Can we take a second to appreciate this man. As a broke student this guy is compiling hours of research and giving us the most important takeaways from the flo grappling, instructionals, which are all locked behind paywalls, in a digestable format.
If we are going to talk about end games, we need to acknowledge the fact that dog fight, turtle, and front head lock all have a very important similarity: they keep you out of guard. I think the reason why singles and doubles aren’t as effective in the end is because we end up in guard where leg locks are readily available (making it more dangerous for the top player). Good footsweeps, slide bys, snap down to front head lock, and the suplex, for example, are takedowns that put you in truly dominant positions in jiu jitsu (like back, side control, or mount). Taking people down for the sake of taking people down only works in a last ditch effort to rack up points at the end of a match. Like you said, you have to think about the end game: a true dominant position. If you can’t directly get there from a certain take down, it’s not worth as much time practicing than others that put you in back, side top, and mount
I think you make a very solid point, although I'd much rather hang in half guard than side control. Obviously I'm talking in a good half guard situation, not landing in half butterfly or smt like that
A person skilled in takedowns won’t end up in guard, but will end up in side control or mount. Khabib is a good example of someone who takes people down and passes the legs to mount without getting caught in guard. It’s hard to analyze and then generalize the wrestling in Jiu Jitsu when there frankly the wrestling isn’t very skilled yet. It will be, I am sure of that. But right now, drawing the conclusion that you shouldn’t work much on it is not a great message. The rules could change overnight where wrestling the takedown game matters more than ever.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 i would also argue that ad the wrestling gets better in bjj people will get better at leg riding even if they do end up in guard after a takedown
Kade vs Pj is such an interesting match. Like you said, Pj’s D1 “clean” wrestling still wasn’t enough to help him succeed in the dog fight position where Kade’s “dirty”/unorthodox style helped him win. The difference is not Kade’s technical ability but his jiujitsu sense to avoid the danger once it hits the ground and to capitalize with chain sub attempts, where Pj’s instinct is to chain more wrestling attacks
Wrestling isnt takedowns and jiu jitsu isnt submissions. They are both different grappling arts each with an infinite number of effective techniques and strategies.
So there's an interesting overlap here between wrestling and BJJ... Russian's are by far the best wrestlers in the world and as such when I study wrestling I spend a significant amount of time studying them. One of the main differences between Russian wrestlers and the rest of the world isn't just that they're better at scoring from a front headlock, but they are some of the only wrestlers (in the entire world) who CONSISTENTLY score when THEY are the ones caught underneath in a front headlock. Taking the value of the front headlock one step further, it's not just who can get there, but who can also score once they are put in a front head. So as such I've been spending a lot of my time lately teaching students how to get to the front head AND how to create defensive to offensive cycles if they are caught in it (because just like the data shows, it's all but guaranteed you'll end up there during the match). This is actually one of the focal points I cover in an upcoming instructional as this is one of the areas I believe to be massively underutilized in BJJ. I may have to reference your video lol
for low level blue belt hobbyists like my self, after spending a few week i had scouring RU-vid for good proper front head defense, bringing it up feels like a super power. I hardly get subbed by guillotines, and constantly end up usually in a better position, through drag outs, and dumps. It also allows a high confidence when getting sprawled on that you can escape to at worst a neutral position if not a dominate one.
There’s also stalling in wrestling which forces the action. There’s no stalling in jj from neutral and in most cases you can flee the mat. This makes for less action of course and there’s no plenty for being very defensive
@paulleclaire8252 I haven't quite finished listening yet but so far all the stats he's bringing up are from ADCC, which most definitely penalizes for stalling and non-agression.
@@paulleclaire8252 agree 100%, there has to be more stalling calls enforced in the sport. In wrestling the stall calls come quick if someone stops working. I think from a practical angle, we should concentrate on controlling our opponent. However, in terms of spectating I'd rather watch a wrestling match than a jiu jitsu match 9 times out of 10. Because If I take the lead in the match, theres nothing stopping me from being a blanket and just holding them there. Like I said from a practical angle it makes sense, but it's just not fun to watch. Like the recent jacob couch and jay rod match was very boring to me. Maybe they should just get the points and be forced to stand up again after the points are scored (they should have some time to work the position tho, not just immediately stand up if you get mount). And a submission wins the match, like how a fall wins the match in wrestling. That way our art is more realistic, instead of people just pulling guard and we get embarrassed in MMA.
@@coloradoclif they do but its not a shot clock where if you dont shoot in one minute its a point. The opponent obviously knows this and can be ready to sprawl and go behind. I'm not disagreeing saying that sprawls and go behinds aren't a fantastic and energy efficient way to score. I'm just saying the rules in college and freestyle force shots in particular more than "action" with guys clubbing heads like crazy or Kyanan getting negatives for crushing Craig Jones.
