required here. The other question is obviously turbo manifolds for the exhaust.

Love your videos, wondering if you could do a true other guys motor, a 4.7 Mopar v8, would likee to see if you could build a NA motor and also see a boosted version. Have not seen many builds or performance parts for these under dogs, would love to see what you could do.

I would say the intake. That style of EFI intakes have long intake runners

How about a TF single plane intake with multi port fuel injection.

Narrow the LSA say...108° with everything else staying the same

Glad you and i revisited this as 1st failure. Thanks

That rod looks like the PEP rod we have broken several times in a NA motor.Stopped using them years back. 🤔 Power increase due to manifolds my guess.

I believe the runners on the TFS intake are too long. This intake for the 302 is the about the same length as the stock 302 intake. When using the 351 lower it is then one inch longer on a larger engine. The few dyno sheets I can find on this intake show the peak HP around 5500 rpm and I have similar results on my engine. I have purchased the box R upper intake and will try it later this year.

Maybe you could try a carburetor style EFI manifold like the single plane intake that comes with the edelbrock Pro Flo 4

Sounds like a classic example of piston slap, kills power every time 😂

Needs a sloppy stage 2 cam, ooh and a LS swap 😅😅😅

Love this ford content

Changing the subject, well, sort of, I've watched the videos where you went through different stages with the 351C, however I don't recall you starting with a 351C 2V. Which I have. Looking to make wallet friendly upgrades, and possible move up in the future. It is in a 73 Mach 1 Mustang I cruise with, going to shows and stuff. Is there any more power to be had with the 2V set up? Is there a cam that could help with the 2V carb and 2V open chamber heads? I seen mentioned that the 268H cam could be a good choice. I know Edelbrock has made a 4v intake that would fit 2V heads in the past, not sure if it is available anymore. I also know there are some racing classes on oval that require using a 2V carb. Would like to go with a top end kit at some point. Suggestions? My goal is a good performing street package that would still be capable of double digit fuel mileage while still being fun to drive. Oh, and 4V closed chamber heads are becoming hard to find too.

Cant wait!

I dyno tested a 75mm tb vs a 100mm tb on a 365ci SBF: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-c-RqsPv4aa4.html That and the intake (as Richard says) are this biggest HP killers. FWIW, the car in the TB dyno test had a 228/242 cam in it. The intake on that car started out as a Trickflow Street EFI, but has over 11 lbs of aluminum cut out of it (which is why it only says "Trick" on the top) and the runners are ported as much as they can be without breaking through. I still think a Box R r even a single plane would show more power.

The efi stuff is no good for na power.. carbs make power. Plus the lobe sep was better on the carbed 351w also. Just those 2 thinks will make up the power difference.

Richard can you also run it carburated with a victor jr intake and 205 afr renegade heads

combination cf cam and intake wows on the power

Man record the dyno session

Good work Richard. I’m trying to learn more with my roller 351w. My current setup isn’t optimal at all. I have a mild ported lightning lower, gt40 tubular, ported trickflow 170s(very old), trickflow stage 1 cam. Car seems to run out of steam around 5400 rpm.

Used the wrong 351 I would guess...(windsor)

do you know if any of he clevelands ever came out with a roller cam from the factory? also have you or will you a junk yard build with a Cleveland please?

I know how you can make it better make it a cleavor with a high Ram like you said and cram as much boost down its throat as possible lol

AFR make some of the best sbf heads.

1994 and up roller blocks are knocked for being weaker, but yeah, while that intake design copies the Saleen $1,000 intake design, it's still a long runner design and back in the day, most went for the short runner "breadbox" designs that killed torque down low for above 4,500 rpm performance out of the 302. would be interesting to run one here to find out how much the housewives' theories were true. and an infrared gun scan of intake manifold heat would be interesting--is that long runner huge surface intake really soaking up the heat post intercooler or not?

That 3 inch main is awful. I would get a SHP427 block with the 4.125 bore Windsor, 9.5 deck and FE/Cleveland main size.

Hi Richard - if you end up using a cutter on the pistons to fit a big valve head again, it'd be interesting to know what they all weigh after the Big Bang! 😆I've been tempted to do that a time or two on Junk Yard builds, but never had the courage to do it. A friend always jokes that he's "sure they're within + or - a half gram", when he does it. LOL

Hi-Ram 11R heads As big of cam as you can fit SEND IT!!!

Maybe like you said, the induction system may not be well matched with the heads. I know the 351s tend to be really sensitive with induction tuning, that shortside turn is really finicky on stock-ish heads.

Let's see some PROPANE POWER!

More compression

Right on

How about that EFI 72mm throttle body holding the motor back? Does the carb flow more air?

Because FORD!

Are older blocks maybe stronger? I was going to try to duplicate on a 69 block 351w

what is a relatively safe, reliable power number for fully stock 351 internals?

👍💪

I think the lsa at 114 is way to wide . If it was 107 or 108 i thi k it world make more power

How much ring gap do you add ???

10:03 I thought the trickflow R was the better option over the Trickflow box for my street turbo setup because I try and keep it under 6200 rpms, maybe I had the wrong intake on my mind for an upgrade. I was worried about losing daily driver torque under and near my 3k stall.

Switch the heads

"WHY WAS THE 1000+HP BIG BANG 351 TWIN TURBO SO WEAK" Ford? LOL

Why don’t you ever mention the rockers if it’s 1.7 1.6 or watt that would help me out greatly thank you.

pistons are the weak link must put lots of gas on them

Wrong Cam!

