addendum regarding biglaw placements from lower tier law schools (with input from a friend): geography also matters for biglaw when you’re top of your class at a lower tier law school. your best bet for biglaw placement is always through OCI (on-campus interviews), and fewer biglaw firms send attorneys to OCI at lower tier law schools than the T14. (usually, it's partners who themselves went to the lower tier law schools and continue to advocate for recruiting from their alma mater.) biglaw firms that don't participate in OCI are open to receiving resumes from students at lower tier law schools, but they only really look at them if they end up having more space in their summer class than anticipated. (a friend got a call from skadden to interview in ~mid-september for their summer program, which is way after OCI occurs.) so even if you're top of your class at a lower tier law school in the midwest, NYC biglaw is likely not participating in OCI, which disadvantages you and means that you're banking on the likelihood of some NYC biglaw firms having extra space in their summer program and digging your resume out of their pile.
My perspective. I went to FSU Law. It’s middle tier, but respected in Florida. I had no “prestige points” my first job was at the public defenders office. Loved it got a lot of trial experience but couldn’t live the life I wanted on $50k. Moved to private practice and hated my firm so much. I was depressed driving to work everyday and wish I never went to law school. Then moved to a mid tear firm, not big law but still making six figures. I love my job, and am happy I went to law school. I say that to say if big law isn’t your goal, your career path isn’t linear. If you like law and want to be a lawyer go to law school, make your own path.
Thanks for your perspective. I think it's useful and can apply to many areas of life. I'm glad for you that you have been able to secure work you find fulfilling, it's important but underrated. Serving in the military, there's a huge emphasis on rank, which ideally, would drive healthy competition. However, it's cutthroat, backstabbing, and throwing others under the bus in order to reach certain goals, or to curry favor with ranking men and women. Thankfully I've been able to achieve career goals without losing a strong sense of who I am and what I desire from life. A major aspiration of mine is to study law, help veterans with disability claims, reduce the number of suicides and homelessness. Giving back is a key element that drives me.
Glad things worked out for you. It often takes some moving around before finding the ideal workplace, & big bucks doesn't necessarily mean career happiness.
Are the hours awful at a midsize firm? We have a family and are very new to this- we may not be able to move everyone even if we get into a better school... thank you.
@@CathConvertKris no not at my firm, but it’s a Plaintiff’s firm so we don’t have a billable hour requirement. It’s all about getting cases settled and bringing in fees.
@@travelseatsyellowlab A noble aspiration my friend. Keep going. I'm graduating this week and I'm taking some time from school to see if I like teaching and if that doesn't work out the way I want it to, then I'm going to apply to law school. I love the law and I love justice. I hope to work in international and immigration law.
Glad to hear these words from you. I mentioned that some law schools aren't worth the extremely high tuition and online law schools are not worth one's time; several viewers got really mad and said I was being condescending and elitist. Well, welcome to the legal profession, where elitism is king and certain doors will be shut forever depending on your law school and class ranking.
I honestly dont think I have ever read a more untrue statement. UMass Law grad here, unranked school, went through the interview process and got hired at Sony, NY office. For those thinking your law schools rank or gpa determine your success dont listen to these people. Network like hell and be likeable. If you develop those two things whatever your goals are will come true. Also for those reading this post the legal profession does not revolve around "elitism" or whatever that means. Good lawyers are advocates, good lawyers are empathetic towards their clients.
@@bjjchamp29 disagreed. The Law field is very elitist and ultra conservative. However, rankings do matter where you went to law school. Sure, there will be some lucky kittens who graduated from a low ranked law school or unaccredited law school and got a good job or make lots of money, but that is the exception not the rule! Just like everybody can't be rich nor drop dead gorgeous!
@@bjjchamp29 glad you were able to succeed, but that's almost like people pointing at some college or high school drop outs who succeeded & concluding education doesn't matter. In general, people at the lowest-ranked or unaccredited schools have poor outcomes-- can't pass the bar, can't get well-paying attorney jobs, shut out from big law/clerkships, etc.
