Revisited this a year later. What I do is temp cycle with staves, but slower, I get it to 60c in a bath in a slowcooker on high for a couple hours, then on warm for 6 - 8 hours find it around 45c, then room temp for 24h, burp, shake then fridge for 24h, burp, room temp, burp and back to heat... 6 - 8 times like that, then let it sit for 3 months with an occasional burp and shake. I think it works pretty well and seems to give an effect that is not quite equivalent to years, but is more than just tea bagged for sure.
I was throwing some more wood into my potbelly in he shed one day and thought i wonder what it would taste like if i put some Australian Redgum in one of my jars and let it age, Now its all i do. Love the flavour and i feel its unique to my tatse.
one thing came to my mind when you "shaved" down one of the chunks: in a barrel, first (& most?) contact is with the charred side, so more or less all substances "seep" through that layer. Using staves, there's a lot of raw surface (and you reduced the charred surface even more when cutting down the edges...) if not burnt completely...
I had an interesting thought while watching this video. What if you put the jar in a vacuum chamber? It will force pull the air and water/sap/flavor out of the oak. It may give an interesting affect... just a thought. Keep up the awesome work! I love the channel!
I went on eBay here in the US and found red wine barrel oak chips under smoker/BBQ. Figure they might work as a "finish" oaking. Kind of like Scotch that has a sherry finish
Hi Jessie. I've read from a few folks on the home distiller forum that you can deliberately over-oak a whiskey, pull all of the wood out, and somehow the spirit will keep aging? Supposedly, the bits the whiskey pulled out of the wood are in solution but haven't transformed the spirit yet, and as long as you leave it with some headspace, it will continue doing a bit of what wood does on its own. I'm not sure if that's just oxidation from headspace, or only applicable to freshly distilled spirits that sorta mellow out even without wood over the first year or two. . . I've also heard from some folks that they left their over-oaked product on wood without removing any, and eventually it sorta self corrected after nearly a year or two. . . What do you reckon about these strange reports? The common curiosity here is that these spirits had the same amount of wood throughout and time was what carried it to a supposedly good result.
Would it be worthwhile buying a heated ultrasonic cleaner to agitate the wood while heating it to draw the flavour of the wood out? Can set the heat and timer for 'x' amount of time for the agitation? 🤔🤔
Idea: When the wood comes out of the whiskey, what about lining a bench vice with food safe plastic or stainless steel plates and basically wringing the remaining whiskey out of the oak and back into the jar? Maybe the soaked wood would give up some of those flavors that usually takes years of temperature change, humidity variation and barrel time to provide. I'm not a distiller, since the United States government is really serious about not letting private citizens undercut the distilleries' profits and are pathologically worried about losing tax revenue to some dude making a few bottles of booze in his garage. In spite of that, I'm deeply interested in making whiskey and the methods of reducing the aging process. I have ideas I want to test, but Uncle Sam says no.
It's always impressive the way you can pick out and name flavours etc, but sometimes I would like you to give a "quality" level, like crap, fair, good - you know what I mean LOL.
Would you consider tasting a commercial product we can get and taste along with you? This would help make some of your comments like "dusty" clearer to us. Thanks
Hello, have you thought about using a vacuum to suck the air out of the wood so it draws it into the wood when released. Also I had an idea for a vid, could you do sugar washes but using different types of sugar, same volumes liquid, same yeast, same weight of sugar. Thanks 👍🏻
If you crack the lid of the jar then reseal after heating you release the pressure created, it pulls a vacuum as it cools to room temperature. The vacuum increases when goes in the freezer. If you crack the lid when it comes out of the freezer then reseal,air entering the jar will be chilled and when it returns to room temperature it will pressurize the jar even before it is heated.
@@AgeWhiskey - And a true vacuum chamber isn't necessary either. Many of the common "food save" type appliances have a mason jar attachment. Super easy.
@@andyh7537 really? This is the first I have heard of this. I thought you use heat the create the vacuum. Do you have a link? I wonder how high it can get the pressure?
