So, I don't intend to dogpile or start a fight, but for the sake of honest critique, there are... more than a few flaws in this notion and argumentation, I feel. 1. New Donk City is most definitely meant to be the location the events of the original Donkey Kong happened in. There aren't just references, Pauline lives there, and explicitly references the events that happened to her. This along with it being literally a part of the name of the city, combines toward an exceedingly strong implication of being the same place, one that's simply not matched by a few offhand references in Tour courses. Not to mention the interview which mentioned that Donkey Kong has always had a link to "the city" and how that has continued to inform the Mario world from the beginning to now. And of course, we know that the Metro Kingdom is on the same planet as the Mushroom Kingdom. 2. Mario being born in and natively from the Mushroom Kingdom is something that has been consistent across every piece of game media to ever expand on Mario's youth. Every Yoshi's Island game shows that he was delivered to the Mushroom Kingdom, and Partners in Time shows that he lived there into toddlerhood, and his renown with the likes of Toadsworth makes it very unlikely that he was moved outside of the kingdom for any of that period. Just because it is not technically impossible does not mean there is reason to consider it plausible or likely. If one is to take Miyamoto's comments on Mario as being literally from Brooklyn seriously whatsoever in one's approach to canon, that requires a near-total disregard of everything presented in the games in the last 30-odd years. 3. There is no "the" Super Star in the games of the Mario universe that is special to the degree seen in the movie. Super Stars are scattered all over the place, and have been from the beginning, with the temporary invincibility they grant not being a thing that makes them legendary artifacts to be safeguarded or capable of facilitating the conquering of kingdoms. Frankly even the movie doesn't show it having much more power than an ordinary Super Star, and certainly not a much longer timeframe it's active. Were the movie canon, the Super Star that Bowser seeks shouldn't be meaningfully unique at all. Also, the "mushrooms" turned into the ? blocks are the Toads, who give you those pre-existing power ups to help you. 4. Princess Peach is absolutely willing to directly take a stand against Bowser, stand up for what she believes in, and fight, that's absolutely an element of her character. However, she has never been presented in the games to be as naturally inclined toward violence or as... borderline paranoid as she is in the movie, not to mention that Super Mario RPG strongly indicates that she's never gone on an adventure before, as everybody is shocked by her sneaking out of the castle to adventure with Mario (not to mention that she felt the need to in the first place). This is a strong contradiction to the immediately battle-hardened personality that Movie Peach demonstrates, and a plot contradiction in that she has definitely adventured before, done so alongside Mario, and has no expectation to sit on the sidelines, nor would this be a retcon as the remake of Super Mario RPG which was even more recent than the movie preserves and reaffirms this character arc. 5. Movie DK being Donkey Kong II seems to be your answer for how Movie DK could be Movie Cranky's son. This does not work from... um. Any angle, I'm sorry. Cranky Kong was not old when he met Mario, Movie Cranky has not met Mario before at all, Mario *did* meet Donkey Kong II in Donkey Kong Jr. when he was young (as in, not an adult like in the movie), and in general not only did nothing in the Donkey Kong series happen in the movie's universe, but it is outright impossible for it *to* have happened. I'm not sure why you skipped over this, since it's an especially fatal point. In general, I think the biggest flaw with the approach of this video as a rebuttal is that it focuses on countering the weakest points of an argument (such as map differences or minutiae about armor), where a more argumentatively robust and honest approach is to take on the strongest points, which feel like they were largely dismissed by pithy quips without being actually addressed. I appreciate the effort and passion that you've put into trying to argue how the Mario Movie might be able to integrate with the canon of the games. I really do, and it's as good an effort as I think can be made. But the fact of the matter is, the amount of apologetics one needs to play to justify it and the number of technically-not-impossible (and outright directly impossible) events that the movie would introduce to the game canon if linked just... really evidently makes it not work. A lot of this gives kind of vibes of community beef with Marioverse and... look, I kind of get it. The community's approach, while I think it's pretty robust and generally on the right track, can be more than a little abrasive when it comes to disagreements. I've had more than a few. But I don't think there's really any way around them being right on this one, even if some of the minor arguments here and there were a bit weak.