Flaw in the argument: Arguing by anecdote. Glad you got a job with Sony (whatever that pays) but the fact that you just ignorantly say “a bottom tier school is good because I got ___ job” only proves that quality of lawyers coming from that school. Cmon, you’re arguing by anecdote (no data) even after three years of law school. Yikes. Don’t go to UMass.
@@fitzwilliamdarcy5263 Im encouraging people who didnt get into great schools to not get discouraged about employment opportunities. Sheesh you people are miserable
Love this! One more thing with location-if you’re dead set on working big/midlaw in a big city and don’t have T14/T20 numbers, go to a school in that city. It’s easier to get a job at a New York firm going to a tier 2 school in NYC than a tier 1 school in Iowa or Florida.
From a current law student: Unless you want to do big law at a top 20 firm, or clerk for a Justice, law school doesn't matter. Otherwise kill it wherever you go, and NETWORK your ass off.
@@AyoLokito123 You take out a great deal of debt (especially at a private school like Elon or Wake) with a very minute chance of landing a high-paying job after law school. In the law world, that ever-elusive thing called "prestige" matters. And it matters very, very much. Whether you like it or not. Anyone at Harvard can get a Big Law job. Half the kids at Vanderbilt can. Less than 20% of the kids at UMiami can. Do you really want to pay $300k for a Miami Law degree so you can make only $70k after graduation?
@@t3h8ar0n Is my assertion incorrect of someone's end goal is public interest, nonprofit, etc? That's why I qualified my comment by saying unless the goal is... If your version of success as a lawyer is prestige, high salary, ranked firms, etc. Then I would happily concede that going to a T14 will make your path much easier. Although I have met a number of lawyers in big law firms that went to mid schools and are killing it, just had to hustle a little harder and longer. Which is also fine, unless you don't like to grind.
Ultimately prestige does not equate to actual success in the long term of your legal career. It is always going to be about how hard you choose to work towards your goals. I graduated Michigan State University College of Law cum laude in 2015 after already working in another career field for 3 years after undergrad. I picked this school because I absolutely did not want to take on tuition debt and draining my savings. During law school I interned for a local legal aid in Champaign IL, the law school immigration clinic, DOJ EOIR in Detroit, and DHS OPLA in Chicago. I did the Jessup Moot Court but did not do law review or anything else. I worked hard at all my internships and I had great mentors. None of my internships were paid but the connections I made in the federal government with my mentors were crucial to my understanding of a legal career in the federal government. I worked in private in Chicago for less than a year after law school and hated it because there is no life work balance no matter the pay. I started working for DHS in Seattle in 2016 and since then I have litigated fraud, national security, gang, and human rights cases. After moving to the DMV region I was promoted to a two year detail position as general counsel for Homeland Security Investigations in the entire DMV region. The federal government agencies each have its own legal divisions and acts like large law firms with subject matter expertise in all kinds of legal matters. The federal agencies' legal departments have some of the best working environments for young families. I don't foresee myself quitting this career path anytime in the future because the pay is great (capping at Gs15 step 10 in many agencies and adjusted for locality), work life balance is great, and I still love what I am learning everyday. I strongly encourage anyone reading to consider a career with the federal government even if you haven't attended a prestigious school. You have so many options as long as you work hard towards your goal.
Your opening hit the nail on the head. Don't go to law school unless you are 100% certain this is what you want to do with your life, much less to a school that doesn't line up with your goals. I've been working at a big law personal injury firm for about half a year now as an attorney, and uh, I don't recommend going to law school at all personally. I make good money, I have plenty of "prestige," but I'm not really happy at all. I'm currently amassing money with the goal of getting the hell out of law as soon as possible by opening a small business doing anything else (I'm thinking of opening a cafe as cliché as that is). This wound up being a horribly inefficient path for me. I got a really good scholarship, didn't struggle in law school, and landed a good job out of law school. Passed the bar exam first try. None of it made me happy. Make sure you're happy first and foremost.
