Great coverage on this issue, thanks Tom and Alex. Do you think there is any chance Tesla will buy out EA for example and convert their stations to use the NACS? How would the cost of doing that compare to installing the same number of new Superchargers? VW might want to be rid of the maintenance cost and the poor reputation EA has in the public eye. Tesla may want the quick expansion of their network and the addition of 350kW EVSEs as they move toward more V4 Superchargers of their own. I don't know the financial aspects so the idea may not hold water at all. What do you all think? Cheers and drive safely.
if Tesla bought out EA, it would probably be for the site only - there is no way that Tesla would use an inferior product - they would replace all the chargers. And, what would be the point of that? Well, it could be that Tesla then has very little permitting paperwork to allow charging - it's already been done...and all this would speed the installation of more SCs in many more locations...(of course , philosophically, Tesla may have problems with giving money to a company like VW, but hey-ho...)
The biggest hurdle to jump when it comes to making a new DCFC operable is the tie-in to the electrical grid. With that already done at every EA site it would be relatively simple to pull out the SigNet (et al) chargers and throw in some Tesla V3 dispensers.
It's really a bummer how little Alex understands about all of this, both from a technical standpoint and from a business standpoint as well. You tried, Tom, and for that, I thank you.
Tom, Thanks for keeping things logical and not reacting to the overt rage Alex was trying to elicit. Based on this video, I can't see that Alex is providing any value to the EV market. As a Mach-E owner, I'm thrilled that I'll be able to drive electric to more locations. EA has been so unreliable that there are places I won't take the Mach-E. I think this is a win for Tesla. They just got all of the other automakers to give them a reason NOT to do Magic Doc. I've been wondering why more Magic Doc stations haven't rolled out given how well the NY stations seemed to be working.
Alex really gets gets catty about Tesla. He's entitled to his opinion but his channel became him complaining about Musk so much that I unsubbed. I'd rather listen to professional and impartial journalists report.
@@KineticEVI subscribed to Alex's channel for (years) but eventually gave up on whatever it was in his personal life that soured him on everything, in this case, everything surrounding EV's, and unsubscribed. He seems to think that nitpicking holes in everything is an attractive trait and not the misery arse experience it is in reality. Going out of your way to be unhappy can never be a great way to find satisfaction in life and all you'll really end up doing is alienating yourself from society at the end of the day; I have an elderly neighbour like that.
Great presentation Tom. Your comments were factually based and logical. The way you presented the facts made since to me why ford and gm decided to go with the tesla connectors. I wonder if there will be a way to retrofit the connectors on existing electric vehicles to tesla’s connectors.
I subscribe to State of Charge and not Alex’s channel, but underneath the rage headlines, Alex makes some very good points. The Tesla control of the network and connector (two separate but related things) could be risky for consumers. Moreover, he is right about Ford and GM failing on the network building front, and that they were never serious about committing the money and time to building a good network in the first place. They took the lazy route and relied on EA, but they didn’t even invest in the network. It could work out but we are putting a lot of trust in Tesla to now act responsibly and also expand their network to accommodate the new users
Guy talking about 40 auto makers not being able to cooperate, and be rational, when there appears to be more conflict in his own head than in the industry. The sustainable future is no place for click bait, ranting, factless opinions, and shock value. Let's leave those channels behind as we focus on technology, cooperation and clean energy.
The biggest issue is not necessarily the connector, it's the upkeep. Tesla has been a more conscientious provider. It has maintained its stations to be up & running at a very high level compared to its competitors. So the question should be: By utilizing the NACS standard, will you also do more to maintain your properties in order to keep them consumer-ready and friendly? Then the world will definitely be a better place.
I think the main problem with EA is that it was largely done by a company that had to do it as punishment. So there was little incentive to do it right.
Tom, you made very logical points. Alex was like a kid kicking and screaming to get what he wants. The facts are the facts and you had them. Tesla’s goal is to move the world to sustainable energy. That’s why they opened up their connector in charging networked other companies. I am a Tesla owner and can see this might be an issue for me charging on road trips in the short term. In the long term I think it’s good for everyone.
Wow, listening to Alex essentially cry for 20 minutes was actually frustrating to listen to. hes stuck in his own mind and refuses to look at the situation objectively. Thank you Tom for being the voice of reason.
