Regarding driver retention... in part, the driver shortage is a bi-product of the chosen strategy many of the larger carriers have adopted for staffing their driver work force. They offer below pitiful mileage pay to a new guy starting out and run him day and night during his training/trainer phase. (essentially a team driving setup designed to extract as much driver value as possible for the least amount of investment). The rookie is excited because he's getting unbelievable miles, getting starry-eyed when he thinks about the money he'll soon be making as his mileage pay increases. However, as his experience increases, and his cents-per-mile increases, the company steadily throttles back on the amount of miles they give him per week. Most end up quitting before they cross the year mark. --- It's a business model based on the belief that the junior drivers are an expendable and self-replenishing commodity. --- Good video.
(just to shadow what you are saying) worked at a few shops over the years. Have worked for some that see you as a "tool", just like a drill. Put it in the "machine" drive it as hard as you can without breaking it, and when it is dull, you remove it and put in another drill (you end up wasting drills this way but the company spends 5 cents to make a dollar). I am grateful to work in a shop now (small "mom and pop" family style) that recognizes that the value of longevity and experience out-way pep and ignorance.
I'm not a truck driver but I totally understand the nostalgia you mentioned. Ever since I was a kid I loved seeing them on the road but it's such a rare sight these days. I'm 36 now and probably won't ever become the truck driver but if I ever do, a cabover is what I would want to drive.
Cab-overs were great in the cities because of the increased visibility. In metropolitan areas with tight turns and lots of crossing pedestrians it was nice to be able to see in front of you. On the highway their benefits were not so prevalent. Great video! Thanks!
I drove a lot of cabovers in my 38 years on the road. Your right, the cabover driver is the first to the scene of an accident but in tight quarters the visibility can't be beat. However the worst thing about cabovers for a DRIVER is the ride. Even with airbag suspension and air ride seats they will beat you up. You put 10-11hrs driving a cabover and at the end of the shift you definitely deserve a cold beer.
That's true! Funny how sometimes you only remember the good stuff! I do however remember falling backwards out of one when I missed the step one day. That wasn't fun. Dave
having driven a cab over cube truck in the UK, with all round steel suspension, i found the somewhat ride to be firm but not harsh. you knew what the front axle was doing beneath you and you had good feedback through the suspension. Modern Euro Long-haul trucks have Air between the axle and the frame on the front, as well as between the frame and the cabin, and also below the seat and they look to soak up undulations in the road better than the likes of the Argosy, K200, K108 (yes i know they're Aussie models but they're the only regular cab overs made by US manufacturers now.) kenworth offer the K500 using a DAF cab for oilfield work, so there's no reason they could not make it into an OTR model. If i were to be in the states, Id rather have an Argosy or similar. as for fuel savings, running at 55 vs 60 or even 70 makes a BIG difference. a typical EU truck will peak 9 miles per uk gallon at 44,000kgs.
Xantec I drove a Peterbuilt day cab w/a 430 hp and 4.11 rear. @ 1175 to 1250 rims for a empty return trip of 150 miles and got 22 miles to a gallon . Took forever. Speed at 1175 rpm was 44 miles per hour got cussed out for returning late to the terminal
Cabovers ride better than conventionals because most of a truck's harsh ride originates from the drive axles. Cabover driver is farther from the drivers and over the cushy front axle.
I've been driving for the better part of 30 years. Never heard "curb sniffer". The common lingo I've always heard has been to call it a "conventional". Yes, I agree, retention is a HUGE problem these days...
Well if any of you have driven a FH16 Volvo 600 Globetrotter cabover like here in Australia at 93000 pounds and that is only with a single trailer you would find that what a beautiful truck to drive..so quite and a ride like a cadillac with double bunks and stand up 8ft ceiling and factory fridge..an amazing cabover to drive just like the VNL 880s in the usa but Volvo wont try to sell FH series there..shame really.
Volvo , Scania , Kenworth and now seeing more MAN cabover trucks sell in big numbers in AUS , interstate B Doubles and local tip trucks , by far the most common tipper would be a cabover on our roads .
I learned to drive with a Mercedes C/O and a 1976 GMC Astro. The visibility was fantastic in those things. I used to do coast to coast in a flattop Freightliner single bunk. Pretty tight quarters when you put your gear in the truck. I still see a lot of them up here in the Northeast . Big drawback to those truck was the harsh ride. If you had spring ride that was the worst.