Join the club -- a large percentage of people who get decent jobs after law school dream of quitting or quit within 10 years. A friend of mine quit to work at McDonalds and now runs a swim school. Good luck in business if you do decide to quit.
i never comment on stuff but i wanted to let you know that your advice is so on-point it's ridiculous. usually people say bs that you can find on admission pages or whatever but you dish out the real info and have a real understanding of the landscape.
This video is a must-watch for any aspiring law student, I certainly wished this channel existed when I applied a few years ago. You pretty bluntly explain the reality of how "prestige-oriented" so much of the legal field is, and summarizes the entire reason I chose not to go to law school after getting into 4 T-14s.
Hey Cece, great vid! As a current law student in Texas, I can say that Texas firms (even biglaw with Texas roots) also prefer Texas law students over some higher ranked non-T14 students.
100%. I wonder if other states have this same way of thinking. Texans are very proud of Texas in general, but you would think Tech and SMU are higher ranked by how Texans view those law schools...
i go to a T20 school and in my experience people who weren't in the top 10ish% had an incredibly hard time getting summer jobs whereas one of my friends at a mid tier school is the top of her class and has a big law summer associate position -- something to think about!!!! i think going to a top law school matters more long-term but in the short term, just now that if you're not the top of your class, just going to a great law school isn't going to guarantee you a golden ticket into whatever job you want
That's super interesting to hear because I was under the impression that you had more flexibility and could be below the top 10% at a T14. I went to a good regional school ranked much lower and everyone except a few PHDs who got big law offers before graduation were also in the top 10%
True, I went to Georgetown but wasn't at the top of the class. It was humiliating not getting prestigious or better jobs, while people who went to much lower-ranked schools got some good jobs, thanks to being at the top of their class.
i thought it was very hard to secure a 1L summer position so top 10% makes sense, but at a T-20, i thought you only needed to be top 40%? I know a few people at T-20s who are no where near top 10% and still landed great summer jobs
I'm glad this video exists but it's so different from reality for patent attorneys in big law. You can absolutely go straight into big law without going to a top tier school if you have an engineering or science degree.
This is by far the most helpful advice I have heard on this topic. Thank you for posting!! Its really hard for those of us who don't know any lawyers in real life (or only very young lawyers) to find this info in a digestible form.
It’s so hard when you know you’re the kind of person who could get a 4.0/170 but you weren’t when you started college because you had undiagnosed ADHD. I don’t even think I’d want to be a justice, I’m more interested in ACLU. I also don’t mind working my way up.
I’m starting 1L @ St. Thomas Law in Miami this fall. I have a pretty good scholarship that is close to a full ride. It’s not an extremely prestigious school in comparison to T-14’s but I’m sure that I want to become an immigration attorney. This field in particular has a great industry in South Florida and great programs at the school I’m going to. I don’t care much for the prestige, just about my legal education, making valuable connections, and becoming a successful immigration attorney.
This is so helpful! I’m just in my junior year of college, working towards my bachelors degree in criminal justice, and this helps me prepare for the future!
University of Chicago is also a top law school where scotus clerkships and prestigious jobs are achievable !! I’m an undergrad and the law school is Uchicago’s pride and joy lol. they also have some nearly full ride options so it’s a good option
100%! chicago is part of the t14 and has great placements in “prestige” positions, and retweet on the scholarships part (i think it’s the ruby?). excellent school with excellent opportunities all around
My experience: Went to a top 30 school because of a full scholarship. Finished first year top 20% and made law review. I had 18 interviews with Vault/AmLaw 100 firms and only got 1 offer at the end of it. I believe I am a good interviewer, but think it is difficult to land BigLaw when straight from undergrad and not near the top of the class (which I consider top 10%). In hindsight, it was risky not going to a T14. I got my dream firm, but if I didn’t get the one offer, it may have been a bust. Would have gone to a better school and taken on the debt to guarantee a BigLaw job if I new the odds.
on the other hand, it would have been even harder to be at the top of the class at a tougher, higher-ranked law school. Great that you did get the one offer though!
