Why do you need to see the player Display if everything is working as it should (W/O adding any Digital Noise to the Music,which the Led Display might add)
@@stephenassante4405 It's just an FYI. I specified in the video that the Sony doesn't ever have a display. Users should know that in pure direct mode, neither does the Yamaha.
A stunning piece of art, and you touch it…this guy sounds like he hates it, then he waxes enthusiastically about the Yamaha, gorgeous ….is he talking about women or an audio product??😮 later he says he’s been told by an Audiologist that they can’t measure his hearing it goes “beyond” want they can measure. I happen to know that an audiologist can measure up to 20khz and this guys “maybe” in his late thirties. The fact that he said that means he lost ALL credibility with me. NO ONE and I mean no one can hear frequencies that high. Googles your friend. I challenge him to post the company that did his hearing test. He’s full of p**p…….its the KISS principle. If he claims something so out of reality is say everything about his reviews.
Another question Ive got to ask, who the heck is Diane Bish and who cares? This guy sounds like he’s personally affronted by this, might it be that no one cares about Diane Bish except him? SACD manufacturers hear this! We want a Diane Bish SACD. Response: who’s Diane Bish? 😅
You cannot extract the SACD layer of a disc via coaxial or optical output. You could use the HDMI output and send the signal to a receiver capable of encoding SACD. Otherwise, SACD can only be sent out via the analog outputs (xlr or rca). So the signal you would hear from the coaxial or optical output would be the redbook layer of the disc, not the sacd layer. Most SACD discs have both layers of audio.
S/PDIF can output max 24bit/192kHz (uncompressed 2 channel or compressed 5.1)... It's much higher than CD (16bit/44.1kHz) contrary to what Scientific Audiophile said in this video. But if I understand it correctly, SACD DSD is not licensed for that. So it wont play anyway... Optical (TOSLINK) is soooo outdated that there is no point of talking about it... Sony UBP-X800M2 converts DSD from SACD over HDMI to 24bit/88kHz and 24bit/176.4kHz PCM that is still higher than CD Redbook specs. It can send out 2.8MHz DSD through HDMI too... but as you mentioned, one need a proper DAC, integrated amp or AVR that can read it. The problem I have with such reviews is that they compare two different things: In this case Yamaha analogue stage with Sony digital transport.
As a Sony enthusiast owner, I say that if you connect the sony's hdmi2 (audio only) to a converter (hdmi-to-IIS) and the IIS output of the converter to a DAC capable of managing a IIS format (I use a SMSL DO200), you will have all the bandwidth possible as the full DSD signal goes out only through HDMI. On the Sony the coax and spdif put out a DOP 64 signal (DSD over PCM 64 bit, not the best alll...). The audible result is Stunning....
I literally just commented on this. I just bought a bdp-bx37 this week for $8. These DSD pass through boxes finally render all these fancy players (practically) obsolete. I might sell my oppo, as it's slow as molasses reading discs. I also have been buying those scd-ce595 when I find them in the wild. I have bought 4 of them at under 20 each over the past several years, and habe been passing them out to friends and family. They don't have hdmi out, but they do have surround sound rca outs to listen to sacd surround sound in older receivers.
@phantasm1004 I completely agree. The funny thing is, I have more subscribers but I have no videos. Just be nice and helpful. I don't think his schtick will work.
The reason coaxial wouldn't work on the Yamaha with SACDs is because it is a native PCM format. The converter that can handle DSD is in the Yamaha which is of course is routed to the analog outputs.
I moved recently from my Yamaha CD-S300 to the CD-S2100. Was a bit sceptical about the actual listening differences at first and wasn't sure if the placebo effect would be in full swing there but boy oh boy was I wrong and surprised. The smack of the female vocalist lips the tones of snares and cimbals the S300 just couldn't output, all suddenly hit me. Invest in a high end cd player - it's definitely worth it, it will return you favor and repay you in spades.
CD-S2100 was on my wish-to-own list but due to finances I went with the CD-S1000, and just as you I moved from the CD-N301 (CD-S300 with streaming capabilities) and was pleasantly surprised with the additional clarity. Did many A-B tests on rock pop and jazz CDs I own. Enjoy yours!
