I was a Pontiac dealer tech when these were new. Intermittent stall complaints were a constant problem. I was even sent to a special class that trained us what to check and parts to change. I still have the 40 page pamphlet that was issued. Transmission were another huge problem, and 100's of service bulletins to address changes and updates. Disabling the TCC solenoid to stop the stalling, will overheat the trans and burn it up. Instrument clusters also an issue. Honestly these were a nightmare for the owners, but I made a boat load of money on them.
@@drozcompany4132 Yeah, it loads up the converter near it's stall speed. Like when you hold the brakes in gear and floor the gas, creates a ton of heat. Seen plenty of burned up trans due to this. Now they set codes when it sees slip speed too high. But does it really matter? Most of these have been scrapped. or on they way to the scrap yard.
Amen. In 125K miles: 5 transmissions Spark box Airflow sensor Crank sensor Steering Rack 3 Instrument clusters AC compressor Drivers seat belt (took 3 months to get a part) Power seat Power Antenna I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff My last ever GM car
This was one of the best engines GM made at the time. 200,000 was not uncommon if the timing chain was replaced. The only frequent problem I saw with them was timing chain failure when they exceeded 100k miles. It would sometimes clog up the oil pick up if the pan wasn’t removed and cleaned out. The water pumps were super easy to change. It was a LOT more reliable than the previous gen distributor equipped version. As you stated, the 3800 was even better.
My daughter had the Series III engine. A lot of changes to address the Series II shortcomings. Namely, the use of plastic elbows in the cooling system. This indeed is a very accessible engine and won't break the bank! Parts are plentiful/cheap!
i think the plastic elbows were used in series III as well, i thought i remember doing elbows on a friends 2004 grand prix, either way changing to the metal elbows are fairly cheap and easy. the biggest improvement in the series III getting rid of the plaster intake that was such a headache. they went back to aluminum. even that job isnt too bad. the 3800 is a great engine.
@@andrewdonohue1853 I’ve done both of those jobs on my wife’s 2003 Monte Carlo. Took about 45 min to replace the plastic plenum and about the same for the coolant elbows. I discovered the metal elbows and was excited to see that they were only about $5 more than the OEM plastic. Easy to work on, and was a pretty reliable engine.
My 2004 3800 was the worst engine I ever owned(I'm 60). Coolant leaks,misfires,left me stranded twice. It was the only car i own that left me stranded.I've never owned anything but Chevys.
@@shawnmcculley2995 yeah probably a bad one.another issue I had was the ignition module that was located under the coil packs.i went through a couple of those.also burned oil. I bought the car at 54,000 miles.I sold it with around 160,000. As crazy as it sounds it's the car I owned the longest of any I had.
I’ve had 2 vehicles with these. A 89 Olds 88 and an 88 Olds 98, both with the Pre-Series 1 3800s, and I loved them. One was my great grandmothers, the other a $500 pickup from marketplace with 120k miles. Neither one of them ever gave me any issues at all. They weren’t exactly “fast” cars/engines but I remember them being rather smooth rather responsive and free revving engines. Any 3800 powered vehicle is my second recommend cheap, reliable transportation.
the L67 supercharged can be cheap, reliable fun too. a PCM tune, colder plugs, thermostat, and pulley swap and your on your way to another 25+ hp over stock. still get 22+ MPG
My mom had a 1985 Buick park avenue with the 3.8, you are right about mass air and egr valves going bad! It eventually got to the point dad kept an extra one of each in the trunk! Other than that the 85 still had a GM HEI distributor that loved to eat ignition modules like the Cookie Monster loves to eat cookies! Still it was a great car though, mom got it in 89 and drove it until 99 when the original owner bought it back, never left us stranded either it would always make it home!
My 1989 Pontiac Bonneville LE was an excellent reliable car and it did get 30 mpg on the highway or climbing up to a 10,000 foot mountain pass! The styling was really beautiful, before GM starting adding on tons of ugly body cladding.
We had one of these engines in an '87 Cutlass Ciera; had a timing chain installed at about 150k and a couple of mass air flow sensors. Gave the car away with 260k and no other problems, no oil consumption or leaks. Great Car! Do a video on the Ford 3.8 and see how that stacks up.
Thank you for sharing. It thought it was informative. I have the 3800 Series II and a 3800 Series I in a Toronado. What you say is true about the engine. I like the fuel economy, reliability, and ease of repair as I do most of my own. I have learned a lot on the engine. Thank you sharing and hope you share more of the Ninety Eight.
I had a 1987 Bucik Electra with the 3.8 and drove it for over 200,000 miles with almost no issues and 27 mpg. Great engine. Mine developed a top end tick around 150000 miles and my mechanic told me not to worry so I just let the engine tick until I sold the car.
I had an 86 Grand Am Se (3.0l v6, cousin). Had the water pump start leaking, the solenoid issue, maf was replaced as well. I was 16 and first car, total beater when I bought it but I learned how to fix things, get it running and in the end it turned into an almost reliable car. I had it around 1994, with 86k when I got it, sold a few years later with over 110k. Was still running ok and looking ok when it went onto its new home, that said i feel like once we moved into the new millennium I just did not see those at all anymore. At least here in metro Detroit with bad roads, winters, etc.
The buick 3.8 was put into the holden commodore in Australia during the early to mis nineties.I had one in a company car and it went hard and was very strong but it was extremely harsh, noisy and would vibrate to the point that it became a very uncomfortable car to drive.I could not wait to get out of it.I believe they eventually put oil filled engine mounts in order to dampen the vibrations.