@@aalegalfocus I think the point of the video was that if you are at a higher ranked school, it doesn't matter if you're at the top of the class, because the jobs drop into your laps. I had the same experience with OP at my T30 (but with significantly worse grades). I had to fight tooth and nail for my offers, and if I didn't hustle as hard as I did over this summer, I'd have ended up with nothing, along with about 85% of my class.
Thank you so much for this. I am following my dream finally after being depressed doing other sorts of jobs. My gpa is crap right now but you said to focus on the classes and do electives that you love… and don’t forget to ace the LSAT. Also, you making me rethink some large class law schools like Harvard 😂 580 students that’s maddens
yes, focus a LOT on the LSAT and try to keep your GPA as much as possible. i kinda regret the large class size now and would urge others to reeeeally think through that implication (but also can’t complain too much bc i did meet my partner there haha). i am so proud of you for figuring out your direction for now, and good luck!!
In my experience (bad law school), where you go doesn’t matter as long as you have good grades and/or connections. Even the students with neither at my school found decent jobs
In Canada here and setting up to article with a "prestigious" federal government job- my biggest advice besides killing your exam and interviews is that at least here, I felt they put a large emphasis on work experience and not just being a law school kid with zero actual "real life" experience, especially with the government/law (For example, I had previous government work at a provincial level, had worked since I was sixteen, and spent two years in a law firm prior to finishing law school). They also value people who won't panic or appear flustered when asked unorthodox questions. If you ever get asked a question you don't know the answer to, it is completely fine and natural to calmly ask for a moment to formulate your answer, then proceed from there. It can feel awkward at first, but it is how you need to act in actual legal situations, so it's really demonstrating that you have those buildable skills. Hopefully this helps someone!
I’d like to add that there’s also a scenario in which you go to a state school that’s ranked in the mid 50s and then go to big law (starting in the regional office of the big law firm). Of course, if you have high grades, chances are that you can get a summer associateship at the big law firm. HOWEVER, even if your grades are average, there are big law firms that may still take you after you do a state clerkship. This is what I’ve seen where I’m at. Networking is key. Being able to connect with people is key. I’ll revisit this comment in about a year with a more detailed update.
Glad you mentioned regional law schools. Too many people look down upon it & it isn't fair to those schools or the people who go to those schools. I know plenty of successful attorneys & judges that went to regional law schools.
As someone who went to law school, it really depends on a lot of factors. If you come from nothing and don't have a lot of connections, go to a top tier school. You are buying the name brand and the connections matter. If you go to a lower ranked school, try and do your best to be top in your class to gain access to summer associate positions. This will only happen if you did well in law school and are on a journal. Also the debt plays a major factor. If you are at a great school, the debt shouldn't be that big of a deal because the name will get you in the door at top ranked law firms so you can have the money to pay it off. DEBT is a big factor because you don't want to be making 70-100k a year (hopefully) after law school and have to pay almost 1,500 a month just in student loans. It will hinder your ability to do a lot of things in life such as save for a downpayment on a home, retirement, etc. If you go to a lower ranked school and still aren't offered a scholarship and have to pay sticker price, I would consider another career. If you're at a lower ranked school, you would need to be top 5% in your class and I can tell you this, everyone else wants to be top 5% in the class so you're really competing against everyone else who wants top paying jobs. Even if your interest isn't in big law, what is your strategy after you graduate? Do you plan on hanging a shingle and starting your own law firm? Are you interested in going to work for a small practice? Remember that you need clients and better be good at being a salesman because you're trying to sell people on your services. Law is prestigious, but it's not a direct ticket to a high paying job if that is what you are interested in and you're not going to make a lot of money right away if you're going to a lower ranked school. You can make good money going to the trades, building a business and maybe scaling it. Or go get a certification in programming. You'll make more money and it won't take as long. If you're going to a lower ranked school, know that most likely you will be working at a smaller firm that may not pay as much as you want, but you're still a lawyer and can make a decent living. But then again, you don't want to owe six figures in the whole. It's not a guarantee for making money. Even if you were a doctor with six figures in debt, you can make a lot out the door as a doctor because i dont think the school matters tremendously. And you can then buy into a practice. This is just the information I am giving and it is up to you to make the best decision that will benefit your life.