I have the Sony and the younger Yamaha brother, the CD S1000. I did my research via Yamaha and it was quite clear using an outboard DAC would render the SACD portion useless. There are workarounds using HDMI configurations and what's the point. I like the sound of both and I have two (2) systems, both using vintage electronics and speakers. To me the Yamaha has more clarity and the Sony is less focused yet pleasing. The CD-S1000 has the same drawer quirk its older brother does. Nice review.
Pioneer 4K Blu-ray players that could play SACDs also had very similar shallow drawer which meant that if you owned any hybrid audio CDs (non SACD) they were too thick for the draw mechanism and would also get stuck regardless of being correctly centred.
If I had unlimited cash I would definitely go for the Yamaha, while realizing that I am buying it for the looks only. In the years I have auditioned and owned numerous CD players and DACs I am convinced there are hardly any differences between CD players and DACS in all price categories. If there are subtle differences they only show up in direct comparison. They are never obvious, you have to focus and doubt repeatedly. The current state of audio equipment is that for very little money you get excellent sound. Long gone are the days in where there were big differences in audio quality relating to price. Cheap headphones truly sounded like crap. Nowadays for 50 bucks you already can get a decent pair. And the digital media may be one of the most successful social equality achievements in the last decades. Great sound for very little cash. That said, I still wouldn't go for the cheapest product. Looks matter. When I am browsing for classical music CD's on Discogs I would always pick the CD release with the prettiest CD cover/booklet. Even if it would cost me 10 euros more. No DG Galleria or Philips DUO CD's for me when I can get the original release in a more handsome package. Yes I am that shallow.
Yessir. If Sony UDP had a dedicated CD / USB play shuffle button on its remote like OPPO did it would be the best audio darling for the decade coming. Note: Nothing matches "S" Yamahas for music long listening sessions. Bass is absolutely underrated as the rest of the spectrum. The nearest next station is Accuphase. Enjoy!
The Yamaha CD-S2100 had been measured by an Australian hifi magazine and found to be inverting absolute polarity via both its XLR and RCA analogue outputs
@scientificaudiophile i appreciate your taking the time to check and verify the claims in that review about Yamaha inverting absolute polarity on the S2100，and if you would to go deeper and check the reviews for the S3000 and S2000 from the same magazine, you will find that both these 2 other models invert polarity as well. This is a big issue as inverting absolute polarity is actually quite audible, unlike what that reviewer claimed, and it can have adverse effects on imaging delineation, dynamic contrast, and overall sense of musicality.
You must be in Arizona, because damn you're dry. Haven't checked in for a bit, so was surprised to see more reality intruding in your analysis. I liked it and still love your deadpan delivery. Thanks.
I have the Sony X800 and replaced my Yamaha DVD-S2500 SACD player with it. The Yamaha players sound good, but they are too glitchy and slow. The Sony X800 player works best as a transport. Use a home theater receiver as your pre-amp, and connect the Sony via HDMI. I use my Yamaha TSR-7850 strictly as a network enabled pre-amp, and the Sony bitstreams DSD to it, feeding my Onkyo M-504 amp and B&W 684 S2 speakers. It sounds incredible. Plus, since the Yamaha is network enabled, I also use MusicCast to stream Tidal, Qobuz, Amazon Music, and Apple Music directly to the receiver’s DAC via WiFi.
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Great idea, I do the same albeit with a twist, because I have connected My Panasonic BP-UB400 directly to a Nobsound Q3 DAC and from it to a Samsung HT-E320 as an amplifier.
I just yesterday returned my Yamaha CD s1000BL sacd player. I had it for three days and got so frustrated with. It was such a finicky player! There were some of my normal red book cd’s that it wouldn’t play. My Cambridge CXC v2 cd transport played them? I read that others have had the same issue? If you pay over a$1000 for a player the darn thing needs to work properly. I was not a fan of the Yamaha’s tray, as was described you are not given much room to properly seat the cd. It sounded really good, just a shame that it had issues reading cd’s!
