Whenever someone says "tiers aren't real" I immediately want to sit them down and have them play mvc2, and try to fight sentinel as roll. I literally don't think it's possible to lose if both players are trying legit.
@@bruceleeds7988 In games like Marvel, character strengths are so distinct that you will 100% notice it as a casual. If you and a friend learned MVC2 for a week, then did the above matchup, there is no fucking way the Sentinel player is losing. At all.
To give you an idea even my scrubby literally didn't understand the basic of fighting games ass back then could tell that Cable was busted when I just faced rolled viper beam and invalidate most fights. The differences in good and bad characters in mvc2 is massive as it comes down to obvious stuff like hit boxes or damage rather then something like SFV where one season Karin was considered so good largely because she had 1 additional frame available to cancel cr.mk into special giving her better hit confirms since that frame was enough to make it reactable.
The collective FGC memory is wiped with every new release. That's why the previous game will always be "the glory days of real FGC that didn't hold your hands and where top players were actually killers" and the new game is always "dumbed down for casuals really neutered gameplay where scrubs can make it to the top unlike the OGs" .. Repeat till the end of time.
is it because newer titles have more forgiving frame inputs, or more reliable way to get combo and damage? Or is it that they've gotten so good that newer games are much easier in comparison. Or is it because of Anime Arena fighter (excluding Kill la Kill)
@@xXEmo54Xx are you telling is that MVC2 magic chaining every move, simplyfying supers down from double direction inputs to single direction input + 2buttons, 1 button assists, 2 button dashes and super tags isn't dumbing down games?
Gotta say that Leon video has some pretty large chunks of pure misinformation, and he made a follow-up comment to the video after some people complained. Still entertaining tho, and twelve is so terrible that he's still not exactly *wrong*, he just focused on weird bits.
@@leithazizpagy4699 the GG video is definitely a lot more egregious in terms misinfo and how hard he goes on re-defining the term "rushdown" but idk that twelve video is more annoying to me because of how popular it is, and how it got so little pushback in comparison to the GG video.
@@chazaqiel2319 He could make a great guide for Kokonoe. Like an advance, hour long guide, covering all her stuff. Bbcf is crazy fun but they lack that 'casual youtube' presence. What I mean is, in fighterz, you got a lot of stuff on youtube that you can just look up and watch, to help you. Bbcf has way less of that, so it's hard to get someone into the game when it's difficult to just find a great guide for bbcf characters, with a host you KNOW that he knows his shit.
@@dudethisusername7285 Absolutely, BBCF's niche nature is the biggest obstacle to getting into it. While the internal resources are really good, with the challenge mode teaching you combos and the tutorial mode giving you some nice neutral tips, it's not nearly enough to replace a guide like, say, something from Rooflemonger for DBFZ. I hope BBCF eventually gets rollback, because that game deserves a renaissance like GGXX, arguably even more
For alot of people who say that, FighterZ is their first fighting game. Honestly one of the easiest fighting games ever. So for them, there ARE bad characters because they haven't played enough fighting games to even know what a bad character is. When I heard people comparing ZBroly to Vergil and Dark Phoenix I knew most people have not played other games. You make a mistake against Vergil in Marvel you can lose 3 characters in 10-15 seconds. You lose an entire match in 15 seconds. YOU WILL NEVER SEE THAT IN FIGHTERZ. High level matches in FighterZ take FOREVER!! I've heard FighterZ players say some pretty off the wall shit when it comes to this game but no. There are no bad characters in this. Hell even matchups arent that bad. If you wanna see a bad matchup? Watch Fchamp vs Kaneblueriver when all the drama started. When he played Magneto and pushed that man Haggar away the entire match and ran just to prove a point that the character sucked and couldn't touch him if he tried. Haggar by no means sucks but thats an example of a bad matchup. These types of matchups dont exist in FighterZ. The game is pretty balanced. The "worst" characters in this game are still waaaay better than the worst characters in many other fighting games.
Yeah, Goku Black is functionally a complete character. His kit is finished and even has a fair bit of utility. Goku Black is perfectly capable of "playing DBFZ", which makes him leagues better then, say, SSBM Bowser or MVC1 Roll. Imo there is a significant difference between a character with sound design but is undertuned compared to the rest of the cast and a character who has a fundamentally flawed design for the game they are in. Goku Black is firmly in the former box.
Ah yes, I was a diehard Tager main in the early Blazblue games. It was depressing going against the games many strong zoners when you are a massive hurtbox that can't dash BUT it was satisfying landing Genesic Emerald Tager Buster and taking like 60% of Rachel's lifebar with that grab super.