@@20891 ehh paying for a specific name can matter. But it really depends on what you’re trying to accomplish? If you want money and prestige, than name matters. You can get in the door at big firms, banks, consulting, etc storming out the gates. The rest of us common folk from lower ranked schools need to think differently about what they’re going to do.
@@20891 I really recommend people working before law school and seeing how the real world works and how money works before they make such a big investment. Don’t go because you’re a lost young kid who can’t make money with their liberal arts degree. There are other options. Explore them.
i’m going to school for legal studies with a paralegal concentration and i already knew i didn’t want to do law school but this video solidified it. lots of hard work & i have not enough of the dedication. love your voice btw!!
hey what is the master of legal studies like? is it easier than aJD? what are the admission requirements? just curious. I ask because dont know much about master of legal studies.
@@tropicalbeach9225 IMHO, it's a useless degree, a one year program to bring in more revenue for law schools. You can't sit for the bar exam with a master's in law. I don't know why anyone would pay to get that degree-- maybe HR professionals if their employers are going to pay the tuition.
@@tropicalbeach9225 i’m getting a bachelors in legal studies. I don’t know that I’d get a masters in that subject just because there is nothing else you could really do with it except teach.
@@aalegalfocus Hey Asianamerican, Thanks for your response and for allowing me to understand. The reason to why I ask is because one person I knew who was pursuing a JD; ended up dropping out of law school and went back to the same law school; but was pursuing a masters in legal studies to become a paralegal i guess. However, agreed it does seem useless, a waste of time, and more money for the law schools. I would not want to be a paralegal though.
I hate the way the legal profession works. I went to a low-tier school and had to work my ass off and literally be top 4% of my class just to get a job that people who went to T14s could get with Cs. It’s absurd. All law firms care about is the name of your school. Hey, at least I’m used to putting in 12 hours a day. Those who didn’t try and think they’re just “entitled” to everything are in for a rude awakening.
@@aalegalfocus A _mid-sized_ firm. Yes, you read that right. Not even at a big firm, which typically pays much more money and attracts most of the students from the top tier schools. Of course, I am more than pleased with where I ended up, but to give you some perspective, I can count on two hands the number of students from my school who got jobs at those big firms. Getting a job like that is comparable to getting into the NBA when you go to a low-tier school. Believe me, with my top 4% grades, I was still rejected from every single one that I applied to. I think I am better off in the long run, as I have heard that lifestyle is quite depressing (80 hour workweeks, mean bosses and clients, with absolutely no time for your family/friends). They make a HELL of a lot more money, though (and will never have time to spend it). My point is this: _Yes, where you go to law school matters. You are literally judged, first and foremost, by the name of the school you attended._ I am hard-pressed to believe that people who attended better law schools are just somehow that much more brilliant than people who attended lower tier schools-considering the curriculum is more or less the same, and we all have to pass the same bar exam. But the biggest firms really care about the name of your school. I’d imagine that’s because their clients will only pay for lawyers who went to the best schools. However, this is not to say that it is impossible to get a job as a lawyer. There are still many job opportunities at smaller law firms or doing public interest work. But for those big shot firms, yes, the name of your school matters. Not everyone needs to have that lifestyle and that amount of money in order to be content with their career, and I was never in it for the money-I am a total nerd for the law and could not be happier doing what I love. So my comment sounds discouraging at first glance, but I did not mean for it to sound that way. If you truly love this and want to make it your career, do not get so caught up in the name of the school you attend. On the other hand, if you want to make the most money, definitely worry about going to a top school.
Interesting to hear the T14 experience of OCI being wine-and-dined. I had suspected even the most average grades will get firms begging for you to work for them at T14's. I'm T30, and my OCI experience was awful. I had to fight for every last scrap, and I had 2 callbacks every day for a week (still largely virtual the summer just gone). My cheeks were sore from fake smiling 8 hours a day on camera. And I was one of the lucky ones; 85% of my class didn't even get a single offer... Still, good to see how the other side lives lol (the $250,000 debt made it less enviable though)
This is so much more complicated compared to my country. We have 4 state law schools in my country. Thats it. You graduate and you can end up doing anything.