I have a 1991 VG ute and it's done over 400,000kms and still doesn't use a drop of oil or blow any smoke. It does have other signs of being tired but no sign of stopping anytime soon. Completely agree they are rough though.
Adam, great review of the 3.8. To add to your information, the mass airflow sensor used on these engine was manufactured by Rochester. The reason the tap test will reveal a faulty unit is the circuit that controlled the hot film fixed temperature would overheat and open intermittently. This was partially caused by turbulence over the film which the Venturi and honeycomb grate would virtually eliminate. BUT, Rochester also didn’t have robust enough heat syncs on the circuit board, causing soldered joints to fail. Vibration would open the circuits, thus the stumble and stalling. Cars that live in hot climates will experience this more often. Some aftermarket companies identified the problem and corrected it. The EGR sticking problem occurs from carbon build up on the EGR pintle. There are aftermarket companies that offer a product called “Clean Screen”. It’s a replacement base gasket with a screen over the inlet opening. The screen catches carbon before it gets into the valve. Unless the car is driven only on short trips, the screen will get hot enough to fry the carbon and turn it into ash, which will harmlessly pass through the EGR valve. Most of the time if the valve sticks, it will be in a partially open position, or enough carbon on the seat where the pintle rests will keep it from sealing when closed. Rough idle, stalling when cold, and stumble on light acceleration are tell-tell signs. Hope this information helps someone.
Best solution is to replace your EGR gasket with a homemade gasket with no port openings, so it blocks everything off. Let all the exhaust go out the tailpipe where it belongs.
@@johneckert1365 John, car makers worked hard to get rid of EGR systems because they were troublesome. I don’t know of any modern engines that still have it. So you are correct. The challenge with what you suggest is twofold; EGR’s purpose is to lower peak combustion temperatures. Without it, cylinder temperature is higher. This could result in pre ignition or “spark knock”. Even running higher octane fuel may not prevent it from occurring. Secondly, EGR systems like on this 3.8 are electronically controlled. The PCM commands EGR, then watches for operating changes in the engine to confirm it. When it doesn’t see those, it will set a trouble code and turn on the check engine light. Depending on where the vehicle is located, if there’s emission testing, a check engine light would most likely keep the car from passing.
@@cadillacguy1890 Yes the EGR system is there to lower combustion temperatures, but for emission purposes only, not to prevent pinging (spark knock). Blocking the EGR ports on this 1986 (pre OBD II) will not trigger the check engine light. Yes, unhooking the EGR control solenoid would trigger the light but that's not what I suggested. Also most states/counties that require emissions testing don't test pre OBD II vehicles, making anything 1995 & older open to improvements.
@@johneckert1365 John, while you are correct, the EGR isn’t on the engine to control detonation, the higher cylinder temperatures from lack of EGR could lead to it. A common symptom of malfunctioning EGR systems is pre-ignition, detonation or spark knock, especially in engines with some miles on them where there can be carbon deposits in the combustion chamber (piston tops, valve faces). I’ve talked to many techs who’ve reported MIL illumination from clogged/ malfunctioning EGR, mostly on later model (1990’s) vehicles. The computer knows when it’s opening the EGR. It will look for slight change in engine RPM and mass airflow readings, as some air entering the intake is not coming through the fresh air intake. It’s just something to be aware of. As far as doing away with EGR, virtually every manufacturer agrees with you. Exhaust gas is dirty, hot, and doesn’t like to have fuel droplets in suspension. Introducing it into the intake where you also have positive crankcase ventilation thus oily vapors creates a soupy mess and build up of crud over time, especially with port and direct injection, where there’s no longer any fuel to act like a solvent to help clean it up passing through it.
@@cadillacguy1890 I'm not aware of any manufacturers that used MAF and engine speed for EGR diagnostics. Monitoring for a steep increase in MAP seemed to be the preferred method on systems with no dedicated differential pressure sensor or temperature sensor. To a point made earlier, I recall Honda still using a traditional EGR system within the last few years on it's 3.5L. Just about all on-road diesel engines made in the last twenty years in the US also use a somewhat traditional EGR system.
You're 100% correct. I've only driven old Buicks since I've gotten my permit and drivers license and one Mercury Sable (If you buy a Taurus/Sable get it with the DOHC Duratech 3.0L) and I gotta tell ya. These 3800 engines are some of the best engines you can have. Since high school I've owned a combined total of 15 of them, still got 2 and as long as you keep the engine and transmission oil clean these things just keep on going. Although the series 1 I'd have to agree is the best, neither of those engines from that engine family are bad. Unless you get one that was constantly rammed at 80mph with only half a quart of oil in it... and even that's debatable with these engines
Back in the late 1970s, I had a friend with a Pontiac Sunbird that had a V6. It vibrated a lot more than I expected. Kind of like the 4 cylinders of the time. I had a Ford Falcon with the inline 6 which ran pretty smooth in comparison.
@@paulpeterson4311 True if they were maintained. However, the Chrysler slant 6 had a better intake manifold setup(at least better than the Falcon). Ford cast the intake manifold into the head in such a way that it is hard to get the same mixture to all cylinders. The Falcon sixes tend to idle rough due to this.
Most inline 6es are smooth and indestructible. Especially the Chryslers, which use less main bolts but a well balanced crankshaft that's super durable.