The cam. You say it worked good on a 302....well, a 302 is not a 351 and the cam will act as a smaller cam on a larger engine. It's not lift or LSA....it's duration at 0.050, you need to be in the 250+ degree duration area and 265'ish wouldn't hurt a bit. With turbo the cam should spec more lift and more duration on the exhaust than on the intake.....gotta drive the wheezer, right ? It's obvious to me with the cobbled hogging on the piston dome you're no engine builder....far from it.

Personally I blame squirrels....... yip

Umm...cause it's a Furd. FACT 🤣🤣🤣

To much head

351 Windsor blocks can't handle much more than a 302

It's a Ford. That's all the explanation required.

Because it’s a Ford.

It's a Ford......

Any plans to mess with a dodge 4.7l magnum? Its not a very popular motor, but it would be cool for someone to do a high quality video on one.

I don't know why anyone would run a 75mm throttle body "R" on a 351w anyway? They make a 90mm version. Other videos on youtube have shown a noticeable increase in power with a larger throttle body. That engine was being choked. The "Box-R" Trick Flow intake w/90mm would be an even better option than the standard "R" intake.

Richard, I'm in complete agreement with you on the intake system limiting/reducing the power numbers. I pay a lot of attention to firing sequences, as opposed to firing orders. One of the problems with the Ford 1,3... firing order is that cylinders 2,6, and 5, all hit the intake manifold consecutively. On a dual plane manifold, this isn't such a problem as the separated plenum isolates/protects the cylinders from charge robbing during the intake stroke to some degree. On a single plane manifold, the larger plenum also helps the situation. On the efi manifolds however, the front part of the manifold is in an extreme demand situation compared with the rear part, as these 3 cylinder runners are side by side in the plenum. My personal opinion is that the front part of the plenum needs to be at least 1 cylinder volume larger in capacity than the rear. I would also suggest that in a dual tunnel ram set-up, there may be an advantage in having a larger carburettor on the front, and/or a larger plenum volume in that area. Unfortunately, I no longer have easy access to a dyno to do testing with, so my theories remain just theories. What's your thoughts? Great video. Regards Greg

He should have done a 351 cleveland motor.

If you're blaming the torque on the 351W blowup it was 200 odd less than your LS big bangs wasn't it ? All those Ford EFI manifolds must all be too long in the runners for revving up. Run that 351 base manifold without the top bolted on 😬

I think the smaller cam killed 20hp and the intake killed 30hp

Heads were to big

I guarantee it’s all in the intake, those things restrict airflow like a mf, a victor jr. edelbrock manifold with a Holley brawler series carb (750-950) would be a day and night difference

Could this be a deck height issues doesn't the 351w come in either a 9.5 or 9.4. The 9.5 could have been down on compression because of that? (NA issue)

Any chance of a test of the big AFR gen III hemi heads on either a 5.7 or bigger gen III hemi? They flow a ton, like 390 cfm, and, to me, seem like the new version of Cleveland 4V heads...completely different of course, but big valve, big flow #'s for a 5.7-6.0 motor.

I think the match is much better matched in flow speed cooefidecent. And the Edelbrock hits the crossover on the valve.

If you could get hands on such things a big bang fr9 would be sick. Or build something with d3 heads or c3

Just wondering was the junk yard engine mag checked for cracks if there was a Crack in the main valley could it cause vacuum issues causing the lower H.P.

Could you flow bench each upper manifold? I wonder if you stick a borescope in to each of those EFI manifolds, if you can see some roughness or narrowing on one that isn't on the other? Those folded EFI intakes always looked terrible for flow. Now you've confirmed it.

Have a similar 351w just with 12.1c/r, can i safely run boost on a dual plan air gap with E85

Those "R" manifolds seem to neck down on the head side,im assuming to prevent "hitting" the intake port on a smaller head. I had to port mine alot to get it to match up to a CNC old school TFS Twisted Wedge head (205cc). Not sure how much that could hurt it,i would fingure 20hp,but a 51hp loss is alot.

Richard, I totally agree the BB Windsor was very low on NA power. For comparison, my 347 with AFR 185s, Holley Systemax intake, 70mm TB, shorty 1 5/8 shorties and custom cam, .600/.595, 227/231 with 112 LSA made more power. Holley Terminator X manages the important stuff. It made over 400 RW horses and 370 lb/ft. Something was definitely amiss on the BB motor.

351W BB motor. Test the bigger cam with the bigger AFR heads and use the dual plane air-gap with carb vs throttle body EFI (Terminator or Sniper), then switch to a single plane Victor Jr with port EFI. You can use the Holley ECU or the ProFlo4. IMHO, the bigger heads will carry the cam 500+ rpm past the expected cam limit. The port EFI will also help the peak HP. I like a 408 with 215-225 heads and a 240 @ .050 HR cam. Test away.

351w - Some of us with hood clearance issues are forced to use the Torker II intake on our 408s. I would like to see a Torker II VS dual plane air gap vs Victor Jr. comparison. Please add this to your "things to do" list.

I have a very experienced forum buddy, Steve from a company in Lebanon, IL. He has used the Trick Flow R upper and lower, on customer cars and has been quite disappointed with its out of the box flow. As it came, either 5.0 or 5.8 liter, it requires a few minutes die grinder and linishing work radiusing the lower to upper and that helps some. Hard edge Square section holes don't seem to show good HP returns you might expect. The rest might be a poor cam lobe centerline choice. Maybee those two factors are 410 hp at 5800 rpm. Importantly, I notice your quoted figures on the big bang engine is revised down and different 4 to 1 HP from your 2014 article.

3in diameter main Journal is for work in a truck it is not high performance and that is the weak Link in the 351 Windsor I've had five in my truck and everytime I throw the crank out

What is the story with the pistons at 4:11 in the video? Is that just a stock photo, or did you really just hog out the piston with a carbide cutter?

Woo finally a bang

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