This guy Alex makes no sense! With his argument, Ford bowed to Good year for not making there own tires for their cars! And I can go on and on. Can't believe I use to subscribe to him.
I stopped watching Alex a long time ago, watching this reminds me why. I just don't agree with him all that much and his points are baffling. Great job Tom.
I understand what you mean, I have still watched his videos in recent times, but its getting harder and harder to do so!, he seems to have such a b in his bonnet over Tesla ! it's not funny !, I know they are not perfect & their cars are not for everybody, but from a pure practicality, get you from A to B reliably with a charging system that just works! , they are pretty hard to beat !.
Absolutely true. He's become impossible to listen to. If he still has the ID.4, he complained about it so much but somehow he hates Tesla even more. He's a bitter person who cannot be somewhat objective.
I enjoy every other video from the SOC channel. Tom is endlessly logical and clear thinking and speaking. As a previous subscriber of Alex’s, somewhere along the line, he went from fairly logical, to the flat earth thinker of for the EV industry. He wants to argue and be heard so badly, that he will find things to complain about that make no sense what so ever. Example in this chat is how he doesn’t understand why the old school automakers don’t make their own charging network. If you can’t think that one through, I think you’re in the wrong industry. You, sir, have not got your finger on the pulse of anything, much less the EV landscape.
Tom, thanks for explaining this perfectly- the car manufacturers are in the business of making cars, not gas stations. If the gas station standard changed to using a different handle, the car manufacturers had to adapt. When Alex spoke about cell phone manufacturers, it's the same argument- the USB-C standard is already in place and the Android manufacturers said ok, we'll use this charging type. Apple did similar to Tesla with a proprietary charger type for many years but the consumers pushed back and said no, they want USB-C instead. In the case of cars, Tesla won this round due to the $$ they put into the massive charging infrastructure which no other car manufacturer wanted to. This video has certainly cemented why I subscribe to Tom and not to Alex 😊
Tom with do all my respect, you don't need Alex anymore and you don't need these drama on your channel. He is constantly being negative and going to nowhere with his opinions, he is offering nothing of value except sarcasm. You should work with Kyle from Out of Spec and Sandy Munro, people with common sense. I think you posted this here to finally take a decision, and I think you already did.
Tom: "Here is why CCS didn't work and why NACA is good for Tesla owners, non-Tesla owners." Alex rebuttal: "I don't accept any of that". It seemed like Alex used to have a bit more thoughtful responses...
People seem to be forgetting the fact that superchargers are designed to charge Teslas with a standardized charge port location. I really hope that part of the deal on 2025 for non Teslas with NACS ports comes with a standard port location as well. If not, supercharger crowding will be even worse as some of these cars will make one of the stalls unusable for other Teslas to charge. There is nothing we can do about current EVs using adapters though.
I think this move is good for the industry. I also think it is good for Tesla as another revenue source. This is also in line with their stated goal of replacing ICE with EV. I jumped from 2:00 to your summary as that was as much of Alex as I could stand. I think this removes an advantage that Tesla had, but this will only hurt them when they get to the point that they cannot sell all the cars they make.
Gas cars use the same type of fuel tank opening and all the gas stations use the same pump handle. The closer electric cars approach this, the better it will be for the EV industry. How Alex cannot see it? The credit card analogy was super weak. Credit cards are all the same. The only thing different is the brand.
I used to watch Alex to get a slightly different perspective on things, until he became completely intolerable. Love your content Tom, it was always my favorite part of Alexs show.
Since this was taped, Volvo and VW have both announced that they are looking into adopting the NACS for their Nth American vehicles. Alex completely misses the point of Tesla opening up the charging standard and network. From Tesla's viewpoint, their entire raison d'être is to accelerate the swift transition to clean sustainable transportation and energy. Opening up to other automotive manufacturers could stimulate this and, (eventually), provide another revenue stream for Tesla Utility or whatever they're calling Tesla's new energy generation and storage utility company; Tesla has announced that they will be locating many more charging stations at shopping malls and they'll co-locate solar canopies with them. That adds up to a lot of juice generation and consumption if all manufacturers' EV's can charge there too. I've long thought that just as the - BOGOF or Buy One, Get One Free advertisment has become ubiquitous, so too, will SCS or Stop, Charge, Shop.