@@WaterZer0 He did get better but more by virtue of there being more new characters who just happened to be bad against him specifically regardless of their overall power against the rest of the cast. He still had his usual problems against the zoners and top tiers who didn't need to commit to going in. Rachel, Arakune, Lambda, Carl and Hazama have consistently been problem matchups for him in almost every installment even when those characters were a bit less powerful than some of their earlier incarnations and with Tager getting gradually more tools but not enough to completely fix these matchups. On the flip side there was a time where Makoto and Noel in Continuum Shift 2 were easily the best characters in the entire game with no real bad matchups against anyone except for Tager and against each other being even. Tager sucked against a lot of the cast but was funnily enough good against those 2 specific top tiers.
Your right I have blaz blue central fiction and tager concept is good but if you don't know how to deal with him. He legit lives up to his name red devil
Agreed. In fact, in later installations of the series, where they gave him more tools to deal with his weaknesses, his design really gets to shine. Probably one of, if not the best designed grappler in any fighting game
Arc was well-aware of Iron Tager's general weaknesses as a classic grappler, that being mid-to-long range. Spark Bolt and his Magnetism gimmick show that they tried to make him a less vulnerable choice against pretty much anyone else in the roster. But they didn't consider his options of retaliation on higher ranges. Outside of his 2D, he has literally no mobility options, and clever players can use his magnetism to their advantage and get their hitboxes just pulled into his face. A sitting duck can hit as hard as a truck, but if the opponent can just sit outside and do whatever without interference, that sitting duck is just a duck. By Centralfiction, he's still kinda boned against any projectile-user, but not quite as frustratingly so as he was in Calamity Trigger. Guilty Gear's Potemkin, by direct comparison, has no projectiles, but a variety of mobility options and super-armored specials to break through many moves, but he takes a lot of practice and patience. That's why tag fighters are so important nowadays, at least for newcomers. It allows people to compensate for weaknesses in their mains with sheer cleverness and skill, meaning you get more varied matchups in online play, at tournaments, and even on the couch with your friends. And I say that as someone who despises tag fighters.
But dude, you should do a series on the dumb shit from bb. I remember seeing you do a lot of dumb shit like the makoto infinite a day after she came out at rils place.
I feel a good one would be on matchups in general. Feels like I see too many people go "Z Broly vs Frieza" is a 9-1 matchup without knowing what that is. But anyway, low tiers in this game are basically just in a "Not as good" tier.
Tiers matter, but not as much as the player. Tiers only tell you how much you have to work at a character. The severity difference is from game to game and, more importantly, is expounded by factors that can never be consistent
I crossed this video and have since dropped off playing fighting games, but I remember playing Astraroth a lot back during this game launch/life span (around 8k matches using tager only by the time CS was coming out). The forums that I was a mod for complained alot about Tager being the most op character ever; a few of us that was on DL and that site, tried to explain the approaching and how bad bursting the first time something goes wrong was a bad idea basically was ignored. I really enjoyed this game back in the day.
And games like tekken dont have bad characters Just simple and complex ones Ironically all the top tiers are the simples in tekken unless a complex character is overtuned
tager mains suffered through all of that in bbct just to get those glorious tager busters. i remember seeing threads upon threads of people complaining about tager being OP back then. and here i was, the degenerate that used nu as indicated by my profile pic. good times.
The way I see it, most fighting game characters fall into 5 tiers of balance: overpowered, strong, balanced, weak, and dysfunctional. Most characters are going to fall into the middle 3 tiers simply due to how strong they inately are in the context of their games. And you very rarely see characters end up Overpowered or Dysfunctional in a modern fighters since it's way easier to balance modern fighting games.
@Corbin Page @Nobody comments are not funny you troglodyte I said "very rarely" for a reason. It definitely still happens, just not a constant stream of them like with old school fighters.
Me, who've played Twelve in 3rd strike for years: Bold words, I see u chose the safe option with "probably". Whenever u hit someone with a full screen projectile and get punished by chun li... thats when ur a "bad character"
The thing about Tager and another low tier A.B.A was that even if they are low tier, once they touched you, you are in a VORTEX that you cannot escape.
