I just want to say that I really appreciate Roni calling this hand in to discuss. We are all learning and it takes some courage to discuss a certain situation where we know that we could have made better decisions. I signed off on the title and thumb on this one because of the RU-vid algorithm (catchy and clicks) but I am very happy to have been able to talk through this rare situation and I hope everyone can learn from it. --Bart
Class comment post here Bart. I was thinking, "poor dude", after hearing the hand with the title. Your comment is honorable, and I appreciate your sensitivity here.
I will be honest here that’s exactly what I would do and now thanks to Ronnie that I know see what I am not supposed to do and thanks so much Bart for explaining how I should be thinking :)
Despite the title, everyone of us has played a big hand poorly. This guy seems like a smart, thinking player and will learn a lot from this hand. For everyone that ridiculing him, I’m sure at some point you’ve played a hand just as bad, if not worse. I respect this guy for calling in and wanting to learn from it.
This is true, as I told my son, it's not about winning hands, it's about getting paid. It's difficult to get paid sometimes, even with a killer hand - the stars have to align and you have to "play your cards right).
I think when you’re a novice and you flop a straight flush, you tend to get so excited that you just stop thinking clearly. We all learn from our mistakes, and hopefully Roni learned from this.
Yeah this caller is a champ for calling this one in ! We’ve all done something horrendously bad in poker but very few would put it out there as a learning tool. Wow! 😂
I saw with my own two eyes the worst hand of poker played ever. A guy bets out and gets two callers. The flop is Kd, Jc, Jd. Same guy bets both guys call. Turn is Ad. Guy checks, second guy checks, third guy makes a big bet. Both call. River is the Kh. First guy goes all in, second guy goes all in over the top. Third guy looks at his cards. Shows them to me and the guy next to me and says I guess my flush is no good and mucks. Other two players both had Kings. Me and the other guy where in a complete state of shock. The guy folded Qd 10d.
Classic. Guy flops a monster, and tries so hard to be tricky that he tricks himself out of getting any value. Turn is a bet, river is a shove, should've stacked opponent every time.
Max value is the demarcation line between winning and losing players. I see lots of players who know how to avoid getting coolered, but in doing so they rarely make serious money with their very strong hands, they lose small and win even smaller.
Most players don't get a ton of experience playing super nutted hands and few people really study how to play them since how hard can it be? It all seems sort of obvious from a distance. So I'm not super surprised the caller had no idea how to get value from a flopped straight flush. I'm still a little surprised ,though.
Just gotta let you know, I've been consuming your content during a break from poker and ran a $75 starting stack to $955 last night. .50 $1 blinds. Absolutely amazing
This show is such a valuable resource for taking a look inside the mind of a novice player working through hands. The caller says that his opponent will always call a small raise after he put in a bet “like it’s some sort of ego thing” No, it’s some sort of pot odds thing.
I don't think that's a novice observation. In fact it could be a rather sophisticated form of empathy that will serve Hero well in the future, assuming he's not just making up wishful thinking. I interact with a lot of younger, online players who are much more GTO savvy than me. They need to be in their games. But I see more need for this sort of putting yourself in your opponents shoes, at least in live play. Now, if the opponent really is ego driven to call, then the raise should probably be a bit larger because it's no longer just about giving him great pot odds.
Title should read, "Villain plays opponent to perfection and loses the minimum on a trap hand." Caller said his opponent was a good player. Him not re-raising on the end tells me villain had a perfect read on our hero.
i mean he made 2 decisions during the hand which were at least defendable and it’s a fairly niche spot, that alone puts it far from the worst hand ever played imo - at least caller was receptive to advice despite getting dogpiled which seems like a good sign to me!
@@falseheadgossip1700 yup being willing to learn is the most important thing, the title is clickbait but it is a dreadfully bad hand because if you can’t stack your opponent in that spot, then you’re just never stacking, and never making money in poker
I do wonder if with history villain folds to a jam here. It is close to a 2.5x raise if hero is the type to literally never try to buff someone off the chop here and villain knows that it could actually lead to some folds. That said even if they tank and fold a J occasionally you still need to jam just because they aren't going to be twice as likely to call a $500 bet.