I have the same sony, I like the sound so far (coaxial). I was thinking of using some receiver as a pre-amp (to use that HDMI out) but I will be listening in stereo for the time being. Anyway, there might be DAC"s with HDMI in .....
Love the humor in this video. Offering some personal thoughts: 1. Always read the specs before buying a unit. What kind of disc does it play and over which output. 2. In today's market, the DAC matters more than the player. The Yamaha - I own the the 3100 - is a great stereo player but incredibly limited for its price. 3. I did an Analogue in Analogue out on the RME to use the EQ, it worked great. The RME has a better DAC and is more versatile for sure. 4. The UBP-X800M2 is a brilliant entry level unit. Will play almost everything and the HDMI out allows for Digital out on SACD including multi channel. Best bang for your buck. Not an audiophile product. Power cord is not interchangeable. 5. There is an older Sony transport, The Xa5400Es that allows digital out on SACDs Stereo or Multi. Does not play DVD or Blu Ray. 6. The Technics SL G700, Technics latest entry, is basically as limiting as the Yamaha, but it's a better CD transport and does MQA CD decoding. I feed optical into the RME as digital through to use the EQ, and the optical out to a Denafrips DDC and DAC. FANTASTIC COMBO. 7. My latest acquisition is a Reavon, which will play EVERYTHING. I bought it for two reasons: it is region free and with the help of a D.BOB audio extractor, will carry a native DSD signal into a DAC (Stereo only) and THAT is the holy grail. Multi Channel is achieved over HDMI. Next on my list will be a Magnetar, which has superior components. MORAL OF THE STORY: what you should buy depends on the rest of your system + your audio collection + your hearing. SACD are the best, but many releases come out in Blu Ray and others can only be found on DVD. I had the luxury to be able to buy them all, but that's not a cheap route. A good amp and DAC will matter most. Cheers.
No coax or optical for the Yamaha I think because of the copy protection for SACDs. Not sure why the Sony allows it though. I wonder if the Sony converts the DSD to standard PCM?
Yes it does. you can select two channel stereo audio and also multichannel audio from DSD and you can covert it to LPCM and PCM (or it does automatically) when your connected device does not support DSD format. (according to manual. I have the sony but not a receiver with or other device with HDMI input for audio (yet).
Great content! I said the same thing when I saw Andrew rave about how amazing this theater system from Sony was... it's pretty much a surround system in a box (reminded me something from the 90's) but his exaggerated review made me think Sony is sending him checks or equipment.
I agree about the tray on the CD-S2100, it is way too shallow and I jammed mine on the first try. After that I learned to make sure the disc is centered in those little gray rubber nubbins I also wish the display was a more visible modern type. I really don't care about SACD, I just wanted a player to match my integrated amp. I only have a couple of samplers in SACD and at my age my brain and ears aren't all that picky. Where I did notice a difference was playing regular CDs on the Yamaha compared to my almost thirteen year old Panasonic BluRay player that only cost $160 back then. That was noticeable to me, but if I only had the old unit I could survive just fine.
As a drinkaphile I prefer my cheaper Yamaha cd-c600 as it has a large plastic tray to drop 5 cds on so I don't have to waste time standing up when one disk finishes.
The Bach is very well played - I do love music and also play violin. If you want to hear how fast it can be played, then check out final movements played by Nigel Kennedy. As for the SACD player not providing output on digital coax: this is down to the copyright protection on SACDs. Thank you for making this comparison.
Okay, I didn't know anything about you until yesterday and then I watched "Calling out the reviewers" which was hilarious; "congratulations mom for doing what every other old person has ever done". A regular jokester.
This was the best video I've seen. Its inspired me to get the yammy SACD. You and me both. I can hear minuscule details and notice the fine prints with Audio. I listened to the same song that was supposedly remastered the vanilla ice ninja rap compared to the original and I was blown away with the difference. My local had it refurbished for a decent price and I should of got it.... however I could also get a marantz SACD player instead...
I was hoping for some charts comparing the output between the two sources, I don't doubt there's minimal difference between the two but it'd be pretty interesting to see what actually changed (or didn't)
The problem with measurements is that they don't come close to my level of hearing. So even if they measurements don't hear a difference, it doesn't mean I won't.
