Will Anything Be Banned Ever Again in Commander? | The Rules Committee | Magic: the Gathering 

Bowmasters isn’t a problem. There need to be cards that punish blue. I play blue, and there needs to be things that punish what you’re able to do. If anything should be banned, it’s thoracle. It’s simply the easiest wincon in the game. Lab man was enough, there doesn’t need to be a card that wins the game with a trigger that you can manipulate yourself so easily

So I am 59 seconds into the discussion but here is my first thought: They will never ban a card again without Wizard's permission. They walk the delicate line of doing free work for Wizard's but if they ever deviate from what the overlords want their power will be taken away.

Counter spells are used for a reason. Not to mention removal cards... No bans needed

Cmdr is just not meant to have a banlist or honestly even be played with strangers at gamestores. It's purest and most enjoyable form is just playing with your friends with whatever cards and power level you desire. Trying to make it a constructed format that gets played at gamestores makes sense from a business standpoint, but I've never been able to have a good time at cmdr night at the shop because of power level differences between decks. It's a pipedream to think you can have fun playing a casual format in a competitive setting.

i feel like the rules comitte has been contradicting themselves a lot over these years, like they say thassa's oracle has no presence in casual play but whenever i go blind to a commande table on a lgs i have seen a demonic consultation + thassa oracle win more times than what it should be, yeah this probably doesnt happen to everyone but for me i got tired of losing the coinflip while im playing with new people, i feel the banlist should be used so you dont have to use rule 0 everytime you sit down to play commander with new people, another thing is that in what world is golos more ban worthy than dockside. i just saw a video that talked about the most hated decks people play and somewhere it said that the worst thing that can happen to a format is not a broken card being released because it will get banned but a strong card that is not ban worthy getting released, since it will be forever be in there making some players miserable.

Saw someone talking about how this OB is unfair because they died for drawing 17 cards, as if drawing 17 cards is a fair action that doesn't need to be answered.

I am all for a card that punishes players for doing the most broken thing in the game. Drawing cards. As someone who enjoys playing blue decks I both loathe and love this card. Its a great design and I cannot wait to cast this in response to a Peer into the Abyss.

The only card I would want to see banned is Thassa's Oracle. It's just such a boring win con, that I never feel like I enjoyed myself when someone pops a Thassa victory. It reminds me of a conversation I had in the 90's. Someone was complaining about the power level of new cards and said something like "A lot of players would just be happy playing a card that simply states "you win the game"" And I personally think that Thassa's is on that level.

If Dockside is fine then Primeval Titan needs an unban.

I've been happy with the lack of bans recently, but the Discourse about Elesh Norn, Bowmaster, etc has been irritating.

I think Primeval Titan should be unbanned if dockside isn't

I will say it is odd at how heavy bans were an now how lacking they are. It's hard to declare any new bans, but as you look back previous bans seem worse and worse.

Just casually enjoying Mirkwood Bats in my Edgar Markov deck. 👌🏻

commander is casual play, nothing should ever be banned.i play with any card possible (etc ante)

Reading all these comments under the video, I come to think what a wonderful club we have. No one ever says what should be banned and what should not. Mass destruction of lands, hulbricker, dockside, Golos - we played tem and were happy with it. It's amazing how 13 years ago people cried less because of Armageddon than they do now.

Sheldon just takes shots at cards he doesn't like lol

Golos did nothing wrong

I honestly don't think anything atm needs to be banned. There are some really powerful things out there, but that doesn't mean it needs the hammer. I would rather have lots of cards removed from the ban list and just have a quick table talk before the game . There never will be a perfect ban list where you don't need to use rule 0. It's a game and it's about having fun which is why talking helps!! Like no stax, no mass land destruction no blank is what I do!! . Just my opinion 😎😎☺️.