Roni admitted he was a tight player and kind of proved it by saying he’s checking back a flush on the turn because the board paired. It’s the thought trap that got us all in lower stakes games about “monsters in the closet” but when you think through the hand this is actually a great card because you smashed the board and unblock all his Jx from continuing. Will he fold the Q-A of diamonds if you bet? Maybe, but I still think you can bet because what if he gas AJ with the A of diamonds or KJ with the K of diamonds? Is he ever folding to like a 1/3-2/3 pot size bet on the turn?
If he wants to show weakness on the turn, I think a tiny bet under 25% of the pot will work better than checking it back. Not only does it still show weakness, but it gives them an opportunity to check-raise. A larger bet like 50-75% pot is far less likely to get check-raised. And just checking it back keeps the pot so tiny.
@@sinatra222how often does villain have air here though? He bet into 3 other people on the flop on a monotone board. He misplayed all 3 streets here. Raised too small on the flop, missed a bet on the turn, and only clicked to $250 on the river. Left a TON of money on the board.
@@pot_kivach160 Large bets are seen as having a polar range of thick value or a bluff. But small bets are often seen as repping thin value, such as an 8 or a 7 here trying to get called by ace high. Aggro players often love to pounce on small bets by putting on the pressure. Small raises are usually seen as very nutted, but small bets are not seen the same as small raises.
@gabrielrockman I see what you mean. Myself, when I face under 25% bet, that's also polar, just like large bet. It could be small hand, but also could be a monster hand. Usually (80%+) a monster hand. Unless I know opponent as a weak profile who plays his cards, I take that as a warning sign.
Don’t worry Ronnie, I misread my hand and checked back the nuts in position the other night. Let’s both of us try not to make the same mistakes twice my guy
Depends on villain, but I might check back T9 on the turn just for pot control a bit. What's he calling with when I raise flop and continue on turn that's worse than a straight? Just a good jack, right? That said, obviously hero should have kept betting the turn for the various reasons you said - such a disaster if you check back and he has a J, 88, 77, T9, a flush. The river was definitely odd. He said the guy was playing crazy with garbage like 2/5, but why does that really matter? He's folding 2/5 to any raise. He could fold an 8 to any raise. I don't know if I fully jam because he might be a hero and fold a J, but I'm definitely going bigger than 250.
Yeah, strictly speaking I disagree with Bart because he could easily be bluffing the Ace or king of diamonds on the river. But those are unlikely to call anyways and don't matter to our analysis.
It’s especially rough because he said the villain is very proud. He said he’d never fold to a small raise on the flop because of a macho mentality. If that’s his mental state, he’d never fold to a shove on the river in case he was pushed off a chop.
This is definitely a keep it simple shove stupid kind of hand. Same thing on the turn, keep it simple bet. Such a fantastic turn card to keep betting. Never folding a J never folding a flush always raising a boat
I feel like AA with a diamond wants to keep betting because you unblock all Jx hands and all combos of 87, with only one diamond. Could be wrong on this one, but I feel like any Ax with a diamond continues on that turn
@@shinypokemonmaster11 I'd probably prefer to bet fold on the turn rather than checking it back. But I think I'd much rather check with AA with the diamond than Ax with the A of diamonds just because with the AA, if I'm ahead on the turn there's really not many cards we're worried about on the river anyway, and we can disguise the strength of our hand slightly.
In a 1-2 game at Mandalay Bay I flopped a royal spade flush. I checked flop checked Kd turn checked river Qh. Said I have to get something out of this hand bet $35 villain went all in for $300. I said I guess i have to call and turned over Royal Also collected $500 for high hand.