You can make the vacum sealant diy. Make small hole, put a tape on the hole and the hole part put another tape on the glue. And suck the air out using vacuum sealer.
Inerstin! I've done similar with the hot/cold cycles using the microwave oven. Microwave to about 150 dF, cool to room temp, into the freezer for 3 or 4 hours, back to room temp, aerate by vigorously shaking, and begin the process again. I'm near 72 yo and don't feel particularly confident waiting 2 or 3 years for a run of likker to age. There's a chance it could outlive me.
:) 🥂 Yes, it is true. In fact at the start of my experiments I use oak wood, but now I drink as it is. Good taste is after 1/2 of year in the jar with wood. Better is after 1 year - good quality drink. I agree with Jesse about wood taste after 1 month in ordinary aging process and I think "white" is better for all who make small amounts of spirits. For mega distillers it is different of course. Cheers! 🥃 P.S. Maybe... we can prepare wood alone - it means we can try to "marinate the wood". It is like that - take wood and sprinkle with water and le it "ferment" themselves. Than when we start to smell "whiskey flavor" of the wood we add it in the spirits. Why I say so? Because we in our property chuck oak wood which was laying long time under the rain... and wood ferment themselves and when we chop this peace of wood we smell Whiskey!!!
22:50 I'd like to know what the hot/cold cycle does to the white (un-oaked) spirit. Does the "esterification" happen to the spirit without the presence of oak. BTW, having wifey there to call BS on your tasting notes was pure gold. I'd like to see more of that. 🤣 Neat experiment, I've tried to do something similar to fermented but uncarbonated strong beer, like strong Scotch ale and Barleywine.
The "number 1", "number 3", "this one" way of indicating which batch you are describing left me in the dust. Something like "hot/cold stave" would make it clear which batch you are describing. There are six batches, for goodness sake!
Great discussion. My takeaway is more wood and the hot cold cycling. In my limited experience and even sketchier test processes, staves need more time in the hot/cold cyces than the chips (which I attribute to surface area) . I use Sous Vide 45 minute cycles hot bath /.ice cycles to good effect (to me) for chips. I tried the same with staves (but different whiskey) and I thought it came up a bit short. This pretty much confirmed to me that the cycles do something special.
There is an established relationship between reaction rate and temperature. Generally people use a variation on the Arrhenius equation and the rule of thumb derived from that is every 10°C (18° Freedom units) increase in temperature doubles the reaction rate. So the during the high temp cycles reactions were happening ~8-9 times faster. I think that could outweigh the cycling effect with the oak. If you just kept it at high temp for the same amount of time you might end up with something similar to the cycling experiment. - a geochemist.
This is actually something I had been thinking about. Nice to hear it from someone that knows their stuff. The idea with changing temps is it changes pressure pushing alcohol into and out of the wood. Intuition seems to tell me that's slightly different with the wood and alcohol being inside a closed system. (As apposed to a barrel where the wood is the barrier). Thoughts? Although, it really dose seem to jump in color after a cold cycle.
@@StillIt I think with the wood basically being immersed that pressure variation isn't going to do much. There isn't really a pressure gradient to force flow, especially with chips that are going to be fully saturated. Even the staves are going to have exposed end grain. The main mode of exchange would be diffusion, which would also increase with temp. Cold temperature might effect the oils...? That's getting into an area where your guess is as good as mine. I don't do petroleum geochem.
What about bubbling a bit of ozone through the spirit for a short while to oxidize some of the chemicals to change. Simulating the oxygen, wood, spirit cross section of the barrel?
On a side note, your stash is getting close to Yosemite Sam's. Maybe next time you decide to shave, leave the stash and dress up like Sam. Just a thought. Cheers my friend.
Humm. Maybe try hot/cold cycles, but less extreme and more of them. And introducing oxygen by opening jars a few times. Thus simulating Texas weather and the interaction of the spirit with the outside air thru the wood as it would in life size barrels.