@@YESWOOHO123 My attempt at an explanation of why the Mario Movie couldn't be canon to the games. If you're curious about any of it, definitely feel free to ask!
Super Mario Bros 2 USA version literally shows peach playable which means she was on an adventure with mario, since dreams don't discard canonicity in mario. Also characters acting different doesn't retcon or discard canonicity. The reason why peach acts a bit different in the movie is because this the first time bowser has encountered with the mushroom kingdom. She had to take this role seriously or else her subjects and kingdom would've have been deceased.
There's many inconsistencies in mario, so it doesn't make a difference if the movie is canon. Like the inconsistencies I'm referring to are considered canon so therefore I don't see how the movie doesn't fit in the timeline.
@@YESWOOHO123 Yes, SMB2 USA did happen, that's true. However, Super Mario RPG shows the party's first encounter with Birdo and what is pretty explicitly Peach's first adventure, meaning SMRPG had to have happened before those events in the timeline, as also hinted by Valentina being in command of Birdo and various Beezos which Wart presumably scooped up into his gang sometime after. Also, while you're right that different characterization doesn't necessarily challenge consistency, Peach is in the movie depicted as a hardened warrior type who responds to Mario's approach by pummeling him, and as a master of weaponry, which simply isn't supported by what we see of who Peach was at the time of her early adventures in the games. Willing to fight? Yes. Strong-willed? Certainly. But Movie Peach's personality is a contradiction because it does not mesh with her arc as a character in the games at all.
Dude, hearing my voice sped up caught me off guard, haha. Anyway, here's everything I thought was notable to mention while watching through this. - I agree about the Mario 64 voice direction thing. I definitely think I shouldn't have tried to justify it. Miyamoto clearly seems to want the bros to be from New York, despite the games proving otherwise. - Regarding Donkey Kong stuff, the whole point of the Gameboy game is that it starts off with the original levels, and then opens up to even more. Furthermore, Koizumi said in an interview with Nintendo Dream Web, that New Donk City was directly based on Big City from DK'94, and as we know, New Donk City is confirmed to be the location of the original Donkey Kong arcade game. This is not just from the similar imagery, but rather from the entire context. The NDC festival is related to the history of the city, and it's solely based around Donkey Kong. Unless NDC is a city built by people who want to pay homage to the original events (for some reason?), NDC is certainly where the arcade game took place. The shot at the end of the game is also confirmed to be the Mushroom Kingdom by an interview within the game's strategy guide in Japan. You can find a translated version on the shmuplations website. - I have nothing to say about Mario moving from place to place as a kid. We see him in the Mushroom Kingdom in Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's New Island, Yoshi's Island DS, and Partners in Time, so that's the obvious interpretation to make. However, your idea could theoretically be possible and I think it's a respectable headcanon. - Did Somebody Call a Plumber? showcases that Mario Bros leads into the bros making it to the Mushroom Kingdom. While this doesn't directly confirm that it leads into Super Mario Bros specifically, it does depict the bros stumbling upon the Mushroom Kingdom after following minions in the sewers. Super Mario Bros has been stated to be Mario's first adventure a few times, and while that could be used in a meta sense, it definitely makes sense. Especially with the manual saying that Mario helped because he heard about the kingdom's plight. I will say though, another interpretation is that DK'94 led into Super Mario Bros, which is hinted at in that interview I mentioned earlier. - 6:53 Is this from Super Mario Bros. Game&Watch? Imo that's not necessarily the same event as the original NES version. It could take place shortly afterward, or an entirely different time. I know Seán believes all the G&W Mario games to be canon, but I'm not sure exactly where I stand myself with ones that have the same title as a real NES game. - The costume note is actually very significant because it's acknowledged by modern games. Super Mario Odyssey has the Classic outfit for Mario and Mario Kart Tour has classic outfits for BOTH Mario & Luigi. It's not just a redesign. Super Mario Bros Deluxe kinda treated it as a redesign, but nowadays they always acknowledge