Great improvements. While we're at it.. wouldn't have to be that much bigger to have full size keys. Would like to see them release these as modules too. the interface/controls and sounds on the refaces are amazing.
You always bring out the musicality of instruments you review Nick. This thing sounds great. Editing potential is the most exciting after spending head scratching hours in the 80s trying to make something usable on the original DXs.
Dima Parachute Haha, fair point. Regardless, I honestly really like FM, and hear it in a lot of my favorite electronic music. It has the ability to be really punchy in the low end and retain a high-end crispness I appreciate.
Really appreciate the separate review. I liked the the initial video as well, I mean Bert is an entertaining presenter for sure, but here I feel I'm getting the objective look that is much more valuable to me as a potential buyer. Thanks!
Just wow. This is the best modern digital emulation I've heard - absolutely beautiful and creamy and dramatic - particularly the expressive parts toward the end. For this price, I'm speechless.
I haven't read through the manual or anything, but on all the original DX synths, it's possible to copy the EG params from one operator to another simply by pressing the write button while editing an EG. Although it doesn't seem like much, this new synth does do quite a few things that none of the originals could do: -Each operator now has feedback. This was never possible before, where sometimes only 1-2 had it available, determined by the algorithm. -Each op has it's own LFO depth amount for pitch. This was also never possible, and it was a global amount for all ops. -The pitch env, much the same, can be different amounts per op. -Lastly, MIDI CC is a huge thing for an FM synth. Sysex on the old ones was clunky, and would choke up with the BCR. We can only hope this is the baby step for a much more fully integrated flagship FM synth in the future. Cheers, Karl
very nice and fair review! I highly appreciate that Yamaha brings out an FM synth in 2015. Seems to sound very good, the integrated FX are certainly a blessing. But I'm left wondering why they didn't bring FM to the 21st century with more storeable patches, real midi connections, much more hardware controls, more than 4 operators (the FS1R had 8), more than 8 voices. There would be so many ways to make this an attractive blockbuster. Like this in the Reface series it's maybe a nice little retro gadget (for FM-novices), but IMO for that price it makes more sense to me to get a TX802 and SY99 together leaving you way more options and gives you access to the many classic patches that Nick talked about. The minikeyboard, that many criticized is not a major issue for me, though.
Indeed, for a small piece of gear such as the Reface, it's tricky to integrate an interface for editing 8 ops comfortably. As for the modules, I own the TX802 and the TX81z, and without a software editor, programming is not much fun. My comment was meant more general on what Yamaha could have done with a new FM synthesizer that builds upon FM state of the art and adds some new developments. Of course, the Reface cannot do that, and was apparently not aimed for this either.
in my opinion they have limited the reface dx mainly for marketing purposes... probably they have a plan to release an advanced FM synth in the future with all the good qualities of the reface dx integrated with all the missing features (8 operators, dx7 retro compatibility, unlimited patches, regular keyboard etc.) Obviously it will cost more, probably much more...
Just bought one. This is honestly an amazing synth for the price point. I honestly don’t get why people are so pissed off about it. It’s super convenient and lightweight. Definitely not my desert island synth or anything but then, again if you play synth you should definitely own a full-size keyboard if that’s an issue with it.
There is nothing cheesy about sounds that DX was the only one that made those unique and legendary sounds....Those ballads of the 80's are nearly impossible to find even as VST over the years never would you find those DX sounds and if you find any they were very poor and few....... So I dont know what is cheesy.... Like tell me Rolls Royce is cheesy because many rich people have it.... What is pretty is pretty..... Even if its over used...
After years the reface dx is still one of my favorite synths for warm soothing sounds. Yamaha nailed it. So sad it went with crap touch controls instead of dials.
Could you go into a little detail about the connection of the DX with the BCR? Was that particular connection with the controls established by default, or did you have to do settings on the BCR editor? Thanks.
In my opinion they are very expensive and the touch pads are not both fast and precise unlike dials. They could have embedded mod wheel style dials in place of the touch pads which would have made it faster and more precise while giving hardware feedback to the user which is really useful especially if you dont plan on looking at where you are putting your hands. It would have probably been cheaper than the touch pads too.
Slightly detuned FM pads are my go-to in live's operator and since I'm moving towards a non-laptop setup this is EXACTLY what I needed. Awesome. Gimme gimme.