I've had a number of Buick V6 engines from new. Our first was a odd fire 76 231 in a Buick Century 4 door. It was rough, slow and ate timing gear and chains about every 15 thousand miles from new. The next was a LC9 3.2L in a 79 Chevrolet Monza. This engine was smoother but suffered sludge even with 3k oil changes. Suffered rod failure at 37k miles. Next was a LK9 3.0L in a 1985 Century. This engine suffered head gasket failure at 48k. After that I swore off GM until 1999, when I bought a new Oldsmobile eighty eight with a 3800. Much smoother and powerful than the earlier V6's. But not trouble free. Had to replace the plastic intake manifold, plastic coolant line and plastic fuel lines.
My first car was a 1985 Pontiac Grand Am with the 3.0L MPFI V6 and 3 speed auto, which looks very similar to this engine. I bought it from the original owner back in 1997 at 158,000 KMs and drove it until 2004 at about 250,000 KMs. The engine had bee rebuilt about 1000 KMs before I purchased it, so I didn't have to touch any engine internals and the timing gear was fine. The catalytic converter had been removed and the EGR valve bypassed, and am not sure if this was done due to them failing or when the war was newer, following oldschool pollution control bypassing, as the original owner was an an oldschool car guy with no knowledge past about 1978. :) It would rev up and down when transitioning from fast to slow idle and sometimes stall, so at the recommendation of the engine rebuilder I replaced the MAF and the PROM, but with no change in the problem, and being I was 17-18 and still learning about both cars and discerning good from bad mechanics, I took a lession from Click and Clack and figured I was just making his boat payment, so I moved on. It would built up carbon in the throttle body and idle air control, which eventually lead to stalling, but annual cleaning solved that. One of the things I always wondered about with the idle surge was when the idle air control was unplugged and then plugged back in, that first restart would transision smoothly between fast and slow idle, then sucessive restarts would surge again, so mayve it was the IAC solenoid? Interesting enough, a K&N airfilter solved the stalling. I replaced the electronic ignition module in the first couple months I had the car, replaced it again in about 2003, the replacement MAF failed in 2003, the water pump leaked in 1998, the alternator seized and the plastic fan caugh fire on the highway so replaced that in 2000, that alternator failed again in 2002 so I had it rebuilt, the starter died in 1998, the transmission lock up solenoid failed in 1999, and replacement MAF failed in 2003. For a time it went through anual fuel pumps (not engine related) but an AC Delco pump solved that. It would get about 20 MPG US in the city and upwards of 30 MPG US on the highway.
My grandpa had one in his 88 delta 88. Threw a connecting rod at 65,000 miles in 1991. Warranty was only 60,000 miles and he said he was too smart to get an extended warranty when he bought it
That is COMPLETELY unusual, and he must have done something stupid to that engine to get it to toss a rod at 65,000 miles. This just does NOT happen unless something severe has been done to it by the owner
Awesome video. Very interesting. I'm in Australia and I own a 1989 Holden Commodore it has the 38000 V6 Buick engine. Awesome engine. Mine has done 460.000 kms . And still goes Awesome. I love learning about these engines.
they are great engines but i never got 30 MPG on a series II 3800 i have own many. i cant comment on MPG from pre series II. i always get mid 20's from my 3800's.
@@andrewdonohue1853 , likely these were designed/calibrated to run on ethanol free fuel, even though they will run on 10% ethanol fuels. Ethanol usually lowers mileage, less energy per gallon than straight gasoline. If you took it easy(ie kept cruising 55-60MPH) on highway my RWD Impala 3.8L chevy v-6 used to get around 28MPG, so i can envision these lighter FWD 3.8's getting 30MPG. My Impala would never get that with the 10% ethanol.
@@daveondre4892 We used to be able to achieve 27mpg with our S10 2.8 "B" liter engine with no alcohol in fuel. Now were lucky to get 24 or 25 especially if were hauling a 1,000# load.
@@frederickbooth7970 ,the alcohol is a disaster for older stuff. My Mom's 89 Caprice(5.0L v-8, throttle body injected) has a substantial 'lean misfire' with 10% ethanol. Non ethanol gas(added half a tank few years ago on a rode trip), idled so smooth you would not even know it was running..
Electronics aside, which plagued so many GM vehicles of the time, the only problems the 3.8 had pre 3800 were burned valves because they were run so lean. On RWD cars, in very heavy snow and subzero weather, ice and snow build up on the exposed oil filter would starve the mill, and many have lost their engines that way.
The RWD buick 231cuin oil pumps were garbage in any weather. At least there were accessible from front of engine and cheater plates helped them make a little more pressure and avoid the dreaded collapsed lifter situation in hot weather.
I had an '87 Bonneville for 19 yrs and 276,000 miles. The Timing chain was the biggest weakness, I replaced mine 3x. Overwise a very dependable driveline. I still drive an '99 Lesabre as a work car , now at 189,000 miles. I have owned 7 C/H cars with the 3.8 or 3800 and wish the engine was still in production. All combined, I have close to 800,000 miles of good experience with this engine. Todays High Feature V6 is overly complex and gets the same mileage.
I had a '87 3.8 L Oldsmobile 88 Royale. It had the fastest engine in an Olds that year. The 3.8 in those years were blow by 80,000 miles. My Olds was on its 2nd engine, and it has about 50,000 miles. The reason the 3.8 were gone by 80,000 miles was the timing chain sprocket. These sprocket were coated in Teflon by GM, in order to make them quiet. So I bought the car, and change the timing chain. I got 200,000 miles out of the car. It had a 4 speed hydromatic. Olds hadn't had a 4 speed hydromatic since the 50's. The car was fast. I never knew how good 4 speed hydromatic. Although I had a 4 speed hydromatic in a '57 Cadillac. It was fast for its day even though it had 300 hp & weighted 5,000#. Both cars I had to replace the 4 speed hydromatic. I had the Cadillac replaced in '68 for $450, and the Olds in '95 for $2,500. I drive a Toyota now, and like it.