As an EV6 owner with a J1772/CCS1 system, I'm ecstatic that the Tesla NACS will now be the new standard for EV charging in the USA. Having used Tesla chargers on my brother's Model S, I can tell you it is a way better charging system. However, ALL manufacturers need to ensure that seamless plug and play works on all EVs going forward. Not to sound to harsh, but this discussion reminded me why I quit watching Alex's channel.
It was NOT an adult discussion because you behaved like a child. You refuse to accept any counterpoints as valid. You kept on interrupting Tom, your voice kept going up and down at times while Tom kept it leveled. You sound much more bitter with time. Perhaps you should take longer break to clear your head, reset, and mentally go back to your roots because I find it impossible to listen to you.
I don’t understand Alex’s opposition. And the comment he just made about smartphone companies disproves his point. Prime example, Apple designs the iPhone but buys components from Samsung and other companies to produce the it. Automakers switching NACS is a huge win for the industry overall because it introduces a standard that every EV will use, which in the long run means Tesla will likely sell more EVs because there will be much wider network of chargers. Similarly, there is only one standard for gas pumps nozzles, which allows automakers to focus on just creating good cars and not also trying build out their own fueling stations.
“This is good for EV consumers… but is it good for Tesla drivers?” Wait. Aren’t Tesla drivers EV drivers? Won’t they benefit from other networks adding NACS points and expanding the network? Y’all act like every other network is shutting down because of this and 20 million EVs will be lining up at Tesla chargers. It’s just not the case. The stunning lack of understanding in this topic while simultaneously making grandiose statements is insulting to viewers.
When AMC puts in chargers at their movie theaters, I wonder what plug they're going to use now... And if that ends up being a free charge for say AMC A-List subscribers, that might make me more willing to sign back up for A-List. Does this work with J1772? Sure, but I'd love to just get out of my car, plug in, and not have to worry about an adapter every time. Especially as more places introduce chargers, and we end up charging more at more places. Imagine a future where you stop to get dinner, and you charge for 2-3 hours. You have a doctors appointment, you charge for an hour or two. You're at work, you charge for 8 hours. You're at a movie, you charge 2-3 hours. You're out shopping, you charge for 2 hours.
Alex please ... these big car manufacturers are NOT in the business to create infrastructure of any kind. Question: did they assist in making gasoline pumps and stations around the world? Answer no. So why would you expect them to now do this? It is not good business for them. ND. (no disrespect)
Tom, you are quite right in suggesting that the followers of your channel and Alex’s channel might be different. Some years ago. I used to follow E for Electric but soon found myself in strong disagreement with Alex and commenting on that to such a degree that he asked me to unsubscribe which I did. Following that I still came across him as Sandy Munro was having discussions with him on various subjects for a period of time - thankfully that seems to have stopped now. I still found Alex to have strong opinions with incomplete information. On his channel arguments were portrayed as ending with a difference of opinion with either position being equally plausible. Generally speaking, I found Alex to be talking as if he was a technical expert when he clearly was not. To make matters worse, his videos frequently employed “click bait”. I am generally the easy-going type, but I could not tolerate Alex. In the end, I don’t consider him to be a person of integrity. I am a long-time subscriber of your channel. I generally have no comment to make beyond a well-deserved thank you for researching this or that and reporting your findings. I have never had occasion to point out some obvious flaw in your reporting. To the matter at hand for this video. My first reaction when I heard about the agreement with Ford was surprise. Clearly, the supercharger network represented a huge competitive advantage (a so-called financial moat) for Tesla. Making a significant portion of this network available to Ford gives up that competitive advantage. When Tesla (Elon) explained why they had agreed to this - it accelerated to move toward sustainable transportation - it all became clear. This was Tesla acting with integrity on their mission instead of trying to leverage the advantage that Tesla had gained by striking out alone and building out this charging network first. If Ford or GM has built out a charger network, I am not sure that they would be willing to share it as easily. I expect it will not be too much longer before we see FSD being licensed to other manufacturers. FSD will revolutionize the transportation industry. Although it also represents a financial moat, there is too much at stake (lives saved) that it would not be licensed to others. Failure to do so would, IMO, result in regulatory action to make it available to all EV manufacturers.