@@scientificaudiophile I just started watching your videos, I hadn't yet realized how powerful your golden ears are - I hope you demagnetized your CDs before testing them
You only talk about high edge frequencies, but what about soundstage transparency details dynamics speed separation and so much more that make the audiophile sound? What about the image, the placement of the musicians in front of you? microdetails of the midrange frequencies?
You only heard the sacd on the Yamaha, the sony universal player converts Dsd to pcm that's why you were only listening pcm sound through coaxial... its not real sacd sound... so OfCourse the high frequency was not as good on the sony, SACD through optical is a joke right? So in other words you were comparing apples to oranges, which is not "scientific" at all! You have a lot to learn and do your homework on technology and equipment to become an audiophile, your ability to hear high frequencies is obviously not enough. get the Dsd versions of those sacds on a computer connect it to your rme through usb and then you can compare the sound of rme to the Yamaha.
Are you saying that the Sony UBP-X800M2 outputs DSD signals (SACD LAYER) on either the Sony player's digital outs that you can then feed your RME DAC and decode DSD ? That would be a shocker.
What's this Moe's Art thing he keeps speaking of? Also, you can't say you have golden ears because Steve Guttenberg has trademarked those words. He's seventy four years old, but can still hear the differences between cables. It's quite astounding.
You make a fair point. I would like to offer a counterpoint though. You got a 50/50 shot of the Yamaha outlasting 10 Soni*, and when you factor in inflation for each replacement Sony the Yamaha starts to look like a bargain. Your grandchildren's friends will all marvel at the sound it makes when they bounce their brass renminbi coins off of it. *The plural of Sony.
Glad I kept my OPPO BDP-83... I use the HDMI output with a digital breakout box to send that DSD/SACD signal to my Denafrips DAC... And it has a display!
Nice video! I’m curious about one detail. How you connect the Sony to the Rme? Through coaxial and from coaxial you stream a dsd stream to the rme ? I have the same Sony player and the unique way to transmit to the dac the dsd from the sacd is to use an hdmi to i2s adapter . Are you using the same solution to connect the Sony and the rme dac or another solution ?
I have a similar situation with my X800 and my (somewhat cheaper than the Yamaha) Denon dcd 1600. I honestly can't tell the difference. Do you know why my X800 will play SACDs through my Chord Qutest, but my Denon won't?
Is that the stereo or multi setting? Because it is set to stereo. I didn't even realise that this setting existed. It plays ordinary CDs OK. but with an SACD, the frequency light on the Qutest (from the coax digital input on the Denon) immediately goes out and all sound ceases. Incidentally, when I switch from the Qutest input to the line input to my amp direct from the Denon, the volume is considerably louder. Fabulous stuff from you by the way.
After reading this forum message from George P it does seem to be a PCM issue: “After a number of calls to Tech Support and a few emails to Tech Support, Denon has now confirmed that when using the analog output, the DCD-1600NE does not convert the DSD layer of an SACD to PCM!” forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/denon-dcd-1600ne-sacd-cd-player.746187/page-2
Mr. S. Audiophile: about your vaunted hearing capabilities, I did a quick search and found that the highest piano note is 4186 Hertz; the highest violin note is 3520 Hertz; the highest female vocalist note sung is supposedly 12543 Hertz. Even getting into harmonics, a violin can only hit 4698 Hertz. I can't vouch for these numbers, but you see my point. Unless you listen to recorded dog whistles in the above 20,000 Hertz range, what is it you think you can hear up so high that "the audiologist can't even measure me?" Because all instruments - and most voices- are well below even a modest 10,000 Hertz? And most of the professional recording and mixing engineers are in their 50's and 60's...
You should've hooked the Sony into the DAC input of the Yamaha so they would be using the same DAC to make things more equal. Not that it would have changed much.
