WTF were Kreia's GOALS during KOTOR 2? 

I still want to see a video about the flaws of the Jedi and the Code you mentioned

This was a great video. I will ponder your reflections of Kreia. And I do believe you inspired me to share my own. Including in response to yours. I just wonder how different the current moment in SWTOR would be. This is supposing if the game had both been consistent with both Kotors and also had more development in its expacs. For Legacy of the Sith does go back to Nihilus, and even has its own betrayer in Malgus.

I'll be waiting for you to make a 3 hours long video one day ;) Just like that one that covers Kreya's philosophy, heh

Gotta say, there's a lot of things in this video I disagree with. Kreia is a horrible person, and her perspective on the Force is wrong. Her plan is to use the "Force Echo" thing to force everyone in the galaxy go through the same suffering the Exile did at Malachor in an attempt to try to force them make the choice that she wants them to: To either separate themselves from the Force and live in a manner that she approves of, or die. All because she's under some delusion that the Force is some sort of brain-controlling monster that tricks people into doing things, rather than them just doing what they choose of their own free will whether it's aligned with the will of the Force or not. Even if you convince her not to go through with it she acts like she's achieved something by losing because you're supposedly going to teach the next generation her teachings and this somehow proves that she was right about everything all along, she's self-absorbed and arrogant to boot. Her name as a Sith Lord: "Traya" is short for what she really is, a betrayer. She represents the third part of the Sith Triumvirate; pain, hunger and betrayal; just a few of the horrible things that using the dark side results in. She guides you throughout the game trying to get you to see things through her twisted view and uses you as a tool for her own devices; she claims that she "loves" you, or more accurately what you represent, and yet she still tries to kill you; I guess that's not surprising coming from someone who thinks it's normal to betray what you believe in. Her tangent about believing in an ideal means you have to be willing to betray it is psychopathic, subversive nonsense; belief in an ideal does not require betrayal. She's definitely a fascinating character who's mostly well-written and her voice actress did an incredible job, and I can see why so many people are captivated by her; but holy crap guys, she's freaking evil. Her plan (assuming it would work) would involve killing most, if not everyone in the galaxy. She'd rather put everyone through immense suffering and/or an excruciating death rather than admit that she's wrong about anything. She straight up says she'd kill the entire galaxy for you because she supposedly "loves" you, and she "loves" you mostly because you supposedly represent her being right. Saying her goals are noble is messed up, I think some people drink too much haterade about the Jedi and the Force and this makes them ignore when people like Kreia are actually horrible people who want to do horrible things.

@@alaskamark4562 Kreia was not a good person indeed. She had many good perspectives and offered much wisdom. But a good person? Not at all. As for the betraying ideals statement. It's not psychotic at all. It simply means not be so unbelievably devoted to something you're not willing to see its flaws - and if those flaws become a hinderance, be willing to turn away and if necessary go against them.

Yeah it was a truly novel and interesting view on the force for sure, since in basically all other Star Wars content the force wielders use the force and believe it has a will of it’s own, but are ok with it. She was the first being to challenge that and loathe the forces influence on the galaxy

I would argue she is one of the better written characters in all of sci-fi. Let alone stars wars. Chris really outdone himself here

She absolutely is the best written character in all of Star Wars, arguably in all of fiction, period.

@@monkeysk8er33 definitely agree that she’s the best written Star Wars character and one of the best written in all of fiction. The writing is a big part of why I love KOTOR 2 so much

@@aamirrazak3467 Well to be fair the Force's Will would technically be the combined will of EVERYONE in the galaxy including your own.

Why isn’t kotor a movie

@@anthonyfowler2623 You would need atleast a series to show a fraction of the depth of the games, esp kotor 2. These games, while cinematics, arent made to be movie like a Naughty Dog production

Coming soon to disney + "runining the character of kreia"

​@@anthonyfowler2623People have tried but it always turns into development hell. Weather its story, scale, special effects/CGI, actors/VA and etc.