It seems, contrary to Alex's opinions, that this is good for Tesla owners. It likely means much more adoption of NACS charging sites, increasing accessibility, especially in currently less served areas.
My personal opinion is that Tesla is the only one doing it right, they are putting a LOT of chargers in vs a few. I believe the BBB Bill only requires 3 Charger per location. That is just not acceptable to me. It should be min 10 or more per location (yes I know there is a lot involved). We need setups in places like Rest Stops or like Gas Stations on the highways that have dozens of chargers. I think charging is going to get worse before it get better. One take away from this is that even if EA and the others change their connectors to NACS they still will have the same issues that they are having due to the implementation of the CCS Standard. That to me is really what needs to be addresses ASAP.
I don’t agree with Alex. I mostly charge my Tesla at home. I bought my Model 3 because Tesla is the leader & will still be around in 10 years. The Supercharger’s are just the icing on the cake.
Exactly what I was going to say! No one out, there is complaining that the gas nozzle is the exact same at every gas station everywhere… That’s just what we are used to, it should be no different with EV charging. I think the huge problem here is, it’s because Tesla made it, and it’s so much better. If ChargePoint would have made this connector first, and it was so great, everybody would be mad too… But in this instance, I think non-Tesla fans get butt hurt over anything Tesla does because they can’t except the fact that Tesla makes a good product. Tesla does not equal Elon. There are hundreds if not, thousands of other people who work for Tesla, who are likely the mastermind behind a lot of what is going on, but it’s always blame Elon for everything… It’s getting old.
The ultimate goal needs to be just that. We should be able go to any charger and simply charge. I have no problem with putting my card in the slot and charging. It doesn’t need to be overly complicated.
Having actual working plugs for everyone is what is important.... Tesla keeps making more and more stuff. We will be fine. Read Tesla's mission statement and it all makes sense. I am a Tesla owner and I have the spark EV ... Alex says something is "so easy" to just "copy".... It takes a lot of people working, that is a hard thing. Pulling permits at thousands of locations and then installing. Man, the auto companies are into making cars, not a change to the industry. That has been obvious for the last 30 years since ev1/impact.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney his Channel has a different audience - more of entertainment rather than information based. He did(does?) have a nice sense of humour, but his unhidden dislike of anything Tesla almost always goes into misinformation territory. He certainly holds a grudge for long... now VW joined his dislike category. Not much of a first adopter mentality he claims to have.
Tom always love your take on the whole "State of Charge", I found this video hard to watch due to Alex's reductive reasoning. The simple case is the whole industry adopting a standard is good for everyone, including Tesla users. If other charging networks adopt the NACS as well it means Tesla drivers can use these DC fast chargers with better interoperability and with better reliability without adapters. Even just the ability to rock up to work/hotel/friends house and use the same level 2 chargers. I would love to hear more on your take of the importance of level 1 and 2
As a side effect has it gone unnoticed that ALL the non-Tesla chargers will now also have NACS making it way more convenient for Tesla owners wanting to charge at non-Tesla chargers (not certain how many would want this though)
Alex has an axe to grind. Sad he is arguing for the argument sake. Tesla owner loosing advantage opening up supercharger only if no new ones are being build from this point forward. Also, think outside the box, why should Tesla make EV forever? Owning the charging network for all EV, integrate power delivery system with MegaPack & arbitrage power could be much more lucrative than EV manufacturing.
The automakers didn't make this switch because of the connector. They did it because of the overall crappy charging experience on EA, EVgo, Chargepoint, etc. In terms of reliability and availability. If EA had an experience equal to Tesla with the CCS connector, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The connector itself was only a small part of that.
This 💯, the CCS network operators are to blame, if they would have offered an ok experience this whole discussion would have never happened in the first place.
GM and Ford do not want to accelerate the transition to Electric Vehicles that is why they haven't and don't want to build there own charging networks, doing so would only accelerate their own demise! But now they see that if they don't have charging available they are in even deeper trouble because the tipping point is already past so the only option left is to join in with Tesla.