DACS are for people that don't understand how digital works. Essentially it's ones and zeros. If you alter the code it just won't play. Up until recent times we used discs to hold important code because it was accurate stable and cannot be altered. The only difference is the equalization that most companies use to get different sounds from their products. Marantz and Denon are the same company and they tune Denon for clinical listening. Marantz is tuned for warmth. I've done engineering at multiple companies and that's the secret sauce to you to pay more.
It's Moat-zart, you philistine. And that Hilary Hahn SACD is great, at least my pal who told me to buy it says it is and he owns a cello so must therefore be right. Also nobody buys wine in bottles any more. Boxes are much better and easier to stack.
You don't need an HDMI I²S coonection for SACDs, it's just 24/96 which is usually supported by COAX as well as optical cables. The I²S is only needed for DSD.
Which one will still be working 5, 10 years from now? The super cheap plastic one or the heavily machined metal one? Maybe you are part bat ! With your high pitched hearing.
SACD players will not output any DSD digital stream on SPDIF (Coax or Toslink).. Just I2S but that's a bit of a can of worms in making sure you have the right DSD capable DAC (apparently, I2S implementation is wild wild west).
great review I was just in the middle of considering whether to buy this Sony UBP-X800M2 or not and feared that thing can't be too good due to its mass consumer-target construction...I was litterally yesterday at the shop to check its finishing. Very helpful review for me.
This gentleman with ‘Golden Ears’ claims that when tested by an Audiologist his hearing exceeded the limits of the Audiologist’s test equipment. Hearing tests only go up to 8Khz.
Another great review.. But.. the Yamaha is silver and the Sony looks like a massive chocolate sandwich.. now a massive chocolate sandwich may sound lovely and my kids would prefer it over a silver box, but they are 6 and 8, that's Thier age not audiophile rating.. Luckily I do have an RME FS2 dac. And makes such a musical sound when I hit the children with it, well they need to pay more attention when critical listening, even if Thier crappy pop music doesn't roll off at 60khz.. Thanks for the review, and my take on this is that the kids can buy the sandwich, when they start earning money,
@@JohnSmith-zl8rz It is BUILT like a tank, Made in Japan, have it for ~3+ years now with ZERO issues.... I've seen them at $2K now, still pricey but it's my forever SACD Player / Streamer !
Are you seriously saying there was no discernible difference in sound quality between the players other than a slightly more extended bass with the Yamaha ?
Ok that's fine. I just wanted to confirm that that was what you were saying. Presumably you were testing both players through their rca outputs in a reasonably resolving system ?
@scientificaudiophile I see now why the sony and yamaha produced similar sound quality. It was because you were only using the sony as a transport as it was fed to the rme dac and then balanced outputs from this into your yamaha amplifier. The result is therefore not so surprising to me.
I really thought this was a spoof... I'm an audio engineer and there is absolutely no difference from one player to the another. The signal is digital and it is not affected by wires or Dacs.... Build quality is the only difference. Higher end companies add weight to give it a sen😮se of quality. As far as a golden ear It's not a thing because we check everyone's hearing and found that being able to register frequencies on a scope does not translate to better hearing especially as we age. The audiophile community died after people bought these high-end equipment cords Dacs amps and were disappointed. when they found out none of it made any difference. So they went to surround sound for more impact and emotion. It's the same reason symphony music is dying with your generation. High end stores choose well recorded music to sell their product which sounds great on anything. I'm still wondering is this was a spoof. Can you respond please and thanks because it was entertaining.
My entire channel is 100% serious. See my latest video about the attack on the audiophile community. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-FMpulekxeew.htmlsi=psxwz6fwtc7PqJzU
I used to be a young audiophile but once I got into college I was able to test the statements I heard. That's when I realized the vast majority of comments were based on emotions and not facts. Vibrations do nothing to digital at all. Impedance only affects the amount of energy controlling volume. Special cables with junction boxes attached are a subtle way to shape the sound like an equalizer. Thinner speaker cable lowered impedance. The clock speed does nothing to the digital signal. The speed of the clock is also digital. Since the sound of digital is numeric binary code and it's read by light transmission vibration or various electrical impulses do not affect it. Analog recordings are vibration based and applying the same laws do not apply. The reason analogue can sound more please than digital is the subtle noise that's produced by the analogue signal transfer to tape. That's what's missing in digital. Our ears are closer to receiving sound the way analog is produced. Sounds Waves. Interactions with air and room reflections.