I feel that she was either written with a deliberate flaw in her reasoning or it was the result of the writers themselves not realising that destroying or draining the Living Force would have no effect upon the galaxy being manipulated by the Will of the Force which itself originates from the Cosmic Force. KoTOR2 was released in 2004 and the Living Force was first mentioned in 2000 in a Darth Maul novel so that part would have been known to the writers, The Cosmic Force didn't get its name until novels used the term in 2008 but the distinction between two aspects of the Force predated the term being used so maybe it was some obscure fact the writers overlooked when working with the Lucasfilm story team.

The RPG audience only like murderhobo wish fulfillment pretty much. Even obsidiant went this way in pillars 2 with myriads of waifubait and people out of nowhere barging in your room asking for sex

What is the Force actually? A differente question. What really IS the force?

Yee

Agreed she really did a superb job as Kreia I can’t imagine anyone else voicing the character

I’m still amazed she hasn’t done much more work since KOTOR. She’s exceptionally talented.

Absolutely

Probably the best voice acting I”ve ever heard. She did an amazing job with Kreia.

What Kreia said is very similar to one of Sun Tzu's most important tenants from his book, The Art of War. That being it is far more effective to subdue your enemy without fighting. Similarly, she said to Mical, "I? Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true." No doubt Kreia would be a chess grandmaster in today's world.

It's not because the Exile could destroy the Force's Will, it's because the Exile was evidence that one COULD live without the Force's Will. Kreia further explores this idea in the Jedi Enclave when she severs the Jedi Master's from the Force, she is hoping that one of them might make the same choice the Exile did on Malachor V and choose to give up their connection rather than grasping onto the Force as it was ripped away from them. But they do not give it up, they struggle to hold onto it and it causes them to die. Because of this Kreia comes to decide that it is not realistic for other's to turn away from the Force so easily and that the event is something unique, that in order to force someone to let go would require wounding someone’s force connection so badly that they would subconsciously let go in order to survive the trauma. But she finds solace in the idea that she may teach the Exile and that the Exile may lead a new Order that is free from the Force's Will by extension of the Exile.

Her ideas are actually wrong, confirmed by Avellone himself. And, given SW lore, and "Force bindes everything" her destruction of the Force would kill everybody. Force is not evil, Kreia is just a big failure that blames Force for her failures in Jedi and Sith ideology.

@@user-mh2md4te9i The Exile is literal proof that it is possible to live without the Force, that’s the whole point of the Exile. That’s like primarily why she got exiled. “And where they look at you and see the death of the Force, I look at you and see hope for all life.” Mical to the Jedi Exile. And how does Avellone prove her points wrong? You can’t just say that without explaining or at least giving a general source?

@@user-mh2md4te9i How do you know the force is not evil? We know that the Jedi worship her, on the contrary, the Sith try to control her. We only know about the force itself that it can give the user abilities such as telekinesis, mind control... We also know that it has a dark and a light side. Not only did Kreia see both the dark side and the light side, but she also saw siths and jedi. She perfectly understands both parties and their ideologies. The strange thing is that jedis and siths don't try to learn anything new about the force. Jedi just blindly follow the will of the force without asking questions. The only thing siths want to learn about the force is how best to destroy their enemies with it. Another strange thing is how long the conflict lasts. Siths and Jedi have been fighting each other for thousands of years, even if they don't know why. What if there is something else behind it. What if the force itself is behind it? That which is a tool of the Shits and an ally of the Jedi is their enemy. But why would the force do that? What would it achieve? Well, as I said, force has two sides. Light and dark. Others always prevail. But why? Why are there times when dark is stronger than light. It looks as if the force is trying to maintain some kind of balance. Like she's using the siths and jedis to kill the each other.. Only to achieve some kind of balance. You might be thinking: Even if this were true, the annihilation forces would kill everything living in the galaxy. The answer to that - not necessarily. Because Kreia found a person who could live a very long time without surviving without force. Known as Jedi Exile. This means that there is a chance that some creatures could survive. Whatever you think of Krea, one thing is clear. Of all the characters in star wars, she knows the most about the force. She felt both the light and the dark side and actively studied it.