Here is the problem with bans (even tho I'm for shaking up the format) if you ban an EASILY removed card then you are just telling players that they don't need to run interaction or removal as anything that should be removed is instead just banned. The difference between bow masters and Thassas is that Thassas requires a counter spell or stifle not just any kind of removal. And counters and stifles are in blue. Meaning that to combat thassas you must be in blue for the most part. Leave bow masters alone.

I just dont want to have to worry about an expensive card ending up being a waste of money.

I think mtg as a game is just a wee bit more complex than "is it stronger or weaker than dockside"

When you consider Rule 0, bannings are almost ceremonial to most of us - your play group can do whatever the hell it wants. Unless we talking about sanctioned, competitive commander play, these bannings don't really mean much, as you can ban or unban anything you want in you want in your local play groups anyway

I think what it should come down to is literally having the player base come together to make two categories of cards. cEDH and EDH. dockside and other cards would be cEDH and it would really make the "power level" more manageable. Even cards like rhystic study and smothering tithe are getting quite annoying because if you play those colours they are auto includes and it sucks having these single card engines that just you need to have in your deck in order to keep up with everyone else. Either that or potentially the rules committee could break it up into two categories and we could please the overlords while still making the game funner and more enjoyable for the more casual players.

I think a happy medium the RC could pursue is a tiered ban list. Something like the following: 1) No brakes, wild west. Unban everything 2) Commander that we all know and love presently 3) Casual EDH, that bans the obvious ones: Dockside Extortionist, Gaea's Cradle, etc. This way, players still have the choice over their power level, and the list are all still suggestions subject to Rule 0; however, players can more easily coordinate their power level with lists shared between all players easily accessible online. This democratizes the process of bans by giving playgroups a preliminary mulitple choice as to which level they like. It also enables the RC to ban at will without risk of obliterating Timmy's favorite deck, as a ban would simply push the deck into tier 2 or 3 legal status (i.e., still playable). Most players will likely straddle the line between multiple modes as they might already with PreDH and Commander now. Maintenance would be simple for the RC since the only list that will ever be updated is #3. I reallt think this solutions is a strong one. Please let me know your thoughts.

Mirkwood Bats was stuffed into my Prossh deck as soon as I read it. Good common is good!

We have an own banlist and restriction list in our commander group.

With the rate of cards being printed, Wizards is bound to make the power creep worse and worse. Let the playgroups decide how they want to play rather than have RC trying to keep up with Hasbro's corporate greed.

Teferi’s Puzzle Box and Teferi’s Ageless Insight with Orcish Bowmaster… everyone dies in a couple turns 🤣

To your point of thassas oracle, some card has to be the best in cedh, and there are other win conditions at a similar (not quite as high) power level in cedh, so it’s not as big an issue as flash, which made decks not in blue and green automatically sub optimal

that is crazy. At first I thought this had to be worded to only do one damage & +1 orcs for each opponent, but this is for each card after the first, so at best it is, the number of cards each opponent draws -1 for each opponent. I have never seen a card printed like that. The ones I have seen that trigger from card draw, trigger from the second card they draw only.

You cant put the amass triggers on the stack and sack the 1/1 token to Phyrexian alter after each trigger and get mana..

Rules committee will unban Golos so they can ban it again. #justiceforgolos

Mirkwood bats would have not been a card anyone even glanced at as being problematic if wotc hadn't pushed treasure tokens so goddamn hard in the past few years. Play dockside extortionist where all your opponents combined have like, 13 artis+enchants out. Bats deals 26 damage to every opponent. 13 for the treasures, 13 for saccing the treasures. And with that 13 mana in your pool, you can prolly win the game (even just by finding a way to make more treasure). Example2: Have copper dragon. Play bats. Swing at someone with no flying blocker, roll like a 15. Deal 30 damage to every opponent. yehh... Or, example3: Be doing 'Prosper' things, with one of the many exile/treasure loops that deck just ends up doing every game: burn all opponents to the ground with bats. Oh, and for every single example, if you have an Academy Manufacturer out, you TRIPLE most of that damage. yehhh.... Bats isn't inherently broken, it's just another symptom of the fact that treasure is ultra-pushed and pretty damn broken these days. If we didn't have so many cards that make you a billion treasure as easy as sneezing, bats would have never even entered the discussion.