Cheap used Oppo.... Now thatz funny. I have the sony. 700 and 800. I hate them both. But especially the 700 for its jitter drop outs and instability. Maybe the Revon or Pioneer.....
At the end of the day, the only real difference is the build quality on the outside and not what's on the inside. Open any one of these things up and you will find that the drive is constructed the same way as you would find with buying an internal optical disc drive for a computer and they can do more as they also have the ability to write. You will also find that these things are as cheap as chips. I gave up buying expensive players having had many of them break down in no time at all. For example, I spent a grand on a Panasonic blu ray player and exactly a month after its one-year guarantee had run out it broke down. I was gonna get it repaired but Panasonic wanted £350 to repair it so I threw it in the garbage and that's exactly what I thought of it. I then brought a Sony BDP-S550 for £350 it was a SNAIL! and lasted two years. It was then that I started to pay more attention to the low-end budget products that were getting rave reviews and in 2014 I got the Sony BDP-S4100 a blu ray player that retailed for around £130 and I managed to pick it up in a one-day sale on Amazon for £65. The BDP-S4100 had a lot more features than the BDP-S550 including Smart features, 3D, and SACD all that the BDP-S550 never had. The first thing I noticed about it was that it could load a blu ray as if it was a DVD in seconds unlike that other pile of junk in which you could make a cup of coffee come back and still the disc had not loaded. It's now 2022 and the BDP-S4100 still functions and performs as the day I brought it. Even with sound quality wise there is no difference between the more expensive players I have purchased in the past and even if there was it would be that minuscule that the diminishing returns would be practically none existent. I also purchased in 2020 the Sony UBP-X700 4K Blu-Ray Disc Player for £180 from Amazon which did have a few glitches until the update last year and that is a superb product as well. It just goes to show that looks are not everything and you can spend far less and still be a winner at the end of the day and more expensive products are not always cracked or cranked up to what they're supposed to be. I gave up on vinyl back in the 90's and before vinyl went out of circulation in that same decade it never cost as much as a CD. Since its resurgence in 2017 it now costs up to 3 times more than a CD in some cases and I don't see the logic. Just as I don't see the logic in spending up to grand on a turntable when you can get a blu ray player for less than a couple of hundred quid. The day stereo can define as much detail as what's in an actual recording as a multichannel recording I will drop down dead. The Blu Ray I personally think reigns with SUPREMACY! But of course, that is my own personal opinion and at the end of the day I am happy with what I have and that is all that really matters. It does not matter if you enjoy life in surround or in stereo at the end of the day it is the music that matters the most and what makes you happy.
Much like yourself, I too have ultra-sonic hearing, and I can assure you there is no audible difference between the stock earbuds that come with an off the shelf smartphone and, oh lets say, a Hifiman Susvara. Thats just $6000 worth of audiophile snake oil. Thank you for your disservice to our community!
Yes, from the description of his test setting he basically tested the ESS9016 and it's implementation in the Yamaha against the ESS9028Q2M (if your RME is the 2021 version) and it's implementation in the RME, which doesn't have much to do with the SONY. A solution to avoid this would've been to connect the Sony (optical or coax) to the input ports of the Yamaha and test both with the Yamaha's DAC. But then again, it would have been again mostly a test of the DAC and less of the DIGITAL player (because it's digital, right ... *triggerwarning* ;-P). So, by having two different DAC chips in the chain, it actually would've been very surprising NOT to hear a difference ... (I'm far from having golden ears, but still could hear the difference between my old Yamaha BluRay player's DAC and my integrated amp's DAC, so these things can sound different).
All jokes aside, now that the simple i2s interface boxes can pass DSD through hdmi to an external dac, these fancy players are basically obsolete. If anything, the sony actually has more functionality, being able to play blu-rays. I literally bought a sony blu ray player with sacd capability for $8 this week at a thrift store. I might sell my oppo. Not sure if the sony will play DVD-A though.