There are brand-new cab-overs operating here in Sherbrooke Quebec. The advantage I understand is that they haul over-length steel, therefore i see the steel extended over the fifth wheel.
Here in Oregon, I've been seeing a few of brand new big green Freightliner cabovers hauling hay. And there are a few farmers out here that still use their old cabovers that they bought new in the 70s and 80s.
The hay haulers (and the bakeries) have realized they can max out the 68' combined trailer length with doubles, and also use a 12' dromedary deck or box in Oregon. Gives them 80' of load length, almost as much as the 84' they get with triple 28' but without the extra permit/licensing requirements or weather restrictions.
You are right about Cabover tractors. I started out with a 1984 GMC Astro in 1986, and then drove a 1986 International Cabover as well. Then I switched to a 1978 international Cabover, but loved it the best. I love the cabover tractors, you can see the whole road in front without a hood blocking the view. The Conventionals definitely has a better ride and mileage, but I still prefer a cabover due to the nostalgia I have at starting with one. Thanks for a great video.
This is interesting since cabovers can basically be found anywhere in the world such as Europe, Africa, Asia, and some South American countries. Curb sniffers although more prevalent in North America are also really popular in Australia and are used as tractors for road trains. Also from what I've seen there is a pretty good mix between cabovers and curb sniffers in Argentina.
A lot of the negatives mentioned - bad safety, poor fuel economy, harsh ride, only applies to old school American cabovers. A modern Euro cabover is safer is just about every way except a head-on against a brick wall (when was the last time you saw that happen?). The best ones can hit 9 mpg grossing 90,000 lbs. And the fully air suspended cab AND front axle can give a very decent ride.
Roy J problem is...there's no way even a euro model would be getting 9mpg here in the states. All of the bs that the epa demands be put on a modern truck to "regulate pollution" decreases milage and in turn creates more pollution. Prime examples are caralytic converters and ethanol fuels on gassers and DEF on diesels. All three of these either greatly reduce power output and therefore mileage (catalytic converters & ethanol)...or they do nothing but cost the driver money and generate revenue to the federal government (DEF. Adding urea solution known as def does not in fact reduce emissions at all...it merely hides said emissions from the sniffers that dot/epa uses.) Then add in the bs that DOT/fmcsa requires as far as auto trans, trac control, crash survivability garbage and the tractor would wind up weighing 9500 lbs more than in europe and it'd be lucky to see 4mph.
ROTAXD Mack is owned by Volvo, Peterbilt and Kenworth are part of the Paccar Group that includes DAF(thankfully not owned by the Dutch part), Freightliner is owned by Daimler. Euro brands have their hands well and truly in the U.S. market and would easily be able to satisfy EPA regulations, the only thing that really came from this video is the idea that American truck drivers are operating in a different environment to everyone else. This simply isn't true. Australian trucks run up and down the east coast weighing 68 tonnes (150 000 pounds) and probably half of them are cab overs.
I've been driving since '76. The best riding and handling truck I ever drove was a '78 Mack Cruisliner. It had a 300+ (315) with a 10 speed transmission. I ran N. C. to N. J. and Philadelphia 3 times a week and could set my drink cup on the dash and it would ride there the whole trip. Loved that truck!
I started in a cabover in 1992. But I was glad to get out of it, I found the ride much less comfortable. All my stuff ended up on the floor... and once on an interstate in Pennsylvania, I hit a pothole that made me hit my head against the roof. A couple of years ago I got back into trucking but in Europe... so all cabovers here... they surely improved them, they are much more comfortable now and even have better aerodynamics - of course nowhere near as good as a curbsniffer.
I got my start with a 84 coe freightliner and I couldn't wait to get in a long hood Pete 359, found a 79 359 for sale for 9k and bought it on the spot. Lost the engine in the first month, pulled out the Cummins from my coe freightliner I had layed over and put it in the truck and went Trucking. Love that corvette dash of the old Pete 359's!
You're exactly right.. I learned to drive not only a truck but drive all together when I was twelve. It was in a 4070b transtar cab over.. Ahh the good old days
Cool trucks are great as long as your stomach isn't hurting and your mortgage isn't over due. They use to buy fast trucks for the same reason until drivers figured out no matter how fast you go it won't take away the hunger pains. Yes a young kid wants to look cool, while the rest just want to make a decent living, and there lies the only problem with the trucking industry. The industry and the corrupt government wants professionals but they don't want to pay for them. You will drive anything if the pay is right.