I understand why Dockside Extortionist isn't banned. As you said, it doesn't stop your opponents from doing anything and requires them to have a good number of artifacts and enchantments (side note; for the longest time I would have sworn it was just artifacts, i had no idea it included enchantments). At the same time though, it's basically an auto include in any deck (if you can afford it) that has red in it. Having a few staple cards is fine, but not when they're this good. For quite a while I was on the side of the Rules Committee, believing it didn't need a ban. That has changed. It would be better to ban Dockside, not only to please the community, but to open up decks a bit more

Tbh. Three things need to happend to fix about 75% of the Issus with balance in MTG beside Banns. 1.WotC need to stop this ,,Power creep" and slow down with the release if new Products (That will never happend again) 2. WotC must change the Rulings of Tap Ability Artefacts, they need summoning sickness that will destroy the most of the infinite/High synergie combos. (That will never happend too.) 3. Play enough Entchantment removel, that will help to Control the other side of wombo combo high synergie lines

The Commander committee needs to step up and "Tier" Commander much like SMOGON for Pokemon. as a start point Causal Tier - Extensive ban list that limits that do not support "fun" / Examples - Staxs, Fast Mana, Free Spells, 2 Combo win cons, draw engines like R Study, S Tithes, Enchantment draw engines. Land Destruction. Casual Tier 2 - Bring back some of the bans from "pure" casual tier. but not so many cards that deck could be considered CEDH. Win cons win the game on turn 6-7 ( ban out anything that sets up 2 cards wins or before turn 6 wins) Typal Tier - ban out commanders that support tribes from the command zone. And tribal wipe cards CEDH - Most open format with very very few bans

If you have a sac outlet its 20 individual creatures very important and powerful

People freaking out about 2 and 3 card combos with Orcish bowmaster is funny. How many 2 and 3 card wins exist in the game again? Come on people.

I recently was in a game that ended in 20 minutes because someone dropped a turn 2 Bowmasters. Nobody had anything to kill it. People were drawing, not even wheeling. Bowmasters kept the board clear from every potential threat, and then the guy grew the token to be like a 35/35 and took two players out in like turn 5. This was meant to be a low power game.

With the Bats its more of you play that, then create an obscene amount of food/treasure/some other token. Or the other way around make tokens play Bats. Then just sacrifice all those tokens to kill everyone at the table. I dont think it will be that hard to pull off.

rc is working on a banlist page update that goes into further discussion of the why's of what's banned. I personally think it will be shook up and some things will be taken off the list.

With all this talk about Orcish Bowmasters I feel like it needs to be pointed out how strong draw decks are. Sure it is a solid inclusion in a wheel deck, it's also great to use against mass draw decks which are the consistently strongest decks I've played against in over a decade of commander. We need answers to decks that draw 10+ cards every turn because those decks will win. Orcish Bowmasters is an answer. Even more so because other answers have been banned...

It’s not the giant token it’s a sac outlet for 21 uses, in black is black known for sacrificing stuff for effects?

I have to laugh at Elesh Norn...especially to the poor lad that played one while I was playing my Ramos (previously Golos ) Maze's End deck. 😂😅

Elesh Norn MoM is an annoying card because it can be a deck archetype hoser which is probably fine but still not great. I don't think Mirkwood or Bowmaster come close to bans. I do think the RC has really boxed themselves out of being effective with bans in terms of creating a healthy format though because they've essentially put it out there that power level isn't a valid reason for bans, cost/availability of cards isn't a reason for bans, the only reason they ban cards is for them being "anti-fun" which is not only subjective but also not a good reason to ban things.