My 3800 powered 94 Regal was most reliable car Ive owned. Im a big gm critic but the 3800 is shining star even today. Powerful, fuel efficent, and reliable its what you want on an engine. The 4t60e transmission is a different story. Gm programmed it to upshift as fast as possible for better mpg. 4th gear at 40. With the 3800s torque this was fine and it was a great transmission for that car, but on my 95 quad4 powered achieva it didnt have the torque to handle 4th gear at 40 and it would literally buck like youre driving a stick and let the clutch out too fast. Why gm programmed it the same is beyond me, or maybe mine was flashed wrong at some point. The achieva was available with the 3.1 v6 afterall.
Interesting! I have one of those Rover V-8's in my Land Rover. I knew they were from Buick and an older design however I did not know this engine was derived from that engine! Love the videos man!
I had the supercharged version from 1995 in a Park Ave. Replacement superchargers were $6,000.00 here in Canada. When the replacement one went (around 2010) I travelled to Cleveland where I could exchange mine for a home rebuilt unit for $500.00. Did the install myself, took 8hrs in total. Shop time around 5.5hrs. Great running motor but slow to warm up (had it check by mechanic) and would not shift into 4th until around 50MPH. And the transmission was starting to lose the crispness of the 1-2 shift. And then I hit a deer and it was all over. I think my mechanic was more distraught than I. The car, not the motor, was a money pit.
I have a 1986 Toronado with that V-6 engine and you were right on the mass airflow sensor! Tapping on them with a screwdriver handle will cause them to stutter. Also in 1988 I believe, the timing gear went out and I replaced it with a metal gear. The oil pump is in front as well so I ended up replacing the front housing while I was into it that far. The fuel pump in the gas tank went tits-up and was a major pain because I had to remove the fuel tank to get to it. If GM had put a removable panel in the trunk to access the thing it wouldn't have been so bad. Leaking fuel injectors were replaced but that was a NICE car! I still have it but it is parked out next to the barn now. The 1986 Toronados have the electronic dash clusters and I can read all the OBD codes via the radio keypad! Mine came with the Touring Package which included aluminum wheels, different steering rack and I was told, a different camshaft. I still love that car!
I had an 86 Toro that was fully loaded with the CRT touch-screen in the dash, Bose sound system, and every other available option. What a car that was for the era... 👍
I have a 86 Toronado too, 73k miles on dash. It's all original and it's stalling when in low rpms, I feel like it happens when the rpms dip below a certain threshold while decelerating. I have yet to try OBDI
@@entity49Great to hear from a fellow 86 Toronado owner. Do you have access to a factory shop manual? The manual has great flow charts, etc. If I remember correctly. It is easy going through the diagnostics.
@@hinspect Nothing like that sadly, I just have the original owners manual (the non specific universal olds 86 manual) and an Olds showcase book with all the trims & various car models they sold during 86 lol.
Timing gear. Did it at 100k with gm phenolic set. Then again at 180k with same failure. 2nd time it got a Napa all metal set! Not a bad job to do really. Had to be the slowest power windows ever made on those cars though!
Is the MAF in this car a hot film, or a hot wire? I thought hot film sensors didn't come around until the early 90s? The little trim panel at the back of the engine cover really dresses up the engine bay. Everything is quite tidy looking.
Pretty good engine. The transmission, not so good. Numerous problems with it. I think that car had Multec injectors, but I could be wrong, maybe Multecs were later. Multecs didn't age very well and caused other driveability problems, some of them kind of interesting.... Such as if the engine was running terrible and you unplugged the alternator it ran fine.
I worked as a Pontiac and Olds tech when these engines were in warranty. I can vouch for the comments on the MAF sensor and TCC solenoid failing. Other issues include the crank sensor, ignition module, ignition coils, and injectors failing (occasionally in the open position). The timing chains on these do start to slack after 90-100K miles, and the OEM timing sets are junk. If you have one of these and are looking to upgrade, Cloyes does make a replacement timing set for these 3.8L engines. Cloyes produces high performance timing chains and I'm pretty certain their replacement for the 3.8 comes with metal gears.
I agree . I’ve never replaced ANY timing gear on ANY vehicle with the factory plastic gear if there was a metal replacement available. They said that the plastic was to reduce noise. But I’ve never noticed a real difference. And reliability increased dramatically.
I absolutely love this engine. I daily drive a 1988 Cutlass Cruiser Brougham with the 3.8 and It's a very dependable engine, love the raspy sound and the gas mileage. Mine have around 155k kms and I just got a all metal timing set to have mine replaced. It's been five years of trouble free ownership. The only time I took It to a mechanic was to remove the harmonic balancer bolt, which became noisy after my AC compressor seized on a road trip. All the other repairs like water pump and alternator were easily done by me. It sometimes throws the code 32 when driving gently in town. I will eventually take the EGR out and have it cleaned up.
My mother bought a new 1990 LeSabre Limited with that engine, white with red leather. That engine functioned flawlessly for her for nine years until her death. What she had hell with was the a/c part of the auto climate control. I can't remember how many times the a/c went out on that car. Other than that it was a great car on the highway and around town for her, and I loved that funky hood action...
I had the series 3. Yes, I had the coolant elbow issue. Not a big deal. However, the timing chain cover leaking was. Trying to get that balancer off was a nightmare. GM put lock tight red on the bolt. Had to get a 3/4 drive impact gun to get it off. Then force 1/4 fine thread bolts into my balancer remover. Not fun.