He says that he played it wrong on the river, but I think he played it wrong since the turn! Either bet small to look like a protection bet, or large to make it look bluffy, but either way, the turn is a 100% of the time bet! I like going a little larger for 2 reasons. 1. It puts more money in the pot to try and set up a river shove, which is hard to do 400bb deep, and 2. If he wanted to try and bluff the river, he would have to it more in, because there is more money in the pot to bluff at! So, the $100 river bet would have had to be $250-400 if he would have wanted to bluff, instead of thinking he could buy it with only $100. Of course, he's thinking about Vegas and the Mirage and you STILL screwed it up
The voice actor you hired effed up when he goes I thought he had a jack so wanted to extract max value On hands that beats jacks full are quad 8s and straight flush
Sometimes Bart is too hard on the callers and too nitpicky. Sometimes you can tell a player has a decent poker understanding/philosophy but just mismanaged a hand. From every line this guy said it just kept getting worse and worse. I cannot believe this guy would sit down in a game with $1k. Either he loses every session, or his friends are just as horrible as him.
I actually don't like a jam on the river. It's WAY to polarized. It means you either have Quads, SF, or nothing. If I have a J and my opponent jams for like 5x pot in this spot I'm just laying it down. The one thing I do agree with is hero should have 100% bet the turn. When villain bet calls a raise on the flop it narrows his range significantly. So the J on the turn is a dream card for hero in this spot. I would have bet 3/4 to pot size bet. Then on the river I'm betting a little over pot when villain checks to me. He's probably just calling with JX. But maybe, just maybe he will raise? If he does then I jam hoping he calls expecting a chop.
If it makes you feel any better, I remember 20 years ago when it was only my 1st or 2nd time playing in a casino as I was 19 and had to drive to canada to play at that time, it was $3/6 limit and there was a hand where I had the nut straight on an unpaired board with no flush possibility. On the river it was down to 2 of us and I bet, he raised, I raised, and he raised, I starred at the board and was so nervous I was missing something that I just called. I flipped over my hand and the whole table looked at me like, "Dude, why would you not keep raising." Guy mucked his hand(assuming 2nd nut straight) and I felt pretty embarrassed.
I don't know if a jack calls a shove for $1100 when they only have 150 in the pot. As played, I'd probably raise to $700. However, a turn bet makes it an ez shove and call
WOW, this was played badly by both players! The hero should've shoved, and the cutoff should have shoved. I would have shoved with the nut full. Extremely odd that a very aggressive player doesn't shove a nut full house. He must have been afraid of that straight flush or possible quads? Kudos to the cutoff for not shoving! 👍😎✌🗽
I had the exact same situation, I had quads on a double paired board, villian bet river, I jammed 3x pot and he snapped called with high full house. Player was angry at me for betting so much. LOL
I was in a WSOP circuit event once, very early in the tournament with 10K starting stacks. I was dealt 10sJs, and flopped a Royal Flush. I was first to act after the flop, and I a checked. The player on my left raised, and I called. The turn card was dealt (I don't recall what it was) and I checked I checked again. The player on my left went all-in and I called. I flipped over my cards and never saw what he had or what the river card was (not sure if the dealer even showed the river card). I can't see how anyone can raise with the absolute nuts (for a given board). In a cash game, I flopped quad aces, and slow-played until two other players made boats, and got everyone all-in. It is extremely rare that one would do anything but slow play the absolute nuts.
What? If you slow play all your nut hands, you are not getting as much value as you could from them. Just because it worked out for you in two instances doesn't mean you should slow play every time. If those draws didn't come in for your opponents, you would have won a tiny pot.
@@SirWiggleton First, my opponent was the pre-flop raiser both times, and raided on the flop. So he obviously had something. Second, the board was wet both times (As,Ks,Qs on one hand and AA on the other hand), so you must make sure they get a chance to fill all their draws. There is no need to isolate and get some people to fold if you have the absolute nuts (for that hand). Now if you get to the turn or river and no one is betting, then obviously you need to at least make a value bet. And the main point is that on the river, if one is the last to act in any sequence of batting, and you have the nuts, then you must raise (cannot call) or suffer a penalty or be thrown out of the casino (I have seen this happen) because of suspected collusion.
That’s why poker is a learning process. Getting better each and every time is the goal. And once you think you’re the best, go to play a WSOP main event 😂
Big pots are for big hands, and vice-versa. As soon as the turn pairs, I would throw out any line that doesn't have me getting all-in. In fact, against typical players, I'd throw those lines out on the flop. Caller seems to feel he has no chance of opponents calling when he shoves (wrong here obviously), but even if he was right that suggests a serious problem with his ranges. If your opponents have nothing to call with, you've lost little, and can show your straight-flush and bank some meta-game bluffing cred. I can barely imagine how painful it must have been to see opponent's J at showdown...OUCH.