Tnx for clearing my thoughts! As a dad I must squeeze the best I can from the few hours i have left for training. I appreciate a lot what you have done. You're like a GPT coach for me hahahaha but bring questions that I never had a chance to ask. Love your work, bro.
Hey it’s me at the 12.07 mark Thanks for the share of my front headlock footage mate! Appreciate the breakdown and the thoughts. Wasn’t easy catching that on an adcc veteran and ufc veteran, dudes tough.
he does the figure four grip because it helps keep the leg from slipping out, he learned it from andre galvao. you dont see it in wrestling cause leg slipping isnt as much of an issue becuase they wear shoes
I think it’s important to note that wrestling isn’t just takedowns. The dogfight, is a classic wrestling position. So if Kade the won exchange from the dogfight position, he won from a classic mat wrestling exchange. The best way to win from the dogfight exchange is to get off the waist and drop back down to the legs. Wrapping up the legs prevents the scramble. Staying on the waist gives the person with the overhook/whizzer inside hip position and has offense as long as the guy remains on the waist, which is literally the point and use of the whizzer. It’s taken away when he drops to the legs. The front headlock is also a very common position in wrestling, and good wrestling from there will give you the back. So, it certainly isn’t useless to spend time on mat wrestling, like what was said, when these exchanges are classic wrestling and also so common in jujitsu I wouldn’t expect for the takedowns right now to be so successful when 1. People avoid them by pulling guard and 2. The set ups and mechanics aren’t great so spine posture makes you susceptible to chokes. A proper set up means the person is so out of position that the takedown comes easily. This is what J’Den was saying. The amount of time spent is irrelevant when the execution of the technique isn’t good
Really interesting stuff man, seems like you're one of the few people taking this journey seriously and it seems like you enjoy the analysis of it all as well
Bro you’re a genius lol when I first started watching your videos, my knee jerk reaction was that these in depth studies are probably useful for the top players in bjj but not really applicable for white belts or beginners. I thought that the newbies should probably stick to the basics for their benefit. However, after really thinking about it and carrying a lot of what you’ve researched onto the mats, I think the complete opposite. Essentially what you have done is create a road map to how to efficiently use training time. By identifying weak points and strong points, you’re basically removing the struggles of “not knowing what to do”. These ARE the basics, and these are simple concepts to grasp. I really applaud what you’ve done and It bums me that you’ll be off RU-vid for a bit but I’m looking forward to whatever you’re cooking up next.
Dude this is exactly the goal of my channel and I am very happy it is coming through so thank you for this comment! I will be back with some new toys and some fun content! I appreciate all the support!
I’ve wrestled most of my life. I’m also a black belt who uses a lot of wrestling in my Jiu-Jitsu. I mostly agree. The cost/benefit for most BJJ athletes to learn wrestling simply doesn’t pan out - especially if it means trading less BJJ to do so. But, if your goal is to win big competitions, especially at earlier belts, having a sound grasp of wrestling really helps. One other point of benefit that wouldn’t show up in the data but is nonetheless valuable is the mindset wrestling teaches. Training wrestling with other wrestlers makes you tough and stubborn in a way that most sports can’t. It’s probably the most important thing high level BJJ guys are taking from their time in wrestling rooms.
Your last videos of analyzing stats have been in my opinion your best so far. Edit: though i'd add this: If you take advice from unqualified strangers on the internet here's my 2 cents- you will notice when you study guard that effectiveness in positions like the dogfight is a component of having a good guard. Entering tight waist vs whizzer (dogfight) is pretty much the biggest part of half guard bottom. Also wrestling up is probably the most effective way to deal with stalling, this is also predicated on being able to work from the wrestling scramble you will find yourself in. I don't think most people reading this have faced a guy that wants to stall and run away and disengage, but for those who have I am sure they have felt the same thing, especially once you complete a sweep and your opponents go berserk, you keep them down usually through a wrestling scramble. (what Danaher calls 2 phase reversals)
Speaking for myself, man your work is amazing. Thanks a lot for the data. For me, as a competitor, this work is so valuable. I was searching for an RU-vid page like this for a long time. Really well done mate. Keep up with this great work.