My Aunt got a new one in 1989. I remember it had the optional driver's air bag. When I told her how neat the air bag was, she got upset and didn't know it had an airbag and wanted to trade it for one that didn't. She was fearful of an air-bag due to all the media frenzy against them. A few months later she was hit by a speeding mustang and the air-bag popped out and she said it "probably" saved her life, even though the accident was really "minor" in my opinion. They even fixed her car and she drove it to 90,000 miles and got a new 1996 Oldsmobile Silhouette... I remember her 89 had an ice cold AC and such soft seats. Before that she had a base trim RWD 85 Delta 88 4 dr.
This engine with a "single-pin" engine reminds me of the Harley-Davidson "single-pin" engines. The difference is, Harley made the vibration a positive thing. Thank you for clarifying the 3.8 vs. 3800 V6 engines!
i had one of those in a 1987 bonneville. it spun a rod bearing on the way home from the used car dealer. they ended up replacing the engine with a autozone reman. it ran great the rest of the time i owned it.
I have a 90 buick riviera with 85,000 miles, I've had it for a year and a half and it's been pretty reliable besides a stalling issue i had which turned out to be the crankshaft position sensor
I had an early 3.8 in a Firebird. The uneven firing was very noticeable. I bought it cheap because the cam chain and associated sprockets were so shot they were audible. The distributor was shot too, being driven at the front of the engine. Replaced everything in the front including the oil pump. I drove it about another 60 thousand miles and the chain was going again. I've always thought it was the uneven impulses that stressed the cam drive mechanism. Gave it away. What was GM thinking?
I had an 89 Riv and it had a problem with the balancer/pulley,the connecting rubber broke and it started making a noise as if the engine had blown,like a hammer. 15 years ago it was $90. for a new pulley,pretty reliable afterwards. Engine was mushy and slow though.
I have an Olds 86 Toronado, an all original 73k mile car. It has the engine in this video, the LG2 3.8l. It's amazing and drives great, the 4th gen Toro interior is surreal & over-all look is badass, but the stalling and starting issues are horrible. It namely occurs when coming to a stop/slowing down below ~18mph, the engine simply dies, tach drops to 0 rpms and the car has powered brakes & steer but it's never a real issue for safety since it happens at a low speed. Forums said this issue starts then progressively gets worse to where people have stalled on the highway.
I have had 2 3800’s…a ‘95 Series 1 and a ‘96 Series 2. Both had a plastic cooling tube elbow fail and it was an expensive repair for an inexpensive part. It would have never been an issue if they made the part of metal. Otherwise great engines.
If GM would have made the elbows metal, they would have picked some pot metal that wouldn't have outlasted the plastic ones. The bracket/block the elbows push into does tend to corrode, so it's a good idea to add some RTV behind those O-rings during installation. Today you can get aftermarket metal elbows. Of course, the curse of phenolic parts happens on a lot of other GM cars... such as the Quad 4 (later known as the 2.3 Twin Cam)... which has this ugly plastic, 5- or 6-way coolant diverter. I've replaced too many of these on the same car... including once where the part didn't even survive installation without snapping off. This part, unfortunately, has NOT been recreated in metal.
Takes me literally 20-30 minutes, and $11.99 to replace the plastic coolant elbows to new aluminium ones... "EXPENSIVE" repair? SOMEONE was ripping you off BIG time.. 🤦🏻
lg2 for flat tappet cam engine g3 for roller cam. i had the lg3. holy crap would that thing fly. same engine in the 89tta, minus the turbo and different intake manifold
The 84 (A body) and 85 versions of this engine with a distributor were not sequentially fuel injected. They didn't have the driveability issues the carb versions had but they were rather gutless by comparison. The engines equipped with the Magnivox ignition (singe coil pack) were problematic. The TCC sticking was far more an issue with the THM125c transmissions. I replaced a lot of the TCC solenoids back in those days. All of the other transmission issues you can think of belonged to the THM440T4. We were installing reman units in brand new unsold cars. I think most of the issues were worked out by 88? 89?
That was the Buick 215 cubic inch V8 Aluminium block motor from the early 60's. These powered a bunch of Land Rover / Range Rovers. This 3.8 is NOT Aluminum, not remotely the same motor, other than both made by Buick.
The 90degree banked Chevy 3.8L 229cuin was referred to as semi-even fired and the Buick based engine(i believe a 60 degree bank), you describe a similar off set crank, so IMHO the semi-even fire designation would apply on here as well. The Chevy version was a dog power wise(have one in my first car, B-body Impala) but great gas mileage and reliability.
The series 2 plastic intake was a mess I agree. I recently gifted an 02 Regal I’ve owned since ‘08 to my son and at 193k we just did the intake for the third time. Other than egregious rust the old rig still runs okay.
@@ChevyFan079 i have an 01 GTP out back rotted to pieces. it's a parts car now, not much saving it. it still runs perfectly. i have a 2003 bonneville SSEi i dont run in the winter for that reason. i happen to love the SSEi but i know it wont survive too long in the harsh winter salted roads. i park it.
@@andrewdonohue1853 The supercharged cars are a lot of fun. I had a '98 GTP and '98 Regal GS. I'd love to get one again, but it's just about impossible to find a clean one here in WI. If I ever find one, it will never be driven in winter. Salt just destroys everything, regardless of manufacturer. Hate it.