The hero seems very TIGHT and PASSIVE and the whole table knows it. The fact that the villain tanked at the end and "reluctantly called" makes me think the hero would never raise here without quads or straight flush. If he jammed maybe villain wouldn't have called even with a jack. Also think about it, theyre playing thousands deep but 1-2 with no straddle???? a thousand dollar shove is ONLY the mega nuts in that configuration. Another thing to think of. Let's say hero had a Jack instead of straight flush. Would he jam in this spot too? Does villain think he would jam in this spot with a Jack? I honestly don't know. If not, then jamming just tells your opponent: "I have straight flush or quads".
What's a good realistic cap for your raise size? From 100 to like 2000? Vs a reasonable player. Vs station I'm jamming 10k. Also there's 1 combo of quads that would call any size jam
If villain tanked that long with a Jack, sounds like hero is too tight and needs to mix some bluffs in to get some value for his good hands in cases just like this
The caller should get a solver and work on his game, he seemed so focused on inconsequential facts because he's trying to level his opponents. If he just cleared his mind and focused on playing. Sound poker he'd make more in that game.
I'm curious what facts you think are inconsequential. You might be vastly overrating the importance of solver analysis for a 1-2 home game. Exploiting casual opponents when you play with them all the time is the whole ballgame. This isn't the lineup from Bellagio $50-100 here.
It's not just about this hand, it's about all the other hands leading up to this. Because he admitted to playing tight and that he always plays with this person, he doesn't have enough variance in his game. He probably needs to bluff and show more... If he always bets when he has something, the other player will just fold.
4:21 KQJ or QJT would be much better to fastplay. On AKQ the best flush draw available is the 9. Also if you have a bottom end SF, eg 98 on QJT, you want to fade one legit scare card to a royal. Unlikely but small additional reason to get money in sooner.
If the callers description of villain river tank is accurate; I wonder if he might fold to a jam? Caller did say villain knows to him to a very tight player. Villain would have $155 invested & be facing over $1,000 to call.
sometimes there could be some high hand promotions or at least bad beat jackpot possibilities where you might want to avoid scaring people out of the showdown.
@@snowboardinglegend I think it is a little bit more complicated than that because you can lose to a hand that only one card this playing and then the bad beat is disqualified
This hand had me thinking about Bad-Beat jackpots and how would it work if a hand had this board with the hero having 9d10d and two other players in the pot who held pocket 88s & JJs, respectively??? And the payout structure is the typical 50%/25%/25% (loser, winner, table)... So will the player with 88s still get the entire 50%??? Hmmm, it would be mighty interesting if this ever happens bc legitimate cases can be made for breakdowns in various ways lolz!!!
Haven’t watched vid yet but I played a hand on day 2 of WSOP main this year where I had KdJh on J87ddd and got check raised. I called, turn 9d check check, river Td and I faced bet of 20k into 20k. This thumbnail is so weird to see a few weeks later 😂
I don’t like the flop raise because there are likely passive fish behind who would call the 20 and hope to improve. Could turn out to be a huge multi way pot.
Yea i cant get behind the flop raise,you might get some guy spazzing out behind,ya never know.But then to check back turn because you are afraid he'll fold makes no sense,he shouldnt have raised flop then.
Tbh if im the guy with jack i aboslutely not calling jam so i guess is player dependant but most of players will call even a shove that is true. Might call up to 5 hundred but i wouldnt be very happy have to call this as well
I laughed my ASS OFF at that river raise. EVEN IF HES BLUFFING, He won't call a min raise. But if he has a jack he will call literally anything. Wow. Why on earth? At that point you are only praying for him to re raise. And if he has a jack, he will just assume you are chopping so he will probably only call. Wow I am playing in the wrong games. You just gave up hours and hours and hours worth of e v
Caller assumes that because the villain plays a wide range that he was gonna be donkey enough to reraise the J on the river. Good on him for thinking and not reraising or even snap calling.