I think Bowmasters, Thoracle, Dockside and the lot provide a very specific playpattern that is unhealthy to the format. They are low mana cost, extreme value creatures with built in engines/win conditions. A 2 mana creature should not read as "I will win the game". Now I kinda agree that an early game dockside won't due all that much in most casual pods (it might generate a treasure or 3), but in the late game it will still produce too much value even in casual. I'm very strongly of the opinion that there needs to be separate casual EDH and cEDH ban lists (where Thoracle is a much healthier card in a way), and even then I would very much like these cards to be banned (even though I own all of them). They do not provide a fun, enjoyable game experience; and we should be aggressively pruning them out of the format. Also, Vorinclex Monstrous Raider is much more problematic than Elesh Norn. It shuts down so many different gameplans it's not even funny.

Rule 0 still matters more then banning stuff, i can play against any of these cards if i know we're going for that kind of game, you fix certain ones by not reprinting them and offering replacements that fix the issue like stapling the cast requirement on dockside if you make something similar

1. Banned as a commander should be a thing already; if we can deal with what feels like hundreds of mechanics across multiple sets, we can deal with a list that says you cant play this as a commander. 2. Ive never been a fan of turning commander into "singleton legacy" and believe stuff like thassa oracle and dockside are not healthy. 3. Commander games where oracle and dockside are prevalent create a feeling of "you need to play blue to answer these cards." If all colors had more answers that happenstance answer oracle/dockside I would feel better about it. No one complains much about old jin gitaxia turn 2 because players each had 1 turn to answer it before losing their hand. 4. Tbh i havent played mtg in a long time so I cant comment on orcish bowmaster but wheel combo cards like narset have usually created feel bad experiences, so I think that orc card is a better direction of design than yeeting player hands-though thats not to say its balanced.

Nobody talks about notion thief and its basically the same as hullbreacher

Hey guess what? If you’re playing against 3 creature decks and you run Dockside, it’s not going to be that strong. It’s only as strong as the meta you are playing in

I think there should be treasure hate cards. Like "(splitsecound) destroy all tresures on the battlefield - they cant be tapped for mana"

I think they could fix the whole treasure problem by erratting treasure tokens with "this token enters the battlefield tapped".

💯 agree with you Mitch.

I mean there is already a ton of ways to break wheels, so I think it would make more sense to ban wheels. Yeah I think a ban list for commander is dumb, I just want to play my gristle brand. It was my first mythic I ever opened and therfore I would try to put it in decks if it wasn't banned, Not to break it just play it. So I would rather no banlist, table talk is the way to go.

The thing about banning cards these days is you never know whats overpowered cause the next set is always more pushed

Again I feel that Commander is a format of freedom. You play with whatever you want. There is even people that dont give a flying f*** about the banlist and play with Golos, Griselbrand, time vaults or whatever floats their boat. Of course if you show up to a table and people are playing that style then dont participate end of story. If someone is on DC Thassas then dont play. Problem is that you still want to pilot your Tribal Bear deck against a Turbo Rog Silas or Blue Farm like decks in disguise then of course youll lose. Again thats why it is important to talk before the game. State the strategy and in how many turns it achieves it.

I'm not sure there's much point in banning cards in the first place.. After all, ones playgroup could always discuss and allow banned cards

thassa's oracle + Demonic consultation is in commander may i remind the RC

I love dockside and have many copies but it’s the one that should go. Every time anyone plays it the table groans. I rarely see it played and not win on the spot or put them in a position to do in short matter of time. Granted I do play higher power games but dockside is always the card the game start to center on when played by copying or reanimating it. Feels like how games used to fight over Prime Time Paradox Engine or Prophet of Kruphix.

I just want Recurring Nightmare unbanned simply because I own a playset from back back back in the day when it was affordable. Also, "hard to interact with" applies to every annoying spell that's not a permanent. Also, also: I feel like only things the RC bans are things they find annoying to play against in their own group, like wheels. Also banning the bats would be extremely bad. It's an accessible card, and it'd seem really mean spirited to band that while not banning things that cost 20-70 dollars.