@@ChevyFan079 I have a friend that has a 2015 Subaru outback and so far it has nearly zero rust. I'm surprised how well its aged. I bought a crosstrek premium 6 speed. My Bonneville SSEi probably saw a couple winters with a past owner but it certainly hasn't seen 20, and it hasn't seen any since I've owned it. Its fairly clean but not perfect. The body is in really good shape. SSEis are quite rare around here, they didn't make many in the first place. It was a very expensive car in its heyday
@Andrew Donohue I love the look of the SSEi. Now that you mention it, I never did see many of them, even when new. I miss Pontiac a lot, by far my favorite GM division. The last stuff they made, the "G" series and even the new GTO were strangely boring looking vehicles though. Very un-Pontiac.
The electrical connector on the ignition module/coil pack can warp and then the end pink wire will make intermittent connection. It will leave you stranded and then restart later.
Oh wow...this really brought me back to my childhood...my dad had a black with red leather interior 88 Regency... I loved that car...along with Pontiac 6000 sse-i fwd
@@andrewdonohue1853 yes your right ste-6000. I always get the rearhead rest mixed up...blue with gray lower body skirts. Dual exhaust with that famous GM gurgel...❤️❤️❤️the Olds has the gurgel at idle...very minimal
@@TheKiing81 i have a 03 bonneville SSEi with the supercharged 3800..... i have done a few things to. it makes more boost then stock and makes a nice sound when you get on it (the supercharger with a "gutted air box" LOL)
Two items not mentioned. 1. Harmonic balance, the rubber separates and makes a clunking sound. 2. Crank sensor, for some reason the harmonic balancer shifts enough to break the sensor. This will happen before rubber separates.
Not sure what my Mom had but it was a 6 cylinder 1990 Cutlass Supreme. It was a great car. Engine was good and it felt heavy and handled good. The only pain in the rear was the ignition system with the added anti theft.
@@billyrayvalentine7972 The Passkey system would measure the resistance across the little pill embedded in the key... dirty contacts would make it read wrong. Best thing to eventually do with it was disable it by permanently wiring a proper value resister into the wiring.
There were two tiny white wires that went into the ignition cylinder to read the resistance of the pellet in the key. After cycling the key/cylinder so many times, those wires would break necessitating ignition cylinder replacement, or a resister wires in to permanently defeat the anti theft.
@@paulwindisch1423 those tiny white wires were 22 or 24 AWG. TINY! Cycling the key didn't cause the wires to flex or move, but changing the position of the tilt wheel did!
Hi, how did you get the engine to run with the newer ICM? I have an '87 Toronado with this engine and wanted to convert it to the newer ignition system as well, but it wouldn't start.
Man! It's clean under that hood. How many miles on that vehicle? BTW...the mass air flow sensors were a frequent idle problem on later Fords too. Both my 94 and 96 F-150s, I had to replace this sensor on both trucks. That little sensor was about $175.
As a tech,, I found the issue with Ford MAF's going bad were the pain airboxes. The edges of the boxes would cut off small pieces of the outer moldings if not reassembled carefully. The pieces would get sucked into the MAF heater and melt on it.
Not as much room in a Cutlass Cierra. My EGR went bad and was fixed to no avail. Turned out the catalytic converter was plugged which created backpressure and 'blew open' the EGR valve.
The magnet that interrupts the cam sensor signal can fall out of its home in the timing gear. Remove the cam sensor when replacing a water pump, locate, clean, and apply some RTV to the sensor magnet in the gear inside the timing case through the sensor hole. If changing the gear, remove the magnet and glue back in with RTV. If the magnet fell out, you can grind a new magnet down and place it through the sensor hole, and glue in place with RTV. Magnet is GM #25530386 for 88-90 "C" and 91-92 "L" 3800.
Hey there, I was wondering if you know of any good resources for learning how to maintain these engines. I have a '86 Buick Electra Park Ave with this engine and am about to dive into a major tuneup. Hoping to get it back on the road.
I've always loved these and the 3800 (and it's other series). Only issues I've had with the 3800 series are some of the plastic pieces breaking with age or for whatever reason 2 of the 90s regals I owned would occasionally have a noticeable lag in acceleration when putting the pedal all the way down while already in motion. Aside from that I can say the mpg is definitely not nearly as good as a modern v6 and the first regal I owned starting at 60k miles was a PITA with getting mpg that the LT1 would get without it being a v8
Do replacement timing chain set still have nylon teeth or can you upgrade to an all steel set? Can you swap an 86 MAF with an 1987? Can you swap tour 3.8 with a 88-91 3800? Have transmission kits of today included upgrades makining them stronger when rebuilt? If you want to swap a3.8 with a 3800 should the transmission be included?
Really enjoyed this, Adam! I Am on the hunt for a blue 1990 Buick Park Avenue with one of the 3800 V6 engines. Was a car my grandma owned and want to find another to have as a special Sunday vehicle. If anyone has any leads on one please let me know! I am in Massachusetts and this would be the first time I would purchase one at distance, how difficult is it to have an antique vehicle shipped from another state?
I can’t wait until you do a review and Drive on this 98 Oldsmobile. My grandparents had an 85 Maroon one. Their’s would talk if the lights were left on or if the door was open. Does yours talk?
The engines are ok, but it doesn’t matter because the transmissions are junk. I had 3 rebuilt between 95-115K. None were abused. I had the grandaddy 3.8 V6 in my 1971 Jeepster. It was rough but very dependable without all the electronic controls. The manual transmission was bombproof.
About time someone mentions the elephant in the room. Experienced a spun rod bearing at 93k miles even after meticulous maintenance. That was the nail in the coffin for GM with me.