Can't thank you enough for running this discussion on your channel. After listening to Alex Guberman I vividly remember why I unsubscribed to his channel E For Electric years ago. The man has oppression syndrome beyond belief. As a Tesla Model Y owner I champion the move. It's just a first step as the Tesla software does not come with the NACS plug. The other dispensing manufactures will have to figure it out on their own. In regards to a so called "Monopoly" for Tesla I don't think that will happen. These other vehicle manufactures are smarter than that.
Tom is right that the advantage to Tesla is that they no longer have to continue to retrofit the “magic connector.” The down side is that, when those thousands or millions of other EVs start using their network, they become the new EA because they have to now ensure that lots of non-Tesla EVs also have the same experience as Tesla EVS. HINT: They wont.
Alex seems really tone deaf during this. The whole point of Tesla doing this is to accelerate the transition to EVs. If we have both CCS and NACS, it will take a lot longer the transition as it will be harder to build charging infrastructure for two connectors. There are also some people that will never buy Tesla and want an EV that is easier to charge so this will benefit them. While this won't have a major impact on Tesla owners, it will be helpful to EV owners at large as Tesla will be able to make more money to allow them to install more changers and build out the network for everyone.
One should never have regrets doing the right thing. CCS totally sucks. Apart from being bulky and cumbersome the real problem is that you have a 50/50 chance of it working. The design, components and reliability of CCS are just horrible.
The manufacturers never wanted to be involved in energizing cars. Very happy over the past 100 years to build a fuel tank and tell you what kind of fuel to use.
As a Tesla owner I've owned both a CHAdeMO and a CCS adapter and charge with both. I admire the perseverance of those forced to use those connectors. The Tesla connector is so elegant that charging is not a chore. As other EVs flood Tesla supercharger Tesla will add more stations and chuckle all the way to the bank.
Alex is wrong saying all the legacy car makers had so much money, because all of them went bankrupt (except Ford) and had to be bailed out by the government. Alex wants to replay the past, rather than look at the current situation. North America SHOULD HAVE a single standard, that's the best thing for everyone (customers and manufacturers).
I agree with you Tom, I think the whole industry really stands to benefit from this switchover. And there are so many more teslas on the road now than other vehicles ... and the switchover will take a couple of years that there should be time for more chargers to get built out. Looking forward to the electric future!
To the Apple and Android comparison. Let's not forget that Apple did that exact thing when they went to Samsung to buy their OLED displays. Was that admitting defeat? I think not.
@@stefanfleer6219 I know that. But Apple does use an OLED display developed by Samsung. Using hardware from another manufacturer doesn't admit defeat. It actually strengthens brand loyalty.
I don't know what Alex is trying to argue. He seems to be all over the place as to what kind of point he's trying to make out of except defending his love for Tesla. Alex failed to understand that having NACS an industry standard is a huge win for North American EV consumers. Tesla in long run is a win. Tesla is also an electric company. They can continue to build more supercharging stations, not to menton EA, chargepoing and EVgo will include NACS plug. Tom seem to be the intelligent one on this debate. Thanks Tom for keeping it real. Alex is definitely annoying to watch and hear him speak. For sure i am NOT going to sub his channel.
Alex doesn't seem to have a clue how all this works to be going off on a rant of this level. This has never been about the connector, it has been about 100's of manufacturers all believing they know better than everyone else making some piece of the puzzle 'better' and the software and the interface to the cars is a complete mess
I don't ever really take anything Alex says seriously anymore. I've seen enough of his videos to tell that his blind hatred of Elon Musk seems to contaminate most of his rhetoric regarding Tesla. He seems more interested in discrediting Elon Musk than he is in providing current/prospective EV owners with any useful information or analyses.
I agree with you Tom. This is an excellent development for all EV owners. One additional benefit for Tesla owners… NACS will be added to public chargers outside of the Tesla network to accommodate Tesla, Ford, GM, Volvo, Rivian... etc. Doing so provides even more Tesla charge locations (without adapter). This is a big advantage for Tesla owners! Now that Rivian is moving to the NACS plug, I wonder if Teslas will have access to their future ‘adventure network’ chargers at national parks?
Good discussion, though two important points not covered. 1) What does this mean for all the J1772 EVSE's? These will be a a causality of this also, even if the focus is better DC fast charging. And 2) How is the parking going to be handled at the Tesla SuperChargers when they open up to all vehicles? Currently the cords are too short (as you know with your Lightning), and only a few parking sports can really work at each station for non-Teslas - or other spots will be blocked. Is there a solution to this in the works?