All are great, the DX is in another category because of its screen allowing for hundreds of things to control versus the others with a few pots and sliders.
I used to have a DX27, loved it. But I realised the NI FM8 had all the presets so I sold it. Shame this won't do older presets. Beautiful piece on the loop by the way.
+Stephanie McKeon you shoultve kept at least one of them. none of the fm soft synths have that solid punchy attack like the classic yamahas do. You can get real tight hits at any frequency to layer with audio drum samples. Cuts through any mix so well.
So you don't need a computer to midi map? Would it work with another midi-usb controller? Such as programming reface parameters to my midi fighter twister pots, for example?
In a world where FM8 is offering an amazing, deep and easy way to program FM synthesis (with 6 operators), unlimited patches, i was expecting from Yamaha something innovative, at least at the control section, to compete with this. The real power of FM showed when Nick hooked that BCR. 32 memories? 8 voice polyphony? 4 operators? No thanks. I'll stick to my DX200 for now...
Very good demo and review, I love this channel. Not a machine I could enjoy because of the menu diving, but you got some great sounds out of it nonetheless. A patient enthusiast could weave magic on this thing.
I've pretty much ordered the DX on the back of this Demo. Couple of things to point out: i) There are some beautiful Lemur templates being developed that give access to all the parameters (something not possible via midi) for a full hands on tweaking experience that does not compromise an external midi clock... I'm using an alternative MIDI controller via android in this track ( ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sUsMAqwgppg.html ) but the principle is the same - it's ambient nonsense all the way. ii) It sends midi clock and can get small drum module ticking (think Volca Beats) and amplify it via its audio input and internal speaker - that's one spectacular mobile combo!
@@elderchildren Hi There, I never got to them (hence the alternative controller and subsequent BCR templates). I'm sure you can still find them on the lemur library.
Just found this video, and it's pretty amusing that you're using the BCR2000 to control the DX -- I'm currently in the middle of a project to control a YM2612 (six-channel, four-operator FM chip used by the Sega Genesis) using an Arduino, with a gutted BCR2000 interfaced with the arduino as the control interface. with the 4x8 array of knobs, and as many buttons, it's perfect for controlling FM synths! I just wish they still made them; i'm only using mine for this because the mainboard died on it and i intended on just switching it over to an arduino to continue using it for MIDI anyway.
Sorry for being a newb, but what are external controllers, and how can they interface with the dx? do you have a computer program to do this or is it just plug and play?
I am curious to know what sort of external MIDI controller is being used. I have not used one with my own synths and wanted to know specific devices that can be used.
Nick, you say "feedback" a lot when you mean "modulation". There is feedback on each individual operator (and you call that correctly), but when an operator works on another operator, it's just modulation. There is no inter-operator feedback on the Reface DX.
"What's wrong with modulating the feedback?" Nick, you really should take a look at the MOD-7 engine in the Korg Kronos. It lets you go off road as much as you want. :)
@@ukaeyfvkfiayuvefyiu Bought the Reface and the MicroKorg on hype and Impulse and had buyers remorse afterwards..Only because of finances..Both were great..I miss them but had to let em go..I have a Kiwa Spectra I'm trying to sell also.
Now that doesn't make any sense at all, why release a new dx7 with 2 less operators, I don't get these companies, Roland also doing limited stuff that don't even reach the old stuff, and now Yamaha also releasing reissues that are worse than their old models 30 years later.
MessiahGaming1080p Not really. It has feedback on all 4 operators and it's 2 types of feedback for each. That's a huge improvement over the DX7. Otherwise it's limited in polyphony and other things, but the feedback features alone are way ahead of those in the DX line.
This has at least a handful of features that vastly improve on the DX7. Probably more than that. Either you didn’t read any information about it before that comment, don’t know anything about thenDX7, or you’re echoing whatever pretentious comment you read somewhere else. Probably all 3, tbh. Especially considering this isn’t even a “new DX7”. It’s a new synth entirely with feedback on every operator which is a first for FM synths.
This isn't a dx7. This is a highly portable keyboard, for hotel stays, for camping, or similar. In contrast to cp, yc or cs, its working principle is the dx one. Even extreme-small-body 6-strings have their niche.