This video is f****** gold! I was literally thinking what would i focus on next after I get open guard and leg lock defence down. Keep it up bro! U r raising the level of juijitsu of the community more then some couches teaching live classes
I wanted to share my experience after watching this video. In my last tournament, I scored first with a takedown in 3 out of 4 matches in the Open class and in my weight division 2 out of 3. It's been a journey from being a pure guard puller with a dangerous closed/knee shield guard to mainly going for takedowns and back takes over the past 1.5 years, with one year of pure wrestling because there was no BJJ school where I was studying. I've discovered that at the level of local BJJ and wrestling competitions, you don't really need elaborate setups. It's more important to be confident in your ability to recover if you fail, which makes it easier to commit to a takedown when you see the opportunity. This approach has led to much more success in my takedowns. I achieved this by focusing solely on finishing the takedown, not on setups. I practiced shooting or starting from a failed shot position in every roll (mainly against heavier training partners) after returning to JJ. Before that, I was simply wrestling defensively and scrambling against the wrestlers. This method might have only worked for me, and I am by no means a sample set for analysis. But I hope my story offers a different viewpoint that you might find interesting and deep. Thank you for your content; it is appreciated!
Love the idea of compiling a list of timestamps to show live examples of techniques. If I can help with that effort, I'd be glad to. Can't commit a ton of time, but can definitely watch a few matches a day on Flo and note what happened and when. Could also do the same with Flowrestling or even the UWW youtube channel.
Thank you! I did not even think about flo wrestling. So many matches to watch haha. Right now I am still trying to figure out my system for documenting but once I do it would be nice to have some help. I appreciate it!
Man.. this feels like something you would learn after years and years of training and memorising patterns by watching fights. I wonder if there are other videos like this but for striking sports. Amazing stuff, would choke on ya meat bro
Using foot sweeps, circling behind is the best way to deal with people bigger and stronger. Having someone 50+ pounds sprawl on top of you is not good. What an exceptionally put together video!
Wrestling has better controls, so this is why people who train in MMA dominate blue and purple belts sometimes but not always. In mma and wrestling, you're always active, bjj guys spend too much time with bad guard passing and retention.If you try to pass guard, try to pass, not stall all the training. This is why wrestling up is so good now; they made the game more active.
Dude, your work is highly appreciated. Keep it up! As someone who is still in the beginning of his journey, this is exactly what I need, as it helps with what to focus on next
Great content as always. I agree with another comment that wrestling levels matter as well but this also explains why I do much better in MMA grappling than BJJ. Bottom position in BJJ is much lower risk, higher reward than when strikes are involved and disengagement is allowed. 😊
way to get after it bro. this type of work is appreciated by dorks like me who are smart enough to consume but not smart enough to do on my own (read lazy and busy). thank you and can't wait to see what you bring from the time off RU-vid.
This is terrific. Everyone in the comments seems to be adding value as well, and it’s turned into great content along with a great discussion. One thing I’d add is the dichotomy between winning matches and being a crowd pleaser. Meaning, everyone wants to win, but there is a significant percentage of grapplers who are looking to grow the sport into being more palatable for spectators and putting on a show for said spectators. Wrestling, so long as it isn’t just two gorillas exchanging collar ties for 15 minutes, generally makes matches more exciting; which is especially true for people without intricate jiu jitsu knowledge. It seems, though, based on the data, that the type of wrestling exchanges that excite the crowd, tend to end up badly for the grappler who initiates them and tries to be a crowd pleaser. So, how does a grappler reconcile wanting to win the match and using wrestling to please the crowd?
This video is amazing. You literally saved me so much time analyzing matches and helped me have some big epiphanies… I’ve been feeling that front headlock is the key to everything! But you brought up the significance of the turtle position too…. I remember an interview on @chadi RU-vid channel with dr Rhadi Ferguson where he said that turtle is where most submissions and finished happen across BJJ, judo, MMA, and wrestling.
The head into the armpit is a pretty old school thing, in catch Wrestling it actually setups a gnarly hammerlock and same thing has been used in judo. Great video btw.
It's not standing wrestling that's needed in jiu jitsu, it's mat wrestling. Learning to use the all fours position and all of its variants that will push forward jiu jitsu.
I don't know if any of the other commenters has suggested it, but you might want to try just pasting your analysis document into one of the modern AI tools (like ChatGPT or Google Bard) and see how it does with various queries (or even parsing the data and putting it into a format that is easy to load into a database). I'd love to see that data, glad to help with these tools too.
For databases and transcribing it into a readable and searchable format, I would recommend either using Notion to set up a DB w/ hyperlinks to videos or Airtable. There is also a concept called behavioral coding, which is what you're doing by annotating the timestamps when something happens (e.g., takedown, submission, etc.).
@@LIMIBJJ btw I'm down to help if you need any thoughts. I've been consciously thinking about it as well. If you have any specific ways of organizing, happy to take your spec and translate it to Notion. I used to use Notes as my primary app, and recently migrated it to Notion from a technique-accrual perspective.
this is awesome, I always thought BJJ guys wrestling was trash, but it kind of makes sense now if even the collegiate guys are using the counter methods
Something else that I personally would love is montage videos. When I'm learning a new move I love watching pros work that system over and over. For example a full video of people working the stright jacket system. Or a full video of darce/anaconda attacks. Stuff like that help so much, and there is not a ton of it to be found.