@@user-mh2md4te9i You’re taking that statement out of context. Avellone is not saying he wrote Kreia to be wrong, he’s reaffirming that your opinion as the player does not have to agree with Kreia. That is why he says “PC”, because only you get to decide the story of your PC, meanwhile “the Exile” has a canon disposition. His next comment was “If you don’t let the player decide for themselves, then the game becomes a pulpit, not a RPG.” So as the player you decide whether or not Kreia is right but Avellone certainly did not write her to be wrong. He has gone on interview (3 years ago) saying that his inspiration for the story line came from his own examination of the Force and it’s apparent will, that he dislikes predestination by virtue of being an RPG designer, ending it by saying “All of those things kind of bothered me.” He basically shares the opinion of Kreia, it’s the driving point, but the PC still gets to decide whether or not it’s correct.

I've read only Dark Nest trilogy, yet to read Lotf... Change in Jacen's character is stupid, because it doesn't work at all. That way Denning retconned events from NJO and lied about them. I mean, if only preparing to this Caedus stuff destroyed his character, what Lotf will do.

I always wished they would have adapted the Legacy of the Force novels as the sequel trilogy instead of what we got. It would have been far more interesting while still giving everyone the nostalgia they wished for in seeing Luke, Han, and Leia again.

@@user-mh2md4te9i you really should keep going. It does get into Jacen's Psychology more and earlier on. It's a natural through line, especially when you look at what Luke and Ben learned retracing his Journey in Fate of the Jedi. Trust me, it's worth it.

@@tristanalain9239 No worries, I will. However it seems like I hate it already. It's simply 180 percent twist of character. It didn't make sense so they needed retcons of his previous story. Doesn't looks good.

Think it was a waste of off him. Jaina stinks.

Indeed. And, since The Force is sophont, then it enforces a fate that no one can deviate. Kreia was truly doing a favour to Skyriver.

Kreia is more of an egoist though

Well, who doesn't?

Han Molo: I have a good feeling about this.

​@@75JUNAKI Molo?

Very interesting take! Yes almost 4th wall breaking. This got me thinking how the whole game ties beautifully, story plays with mechanics, mechanics plays with story. The will of the force amounts to a single line, a classic grand narrative game script, where you are the good guy or a baddie. But Kreia both rebels and attempts to twist fate, thus the game script is broken. The game mechanics present an alternative, the player/exile is placed in the universe, you are never truly a sith or a jedi but the light and darkness within you grows/changes depending on your actions. You cross lines and never forced to commit to a single side as a player/character because of your wound with this grand will and because as a player you "build" your path rather than blindly follow and thus you have to invest yourself.

Definitely since she is far more powerfull then even her student Darth Nihilus. Ps. They will never be able to make a proper Star Wars KOTOR 2 Remake since they will focus on some stupid stuff that disney is dictating, or they won't even understand the main philosophical themes of this game.

You do realize that the voice actress is still alive, right?

@@alistairgrey5089 She is still active even. Made a series back in 2022. But ye, she's almost 80 so maybe she won't be avaible.

@@Gusanoman it would be great to get her to reprise her role for a remake but I doubt that's ever going to happen.

​@@alistairgrey5089 I know very little about sound design and production but I think it would be possible to improve the quality of the recorded tracks and rescue the unused content of the game for a remake without need of her.

Is something that has bothered me about Star Wars. No one, not even Jedi historians, seem worried that historical records are lost in every epoch despite the advanced technology, data is easily lost and only the Whills of The Force has a full record of Skyriver history. As if The Force was enforce ignorance.