the classic colors. - I disagree with your super star points. I do like the headcanon that a comet dropped a bunch of them on the kingdom post-Mario Movie, though. Anyway, I think it's very clear that the Super Star is supposed to just be a normal Super Star. They hyped it up for the film's plot because that makes it more interesting. - I wasn't saying that Toad having camping gear was contradictory, I was saying him being the same character as Captain Toad would be contradictory. People were theorizing that Toad would become Captain Toad by the end of the film. Keep in mind that this video released _before_ the film released. I think different views on how Peach is portrayed are valid though. We don't really see Peach in any situations that she gets in in the games, so we don't know how different she _really_ is. - Rumble in the Jungle is not trustworthy. It wasn't made by Rareware or its developers. Kong civilization in the film is directly based on ruins that exist in the games. It's not that an abundance of Kongs is contradictory to the games, it's that the entirety of Kong society is vastly different. I get the idea of it falling to ruins post-movie, but I really don't think that was the intention. DK being the King of the Jungle is a title, not a status. And I'd like to headcanon that Jungle Beat is when DK got that title. The primary form of transport on DK Island is Barrel themed. This isn't to say that other vehicles don't exist, but barrels take center stage. Even Funky's original plane was built out of a barrel. Anyway, you're right about it not being a contradiction. I was kinda just ranting about it and showing disdain for them using Karts instead of minecarts or barrels, which is what DK is known for. I think they absolutely butchered the kongs by altering their culture so much and not including much from the actual games. Cranky speaking in DKC is not necessarily English. It's a game starring Kongs, so of course you're going to see all the dialogue written in English. The "ook ook" in the spin-offs is to show directly that "hey, these guys speak a different language." I would like to say that this is likely a retcon on Nintendo's part though. Probably around the 2000s when they started using DK more in Mario games. Rare definitely intended them to speak English. That's something I should've acknowledged in the video. The biggest issue with the Kongs is that Cranky Kong basically confirms that the original DK arcade game never happened. You could say it happened in Mario's past in Brooklyn, but I think that's a stretch. They retconned the classic DK games and the brawl in the ring of kong replaces it in the movie universe. - The big point about the map is that we're supposedly looking at a WORLD MAP, not just areas of individual locations. Cranky's map confirms this. Maps changing for the sake of gameplay is a very common thing, and that's why I don't mention too many map differences outside of the scope of the planet itself. - Regarding Karts, I think a better explanation would be that the technology already existed, but for actual karting tournaments, they started low-budget, and increasingly added more and more features from Kong civilization. I still think it's contradictory, but I totally get the idea that the tech could've already existed. - MASSIVE respect for the objection section. I really appreciate the work that went into this video. - The lightning round is indeed nitpicking. Most of the video is. That's what we do 😎 (continued in reply)
- Pauline seemed to live a different life during the events of Donkey Kong. She had blonde poofy hair, as shown by artwork for the arcade game, and new artwork in Odyssey that was based on that old appearance (canonizing it). She certainly could've been mayor then, though. I don't think she was personally, but she could've been, for sure. - Service plumbers do small-scale home jobs. The jobs the bros take in Mario Bros and Superstar Saga are large-scale and involve structures. It would make more sense that the bros working on large structural jobs would indicate them to be more than simple service plumbers. This isn't to say that they couldn't have done service jobs to begin with, or did them on the side though! - Warp Pipes in 3D Land, Mario Party, etc, are what warp pipes look like in-game. My point was that clear Pipes merely showed us what the warp dimension (or _a_ warp dimension) looks like. In the movie, the warp pipes seem to disappear and turn into a jetstream in a similar, yet very different looking warp dimension. Super Nintendo World Japan actually has a warp pipe effect that is ALSO similar to the 3D Land one, which is cool. - I'll concede on the Mushroom Forests, but the