This is where I see the database really shining. Like if you are wanting to learn k guard from closed guard you can punch that in and get quick examples of that being done in competition. I think once I have this tool I will make more videos like this and people will be able to study match footage with more focus
Makes a good case for adapting Judo throws and having a more foot sweep heavy game for no gi to avoid the sprawl counter. Although, Judo throws from certain holds put you out of position when ground work is initiated.
Love this stuff! Thank you for the time you put in, and enjoy your time off (youtube). When you're back, if you have time I would love to see something like this for the really big guys over 100 kg.
Awesome yeah I am working my way up there! I have to redo everything to enter into the database so I may just start with the big boys this time around and work my way back down
Great job! I’ll be watching that video several more times. I use your videos and take notes to design my own pathway that fits my style of bjj. Thanks for all you do.
Fascinating points and video. Fact remains that BJJ was originally note-worthy in MMA context (Royce ‘93 etc), and wrestling continues to be crucial for MMA, almost like a more focused version of BJJ’s original modus operandi (albeit without guard).
I think my key takeaway is a bit different based on the data you presented. While I agree a dangerous guard that can threaten leg locks is going to be a cornerstone of your game, I don't think building up an exclusively defensive takedown game is necessarily the best use of time. While you can focus on winning exchanges from top turtle, top headlock, and the dog fight, you can also enter those exchanges with wrestling style takedowns. By developing a strong takedown game, you are entering those positions with an advantage in the scramble provided yoy havs a strong setup. You also have a tons of exposure to those positions by virtue of spending time finishing those takedowns. Additionally, the ability to wrestle up presents a dillema to your opponent as your guard now threatens subs, sweeps, and turtle/stand ups. So my key takeaway is that you need spend time fighting from these positions but takedowns are not necessarily a poor use of time. Treat them as an entry to these positions and work on finishing them in a dominant position.
To eliminate noise from countering tired/desperate takedowns, it might be worth filtering the data to include only takedowns from the first half of matches.
Thanks for the video! It was good, except one point of feedback: I think your analysis may be based on a faulty premise. Your data is largely based on people who are not good at wrestling adapted to Jiu-Jitsu (but instead have learned it in isolation, or have had poor technique taught to them by pure BJJ people). What's successful in ADCC might not be getting to foundational issues. You may have already seen it, but Ryan Hall makes good points in the Modern Defense Guard about these fundamentals. I don't think we've yet seen a good fusion of Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling, and hopefully that's coming down the line. Most of the amazing submission grapplers we're watching aren't there yet. But I agree- training time is an invaluable resource. The opportunity cost on focusing on the standing game versus the aftermath of the takedown is huge.
11:17 As a 75kg 4th degree purple, I think the main reason is because 66kg fighters have much more speed and savvy for escaping submissions upper body submissions. I also think it is because the 66kg may often lack the strength to make their upper body submissions more dangerous. As the stats show, it’s more of a positional battle, unless the legs are involved, where both are probably going in for the kill at the same time.
Maybe you wanna checkout chest to back in front of elbows by Giancarlo bodoni, most of the instructional talks about ways to get to the back or to the front headlock from standing, using some wrestling to get as soon as possible to more traditionals jiujitsu positions
Another thing to note is how sophisticated their leglock defense system is despite training at a gym that is not known for leglocks at all. Pretty crazy.
From what I've noticed, it's beneficial to train in all forms of grappling. After that, we have to decide how to implement all forms into one big form of grappling. Transitions, subs, takedowns, throws, trips. I think thats how the russians are good because they do sambo, wrestling, and judo . They represent overall grappling in my opinion the best, but with that its important to be the initiator, control the match as well as making it look like youre not in charge by using traps. If yall can watch B saitiev wrestle, body awareness and movement with fluidity. Just knowing how the body moves and works . Idk random rant, what do yall think?
Wow, wasn’t expecting your video to be this good 😊 I appreciate the time and effort you put into it. Good job 👍 If I may make a request, could you please do a video on how judo affects grappling matches. Thank you so much sir
Sounds like old school gracie challenge stuff. If you're up against someone who's not a wrestler, take down, take back or mount, finish. If you're the inferior wrestler you'll usually win if you have a good guard, choke, Sweep, submission game. In no gi it seems like heel hooks are the way to go but some knowledgeable people have said if hands were thrown usually leg attacks are a bad idea.
No training is bad, but the 5+ years of wrestling it will take to be a really good BJJ player at the 1-2 year level isn't used correctly. Just dedicate 5+ years at BJJ and remember that wrestling doesn't matter outside of high school.