Thanks for the excellent review (as always) Nick! Bit of a head scratcher for me is this. I bloody ADORE the sounds. Really, really great tones with no grit or dirt folks say the old machines exhibit. But falls flat on its face for hands on (IMHO), silly not to be able to load old patches, why not a 2-op looper and 2-ops to play over it? Why not save loops per patch and the killer - just 32 patches - eeek! Can I have a desktop RefaceDX without the KB, usb audio/midi and just built into the BCR please? Picked up a TX81Z and can see myself sticking with that and a Max editor!
Great demo as always Nick. Love your idea re: oscillating feedback, algorythms etc... It is indeed a shame they didn't take the opportunity to push the FM barrier a little further out. Anyway... Am I a little late for a wee moan ?... okay... why the silly midi breakout cable ? So non standard... so if it gets lost/damaged ? What's wrong with standard midi sockets ?
nice review and demo - it is a cool unit in a small package for patches you forgot to mention Soundmondo, a great little iOS app that you can save and load patches from the cloud on the go, perfect for a battery operated synth no one else is doing that now except for Roland cloud and that's not free like Soundmondo
Anyone throwing a hissy fit over the mini keys needs to swallow that pill that this is not a DX7 homage. The DX7 was 6 operators and had 16 voice polyphony. the Reface has 4 operators and 8 voices. Say, you know what DX had 4 operators AND had mini keys AND 8 voice polyphony?! You guessed it, the DX100!!
I don't particularly like cheesy 80's sounds but I want to get into FM synthesis. Is it possible to make patches that don't sound like Jean Michel Jarre?
For sure, fm is endless.. The most cheesy sounds on the dx7 are the internal presets. You can still get cutting edge sound design with an old dx7 even now in 2016 if you put the time i to learning
Great review Nick. yes it is a shame that you can't control the feedback using the pitch EG or the LFO. i am glad for mine and i think its sound great, but the data sliders is pretty bad, if Yamaha don't bring us a sound editor(for windows) when i will for sure make my own Editor :)
Just run it through a full sized master keyboard. The most important thing is THE SOUND. And Yamaha made FM alot more accessible with the DX. And the bottom and thid gem can put out is awesome. And the sparkle on the higher octaves has no equal. My friend created a choir voice pad on his. And when he added some chorus and a touch of reverb. It's as good as any choir pad in history.
My understanding is that there is 32 patches. Is there extra slots for user patches or do you just override the ones the board comes with. Also I'm guessing Yamaha has them for download on their site perhaps in case you want them back? This thing sound really cool, but I would need to wait for some sort of sale. 500$ is a little much in the states, but I actually like the concept of these.
+Markus Cone yes only 32 patches, no user patches, you don't have to download the original sound, you can always recall it, no software yet to save your own sound onto an external device.
only 32 patches, but you can save the original ones on a web site (soundmondo) or on a iphone and overwrite them on the reface dx , so actually you have 32 patches free to initialize and recreate. You can also load patches from the soundmondo site, patches created by people who decided to made them avaible for free downloading. Not the best solution (saving to an external sd card would have been much better, and not difficult to implement) but stll better than the other reface models, which have no patches st all....
Nick something you missed that I think could be valid ref the looper, can the midi sequence you record be dumped/transmitted in real time via midi out? That way you save the melody you create in the daw with the patch dump. Can you confirm? If you read these posts that would be great. Thanks. Jamie.
I would agree slightly for the other 3, but with the screen on this and only this, its many times, maybe hundreds of times deeper than the others and a huge bang for buck, not overpriced at all.
Very dissapointing that you can't load the classic DX patches.. Does it have the classic Basses from the DX built in? Bass 1 & 2 and how accurate is the E Piano to the original?
I'm frustrated by this. The quality of the sound from the Reface series is wonderful. I don't know if it is the DACs they are using or what, but there is this silky smooth quality to all of the keyboards. Really wonderful full and lush feeling, very clean, but not too digital-sounding. I like it. But then I'm so frustrated by the price and that they decided to not really do anything innovative or give any real power to these new synths. As I've said elsewhere, Yamaha produced the YM2612 chip in 1988. It was an 8-voice, 4 op, multitimbral FM synthesizer, most famously used in the Sega Genesis game console. It had no on-board effects of course, but it was almost as powerful as this synth *in 1988*, and was cheap enough to be shipped in game consoles... Why in 2015 did they not push the envelope and give us a really powerful FM synth, or make it a budget synth? I'm excited for your review of the CS, because that is the only Reface that has my curiosity piqued enough to maybe buy it. It is again very limited, but something about the interface feels fresh, to me. The limitations feel like they'd be inspiring, rather than frustrating. Good job, as always, Nick. Thanks.