I agree that cool trucks aren't enough to bring drivers back... However, the carriers know they can just go after the young & dumb upcoming generation and be able to continue the cycle...
Thing is, talk to the young guys, they don't like the large cars or cabovers. They like the swoopy aero rides, for some reason. They like the gadgets and the dock for the Apple Tunes. They leave the CB at home so they can play with the iPhone. Times have changed.
i must be an exception to the rule because i love old trucks and machinery always wanted a go at a b61 and ive only been driving 4 years ill also take an atlas over a gps any day
Yesterday morning here in Melbourne, Australia, I saw three almost brand new Kenworth Cab overs hauling crushed rock and sand for XL Concrete. They were set up as follows; Tandem steer, tandem drive, tandem dolly for the dog trailer, which had tri axle rear and the forward axle lifts when running light. Cant recall if the cabs had a sleeper bed or not. We tend to have a mix of cab overs and curb sniffers in day haul and long haul here, but the over riding thing is the total length restriction which tend to keep the size of any sleeper to a minimum.
I have never seen any on the road when i went to USA...As a Kiwi/NZ driver of them based out of Perth Western Australia( i call them shit boxes )...they have got alot smoother in their ride...hittting Cows,Camels,Horses and BIG Red kangaroos even with a BULLL Bar on the front did a shit load of damage in comparison a long nose( your curb sniffer/conventional) going outa town without a BULL bar was asking for it(told the boss about it,he no listen,Banged up 2x hahaha)...ooh Perth WA to Brisbane Qld 4400km/2735mi one way...some roads would flick you up off the seat/in the air...they should allow more up front for stability...safe travels people!!!
What I envision is a hybridization that has the cab over engine moved forward a few feet, and the front fascia being slanted to achieve greater aerodynamics. With the need for ever greater fuel economy reducing drag is paramount. By slanting the bottom front of the cab forward it creates space for a utility box, and allows the sleeper to take over space that was once occupied by the original utility box. The visibility afforded by a cab over design allows for better maneuvering in tight places, and the slightly protruding nose would provide at least minimal crumple zone.
I put a lot of miles in those old Skillet Faces. Hated them back then, and would hate one more now. But there was a lot of docks back in the day. With a 42ft reefer and White/Freightliner. It was nice to back into those docks with. Later on with a 1979 hood, it would take 5 minutes of cussing. To get into the same dock,that it took 1 minute to get into with the sharp turning Skillet Face. My feet would almost freeze in those old Cabovers. While from the chest up was hot. or go through 3 or 4 sets of Boot soles per year. As getting into the cabovers, I would have to get new soles on my boots. And about ever 3 months, I would drop them off at the Boot repair place. Get back in a few weeks to pick those up. Always had 3 pair in the truck.
Yeah, they could be cold old bastards, couldn't they? I drove a cabover Freightliner briefly for Trimac and had to wear snowmobile pants to drive them in the winter. dave
you had 3 or 4 ladder runs to use climbing up into the cab that were notched for traction causing them to be abrasive....if you pull a tanker and required to get on top using its ladder on a regular basis you will wear out the souls of your boots also,
r_topp3 that's why I never wore out my shoes, I'd step on the tire @ 10 o'clock position grab ahold the steering wheel and swing my butt up onto the seat
I see the o/o leasing on to carriers for load network, insurance discounts, to handle the endless paperwork, maintanice discounts. They have been regulated, fee and priced out of the Industry. It takes time to learn how your numbers tells you the rate you need per day, week, month. Good video.
Can overs are still popular in certain industries. For example, movie and TV production is huge in my area and all the companies that supply trucks to films end up providing the same handful of trucks: cabover semis because they put on tandem trailers and have to navigate tight movie set locations, stakebed open trucks because they can make the stakes fit whatever need they have, box trucks with single plate aluminum lift gates because they don't want to deal with folding parts that can break and aluminum because it's lighter and lets them load more weight on the truck. The cabover trucks definitely have a use among those people. And as far as I know, you can still order a new cabover from some NA manufacturers. It's just very rare.