Good stuff. No harm in trying stuff. Scotch malt is very complex, that's why it's made here only but I love the attempts you've done and your enthusiasm. Maybe try 2+3 together
Hello. Have you ever experimented with BBQ/smoker wood chips like hickory, maple, alder, cherry. apple wood chips etc as an alternative ageing wood and how their flavour profiles are VS the traditional oak chips?
The Science would say it can be done, but with a bit of time to let it Mellow, because of the Harsh extremes it took to force the flavours out, needs time to yer mellow, because microwaves boil water and the water has penertrated the wood and water heats up fast under microwave so the wood will too and expel the flavour / Sap of the wood and the wood fibre flavours / or flavanoids for the geeks or people who think I don't know sqaut, anyway, like Jessy says it's hard to go back in time to fix things that have gone to far, So Slow and Steady in the nuker over, and still needs time to meld, mellow combine molecularly synced 👍🏻🇦🇺🥃
Jesse, you said you needed a Bain-Marie. You could actually use your large brew kettle with the Grain basket and your inkbird. Done that before using a small 1k element to heat up like 10lt of water and keep it at a specific temp. Works like a champ.
Hi. I don't know where else to put this, so I am going to chuck it out here. I used to work for a government engineering section many years ago, so cannot talk about specifics, however. "At work one day" we were playing with liquids under pressure and their effects on something else. Why I am putting this here is the smell of the liquids would change significantly when pressurised, especially if the liquids were raised in temperature. And if my memory serves me well? The higher the temperature and pressure, the more the smell would change favourably. I do remember thinking it went from the worse smelling environment to the best smelling. We're talking industrial paint, acid smell to tropical Sea air and cakes. Has this been tried on spirit?
Interesting man. Was this pressurising the liquid, releasing pressure then smelling it? Or were you under pressure with the liquid? I have seen people using pressurised vessels to force age in. Ambient pressure has long been talked about in terms of forcing whiskey into and out of the barrel, gaining more interaction with the oak. I think this sounds like something slightly different though. Interesting.
@@StillIt the smell was not the goal. It was a very pleasant byproduct when preasure was released. It did not smell good before. I used to gag with some of the concoctions. They where preasurised for long periods at 15700 psi.
Awesome experiment. It is exactly what I have been doing for years. Over saturate for a little bit and then remove the wood and let it age with only 1 very small stave. Best I have got was 2 years old and that stuff was very tasty.
Great video!! ---->I think every chemistry guy will tell you: you should organize a protocol, answering precise questions, maybe 1 at the time. (As you have acknoledge) BUT, I enjoyed very much the video, is is spontaneous and fun, very good the idea of others tasting the prod beside you. You inspired me!!!! LOL
Cool video. Interesting. If I’ve learned one thing over the course of time… It’s relatively easy to make something look “aged”… It’s virtually impossible to make something young taste aged. But that doesn’t mean you can’t keep trying.😊👍🥃
Yup, agreed! colour is easy. Taste & mouthfeel is something else entirely. Thats why this is kinda intreeging to me. I think I did a bad job of explaining in the video. But the point is not to do this just for a month. But to do this before ageing for say a year. Hoping to get a jump start on that.
@@StillIt Absolutely… I’ve got a corn and a rye whiskey headed on 2 years old. The nose is phenomenal… the taste is still a little bit too much alcohol. But it gets better every time I sample it. I jarred and Oaked it at 110 proof which probably contributes to the heavy alcohol taste. But I’m looking forward to seeing how it develops. You did fine explaining it… It’s really just doing it yourself and WAITING.🤣🤣🤣… and waiting. Good stuff.🥃👍
Good video,love using wife's taste buds,I have tried about five oaks,different amounts, different roast,what I have found with my tasters,they all agree roasted French oak is too strong, oily taste,so far,in my rookie opinion the Jack Daniel's barrel chips create a nice color and taste,I put 2 Oz per quart,I dry them out with no roast,actually put them in right out of the oven,so they rehydrate in the spirit, then leave in until the color,no time involved, Like a dark honey,great stuff you pack in my old ass brain!
