@@lpanebr good question. It’s essentially just putting a &sl toggle inside a macro for your layer switching. You can see it in use for my 18 key layouts here on the second layer and second caps layer switches github.com/benvallack/zmk-config-piano/blob/main/config/boards/shields/piano/piano.keymap
I'm told it's actually quite hard to sync your foot taps with your key taps (with your fingers). As humans we're quite good at syncing up our finger movements, but our feet aren't included in those neural pathways.
I’d love to see you something along the lines of a typing test on this, especially where we can see how fast you are using this method. That’s my biggest concern about switching to a smaller key layout, is losing my speed of typing.
I love seeing people actually sharing in depth details about how they're implementing their builds, not just "how to." Some great ideas in this, even if I don't go down to 34 keys myself.
I'm a miryoku / colemak addict but this looks pretty rad. Manna Harbour has an old branch where it only activates home row mods when you hit a key on the opposite side so rolling is no longer a problem. Very cool.
absolutely love your videos exploring ergonomic keyboards; it’s always interesting seeing how other people approach layouts, layers, and keyboards and I think i’ll be implementing some of these ideas in my own qmk config.
Very interresting. Could you please explain how you select text (either per character or per word), I do not see a shift key on the arrow layer (I am coming from windows, where you do shift left to select text from your current position to the one on the left). Following that, I would do a Ctrl+X or C (for cut or copy), then some navigation, then Ctrl + V. It might be good to type some programing (we can slow down the video if we can't keep up) to demonstrate the layout in different scenarios. Very interresting video. Thanks for sharing.
@@alexdubois6585 Yeah will cover all this in a vid for sure. Basically you trigger shift first, then jump into the system layer as a toggle with three finger combo on top row right hand. From there you can use alt (combo on left hand) or cmd (right thumb) to modify the arrows too. Copy and paste are both in the system layer too. Top row index for copy, hold it down to paste. cmd+tab can also be invoked in that layer and the arrow keys can then be used to switch apps. So a select from one app and paste into another is quite nicely supported actually.
I think the combination of not knowing where my keys are with VIM would be pandemonium. Do you not suffer a massive drop in productivity when you’re switching layouts all the time?
in my experience I tend to adjust to symbols/mod key changes more quickly than changes to the overall letter layout. I think that's because the symbols and other function keys are used more rarely and that allows you to place them in nice logical groups. But there is still a small adjustment period.
I have found that once I learn a new layout, if I leave most of my vim bindings on the same letters it’s actually pretty easy to just use the new location for them. I remap the hjkl positions so they’re in the same place obviously but the rest I just use them in the new position. Changing layouts is a big deal though and not something I want to do again. I used holidays to blitz learning them previously to avoid the productivity hit.
I've finished my 36 keys and started with home row mods. My switches are kailh black so I'm experiencing fatigue and roll mistriggering modded keys just as you've described. I'm now waiting for blue switches and will experiment with switchable lawyers. Your journey and videos have been a great companion! At first I didn't understand all but as I experimented and came back to them more and more made sense. I'm very grateful to you. Thank you. PS: I'd love a vim video with your current keyboard!
now imagine a key cap with the characters you are typing, with 2 color LED, the transparent character filter the color of each LED, when you switch layout it changes the color of the LED so you now have a dynamic keyboard with interchangeable character on.
Whoa, great idea for the color switching Also, I've seen some tiny split keyboards like this but wireless. I haven't had a wire on a keyboard for 10 years and I'm not looking to go back to wires.
Oh no, get well soon! You can see my progress on my ZMK config commit history actually, I have added some keys back now (26 total now) but will go into all that in the video.
@@BenVallackWe’re ok, esp. mild for kids. Thx for sharing your zmk history. Your idea of moving Z to comma is unassailable. Moving Y is trickier because of potential SFBs but I wish you every success - its left-pinky position in ISRT isn’t great; but I suppose it’s the same position as in MTGAP, which some have long enjoyed
I'd love to see the vim specific video! Particularly I'd love to see how you handle keys that have a specific spatial relationship in qwerty. For instance, should I remap movement in vim to be whatever the right hand homerow keys are in my layout to maintain that muscle memory, or use hjkl no matter where they are?
I have never used a non qwerty layout, but would definitely want to accompany such a drastic change with spatially remapped hjkl (to whatever the keys on my home row right hand are)
My 34-36 keys layout is a modified version of miryoku layout which I moved mod-tap keys to 3rd row, and used 2 keys combo on top and home row for Esc, BS, Tab (left hand) and some common symbols (right hand) like quote, dquote, question mark... Mod keys appeared in all of my layer for 2 hands and at the same position. Left thumb 1 is Space + Number combined with Nav in the same Layer, left thumb 2 is Esc + Media Layer. Right thumb 1 is BS + Symbols layer, Right thumb 2 is Enter + FN layers. It may be slower for hold switch compare to tab switch layer, but I feel it is more natural to memorize the functions of all layers.