I miss the cab overs so much. i trained in one in 2004 when i got my cdl in atlanta. There so much more effeicent than these big monsters on the road today. So much easier to drive in big cities like atlanta. I would love to see them return and i know alot of other guys feel the same.Thanks for all the great videos.
Shippers, brokers and carriers want bigger trailers. Every time trailers got longer and the weights got heavier, they were linked to driver pay raises over the decades. What happens is yes the driver got a raise but the driver hauls a 'free' load every so many loads and the Man has not really given a raise at all, the Man has eliminated 1 driver out of 20 just illustrating spitball example.
I'm 20 and just got into trucking. First truck I drove was a w900 that we use to haul grain on our farm. I just recently purchased a 1994 White/Volvo cabover in great condition of another local farmer for $3000 because no one wanted to drive it. The truck has less than 500,000 original miles on the 11.1L Detroit. Looking forward to putting some work into the truck to give it a whole new look. Love those old cabovers :)
I don't mind working on cab overs the odd time I've had to do it. Once the cab is up everything is accessable. Only thing that's really hard is pulling the rad out.
I remember the cabovers.I remember riding with my uncle is a little kid in his cab over and I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. And I'm a truck driver today.
I'm not a trucker but an older guy. I enjoyed the pictures of the classic cabovers. When I was young I did get a chance to drive a few cabover box trucks (C30?) and the view was wonderful. Reminds me of my old '67 microbus. Yet you are correct, the safety just is not there in a crash. The microbus taught me how to keep a decent following distance!
First truck I drove back in 1982 was a GMC cabover, otherwise know as a Jimmie. No guts, loud, and had an exhaust leak that came up through the floor. I happily graduated to an International Transtar shortly after that that.
Smart-Trucking.com From what I remember, an Astro was a model of GMC trucks. I believe the term Jimmie applied to any GMC, but I could be wrong. It's been a long time. Trucks have come a long way since the eighties. My favourite ride was a 379 Pete and a KW WL900. Both sweet trucks.
You can still get cabovers in Australia, Kenworth sell the K200 which has the same cab design as the old K108s, K104s and the K100. And Freightliner have the Argosy. You also have the choice of all the European and Japanese Cabovers.
Cabovers caught my attention when I was a kid. i just loved the old Piggly Wiggly and Winn Dixie fleet back in the day. That look is like a dream of the past now, but i still love it.
Most of the new drivers coming from where I work are dock guys that want to get away from putting 50-59 hours on an unheated dock in the winter with no dock bumpers to keep the building from being a wind tunnel. Most people outside the freight carrier industry don't know that a full time dock guy does not get overtime till after 60 hours so the company always is understaffed because you can be made to work those long hours as well as its just as cold on the dock as it is outside. When its -20 outside it is as well inside the dock, plus the long building catching all the wind and pushing it through that 2 foot gap on the sides of every backed in trailer and it rockets through. Just remember when you buy something in winter that some poor dock guys toes and fingers felt like they were going to fall off all day long moving freight so you could have it.
I drive a cab-over though it is only a GMC/Volvo street flusher... You talk about new drivers and when I upgraded from DZ (class 3) to AZ (class 1) I couldn't get a seat for love nor money. I had to fight with my own employer to finally get an assessment. Every employer wants drivers but nobody wants to train anyone anymore. Good luck at the protest rally in October and thank you all for your service!
My dad grew up driving cab overs I grew up riding around in them. Granted they where uncomfortable as heck to drive but I agree it is the nostalgia of seeing one. of those bad boys rolling down the road An I don't miss sleeping on the dog house
I grew up in a cabover. My father had his own authority and towed mobile homes. He had a GMC Astro. This brings back fond memory's of riding around the state and listening to Paul Harvey and Rush Limbaugh.
If it's any comfort to you, my workaday truck is a 2005 Freightliner Argosy. I pull flatbeds, stepdecks, tilt'n'loads and some light lowboys, often with an oversize load. I'm based out of the Montreal QC area, and I often pull 60-foot-long office trailers without a pilot car because the lack of hood keeps me within the lenght limit to do so. I love my job, and a good part of it is because of the truck I drive. And besides, you can't beat the visibility!