Have you tried aging in a vacuum environment. Similar to how meats can be marinated almost instantly by being put in a tumbling vacuum barrel and then afterwards quickly releasing the vacuum? Vacuum pulls out of the wood. Then quick release abruptly forces liquids into the wood. Then letting it sit for 2-4 weeks.
I have no idea what chemical reactions happen during aging (too far outside my field of expertise) - but I think it's fair to say that a rule of thumb for any chemical reaction is that it will speed up with higher temperature, usually by quite a lot. So my naive logic is that a solution might simply be to DIY a hot-box out of something insulated like a portable cooler with a temperature controller and a small heater element. Then just store it at the highest temperature that is practical (ie. definitely well below the boiling temperature at least), and that should "speed up time" significantly in terms of any chemical interactions. If you insulate the bejeezus out of the hotbox (a little mylar and some old blankets would go a long way) then the heat-loss (and thus electricity cost to run continously) should be very low. Probably wise to store a device like this in a relatively fire-proof area just in case something should malfunction. Safety first :)
Aging is like making chili. You can get really fancy and professional but the one thing you can't replicate is time. Edit I am ready interested in the process though. Sorry second edit.... Would adding shaved oak into the mix during the distilling process change the flavor? I live in America and don't have a license to distill. So I'm living vicariously through your channel lol.
I curious to know, if you put the charred oak in your still or in a thumper of the flavors would transfer into the clear spirit. Mabe an idea for another video.
Not so sure about having the oak in the vapour path. I could try that for sure. I think a lot of the wood flavours are big heavy molecues ( I could be wrong there). But I did put a vid out a while back re distilling a wood aged spirit. That was interesting. It definitly didnt taste like newmake!
Just a thought, chips seem more rapid and intense, warming seems to add smooth esthers, preloading helped the caramelising from the oak... How about trying the preload and the warm/cold cycles and check the results?
New too this, but damn I don't know if I will ever get too smelling and tasting all that. Hell if I like it after diff experiments I'm drinking it. My tastebuds I think from smoking aren't going to pick up on the 34 flavors lol. Man u teaching me so much
I heat cycled a quart of apple brandy by cracking the lid and setting the jar in front of my laptop cooling fan all day while i worked. After work I sealed the jar and set it on the concrete floor to cool. Next morning the jar had a bit of a vaccuum in it. Cycled like this for a whole week. Nummy...
I found this really interesting... unfortunately I drink too much of my moonshine to allow me to test this... the thing that my whiskey is missing and I want to find a way to replicate is the peat smoke of good scotch/Irish whiskey? I have started messing with peat some essences? Just 1ml per litre at this stage but I’m going to up that? But I would rather a way of emulating this factor without essences...
If you regularly go fishing in an boat, take the cask with you as a fishing buddy..it will speed up the process and infuse a traditional nautical flavour ….it will also encourage you to do more fishing trips
I am a master distiller with 8 Shires Coloniale Distillery, Williamsburg, VA. I have my own lab where I have about 100 experiments with aging of all kinds. The more toast on the wood, the richer the color and better the flavors. It's not surface area. Never was. The deeper the toast into the wood, the better. But all we are talking about at the moment is making a wood extract. There is no such thing as speed aging. What goes on inside of a barrel requires constant but minimal air exchange. What is going on that creates the true magic is floral esters no different than what flowers produce. That can not be replicated in a jar nor can you speed up the process. Speed aging has been tried by all the large distilleries and all have abandoned the idea. You can't replicate the floral esters any faster. Proof I'd also a major factor in aging. You want to be between 110 proof and 125 proof. What happens if you try a higher proof of say 150? Nasty green tone tastes and much higher angles share. My lab I only test various woods to see what the flavor profiles bring. I mix oak with cherry wood or apple wood or both cheery and apple. That is all I play with. I still age an average of 4 years minimum. I toast my own wood for consistency. This is easily done in a toaster oven.