Ugh finally thank you for the honesty! Academia in general is very elitist. This is how our world works, we’re not saying we agree with the system- but as a new grad who secured her BL job through the OCI process, and attended one of the top 4 law schools in the country, it makes a huge difference where you go to school. How you’re treated, how arduous your path is, your opportunities. In my opinion, unless you have money to spare or you’re at a T30, don’t go!
Good point on location! A lot of people are told T14 or even T20 means you can go anywhere you want in the country. However, you still have to have a good reason to go to that place! Even biglaw firms are asking why you want to be in their city. I didn't get offers from firm in cities that I didn't have a compelling reason to move to. And most won't take "I really like the city!" Need family, spouse, or some other tie.
It really only matters if 1. You want to go to a big law firm in a metro area. 2. You let it matter. 3. If you are at the wrong fit for you. (Harvard, Stanford etc are top tier schools but if they aren’t a personal fit then you likely won’t be successful.) Every single law school is named after someone for a reason. It means that at least one person that went there didn’t let their school define them and their greatness shined regardless. After your first job your networking and performance is your vehicle at that point more so that what paper you have framed However thank you for the video. Good content
I’m attending CUSE right now and I’ve got everything that I need here in order to do good job and achieve my goals after graduation. I’ve never thought about ranking when I was applying to law school because if you believe in yourself and put a lot of effort to be a good lawyer, then people will give you amazing chances to get well-paid jobs even if these jobs are not at biglaw market. Biden earned his JD from CUSE and he is the President who is able to assign judges for Supreme Court actually. It’s what it’s, ranking or higher ranked schools don’t tell you that you’re going to be the best lawyer around the country….
Great info and perspective! Hopefully, in the future there will be less emphasis placed on prestige in the legal community. Prospective/current students and large law firms place too much emphasis solely on U.S. News law school rankings. When choosing which law schools to apply to, it is prudent to look past the arbitrary components that U.S. News uses in their methodology. Yes, those metrics do matter, but try to obtain more substantive information to get a better understanding of a particular school. Try reaching out to alumni to get their perspectives and ask meaningful questions - beyond what you can find on the internet - to faculty and staff when visiting schools. Prestige will never die, but there has been some improvement. I know of a V20 firm that does their best to mask which law school direct hire and lateral associate candidates attended. The hiring committee also conducts multiple panel-votes on candidates in which they can only see grades/credentials/extracurriculars but blacks out their law school in the education section. While not foolproof, it shows there is a concerted effort to address law school prestige in Biglaw hiring.
Very informative stuff. I think an important consideration for those choosing law school prestige in pursuit of a big law career is the attrition rate at big law firms. In 2021, the NALP indicated that across the board law firms of all sizes experienced a 26% attrition rate. Now, granted the pandemic likely contributed to that increase, but this number has been on the rise for some time now. So, it’s important to consider this statistic, if thinking that a big law career is your goal.
Rankings don't matter. Ive worked for a top 10 BL firm in NYC 3yrs after working in an IB...I'm heading to law school bc I want to. However, my partners laughed when I mentioned rankings.... So in NYC, Fordham, for example, is not a T14 yet the top firms come to the campus to hire (including Cravath - ranked #1). If you are good, you'll make it no matter where you go.... only advice my partners gave me was to go where the money is.... I got a lot of full rides, but I'd prefer to be where I want to work.
Rankings absolutely matter. Just because you CAN make it from lower ranked schools doesn’t mean you should bank on it. Only a small percentage do. This is proven by ABA 509 data.