With SAE announcing that they're going to turn NACS into an actual standard, does that take a lot of the wind out of Alex's argument that control of the connector would be held by a single company?
This is good for me as a Tesla owner/consumer of an older Model 3 without CCS adapter compatibility. In the future one of my longer winter trips will be getting three more DC charging stations. My 140mile gap will soon have four 25 mile gaps. I expected those would all be CCS charging ports but now I feel confident they will include NACS connectors also. This change probably saved me $400 to get the adapter retrofit. I also don't like being stuck with Tesla cars but I wouldn't have considered CCS only cars previously due to poor CCS experiences. Now my brand options are open and I just like how this change helps open up competition for both charging and the cars. It probably will mean some wait times at superchargers in the short term but I bet Tesla manages that by raising prices at busy superchargers for non tesla cars. There are pricing tools they can use to manage site overloding.
Mr. Guberman, you sound like you're completely clueless on this one. This battle IS NOT between GM, Ford, Rivian, and soon, the remaining auto makers. It's between the charging companies. Your last comment about charging your Android phone on a non-Apple charger was simply ridiculous. Ever hear of Qi wireless charging? Just making such a comment was an admission of your defeat AND that you have little idea with what's going on here. Bottom line, Ford and GM don't want to compete with Tesla to see who can make the best electric charger network, just who can make the best electric car. We need a North American Standard with the NACS connector or better. Tom won this one hands down.
Because NACS is now an open standard, charging equipment makers are also adopting the plug. This should prevent Tesla from becoming a charging monopoly. Sure, the current CCS networks' issues go beyond the plug shape, but as more cars can charge on the Tesla network, via an adapter in 2024 and natively in 2025, I'm hoping this pushes the CCS networks to fix their problems and become viable competitors in the charging space. EA, EVgo, Chargepoint, others are also announcing adding NACS to their stations. None of this matters if cars can't charge, if the upstream problems still persist.
Adopting Tesla connector is a great move for everyone, thanks Tesla !!! Regarding Alex… I think he was too stubborn arguing why not the big names did not develop their own standard as Tesla did … the big player made a smart move here, period. NACS is also good for our Nation we all should be proud of what Tesla has accomplished so far … Kudos to all … Last but not least, thank you for your educational contribution !!!!
WOW! For a guy with his own EV channel, he truly seems clueless. He whines about how bad CCS is and doesn’t understand why everyone wants to switch to NACS. YOU MADE YOUR CASE? You rambled on and contradicted yourself numerous times. Smartest thing US manufacturers could do.
Alex did not show well in this, IMHO, and appeared to be arguing over little. Both Tesla/NACS and CCS/SAE use CCS protocols, which is why it is so easy to just add handles of different varieties on your charging stations. Tesla is so very clearly a more elegant design, and the idea behind how Tesla charges allows for lighter weight cords, it seems to me. If Tesla had allowed everybody to use Tesla's elegant design years ago, we'd all already have it. A Tesla charging station appears to negotiate a charge in about six seconds, normally. I'm afraid we might be mistaken expecting that to happen when all the other cars start showing up at Tesla stations in 2025 or whenever, because it will be the same problem we have now with CCS; namely, that there are just too many slightly different ways to negotiate CCS standards at the vehicle end of it. We'll hear complaints that Tesla's no better because it is taking just as long to negotiate as Electrify America takes, or maybe somebody will make the same mistake Hyundai made with its protocols, which mistake caused CCS/SAE equipped Tesla stations to be useless to them. It's enough to almost make me buy a Tesla. Almost.
Wow. Alex is all ego and nothing else. I have an Ioniq 5 and this is cool news to me. Better consumer experience is the most important thing. Not stressing about "bowing down" and shit lol.
If you have watched E for Electric very much you already know that Alex has a bias against Tesla.....If you start with that bias, you're going to be trying to point out how Tesla has fucked up no matter how strong the argument is against you...Thats what you got in this debate...
Alex dismisses the stock price and the benefits to Telsa. He says he just cares how it works for consumers, then admits it is good for consumers but then asks the question, is this good for Tesla? That doesn't make any sense.