Thanks for posting. IMO, you can speed up aging somewhat by using smaller barrels. But yeah, your point is well taken. There is no instant or super-quick aging.
@@mikewilson9315 Hey Mike. We have also used smaller barrels. 5 gallon size. You can produce very decent results in a shorter period of time, but you still do not get the rich complexity of esters as you do from longer aging in larger barrels. We do use some smaller barrels for special releases where our objective is to duplicate ancient flavors. This is usually done side by side with larger less expensive releases produced in similar fashion. Smaller isn't better though I don't knock it that hard.
@@thisguy5254 Hello this guy. I never char my wood. I toast for about 20 minutes. That is usually deep enough. About 410 to 425 degrees. Char does not add to flavor. Never did. Char is only a filter mechanism. Nothing more. I use small wood shavings.
Hi Jesse did a whiskey grain wash and when put onto still it spurge and went out of control had to turn still of.What am I doing wrong ?Keep up the great work love watching your videos, Cheers 🥃
Right on, great tests dude. I've been messing with hot/cold cycling for a while and think that the biggest changes are related to pressure (positive and negative pressure) within the glass jars and not so much related to temperature, although I think temp change plays another role with the wood. By taking sealed jars of cold liquid out of the freezer and warming them up creates positive pressure in the jar and drives the alcohol deeper into the wood pores like time in a barrel. Then putting the hot liquid into the freezer creates a negative pressure within the jar and I think that pulls alcohol deep from within the wood simulating time in a barrel. I haven't played with a vacuum yet but think it may create similar results. Note that I open the jars to equalize the pressure before each high/low cycle so I get the highest possible passive pressure change.
Get yourself a vacuum chamber, I highly recommend. Pressure pot on the other hand, you can pass. It is super interesting to play with pressure using temperature and the adverse from nature (ie. Vacuum in cold pressure in hot) cheers!
Interesting. With regards to forced aging, my mind always immediately jumps to ultrasonic baths / solutions to achieve it. Essentially, just dropping an ultrasonic element into the alcohol and wood container and letting it rip. I would love to see how that compares to the warm/cold method.
Very cool experiment Jesse. I do have an idea you might want to try if you are interested. I was watching Popcorn Sutton's "the last one" and I notcied that he was mashing in with a charred white oak barrel. Have you ever thought about throwing in some heavy toasted oak cubes into your mash during the fermentation process?
I've done nearly the same process the last few batches I've made. Over oak the crap out of it for 3 weeks, placed mine in a heating duct farthest from the furnace over night and in the refrigerator during the day several times during that time. Pull the oak save for a small piece of heavily charred oak and store untill ready to drink. Pretty sure it was you that gave me the idea to do this from a previous video.
would burning oak an collecting the smoke and letting in condense in a jar create an ingredient that could help with this process, also do you think "tea baging" in a pressure cooker help maybe with the water that is used for watering down to 40%?
I have a larch tree in my garden that I used. I know it is soft wood but when I roasted and charred it and put it into vodka, it really gets a whiskey flavor. Any advice? I know it’s a soft wood but tastes great
when im doing liqueurs with fruit like blueberrys and cranberry, I add the fruit and alcohol to a large jar, heat it in a water bath till its about at boiling. then put an airtight lid on it. this gets all the air out the jar. The gas thats left behind is alcohol vapour. so when it cools the presure in the jar drops. then cycle the jar from a few days on a hot radiator to a few days in the frezer. and then repeat several times. it ages it a year in a few weeks. the low presure realy seems to help the ageing process. driving the alcohol into the fruit and pulling the flavour out. it may be worth a try with your whisky.
we always hear that whiskey does not age in the bottle, so once you remove all the wood, does esterification stop? or is there enough stuff in there to continue to age your young spirit?
Yeah this is a interesting one I have thought about a lot as well. I think you are right that in young spirit there is probably some chemical changes left to happen. Especially on short scale times that we are talking (1- 12 months "aging" and a few months in the bottle). As apposed to years in the barrel and years in the bottle. The short answer is Im really not sure. But my gut instinct is to agree.