Egos, expectations, and pride are always the greatest danger in life. Imagination is a very dangerous thing. As a lawyer, your job will be to strip away all the layers of how something might seem down to the bear facts, and from those facts, attempt to persuade a judge/jury of one way of looking at those facts which may in fact be the truth. Why not start doing that right now? Law school isn't going to be suits, witty quips, and sunshine. It's going to be hundreds of hours of reading through boring court documents, learning complex legal theories and jargon, and so on; Three years of it in fact! Now, look towards your worldly eschaton: the job. Are you *really* going to love your job? Will it be infinite bliss? Will you be in heaven here on earth? No. There will be even harder worth, with far bigger stakes, and you will suffer for years no matter what you do. f you work for the government you will deal with insidious amounts of utterly mindless bureaucracy before you do anything meaningful, then you will be a slave to evil BS politicking once you've worked your way to the top. If you work for a big firm you will likely be aiding and abetting the destruction of the nation by defending major corporations who don't want the law to apply to them while basically being a highly paid paralegal for a few years in the most intense competition of your life, having no personal time at all. If you work for any of the public interest groups you'll push an ideological agenda which you may grow out of during the coming years, or which may fail under the changing moral and intellectual currents of the age, and you'll likely be poorly paid and expected to expend yourself utterly to achieve ultimately meager ends, which might not even have any effect due to the composition of the Supreme Court or State SC at any given time. If you set up your shingle and start your own practice, this too won't be easy. You won't have the client lists, the paralegal teams, or really anything related to the problem. You'll make a lot less money than those who are working for the government or a big law firm, you'll have to figure out all your own taxes and expenses. You'll have to be self-disciplined enough to seek out work and do all the extra work of a business owner. All this being said, I'm not poo-pooing your choice to be a lawyer. In fact I do think it is a noble profession. But be warned, go in expecting sunshine and rainbows, and you will lose your mind. I always suggest to everything that in all things you enter with high hopes, but exceedingly low expectations. No matter what you choose in life, your is a path of hard work, hustle, self-sacrifice, and suffering. Choose the terms of this sacrifice with care and wise council. “The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion ... and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself - ultimate cost for perfect value.” - Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” - Genesis 3:19, KJV "Seek freedom and become captive of your desires; seek discipline and find your liberty." - Frank Herbert, Dune
Without the prestige that have nothing lmbo that was gold. I am so glad I didn’t go to law school. Stayed an engineer and got to travel the world doing it. Although not a typical path for an engineer had I done law school I’d never had the chance to live overseas.
As a 20 year practicing attorney this is the most important thing: where do you ultimately want to live? Most of us aren’t going to Harvard or Yale. Select the best school you can get into in the state you want to live.
Hi Cece! Thank you for your sharing! I really love watching your videos. I’m going to the George Washington law school in DC this fall. I’m interested in knowing why international students have an edge over domestic students in getting a job in the field of international law. I heard that international law related jobs are popular among domestic students, and international students tend to have work visa obstacles. I’m an international student. I’m interested in international trade law, but I don’t feel optimistic about this kind of opportunities due to the fierce competition in this field and in DC. Would love to hear more about your opinions on this. Thanks!
international law jobs at the hague or the UN aren’t mostly located in the US, so US work visa isn’t an obstacle and being multilingual is appealing. practicing international law in the private sector (like in law firms) does raise visa issues, as all employment of non-citizens in the private sector does, and international students would face somewhat of an uphill battle on both the visa front and the relative scarcity of international law positions front. GW is located in DC, which will be helpful, and i would recommend networking and doing as many related internships and externships as you can to build out strong experience in the field. good luck!
Oh my. This prestige points is rather crazy. I’m curious tho what if my goals are to work with or clerk for state judges or county judges (if they do that idk)?
Then it's ok to go to a lower ranked state school, but normally state Supreme Court clerkships are only for a year or two. Some courts have staff attorney positions. The pay isn't that great, but quality of life is usually good.
From an outsider's perspective the processes of becoming a lawyer in the USA seems a bit cumbersome compared to the UK (Also a lot more expensive). I might be completely wrong though.