@Nobody comments are not funny you troglodyte Your point? GN Fangs are melee remotes. Only thing we had before that were missile funnels and Super DRAGOONs, which aren't popular. BuT mUh UnIvErSaL cEntUry LoOk Im 60 YeArs OlD
The difference is that since DBFZ characters all have strong universal mechanics and little differentiation, the power differences matter more for the worse characters that just have better versions of themselves. In BBCT, there is no "better Tager" why there are multiple characters who could qualify as "Better SSJ Goku". It's easier to make a balanced game when characters are more similar, but then the balance differences matter more as why choose Character A when Character B does what they want to do in almost the exact same way but better?
People who think Black in FighterZ is some bottom tier unusable piece of garbage have never tried playing Ganondorf in any Smash game after Melee. I sincerely wish Ganondorf was even remotely as good as Black in FighterZ. Dude can't even breach D TIER after THREE GAMES. My man is literally G tier in 4 and Brawl. *G Tier.* At least Goku Black has an actual neutral game and doesn't get obliterated off of one hit. FighterZ is such an amazingly balanced game and so many people who's first or only FG is FighterZ don't even know it.
To this day I remember back when I was new to following fighting games, in BBCS times (The sequel to this game) there was a tournament match between one of the best known Tager mains (US) vs some guy using Hazama (For those who dont know, Hazama is a character with insane mobility even for BB standards) and the match was so one sided that the Tager main just ragequit after being kited around the stage for like 50 secs. It was shocking seeing how the guy playing Hazama had total control over how the match was played, probably could have easily landed 2-3 hits and ran away from Tager until timeout.
'Bad' characters don't exist in DBFZ. Even Goku Black and Zamasu aren't so bad that they are unplayable. You can still play them and win. Difficult but possible.
If ur good enough u can win with any characters doesnt mean in comparison to the other characters they arent bad. I agree no character is unplayable in DBFZ but ur gimping urself if ur trying to compete with good players with good teams.
@@Joshua-yc9cv Yes, gimping=putting a handicap on something. I love Goku Black, and main him but playing just about anyone else would be better for me. Not unplayable, but when people say he's "bad" they mean he's someone you wouldn't pick first if you want an easier time.
I'm so glad you covered this topic. DBFZ is the first fighting game for some of my friends and they swear the bottom tiers are bad characters, to which I always disagree with "no they're not bad, just painfully average compared to what the rest of the cast has and were never brought up to speed".
CT Tager was really a bad character, if not, purely experimentation (Not sure if it was this version where most of his whiffs and blocks had noticeable negative frame advantage). Now, CF Tager is a beast with how updated the character is.
2:36 I remember hear some of that for BB and P4A. Good times. Edit: maybe this is just me but calling that ‘bad’ is an understatement. More like horrendous.
Tager is one of those characters where if you remove one singular move he is without a doubt the worst character in fighting game history. In particular it's Spark Bolt. The move itself is ridiculous, big damage, magnetizes, fast, priority out the ass, combo starter, etc. It's also the _only option_ he has to get a far away opponent closer to him when they're not magetized. Meaning if it was gone matchups like Nine, Nu13, Arakune, and even Hakumen of all characters would all be legitimately impossible to beat. They'd just out range you to death.
Oh my god! I was laughing way too hard at this entire video. Even if this is talking about the difference between "bad characters" and bad characters it was still funny and got the point across very well! I'd love to see one for an actually broken character/s compared to a Dragonball character! Regardless thank you for the fantastic content and hope the rest of your day goes well!
Same i feel like his mix isn't really but has strong defensive mix and some mix with assist that cover his flip and obviously in my opinion best neutral in the game
My favorite bad character is Khan from the jojo fighting game because his biggest problem is that most of his specials and all but 4 of his normals are unusably bad, but 2 of those normal are really good and make up a workable rushdown gameplan by themselves, so he's the easiest character in the game. His 2A is a really fast, really long low poke. His jC is a fast, high attack with a huge hitbox in front and below Khan. Most of playing khan is just rotating between those two options repeatedly in both neutral and offense, and running around. But unfortunately for him he's in a kusoge game which has B tiers who can loop unblockables so he's C tier.
Jojo has a lot of interesting characters that would be cool to cover in a video. I think Dio is really interesting since he's universally agreed to be high tier but has some of the worst moves in the entire game and "no mix."
Iron Tager was my main in BlazBlue CT back in the day. I can totally relate to everything that was said in this video. I remember Bang, Ragna and, V-13 and Litchi were top tier back then. With Bang and V-13 being the two most extreme cases like SS tier or GOD tier.
To be fair, Broly had tones of Super Armor and his own Projectiles enabled him to be a Zoner himself. Nu - 13 in CT was difficult in the Casual and Middle game but once you got to Top play, her advantages became less advantageous.