I've heard even vodka makers 'age' their spirit somewhat, letting it sit for a few weeks. In my experience, those few weeks can help, just letting the water and spirit meld and volatiles escape helps make a much nicer drink
Iv always had the Idea of putting my new spirit in a small barrel and put the barrel into a vacuum chamber to simulate the change's in pressure that make the spirit pull into and out of the oak
one of my favrotes is to douable oak i use fresh staves for 20m days then anouther fresh set for 30 days then remove all wood for the rest of the time and let them meld toughter for 6 months + after takeing the wood out but if you get intoi them early they can be quite strong and fairly offencive to taste but others may like them as i prefer a rather melow drink in compairsion to others
Dude! Great video, this is essentially what I've been doing. I start with 2 liters clear spirit, then make up a bundle with 75 grams toasted/lightly charred chips and drop that in. At the same time I put in 3 2x2x15 centimeter charred staves. I tend to dark char just one side of those. I leave the chips for one week, then pull them and leave the staves for up to 4 months. (Whenever I think about I move the jar from a warm room to a cool room in the basement) Then pull the staves and let the product rest for at least a week. This seems to make a decent imitation of a bourbon. Folks seem to enjoy it quite a lot. On another note, a Crockpot work great for a water bath.
Yep, she is! There are a few vids over the years where she appears & he talks about the cultural differences & how they see, taste, & interpret flavors differently.
I've been doing a similar experiment here in Arizona. I am a bartender and wanted to make an oak tincture. I put wood chips of varying char level and grain alcohol and mason jar and put it in my shed outdoors to meet the heat and weather. It has been almost a year and it is going through its first Arizona summer. I have yet to try it so I'm excited to see how it comes out. The color is dark, dark, like black dark.
Now you just poke the bear...I have been thinking of doing a test like this but with 96 abv alcohol and a totally different wood profile. I don't have any white oak, but many different local trees used in wine industry. I'm going to try different ABVs, toast levels, and wood amounts. I'll let you know by patreons how that goes. Thank as usual...interesting experiments!
Great content, Jesse. You really keep us thinking. Nice to see your lovely bride putting you to the test. Thanks much, Brother Jesse! Great stuff as always.
Hey, it would be great if you could overlay what the glasses are during the tastings ... when I have to stop and start watching tasting vids like this I get lost as to which is which! Great video and super informative otherwise, thank you!
I occasionally nuke in the microwave for 3mins then sit in the fridge overnight and then let it sit back at room temperature before bottling.. taste is fuller and not peppery. Great experiment you did.
I've just started a supercharging experiment with oxygenation at the centre of it - basically I'm playing with a batch of nicely oaked (whisky style) product - which already has a tasty little smoke, biscuit, caramel and vanilla thing going on. It was a blend of product coming from mixing two products - one from a sugar wash and the other from an all grain mash (which was about 50% peated malted grain). The second gave me a whisky that was a bit too smokey - so that's why I tamed it down with the white dog. I've got an aquarium pump running air through it now via some fine bubble aeration stones. I've kept a small sample aside as a benchmark for comparison later - so I think I'll run the thing for a week and compare back to the sample of base product. Who am I kidding? - I'll likely be testing it every day - but I'll do a more formal test after a week. When I started hearing of folks supercharging the 'transformation' process, post oak - I thought - that would be inaccessible because I can't get my hands on - or want to pay for - oxygen. But then it struck me, our air has about 21% oxygen in it already - so here we go, it's worth a shot. I'll share the results and let you know if and how much it helped. I'll also run this with 43% ABV at start - and see if the aeration process might give too much share to the Whisky fairy.
I have an unlimited supply of Jack Daniels used barrel staves, my question is how many times can I reuse those staves to age my whiskey/bourbon in? Let me know of an address that I can post some of these staves you! Hopefully you could do a series of vids on this