floating islands being super prominent I think is notable. My point wasn't that Toad Town looks different, it's that it's depicted as a sprawling city. Every game, including Origami King, depict it as a small little castle town. - The Clear Pipe on the path in 3D World's opening was seemingly just built by the Green Sprixie Princess. We see the Sprixies build clear pipes throughout 3D World, and the fact the one in the intro is broken implies that it was built in a rush so the Sprixie could get help. Clear Pipes absolutely could've existed in the Mushroom Kingdom, but the bros seem shocked to see it (this could be because it was just built though, so I'll concede on my original point). - Dark Land in the movie turned out to just be land under Bowser's Control. Didn't seem like he had a kingdom and that all his minions just live in his floating castle. While I don't think Dark Land is the Koopa Kingdom, the movie shows him as not really having a home base on land (The Koopa Kingdom is usually shown to be connected to the Mushroom Kingdom, while Dark Land is an island in the Mushroom World in SMB3). - Captain Toad's Odyssey levels directly contradict the events of Odyssey themselves in a few different ways. Won't get into it, but I wouldn't take anything that happens in the levels too seriously. I do think you bring up good points about the pyramid though. Maybe it switches between floating and being buried often! I think the pyramid in the movie just another random floating pyramid though, considering it's not hexagonal like the Odyssey one. I completely disagree that they look the same. You can clearly see 3 sides in the Odyssey shot, while you can only see 2 in the movie shot. The movie also has Moe Eye statues in the Sand Kingdom, which we never see in Odyssey. It's possible that Moe Eye exist in other parts of the Sand Kingdom that we never saw in Odyssey, but nonetheless, it's a contradiction for now. - Fire DK's design is potentially a retcon, yeah. Part of the point of the video was to point out EVERYTHING that's different, even if it's not necessarily contradictory. I'm sure you probably realized this, but that's part of what made the video so fun to make. It's not just saying "um, this isn't canon 🤓," it's a chance to geek out about Mario and share all the cool stuff we noticed about the film. I appreciate that you were able to have fun with this rebuttal video as well. - DK'94's Mushroom scene Makes Mario much larger than a Super Mushroom normally would. It's potentially a different kind of Mushroom, like a Mega Mushroom or some mushroom we've never seen before (I imagine it'd be a mega mushroom if the game ever gets remade). I will say that "Mario & Super Mario" wasn't fully changed to "Small Mario & Mario" until 3D Land, I believe. Even if his Super form being his Normal form was hinted as early back as Super Mario Bros 2. If Seán sees this, he can add any of his own thoughts, maybe disagree with some of the things I said as well and give his opinion. I'll leave some more thoughts in a final reply to this comment.
Even though I disagree with most of your claims in this video, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to make it. Seeing anyone engage with Mario lore like this at all is awesome to see. You clearly put a lot of effort into this and I'm excited to see Part 2, since I think it's better put together than Part 1 was. I think it might've been better for you to consider both videos while making the rebuttal and include correlating parts from both, but I understand that that would've been a lot more work. Like another comment mentioned, I would try to cut out some of the fluff from my own video though, as not all of that was necessary. I still firmly believe that the movie is not canon to the games, but hey, if Nintendo ever incorporates elements of the movie into the games, I'll accept defeat and move on. But for now? I think there's too many fundamental differences. A lot of the video is just nitpicks, like I said, but nitpicks add up. If you actually took the time to read all of this, thanks for engaging!
@@DaNintendude Dude, this (and the below replies) is an excellent response. It's really nice to see people engage about something we all love in a manner where we can comment on each other's observations, compare them to our own, and we can all do it in a light hearted and respectful manner.
If I didn’t know you personally, I would think this a video from a bigger RU-vidr, so good work! Only real thing is that you can see the paper background of your guy. And the clips from the other channel go on for a bit longer than they should. I can tell why this was done, but it’s important to make sure it doesn’t go on too long.