sounds good, but I dont understand why yamaha dont use the old opl3 chips. it is far more complex than this engine, with lots of voices and operators, and stereo too.
a message to Yamaha: ok, given the quality of sounds/build and the wide range of possibility that this little monster has to offer, it is clear that the reface dx could have been a wonderful instrument (a must have indeed) if you guys didn't decide to limit it in such a questionable way, i.e.: 4 operators instead of 6, incompatibility with dx7 patches, only 32 patches, mini keys instead of regular ones, impossibility to save patches on an external sd card instead of on the bloody iphones or in your web site (soundmondo)... I can understand that there are some marketing choices behind this: probably you are going to release in the next future an advanced fm synth with all the missing features...and it will cost much more, obviously. Anyway, there is one thing that is really incomprehensible to me: why haven't you made avaible an android app where to store patches? We are still waiting!
The 6 operator system on the DX7 allows tremendous flexibility when programmed with software, or tediously, by hand. There is a world of difference between the 4 and 6 op. I still think this is a step in the right direction for Yamaha.
GreenHoleSun Yamaha wasn't aiming at that market with this. Full-size semi-weighted keys with aftertouch, 6 Operators, 100 preset patches, compatibility with DX7 patches, bigger size/components, etc, would have rendered this synth more in the $700 range. They were targeting the budget/entry level market here, and for what it is, it's amazing. And well worth its current $300 street price.
GreenHoleSun I spoke to Yamaha about doing a new DX or even just a new FMX based synth...their response literally was “It’s Yamaha’s philosophy to move forward and not live in the past.”
What are you talking about,you really have normal size stubborn fingers/hands Nick.... :) And the Behringer BCR200 is a legend and it can be used for almost everything and is very the cheap :)
Excellent video! Reface YC next please - those are the 2 most interesting imo. The fact that the DX is getting the most attention, is partly an expression of the analogue subtractive marked stagnating. FM synthesis has long taken a backseat, but it's an interesting and nice-sounding alternative, albeit less intuitive. I think much of the issue with these keyboards as a whole, is the fact that it's actually quite a good idea on paper. But Yamaha seem to attempt to make these keyboards all things to all people, and in doing so end up falling short. Personally i get frustrated, when i see a good idea brought low by lack of "followthrough". There are so many ways to achieve roughly the same, more intelligently, while making it more appealing to more people. That said, i got a feeling that a lot of people will ignore the fact that minikeys aren't an optimal solution for them. It's still a small unit for controller-laden setups, although not as small as a module. It still got keys for those wanting a selfcontained unit, although not the fullsize keys many would prefer. And the size is good for "out and about" stuff, and small and portable are certainly popular these days. So i'm pretty sure this is Yamahas rationale, and at the end of the day it'll work out for them. While i don't necessarily agree with their choice. While it is to my knowledge the only current FM hardware synth on the market. The reason why so many object to the price is quickly revealed when comparing to the competition; be it modern subtractive synths, or FM synths of the past. Several of the competition have fullsize keys with aftertouch, so that is fully possible within the price range. 32 patch memories, vs. atleast twice, but mostly atleast 128, all the way up to 1024. Even the System-1 have been upgraded to surpass the DX - but such upgrades are often lacking in frontpanel control, so saying the DX could be similarly upgraded is just not good enough to what it should be. On the note of frontpanel control, while it is leap forward compared to the FM synths of the past, it's a farcry compared to the elaborate control you get else where, again fully possible within the price range. Bringing us on to the 8 voice polyphony, which is adequate for many things, but can quickly turn to voicestealing with long release pads. And you see both 18 and 25 voice polyphony in the same price range. Looking to the FM synths of the past, the cheaper ones were 8 voice poly 4-op which the Reface DX takes after. But the bigger ones (like the original DX7) were 16 voice 6-op, which would be much more desirable to base the Reface DX on. All in all that lot just says they could've done more and better with a little more effort. So compared to what else is available in the price range, there's some merit to the argument that they're too expensive.