Thoughts on GM’s 3.4 Liter used on the W Body Platform? Also, is the 3.8 you are showcasing the same as Pontiac’s version they later supercharged? Thx !
IIRC, 3.4s were used in the W-body twice... between '91 and '97 they got a gen 2 that had dual overhead cams... after 2000 they got the gen 3 in the W-body Impala. I've never seen severe issues with these 60 degree V6s... except that the early ones were dog slow. So slow, that I usually would pickup cheaper cars with the less desirable Iron Duke, rather than pay a slight premium for a used 60 degree V6. That said, the last of the breed... the 3.5 and 3.9 "High Value" V6s are pretty peppy... and I would buy them over the "High Feature" V6s which are timing chain nightmares. IMHO, the 60 degree V6s are probably about 80% as bulletproof as the 3.8/3800... but I have seen a lot of dead ones... but I'm convinced they died due to lack of maintenance and people driving them like they stole them, trying to get ever bit of HP out of them.
The first 3.4L (VIN X) was a DOHC adaptation of the 3.1L. Because it was adapted from a cam in block engine, there is still a void where the camshaft would normally fit. It has a small timing chain in its normal place, but instead of driving a camshaft, it drove the drive sprocket for the DOHC timing belt, so it had both a timing chain and a timing belt. The belt required replacement every 60,000 miles. It was a non-interference engine, so timing belt failure would not hurt the engine. It made decent power for its time (215-220 hp) and had a nice, long, flat torque curve. They were pretty reliable. The oil pump drive seal would eventually leak though. On the other 60 degree V6s, this was not a hard job, but the rear head on the 3.4L DOHC was in the way of removing the oil pump drive, so it would require rear cylinder head removal. We did overcome this by lifting ip the oil pump drive slightly, scarf-cutting a Chevy 350 distributor gasket so it could be installed around the pump drive, coating the gasket with teflon sealant, and putting the pump drive back down in place. Aside from that, the other issue they suffer is a hunger for alternators. Due to the size of the DOHC cylinder heads, the alternator could not be positioned up top like the other 2.8/3.1 engines, and was relocated under/behind the engine, next to the passenger axle shaft. This resulted in the alternators getting too hot and failing. They did have cooling ducts that ran to the top of the intake, but they still suffered a higher rate of failure than the other V6s. As far as the “Pontiac” 3800 SC, all of the 3800s were Buick engines. I believe the last true Pontiac engine was the 301 V8, or depending on perspective, the 2.5L Iron Duke. The 60 degree V6s were Chevy, the Quad4 was Oldsmobile, the 2.2L was Chevy, the 3.8/3800 was Buick, 4.1/4.5/4.9 was Cadillac, and all the Northstar derivatives were Cadillac. I think the Chevy 60 degree V6 was the last used “divisional” engine. All GM engines are corporate now.
0:50 What a dilemma. Each 90 degree pair could be perfectly balanced with one crank weight when the engine had shared crank pins, since the horizontal motion of the pistons had both paths and phases that were 90 degrees apart. The only fly in the ointment was the "machine gun" timing of the firing pattern. But, offsetting the crank pins, while it could make the engine even-firing, threw each pair off balance. As far as I know, there is no way to get both perfect balance and even firing with a V6, of any angle, unless balancing shafts are added. Yet, there are still some respectably smooth V6's without balancing shafts; maybe they have just enough crank pin offset to minimize firing irregularity and imbalance.
@@lukepokrajac1057 We had our 2.8"B"liter engine rebuilt for our 84 S10 long bed pickup. So glad we had the pistons on the engine balanced! Amazing to see how much milling had to be done to have the balance even, Had to have special weights from a high performance machinist to do the balancing as most people don`t bother balancing that size engine. We did the balancing as with the original factory assembly engine always seemed a little rough > 4,000 rpm. Now its very smooth all the way to 5,000 rpm.We use engine braking a lot on certain grades we have to travel down on that have > 17% grade.
@@lukepokrajac1057 You will be glad you did as the balancing of the moving masses of the engine makes a difference in how smooth the engine operates especially at higher rpm`s. Just hauled a ton of alfalfa this am with the truck & have it stashed in my garage until I get to unload into barn loft tomorrow. Used our 1970 C10 to pickup a FREE 16' hay elevator that another hay farmer did not want anymore. He thought the electric motor is burned will try it & find out later when I have more time to look at it.
A engineered version of the V8 even won a formula one world championship in 1966 as the Repco Brabham. Australia loved the GM 3.8 in our RWD Holdens. 🦘
That is a Olds 98? What a far cry from what I think is the peak year, I feel, being the 1970 98 with the 455. That was a 98 and after that, in the 80s, we are getting imposters. My father had a new one and got to drive it many times when 17. My car was my 68 Cougar but this 455 Olds was something else. You had to drive one. I actually keep looking for one.
The Buick 455 was quite a gem as well. Super smooth and powerful, the Olds 455 was more reliable in the long haul though. A heads up, the Olds 98s 1977 to about 1980 were awesome too. I had a 77 Olds 98 with the 403 V8...talk about smooth! and nice torque, way better milage than the 455 too.
Oh yes the olds 455 "Rocket" engine! Our old neighbor had a 69 Olds 98 with that engine. Unbelievable power & speed for such a heavy car. When Violet Gores husband passed away she had me drive her to her sons house 100 miles away from the small town we lived in. as she had never learned how to drive.Since we rode thoroughbreds at the track she was always telling us to get the Olds rocket horses to giddy up & go! That old car would go up 9% or 10% grades at 60 or 70 mph like the grades were not even there! It had a dark maroon metallic color finish & was always garaged since our small town was 1 block in from the Pacific.