I drove an old International Cabover back in 2001 for Milan Express. I would drive it even today. It had a short shifter and a decent enough ride. No matter how tight the space was I could slide in a 53 footer with ease. Just watch out for those potholes. I hit one with my left steer tire too fast and found out just how high my air ride seat could bounce me. When I finally regained consciousness I was looking at the back of the air horn. 🤕
circusboy90210. I glad you reminded me Burlington Motor carriers had 220 wheelbase freightliner and Builders Transport had shorter wheelbase international with 4.11 REAR ends I like the freightliner better because the load could be against the front bulkhead while the International about three pallets had to be braced against the bulkhead against the load as not to overload the front axcel. But I like the Builders Transport International with its 4.11 rear end got great fuel milage even with the low rearend
Mr. Pink Yeah! I know what you mean! I know drivers that would drive nem 379's and 389's for nothing! Then pay the truck owner $.10 a mile just to look cool going down the road driving a tractor that the front looks like a brick! Ain't making crap, but he's Cool!
I drove cab overs for about 10 years 75-85 and loved them, especially when running the east coast. My favorite cab over was the GMC Astro, that was a very driver friendly tractor. One major problem with cab over trucks was following when getting out of the cab. I had a friend who broke his back back.
I understand here in Europe after 2020 all new Cabover Trucks will have a different design/shape in that they will be slightly longer at the Cab front with a 'Bowed' shape for improved fuel mileage and less drag. Deeper Windscreen for better visibility to see Cars, Cyclists or Pedestrians. And better frontal Crush protection in case of a collision. Even more efficient Euro Diesel Engines with an improved compact Exhaust emission control system/SCR, 'AdBlue' (known as 'DEF' in North America). European Cabover Trucks are a lot easier to get into and exit compared to the older style American counterparts due to having a 'staircase' behind the Doors in Front of the Steer Axle. A lot more compact inside (very wide though) but clever design to utilize available space. Steve, UK. (ex Truck and Coach driver since 1973).
My Dad brought one home that he had heavy equipment on back that he was using at job sites in the 70's. I was scared as a child to ride in it because I felt it was right over the road. haha. Looking back, it was pretty cool. Thanks for the video.
Loved the look of the cab over could get it in and out of tight places. Had a rough ride. I learned on a 1976 White Freightliner matchbox cab Coca cola truck. When I got the opportunity to drive the 1984 cabover Freightliner with a sleeper I thought I had moved up in the world.
im 39 and spent a lot of time in cabovers over the last 17 years in the middle east, canada, and the usa. I have very little complaint on cab overs my favorites were the 1990s internationals and the kenworths. My oldest cabover i drove was a 78 freightliner that only had 7 gears. I think its great for new truckers to start out in older trucks it teaches you a lot i also like how much more maneuverable the cab overs were. Cabovers allow you to get out of tight spots that young drivers get into a hell of a lot easier if cabovers come back i would hope that international makes one and if not then i would go with a volvo globetrotter i had a really good one in iraq before it got blow out from underneath me then i was back in mercedes benz Actros trucks they were good but not as good as the globetrotters
Keith Starr - some good points from someone with experience, but to balance your perspective "...cabover over the last 17 years...", do you also have several years in a curbsniffer? It seems difficult to find someone with several years experience in both styles of truck, do to geography.
Sorry, but I have to call you out on a couple of things. Sure, if you hit something in a Cabover and you aren't wearing a seatbelt you will go through the windscreen. But it's the very same in a nosed truck. Hit a solid lump in any vehicle not wearing a seatbelt and you're going out the windscreen. Jacking a cab up to work at an engine isn't a major issue either. It takes 2-3 minutes and you have full access. Source - I have been both a driver and a mechanic. I totally get what's going on here though. The poster is an old school guy who likes what he learned to drive in. Because of this, he doesn't like change. The world moves on friends. Adapt and survive.
I've seen a few cabovers down here in Oklahoma. I do remember when I was a kid seeing JB Hunt with all the Cabovers they owned in the 80's and early 90's as well all over the place too.
We have a 4070 we get out just for harvest each year. People do love to see it! Main trucks all year are a 1994 Freightliner, 2006 Freightliner, and a 2006 8600.