While there are several long-form analysis videos on RU-vid regarding Kreia and her philosophy, here is a (roughly) 8-hour video analysis on KOTOR II: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5texil4EYP4.html

She knew Meetra would never do that

How does that outcome happen? Can it be gained in the Light Side path?

Yeah, this video hinges on the idea that Kreia is right; that the Force is some malevolent entity that inhibits free will. But this is demonstrably false, and so much of both KotOR games drive this home. It makes perfect sense that Meetra, after rejecting Kreia’s hollow ideals-preaching the power of free will while refusing to believe in it when it’s been right in front of her all along-would go on to do nothing in the way of spreading these ideals. For Meetra to go back to being a bog standard Jedi instead of some Kreia II makes perfect sense.

​​​​​@@pwnorbepwned Kreia is right about The Force, is an entity that perpetuates a cycle of death over life under the excuse of "Balance". And we should ignore the Revan novel, since it was written by someone that clearly did not play KOTOR II. I hate that book as Kreia hates The Force.

I felt that the Force Bond was either Kreia's manipulations, and theater, or that by the conclusion of the game, the bond, if legit, was changed by Surik's experiences to that point, that it was severed, or too weak to have any lethal reciprocating effects.

It is strongly hinted that that is the case, that she simply lied to Meetra when she implied the bond could be fatal. And then if you take game mechanics into account it's proven that it isn't, because when one dies in combat it doesn't kill the other.

I think I know which one you're talking about. Too bad the guy who made it is a massive degenerate.

Was it "Kreia's Philosophy: A critical examination of Star Wars"?

@luisisaacdelarosabeltran8476 Yeah that's the one. It's like just shy of 2 hours in length.

@@LaurenEflake It is worth, since it explains quite well Kreia's beliefs and a nice introduction to the Jedi and the Sith. I plan to show it to my mother.

We'll never know if she actually found a better way because the writers that followed diverged from Kreia and the Kotor 2 lore after it ended. The canon could have been that the exile stayed at Malachor to teach a new group of force users or that the exile had killed themself at Malachor to deafen most of the known galaxy to the force, those would be awesome ideas to explore but they weren't and it kinda sucks. One thing not to get boggled down onto is the idea of subjective morality since morality itself IS a human belief and differs among individuals, objective morality does not exist in the real world (by extension, subjective morality makes up ALL morality so there's really no point using objective/subjective to divide it). Even in Star wars I do not believe there is objective morality either, the force represents a powerful entity but not a divine or absolute one and it's incredibly fallable by human moral standards (and the standards of many beings in the star wars universe) considering it willingly allows it's users to use force powers for malicious or evil means. It allows light or dark side influence and powers based on the mental state of the individuals and how their thoughts affect their choices/actions, but not to the action itself that is being committed (this is likely why killing innocents, or even evil or cruel npcs who aren't presently attacking you in the game will likely net you dark side alignment, but killing hundreds of hostile npc's who are actively attacking you in the game doesn't affect alignment at all). The force is completely tied to ones state of mind and the influence goes both ways between the force and it's user. I also don't think it's fair to argue she was just a more subtle sith, she didn't actively pursue the suffering of others, or more power, she also scolds you for doing things that are aligned with sith or dark-side behaviour, like murdering thugs, like threatening poor beggars, like murdering the jedi masters, ultimately she avoided actions that would allow the force to alter her state of mind and shift her out of balance, and only made actions where it would help lead to an outcome she desired (which wasn't just destructive or evil btw, stopping Atris and leading to the defeat and death of Darth Nihilus was incredibly important to prevent further suffering and death/destruction. For as much as she wasn't benevolent, I also don't think she was malevolent either, at the very least her actions were not intended to increase suffering or death just for personal pleasure.