I am at 6:22 and I have no idea who is still in the hand. One guy is in, then he's not, then he is, the pot size is this, no wait it's that. What is going on?
I actually like the play on all streets. Caller admits he’s a known nit he probably wouldn’t get called for the full shove anyways. I love the min raise plus the greasy +$5. This hand is really hard to get in hold ‘em. Hey maybe missed a couple hundred on the river but I think the way he played it was the only way he was gonna get it all. Opponent was a good player too imo, I’m snap shoving there with a J then I’ll write a country song about it later. He’s gonna get me everytime for a month of Sundays with that play. Great breakdown Bartholomew 🍺
I believe if the villain always calls a shove with a jack here, he will lose money vs this kind of player and this line. Notice that as played, the villain almost mucked. So, at least in this specific setting and mix of personalities, the 250 bet was probably best. I believe the hero knew he had goofed the turn and that a raise would scream strength and scream zero fear of a jack.
I don't think the villain was considering a fold on the river. More likely he was wondering how a hand so strong could possibly not be a shove, and he came to the right conclusion.
Once I folded a straight flush on turn in online micro stakes. Thought I had only a straight when the other two guys had full house and quads. I ended up won a bad beat jackpot.
If I am in Villian shoes, if I bet 100 on river and get over bet shoved on the river for over 1K more when the pot is only a $237 I am going to fold Jx when I get shoved on. Calling 900 more to win only half of $237 is an annoying but correct fold when you are only ever chopping at best. I would be putting my opponent on either quad 8s, straight flush, or Jx. If I get blown off of half of such a small pot so be it. Not the end of the world at all.
No need to get so tricky at 1/2 this dude needs to wake up in the morning, grab his coffee, eat a little breakfast. Then repeat after Bart. "Value , value, value, value ,value." X99.
I'm extremely confused. First he says there's 3 players to the flop; then there's 4. Then he said only the cutoff calls his check-raise; but then he said it checked around 3 ways on the turn? Anyway, I don't like this play 4 handed in a single raised pot. There's just more value to be had by just calling the bet on the flop and keeping the other players in the hand. Their ranges are going to have a lot of pair-plus here. Heads up I think fast playing may be better overall. Checking the turn is terrible. You've already shown a ton of strength check-raising the flop 4 ways. Now checking the turn on the board pair makes it pretty obvious you have a monster hand. Once you've fast-played the flop I think you're better off on the turn making a big bet to make it look like you're trying to prevent your opponent from getting there.
I wonder if JJ folds a river shove. I know the answer is no. Villain beats 88 but do 88 clicks back flop and check the turn… the hand was played so weird and it’s live poker so it’s a call but there’s zero bluffs there and only thing hero has is 88 or 10 9 diamonds.
Not critical, but the pot amount before the flop should be $50, not $47. UTG limped ($2), CO raised to $12 ($14), Button calls ($26), SB calls ($38), BB folds ($40), UTG calls ($50).
I think we might be missing the personal, in-game dynamics here. He said he was reluctant to even call the $250. If that’s the case, no way he would have called a jam. Maybe the hero maximized?
I like that you're considering alternative perspectives where hero' s play made sense. However, even if you're right, that would indicate a raise to something like $400 that still seems normal for Hero with a jack. Rarely, rarely villain might fold for a weird overbet shove, although that's unlikely too. But he's never folding a jack for300 more.
@@brucet.3239 It's not about how tight the player making the call is. It's about the image of the person making the very small raise there. Against an extreme OMC who always has it when he raises, a large number of people will consider a fold. There are some players who have an image of being extremely tight, so when they raise on a board like this, any rational player would consider folding to them.
Something overlooked in my opinion. Had he just called the flop, he would have an extra $40 in the pot potentially, instead of $25. Additionally, they also have a chance to catch up.
I think Ronnie if you re reading this, you re too concerned about short term results, I base that on you saying you just wanted to get paid. So you raise ridiculously small. Think long term, if you shove and he folds an 8, so be it, you lose the $150 call but if he has that Jack, you re getting paid off large and long term, you can make up that $150 up much more quickly than that $1,000 missed value.