TRUCKER ERIK JOURNEY'S yes, you can get a kw. But you have to order 5 and pay for them up front. I tried that 4 years ago. The argosy is just a columbia with no hood, and sits 9 in above the engine. You freeze in winter
Crossed the country in several of the trucks in this video. The first one, the burgundy GMC "crackerbox" near froze to death in that Detroit powered turd one night. White Freightliner was the worst riding POJ i ever rode in. But a K 100 Ken and Worthington (Kenworth) and the Pete cabover dad drove were SWEET ! Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
You can get cab overs in North America still. Have to order them from companies like Volvo or Man. However, you are generally stuck with only one engine option. Occasionally you see modern cab-overs driving the North American corridor (basically I35 extended north into Canada and south to the Panama Canal).
First driving job back in 81 was hauling spuds from the field in a 58 COE Kenworth, 220 Cummins 4,4 trans. Had fun in that old truck for awhile. Company had a black 69 Pete COE and we put a wooden sugar beet box on the back that the boss pulled out of a field. Took it to ID to haul beets for a small farm and the truck would barely fit on the local scale and side lift. The box started creaking and was about to break apart and they said don't bring this truck back with that box on so I drove Black Mamba back to OR. Fun truck but I never bought one for myself. Wound up joining the Navy in 84 and that ended my driving jobs. Sure would like to have an older one to pull my 37' 5th wheel. Long frame to put the Hog on the back in it's own shelter. Kudos to you drivers. Working in the sandbox since 2007, not sure if I'll ever get behind the wheel again. Miss it in many ways. Still have my class A but I'd need to recert with someone before driving full time. I sometimes pull a 48' Featherlite gooseneck with my dually pickup and while not the same, it's a long ass trailer and it brings back memories of always watching turns, Pulled doubles hauling wheat for a short time before my USN time but once again only in AG.
BUT....They were in production before air ride seats. The only COB currently in production is the Freightliner Argosy., popular with moving companies.. I understand that their wheelbase allows for a smoother ride.. The Peterbilt COB is,however, still THE ONE..for me...
I was so happy when I got out of my cabover and got my first conventional in 1990. I would never drive another cabover again much to old to be crawling over the dog house and put my pants on lying down will retire before I had to run otr in a cabover again. all these young drivers wanting cabovers these days never had to live in them like we did. We use to say the driver was the first one to the accident of he was in a cabover
John Campbell I agree with you. But that was until I found the 9800. Stand up in front of the seat, and step into the bunk. Only a 4 in dog house with the big detroit, and still get a 70in bunk with 8 feet of head room. 8 mpg avg, and only 18500 wet. Great with ltl and pay by weight loads.
Yeah the cab overs they are running across the pond have a real short doghouse. And look alright. I don't know though as I've only driven conventional I'm the US
@Roland Blackwatch and in the case of the Mercedes Actros and Scania S-cab, NO DOG HOUSE AT ALL. okay you have 5 stairs to haul yourself up but inside you have a space that would easily rival a cascadia.
No type of truck is fun to drive or cool to drive in Canada. The speed limiter is a big turn off! And is not like we want to speed, but no one likes to be restricted!
In these past 2 years I've seen more cab overs than I have since I was a kid I LOVE it I love and enjoy the style! Everytime I see one on the highway I point it out to my girlfriend. Would love to see these make a comeback! Great video
There all over Europe and look pretty neat. Plus they have trailers with steerable axles. 60ft length and high gross weight too. The future will bring about a combination of the two cab types.
When I was active duty Navy, I learned in an L9000, but when I went to formal training in the civilian sector, I had the opportunity to drive a KW cabover. It was a nice ride for an older truck. If a cabover is coupled with a drive-by-wire accelerator then it wouldn't be a big deal. I was told by the instructor that if you turn the wheel full over that the accelerator cable runs the RPM up and makes backing a little trickier when you're trying to swing a trailer around. Maybe that was just a quirk with that particular truck, I don't know. I liked driving it.
The first tractor trailer I drove was a 1977 International Transtar cab over with 290 Cummings 10 speed road ranger. I liked the visibility I had in it.
My first was a Transtar with a 318 and a 13 speed. Can't remember the year but would have been in there somewhere. Used oil like a bastard, I remember that. Dave
I drove a cab over for about a week then quit my job, just walked away from the truck seen to many people getting killed driving cab overs. The saying was the cab overs were first on the scene of an accident...
Drove cabovers for close to 10 years in the 70's in the far north. Much prefered over a long nose in tight yards and narrow gravel roads. In winter the roads got wide and smooth. Spring breakup was a bitch.