Orcs + Bats + Sadistic Hypnotist: they draw a card, you ping them 1, create a token (ping each opponent 1), sac the token (ping each opponent 1); they discard 2 cards. Wheel = game over. You aren't making a big army of orcs; you can make MANY small armies of orcs if you sac them repeatedly.

It's hard to predict what they're going to do because they're too stupid to predict.

My view is simple, and not my original idea, but one I fully agree with. Ban the reserved list until they remove it and reprint everything, and ban Dockside.

The Committee likes having the "unofficial" power that they wield to influence how the format plays. I don't buy the bans to keep the format fun part. Scratch the surface of them and you'll find people who are relishing the power.

The problem with most wheel cards that are banned is they prevent opponents from drawing giving you a 6 card advantage, pinging things isn't nearly as much of a problem,things should only be banned if they're causing major issues and widespread un fun game states it should not be used for cards we just don't personally like

couldn't you use Ashnod's Altar with Orcish Bowmasters and just generate tons of mana? In your Wheel of Fortune scenario, you wouldn't even need to have a 21/21 Orc, but you could sacrifice it 21 times since each bowmaster trigger is a separate event and then have 42 mana right? edit: I'm more looking at this combo specifically in a Balrog deck. Not saying it's optimal, but if trigger/sacking 21 times can do a lot more things on Balrog than a 21/21 might do alone.

If EDH were to actually casual, it would require actual bans to enforce that. Like banning Thassa's Oracle because its just a generally unfun card to play against. Someone will say "but just rule 0 it" but that line of thinking is like ignoring the dog turd on the living room floor and expecting it to sort itself out instead of just tossing into the garbage where it belongs.

notion thief is legal, it stops extra card draw completely, why would shooting 1 damage and making a 1/1 army or an existing army 1 bigger be banned at all? the opponent can still draw cards. and find an answer. as well as the army is chumpblockable if it ever were to attack.

We might need another hullbreacher to ban anything. Heck oko crowned one got unbanned.

It would piss people off that own them but Wizards needs to either reprint the old super fast lands or ban them. $500 for a bent ripped up “Underground seas” is a huge barrier of entry and honestly makes the game semi “Pay to win” to have more consistency

Mirkwood bat is way scarier than the bow master.

Nothing should be banned, except creativity.

If people can win turn 1 regardless, i find bans pretty pointless.

Everyone needs to realize the more WoTC gets involved in a format the more they erode what makes that format great. Especially, if they make a successful product for that format. Look at modern masters and how great the first one was, look at modern now. Rotating and warped every horizons release. Commander will die, if the ones who run the format dong buckle down and ban shit in response aggressively to make WoTC know they cannot just print power cards to make a buck. Thats the ONLY way to promote quality design with intentions of health instead of money.

Online people seem to be saying that Orcish Bowmasters only works when it enters because of the 'and' thoughts?

No mention of free card draw with the one ring?

idk, on Elesh Norn would be bannable because it's a very clear instance of absolutely insane power creep. For 1 more mana than a panharmonicon, you get a 4/7 body with vigilance, and a one sided torpor orb, this card just costs like 3/4 mana less than it should, based on what it gives you. But also with the topic in the video I think that dockside should be banned, and my group has banned it at our table, cause it's a much better primeval titan.

the reason behind the ban discussion of bowmaster is mostly how unfun it is in politics, someone specifically drawing cards so an opponent can remove your thing is awful, on top of that there are SO MANY things that already punish draw, just not as overwhelmingly efficiently on a card that you want to run in your deck even if your playgroup doesnt have someone who is drawing crazy and oh btw it costs 2 mana. but it isn't nearly as bad as elesh norn in the command zone, for god's sake bring back commander zone specific bans. this card is really really not fun to play against when it keeps coming out, it always has to eat removal, having it come in on turn 3 (cause ramp) die, come back turn 4, then die on 5 and come back on 7 is about the least fun you can have in a game of magic especially because of the prevalence of etb removal in casual magic. it isnt fun to play as it tends to be a "either i keep it and win or you remove it and my deck is mediocre" situation and its very unfun to play against. jeweled lotus would have been banned on printing if the rules committee was not a wizards mouthpiece, it makes every game it appears in less fun. dockside is basically the same. the simple fact is that they prefer to ban for things that stop your opponent from doing stuff rather then stuff that lets you do stuff, even if the resources generated are so obscene that it ends the game in an unfun and unsatisfying way.