@@Shinobi_Fox It's true she didn't do it for the purpose of enjoying causing others to suffer, but that does not mean it was not evil. Evil is possibly most often done by those who are willing to do anything necessary to accomplish their goals, no matter how it affects others. In the end of the game she explains that her true motivation is that she hates the force, and while she says that's because it "uses them all to achieve some measure of balance, while countless lives are lost," that makes her an incredible hypocrite, because she was willing to cause what could potentially be even greater destruction to achieve her goal. That's still evil. But the assuming that all morality is subjective and mere opinion simply because people have differing opinions seems a large leap indeed. It would be a similar claim to say that radio waves are only real if you have your radio turned on. Or a better example, it's like saying the facts of a crime are dependent on the opinion each witness had from their angle, instead of the cross-examined facts used to make a case. (Any judge or jury will be able to tell you that is incorrect) The fact that people and cultures have different opinions on morality is similarly not evidence that morality is subjective. It's actually distinct evidence that there is objective morality, which we're all more or less close to, applied in many ways, and yet which we all look to in some way, which is why every culture has some similar elements of morality despite the differences. If you think about it, trying to remove the question of objective morality inherently makes every philosophical discussion entirely meaningless. The reason we philosophize, my friend, is because we are in some way discovering or searching for truth. At least, hopefully. Because when we try to invent our own version, it's the same as when someone invents their own story about what happened in a crime case (i.e., it's a lie). I think we can say with certainty that Kreia did not find a better way based on this logic: If objective morality exists (which I believe the evidence shows it does), then her way was evil. If objective morality did not exist, then there would be no objective way to classify anything as 'better', and thus she still could not have found a better way. The reason that we can morally and philosophically see that the path of the Jedi and the Sith are both badly flawed (and Kreia's as well), creating either a destructive self centerdness or a complete lack of identity (or in Kreia's case, an arrogance that manifests in willingness to do anything to anyone to achieve what she wanted), is because we know both intuitively and by observing the evidence, that we were designed to live in a different way, and that it is objectively better. It is one of the clear evidences that speak of a Designer.

I'm glad you enjoy them! Thank you for watching :)

First play through of DAI I was taken aback by him being the big bad. When I replayed it was obvious through his dialogue. The only time I ever really thought anything suspicious of Solas in first playthrough was that one dungeon with the ancient elves, where you can choose who to give the power of the well to. But even then I was like "Oh, bet he's like an elf that kept his immortality." I mean I was kinda right. I like those kinda characters. Atlas in BioShock was another good one.

According to Chris Avellone, the lead designer of KOTOR II, Kreia was heavily inspired by Ravel Puzzlewell from Planescape: Torment.

@@marklee1194 Cool, I didn't know that.

Except this video is too Kreia-centric, in that it takes for granted that Kreia is right. It insists she’s the anti-villain, simply because Kreia describes herself as the anti-villain. It agrees with her portrayal of the Force as a malevolent god as gospel, rather than the rationalizations of someone desperate to find a great other to blame for the suffering she’s seen. It gets to the point of saying the Meetra Surik becoming a normal Jedi instead of some arbiter of Kreia’s will is a betrayal of all that was set up, when in fact, what was set up was Meetra summarily rejecting Kreia’s ideals. Kreia was wrong.

I believe she was wiser than Sidious for sure! More powerful? Maybe not haha

@@100StarWars I agree definitely wiser, but isn't knowledge not power? Kreia could even could cut off multiple Jedi from the force at the same time? It's possible Palpatine did not know of this ability by his time. Looking forward to more videos from you. ❤️

A character in Jedi: Fallen Order: Terren Malicos said some of Kreia's sentiment. But then the protagonists just went "lol he's crazy" and killed him, no real counter arguments to prove him wrong be it through the exposition or the story itself. Guess who was involed in that game's story? Yes, the lead writer of kotor 2. It's not that they can't find people to write a character like Kreia, it's that the business model of Disney is to grab at our nostalgia and franchise loyalty, making somebody like Kreia mostly in the right is running counter to that goal.