Man, you brought me years and years back.. I was always a huge fan of the Mario Brothers.. I truly appreciate the efforts and professionalism used to present the movie.. amazing work.. thanks a billion.. I loved how the movie was presented, the sequence of the events...etc.. you nailed it. I strongly encourage you to keep up the hard work.. do not hesitate to work on other projects in the future.. You are a superstar. Thanks again
I’m sorry but no the video reeks from flaws and bias. You claim that the idea of new donk city and big ape city being the same doesn’t make sense/completely made up then in the same breath you make up the idea that the stork in yoshi’s island made a mistake and was meant to take em to brookyln There’s of course the other flaw around DK in the movie being DK the second which is clearly not the case aside from JR (DK second) Mario NEVER fought a fully grown DK second nor would it make sense for Diddy to exist at the same time as he unless you also wanna make up the idea the Diddy in the movie is some Diddy the first or something There’s also the fact you never bother proving that both DK societies are the same in the movies and games when they really aren’t, they’re not nearly as obsessed with karts as they are in the movies nor do the game house as many living kongs and functional temples as the movie There are also other issues like Pauline traveling through a warp pipe and becoming the mayor of new donk city or the fact Pauline was never kidnapped nor seem to have any relationship with Mario or the fact the way the movie adapted Mario bros arcade different as Mario and Luigi weren’t called by anyone and went down to fix it themselves and yeah the personality of the characters are very much different never mind the voices or a lot of the world building from the RPGs not being present and so on
I actually would like a game tie in to this. This always felt like a somewhat darker reimagining of the Super Show. It even has the theme song appearing in a scene.
If the Mario movie were really canon for the games, I have a theory: my theory is that a long time after the events of the movie, Kamek cast a spell that took away all of Peach's battle experience and also all of her bravery and courage, thus making her the "defenseless" princess that we know.
Another thing that may tie the movie into the game canon is in Mario Kart General Koopa's shell appears as an item. It's just as he said. There is no escaping him.
I know this is only part one, but I’m not convinced. Most if not all Mario games lore “contradictions” can be easily explained away by a believable in universe explanation. Peach’s castle looks different cuz bowser destroys it every time he attacks. 3d land green warp pipe looks nothing like the 3d world’s clear pipe cuz the green ones blocked out the view the clear ones display. Geography in NSWB is a simplified overworld map with peaches castle itself at different distances for each game aka they are different areas of the same biomes. Odyssey is really the first time we see Mario’s whole planet, real locations in tour are seemingly in the alternate dimension seen in the handheld Mario tennis and golf games where America is seen as a country (despite being nowhere on odyssey’s map). Dk island being different cuz the volcano literally erupted and took gorilla glaciers and destroying the head in the process. The beach levels in the retro studio games actually line up with where the dk head should be in relation with Vine valley, the factory and cave levels. The movie is harder to explain away many changes. Donkey Kong HAS to be cranky’s grandson cuz every text states he’s his grandson (including the Japanese version of dk64) and it wouldn’t make sense for cranky to be cranky if his son already had an 8-bit adventure saving him. (Him being cranky is because dk never experienced “real gaming”) The world in the movie looks nothing like odyssey even if you try to simplify it. The green warp pipe we see in 3d land looks nothing like the movie cuz it’s not covered as shown in 3d land, this applies to every warp pipe shown in the movie. The movie doesn’t follow Mario bros just the brothers found a pipe then gets sucked in. The fact that Mario has no relationship with the kongs or Pauline prior to them meeting in the movie just threw out the idea of the arcade game happening in the movie’s timeline. (in fact this is the biggest reason I believe the movie isn’t canon, why does the movie not make a single mention of Mario’s origins if this movie is literally about his origins)
You are SO BASED for making this video, truly taking on the metaphorical Goliath of the "Marioverse Lore experts". This video is really well made, and I'm truly enjoying it!!
Thanks for the compliment! In spite of my disagreements with Marioverse, I do think there is a LOT of merit to their content, so don't discount them entirely.
@@TheKingOfIdiots Oh, for sure! I will say, I have a lot of respect for the work of the project, even if I don't agree with every detail (or some people...). Overall it's a very passion-filled project, which I have much respect for their effort.
I don't think it is like theres a Yoshi island games and M&L Pit and Donkey kong and (not super) Mario bros to prove that this is an alternate universe and miamyoto said the mario form the games are all the same
For those who object that many arguements are "far fetched", I want to kindly remind you all that this is a response to far fetched arguements. Edit: For example, the Goombas. Goombas alredy sided with Kamek and the Koopas when Mario was a Baby. Or is Yoshis Island also non-canon now?
I meant "rogue" Kongs, as in Kongs outside the Kong society, like the Mankey Kongs and Minkeys. I also forgot to mention the Chained Kongs from Super Mario RPG.