This is so informative thank you Cece xx I'm an undergrad at UCL in London, extremely worried that my institution is not prestigious enough to apply for law schools :(
@@CeceXie love your videos, but I do want to push back a little on the idea that your undergrad institution doesn’t matter. I’m in the process of re-applying to law school with an LSAT and GPA that are both above Yale’s 75th percentiles and saved money to work with an admissions advisor with work experience at a T-3 for my other application materials. I also have fairly strong softs. Despite this, I haven’t had any success and the factor that’s continued to come up is that I’m international and went to an unprestigious undergrad. Anecdotal evidence, but I would go so far as to say that your undergrad institution is the 3rd most important factor based on the success I’ve seen from other students with less impressive numbers and resumes. Again, love your videos. Just wanted to add my two cents :)
@@mptwentythree Fair, everything matters - but I guess it’s what are the pull and push point to that “yes” or “no” on the day. All the best with your applications.
If you’re going to open your own firm it doesn’t matter where you go, no potential client asks where did you go to law school when seeking your services.
true, but most successful private practice people first worked in government or top firm for several years before they went solo and that's how they built and had clients. Keep in mind, anyone can open up their own law firm, but who are you? and what makes you think you will get a lot of clients?
Hi cece, I know most of the things that are necessary for getting into top law schools but can you make a video on visas or just tell me what are the visas available for international candidates after graduation, Thank you for making this informative video.
If youre a vet, you have a good chance at getting jobs in a government alphabet agency. Look up CIA, FBI, and NSA law positions, if you want to work in D.C, that could be a good pathway for you.
find other meaningful activities to bring fulfillment to your life. A job is a way to make money, so you can hopefully live off your investments and spend time on things that really matter.
i plan on doing a general law school admissions video, but it won't be exactly geared to international students (as i myself wasn't one). i'll try and talk to my JD and LLM friends who were international, though, and fold in whatever their experiences were!
I’m thinking about going to law school. But I want to practice corporate law and work in a business, not a law firm. I’m not going to a prestigious school either. So is it even worth it? I’m reading some comments and I’m kind of thinking what’s the point of going in debt to make 70k a year like one comment said. I made 50k as a manager with 3 months experience and no schooling. But I do love law and business so I’m conflicted now. Any advice from anyone?
Hi CeCe! Thank you for this helpful video. I have accepted my offer to attend McGill Law School (Canada) next year and I remember you mentioned McGill very briefly in one of your tiktoks when asked about the hiring rates of BigLaw in the US from Canadian schools. I was wondering if you could expand on that as my ultimate goal is to end up in the US (preferably big law in New York)?
my old firm did on-campus interviewing at mcgill law, so there is US biglaw recruiting and placement at mcgill. it might not be every US biglaw firm, but mcgill seems to have a decent presence. i'm not sure what the exact rate of placement into US biglaw is, but mcgill's website (with employment stats) should shed more light on that
i took some law & technology classes in undergrad and absolutely loved them. i also didn't like any of my college internships in finance/economics. looking back, i probably should have taken the risk of trying out different jobs after college, but i was too worried about becoming financially independent as fast as possible.
The “prestige culture” in law firms is exactly why I didn’t want to work for one after law school. I got a JD and an MBA at Boston College. I then became an inside counsel at an investment company in Boston. I got my own condo at 24 years old, and have no school debt. I don’t understand major firms that still care about where you went to school even 20 years after graduation. Chasing prestige is a recipe for burnout. Why would anyone spend years in grad school just so you have to work 2000 billable hours???
Do most US law students prefer to work for the government (such as judges or federal prosecutors) or do they prefer the private sector (such as lawyers)? PS: Sorry for any spelling errors. I'm Brazilian and I used google translator
that's another huge difference between law v. medical school. I doubt there's much unemployment and underemployment among medical school graduates. Congrats!
the funny part is that law schools themselves don't care about prestige of undergrad that much in admissions. if your GPA and LSAT is high, they'll love you, no matter where that GPA is from
Very interesting. How likely is it to progress from first working at a small firm to later landing a job at a big prestigious firm? In comparison to law, Wallstreet analyst and trading programs seem to also have a bias hiring primarily from highly ranked feeder schools. In tech it seems more common that people move up from say a first job at a startup to later joining a big shop like Google and the like.