It’s just a big token: Fling: 🚀💥🤕

cant really downplay that 20/20 orc army that comes out after a wheel. sometimes a wheel is played early on and not a lot of people have any chump blockers or mana standing for removal.. its kind of just an unfair insta-kill on someone

I hate treasures. If they weren't produced in ridiculous numbers and maybe enter the battlefield tapped, it would be fun again. And/or make them unique 5. So maximum of 5 treasures are possible.

What is the group consensus on banning Dranith Magistrate?! I think that is way more powerful than Dockside since it prohibits playing your Commander from the zone!!

One argument against banning bowmasters is there are other cards still legal that ping for someone drawing, at least 1 is a legendary creature, and the legendaries i have in mind ping for 2 damage, sure bowmasters gives the choice of where that damage goes but you can politic using it to eliminate big threats

Honestly.. they haven't banned Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Sol Ring, Fierce Guardianship, Thassa's Oracle, Deadeye Navigator, Rhystic Studies, Mystic Remora, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Volcanic Island, Mishra's Workshop, etc etc etc etc... all of those and more are stronger than Dockside Extortionist or stupid Golos, and if the argument is "they can't ban this because X isn't banned and X is better" then they will never be able to ban anything because they're never going to print a card in a new set as good as Mana Crypt.

What is more surprising to me is they haven't unbanned stuff like Biorhythm, Braids and Primeval Titan.

They should never ban anything!

I don't think there should be any bans I'm a casual format. Competitive yes. Casual no. Just don't play against people who use cards you don't like💁‍♂️

We let sol ring be legal so yea everything should be lol. The stats of turn 1 sol ring going on to win is probably insane lol.

I'm gonna say it. I'm sick and tired of card draw hate getting banned. Every other play style gets hate cards. All of a sudden a card FINALLY punishes Chulane players for drawing their entire deck and the solitaire players are crying for bans. If Orcish Bowmasters gets banned, then its time to ban Graveyard Hate, Artifact Hate, Enchantment Hate, Token Hate and any other cards that punish a play style or deck strategy. Also ridiculous that they would even consider banning Bats while Thassa's Oracle is still legal.

If Hullbreacher is banned, I sincerely don't understand why Notion Thief isn't banned.

I would say that the Bowmaster is definitely annoying, but its not ban worthy from my perspective either.

Still annoyed about about Golos, and no i refuse to play cards that got banned even if my group would allow it. Now i am building my second kenrith deck so stop be and my 5 color good stuff now 😈

Honestly Im still salty for back in the day I was saving up money so I could buy a Paradox Engine for my deck. A week after I got up enough and made the purchase the rules committee banned it. I was pissed. Not only could I not use the card I spent time and money to get, but now that card's price absolutely tanked because of it. I still have it to this day just sitting in my binder.

damn i remember when breacher was 32 usd lol

At this point I lean more towards no bans at all. If it is insisted that there be a pregame discussion on what everyone is playing, then the ban list isn’t serving the purpose of simplifying and making the game experience more enjoyable. This isn’t to blame the RC, I think curating a format on fun rather than power makes this an almost impossible task.

2:23 wouldn’t Bowmasters deal 10 damage, not 9? 9 off draws and 1 off etb?

Formats fine.

Chatterfang loves his little bat friend. Let them be ffs 😤

If nothing is going to ever going to ban anything, then everything needs to be unbanned

Wait, you're telling me people aren't using bowmasters for orc tribal? I'm skeptical, but people are free to play whatever they want.