BB WAS THE DAYS MAN, I used to run into you on ranked a lot back in the CS days. Good times. didnt know who you were back then just knew your tag and that you were a good player.
This is a problem the fgc created. People are so black and white about everything and always divides things into good or bad, players characters games doesn’t matter. So when you hear this character is on the weaker end of the roster you’re conditioned to think “oh so they’re bad” instead of actually learning the character or game.
I agree. Some characters simply have worse, absent or bad tools, and that's fine. Fortunately I play strictly casually, so all characters are viable on my level.
I hear your words and they make sense, but the video makes Tager look way better than season 2 bottom tiers in dbfz. I would like that arakune video though and just videos talking about other janky characters and concepts
I find it funny that BBCT is mentioned for the version of Tager being bad (which I agree) and yet with a local tourney one of my friends went to he made it to semis with him, knocking out a lot of the competition (even Nu-13 somehow).
I couldn't for the life of god beat my friend playing Tager without a zoner and we were the same level overall. It's definitely unbalanced as all hell, but not to an extent it's really a huge example of a bad character, as it's still playable in casual. Maybe Smash, MvC and Samsho are better examples of extreme character unbalance
It's crazy how a character with a full screen beam, a divekick, a command grab, and a teleport is considered bottom tier. Compared to other games so many characters kill for that kit. Love the old BB footage you should show more of these
It’s because his dive kick isn’t plus on block and his command grab is trash. Literally ALL they have to do to make goku black good is make his command grab faster. Make it at least 24 frames, buff his ex teleport so he can choose what side he appears on and make his dive kick plus on block. He’d instantly become high A tier/low S tier
I played fighting games before patches and tried to main Roy in melee. I know what a bad character is. I also know what an abysmal character is. I also know what going to school, telling everybody you are good at a game because you beat your brother, going to their house and losing 50 literal games in a row Roy vs Marth matchup, while your friend laughs at you and says "I thought you were good at this game" is.
Its always weird how the grapplers in anime fighters have the strangest balancing lol, like potemkin went from being worse than xrd tier in #reload, to top 5 in base AC, all the way back down to bottom 1 again in Xrd, and now he's like top 5 again in strive lol. Its so weird
every time a new big fighting game comes out, a generation of people who played some of the oldest games just die out, there are so many people playin the new GG or fighterz that havent played a fighter older than sfv's launch
I feel as if people forget the lowest tier pros usually use is B and best is S+ or is a special tier like GODS: ui goku, jirens counter, broly super armor and a good kid buu
It feels like I'm going crazy, but I can seem to find footage of tournaments of BBCT to save my life. Used to play with my siblings all the time, but never got the chance to play online and put in work. But yeah we never played target on account of how much he got bodied by nu-13 lol.
It's really cool the fighterz exists and that Yamaha can win tournaments. In other dragonball games the characters are wildly unbalanced. Trying to win with apule in xenoverse is impossible. Budikai, tenkaichi, raging blast, various other dragon ball games trying to win with the bad characters is as much of an uphill battle as their power levels in the show. They have huge rosters but like everyone is going to be obsolete compared to goku, vegeta and a handful of the strongest characters in the show.
I always find it weird when people consider grapplers trash tier but also act like they are overpowered too. Its a different gameplay style meant to disrupt the natural flow that just isnt for everyone.
Oddly enough I had seen that match of you years back. I enjoyed BB quite a bit but dropped it on CS2 to return to GG. I played Tager in Blazblue CT and that character is a struggle bus. I think him being bad is overstated he wasn't as bad as people said he was that said he did have legit 8-2 and 7-3 match ups which in all practical purposes are unwinnable. I did beat weaker players in bad match ups pretty often even mu 13 and rachel which were horrid match ups some of the worst I have ever played in any game. I'd still pick tager again because I enjoyed him and I embrace the struggle of bad characters.
Central Fiction is the last iteration of the mainline games and you can get it for pretty cheap during a sale on Steam. The netcode is old Arcsys delay-based stuff, so I find it hard to recommend when +R has better online play. Great game besides that though.
Just saying, I never knew what a good character was until I played SFIIT Vega. I don’t even complain about top tiers in games really because I think of all the Gief’s I’ve high-low crushed.
My man, loved the video but I think your audio could be improved! Main thing i hear is lots of plosives so an easy and quick fix would be to move the mic a bit farther away! Makes it sound a bit more consistent and a bit more profesh - love, a scrub and audio engineer