@@gt-37guy6 Well that might be so but I will stick with my pleasant memory. That 1970 Olds 98 was the first ever GM for me to drive. Of course I only had my license for about 6 months so not a lot of experience other than a 1968 Plymouth Satellite wagon with a 318 and my J code 68 Cougar. That is the one car of my father's that I wish I could get my hands on. Of course the Cougar was his for 18 months and I have his 2004 pristine low mileage LeSabre the last four years.
I had an '88 Bonneville SE whose only mechanical repair before 100k was the starter at 20k, despite a front hit and run bad enough to push it into the neighbor's yard and crack the windshield. After that, the thermostat, water pump and radiator went in quick succession, followed by the fuel pump and oxygen sensor on a single long trip. The transaxle was rebuilt about 140k, and I rear ended someone at 160k. I wish I'd kept it and had it repaired, as I liked it better overall than its replacement Olds Intrigue, an objectively better car.
Great content! I had an 86 delta 88 that i loved, but I scraped it cause It was super intermittent about running poorly. I bought a 2003 impala recently for super cheap that had similar problems as my old delta 88, but I was able to use a scan tool to diagnosis the problem as a maf sensor and save this one from the scrapper. My question is- if I bought one of these 88-91 cars is there a scan tool for them? I found an 89 with over 200k I can get for pretty cheap that runs great(gmas car, perfect shape) but if something goes wrong is there someone who can scan it and make a diagnostic or am i going to have to throw parts at it? Thanks dude! Love your channel! these cars deserve as much love as any other classic car.
GM had the best on-board diagnostic system of any manufacturer by a mile in the 80's, but the scan tools able to see the enhanced data are likely getting a bit scarce.
Do you have anything with the 2.8 V6? My mom had a Celebrity wagon, 1984 I think. It was the first car I ever drove so I don't know for sure. But it seemed to be fairly powerful for what it was. My friends that drove it said it was pretty good. I haven't driven anything with a 2.8 V6 since. So I'm curious of your opinion on it.
All of the 60 degree GM V6s are pretty good and pretty reliable. The early 2.8 (1984-1986) was carbureted and had a propensity to break crankshafts. When it went fuel injected, they added radius supports and slightly increased the journal size and that was no longer a problem. Aside from that, the intake gaskets were problematic, and the oil pump drive o-ring would eventually leak a little oil. The oil pump drive is where the distributor used to live in the early versions. The original 3.4L in this family was a DOHC engine used in the W-cars. The bare block was adapted to accept DOHC cylinder heads. It still had a timing chain, but instead of driving an in-block cam, it drove the sprocket for the timing belt. They were pretty reliable, save for the same oil pump drive seal, and it was a non-interference engine, so if the timing belt failed the engine wasn’t trashed. 3100/3400 were decent and were the era that introduced Sequential Fuel Injection, so they were the first to receive a cam sensor. They were also the worst ones for the intake gasket problem. The 3500 was quite reliable, albeit slightly underpowered in U vans. They occasionally have intake leaks, but nothing like the earlier 3100/3400. The 3.9L introduces variable valve timing and in some versions active fuel management (kills a few cylinders at cruising speeds). The 3.9L is quite powerful for what it is. My daughter has the 3.9L in her 2006 Impala LTZ and it has pretty impressive acceleration for a car it’s size. No real problems with it at 130,000 miles.
@@paulwindisch1423 I was never a fan of this engine family. I always wondered how an engine that debuted over a decade after the Buick engine could be so much worse. It did have fewer oil leaks I suppose.
@@Mythicregard I guess I’ve had so many of them that I just grew fond of them. 3.1 MFI Sunbird, 3100 Grand Am, 3400 Grand Am, 3500 Montana SV6, 3900 Impala LTZ. Never had trouble with any of them, except having to replace the lower intake gasket on the 3100 Grand Am. The Montana we bought new in 2005 and we just got rid of it this past January due to rust at 130,000 miles. I never even changed the belt or did a tune up. It was still running and driving fine, just time to get mama a new ride.
Ive been having problems with my 2004 park avenue 3800 series 2. The blank 1 sensor 1 o2 sensor fuse blows every couple or few thousand miles. Im thinking its just the 02 sensor. every now and again ill lose power on the highway. Itll have just enough power to keep up my speed with the flow of traffic. The power usually comes back after turning the car off or just waiting while driving. Im pretty sure its the 02 sensor or a wiring issue. Pretty simple fix though either way. Other then that its never let me down. Still going strong for a 1500$ car!! maybe a little funky transmission shifts every now and again but not bad if your drive it like a decent human being lol. Ive put the shift kit on the 4t65e and gave it a little love. So hopefully itll last. 140k miles on it now.
The 3.8 engines in the 80s used in the Cutlass, Regal, etc...were terrible motors. The rod bearings must have been made out of cardboard! I used to flip a few cars back in the day, I bought a nice rust free 83 Regal with buckets and console, and under 100k miles - it needed a 3.8 engine. I found a used engine (like I had numerous times with V8s) that had around 85000 miles, installed it lost a rod bearing in about an hour! Junk junk junk.
i once bought a 1987 bonneville with this early 3.8. it spun a rod bearing on the way home from the used car dealer. they ended up putting a reman engine in it. i didnt realize there was major differences between the 3.8 and 3800, i thought they were basically the same but just an older design they really arent the same and the 3800 was a great engine, the 3.8..... not the best, it was....... just OK