UPDATE: I went and actually tested these buggers earlier this week. Despite my initial misgivings, i ended up taking a DX home. They really sound amazing! And feel like excellent build quality - even the mini keys are by far the best of their kind. Quality-wise the keys are fully on par with good full size keys. But their size is a bit of an issue, just 2mm more width per white key would make a world of difference. That said i think people with slim-to-regular fingers could adjust fairly quickly, especially since they feel like the real deal. My DX is fairly quiet on the line outs, and some investigation have led me to believe they've capped the line output power to keep it running on batteries with those useless built in speakers (which eat a considerable part of the synths max power, and don't disable by themselves with line out connected). Straight into my soundcard, everything on basic settings, the DAW measure it to around -24dBFS when it's on full tilt. All other synths i care to remember will top out at atleast -12dBFS, often higher. I've tested its sound against Abletons Operator FM synth, which is actually quite similar in features and overall architechture. And found the Reface DX to sound more pleasing throughout. With same sounds/settings ofc. Moreover the interface really is easy to wrap your head around, and a few days with this synth have taught me more about FM synthesis than ever before. I went in with moderate expectations, but got blown away by the sound and quality. My misgivings are still relevant: I still think 32 memory slots is far too few. The keys are too small. The speakers are useless and dragging down the useful outputs. The much improved interface, still doesn't match those seen on midrange and above subtractive synths, which it easily could. And while the sound and build quality gives the price credence, i'm still inclined to thinking they're too expensive. Which leaves me severely torn whether or not i should keep my DX. Especially since i have software that does about the same, though doesn't sound as sweet.
Most people were complaining about the price Nick. I actually think they are very good little synths. But in a world where you can buy a Microbrute for 230 quid they just cost TOO MUCH.
But comparing a modern fm synth to a microbrute isn't what it's about, fm synthesis is bonkers. I've been involved with it for years and have many different fm synths as well as software. A microbrute, as good as they are, will never touch what the dx will do, never, but the dx will goto the brutes playground with ease. Also the key bed on the dx is bigger, is way better, the synth has tempo locking (brute is rudimentary at best), dual fx etc. It's not a fair comparison for either unit. These will be going out at £250 before long, for an fm synth with this functionality, warranty etc that's a bargain for anybody that is willing to learn the journey.
+jamie munro I remember picking up a DX200 on the cheap back in the early 00's. Guess a lot of are just bummed that when we get a hardware FM synth it's not that knob laden panel we all dreamed of. Still, would be interesting if Yamaha pulled out some interesting MIDI implementation if/when they release their fancy new web client for the Refaces.
the korg volca fm can do more. it is much more user intuitive. get this, you can download those classic Dx 7 sounds and store them. three note poly, yes. you get a lot more.
Christopher Mitchell only 3 voice polyphony and you need an external keyboard to actually play it. Neither I would call it "user intuitive", but this is subjective. No, thank you, but Volca FM is not for me
I’ve owned a Volca FM and currently own this and the Reface is way more intuitive. Also bipolar feedback on every operator, 2 effects at once, and 5 more voices of polyphony are huge bonuses. The Volca is great if you want sequenced basses or you’re deep into the Volca workflow, but this wins in every other way.
Would be interested in trying this with my octatrack using the LFO's and assignable knobs and sequencer... might have to find one :D (nice review as always)
I played one at my music store last weekend. I really liked it except for the data touchpad slider things. They are just awful. What was yamaha thinking here? Also the synth felt like it was worth about 300 not 500. The UI was laid out nice but the crap sliders just killed it for me. What a shame.
Can't see why Nick even bothered reviewing these. Take pause and think on what everyone would dream of as Yamaha's revisiting the mighty FM . . . and we get a dumbed-down, mini-key, home-keyboard toy with *less* of everything. Entropy in action. If someone turned up for an audition sporting one of these, he'd be politely asked to leave - or be ejected from the building wearing his 'instrument' in an uncomfortable place - without the benefit of lube. Part of the blame must lie with Korg's Teenagey Electronics lucky-bag junk.
Soundmondo has been out for a while now. Will you do a demo of it Nick? Maybe even try some of my patches. :) Some patches on the site are admittedly pretty bad, though. There was a firmware update that added quantization on the phrase looper. Also for the CS, which also added pitch bend depth control, octave or +2.
by the way, the BCR2000 can send Sysex to the reface and bring all the controls out. You can look up the and download the interface here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-E8Xj1MQQvTs.html thank you for the inspiration.