I managed to actually build my Ferris Sweep and I love it. My productivity dropped massively for now, but I expected that and I'm still figuring out the right layout for me. Anyway, I'd be highly interested in your VIM setup/workflow. Thanks for the quality stuff you're doing! Cheers!
Great video! I arrived at very similar conclusions with my (36key) layout. I have Ctrl and Shift on dedicated thumb keys and Alt+GUI in other layers. (I use mostly windows and Linux) I don't like home row mods, because the letters on modded keys are send to OS on key up vs key down and my brain just didn't like the inconsistency in delay between regular and modded keys. And your previous video inspired me to organise layer switchich in a way that I can always come to baselayer regardles where I am.
The Atreus was my first introduction to reduced-key split keyboards, and it blew my mind how much you can do with so few keys. Recently I've wanted to build an even more ergonomic keyboard, and your videos are full of amazing insights that I've been looking for, very inspirational. Keep up the awesome work :D
I found this channel because I wasn't logged into RU-vid on someone elses computer and saw a barefoot shoe video. Now RU-vid is recommending lots of Ben Vallack videos. 😆
Great video! Would love to see a video on why you prefer ISRT over Colemak and other layouts. Have you considered combos in place of home row mods? I moved to them and am liking it a lot more, less misfires. And no bluetooth on this one?
My solution for home row mods is the combo home row mod. The idea is that you press the home row key on both hands simultaneously and then you release it on one hand, but still keep it depressed with the other hand. This means that there is no accidental rollover and no forced delay.
Also holy shit I am surprised at your subscriber count. This is million view level quality man.
2 года назад
This was quite elucidating. I'm quite focused on layouts that can do everything - general use, terminal, Vim, gaming, etc - across all three major desktop OSes, so the idea of using ultra-compact layouts like this always seems like a bridge too far. It was really interesting to see how you approached life with 34 keys. I love the design of the dual-thumb "there's no place like home" incantation - very intuitive and elegant. You also helped me realise there is value to having separate layers for "fire once" commands and repeated ones such as backspace.
This is nice! I recently bought the ZSA Moonlander and although it has taken a few days to get used to, I'm already loving it. This 34 key layout would make a nice super portable version of that.
Awesome. Everything you do is completely different from my setup and will be a reference if I ever decide to dive beneath the 42 keys line. Chiefly tap/holds. I should start using these on every special character. I suppose I'll still mostly use combos, which IMO is the most effective way to "thicken" a small layout without sacrificing usability. Note to the wise: homerow mods are a pain, but homerow combo mods (like D+F for alt, S+D for ctrl,...) work pretty well and I've never had a misfire, even when monkeytyping. PS : also congrats on the production quality. Everything from the graphics to the narration pace and the general organisation feels smooth and well put together, overall very pleasant.
Agree combos are awesome, started using them on my smaller layout, I sort of got to the 34 point based on my Oryx layouts which is why combos are absent. But now I getting happy with ZMK I am seeing the power of combos for sure. Tap holds plus combos are quite the powerhouse.
Nice. I’m still using a 32 key layout on the planck as a daily driver, so just one key per thumb. Definitely not missing a full size keyboard. In fact, I 3d printed a “shelf” that sits on top of the laptop built-in keyboard so I can set the planck on top of it when on the go. Looking forward to how a 24 key layout will work for you. I use emacs native bindings, so it might be harder for me. I might have to switch to Emacs evil mode at some point.
@@meeself My modifiers are on the home row and duplicated for each hand. So I hold the three fingers down to access those modifiers with either hand. If I hold down all four then I get the Hyper key that I use for many of my Keyboard Maestro macros on the mac.
@@bluefaolan probably so. It was a big step for me to go from a full size keyboard to the planck at the beginning of Ben's video series. It was also the most I ever spent on a keyboard, so I tried just removing some keycaps from the planck and use the wide layout where the two middle columns are not used. I'm considering getting another keyboard so I will check those suggestions out.
Great video! Love seeing people's different approaches to small layouts, I'm very curious to see what this 24 layout looks like. I would recommend taking a look at caps word (basically a self cancelling caps lock) if you're not already aware of it, but it sounds like you're moving to ZMK and their PR for that seems to be on the back burner for now. Either way I think it would work well with your reduced holding philosophy.
Great video & production quality, something I think would help at around 7:40 would be highlighting each set of keys as you talk about them to make it easier to follow
I can't believe it, but you've done it again, Ben; I am attempting to teach myself yet another keyboard layout. lol. I think that qwerty is probably still going to win out for me, but I am attempting IRST because it seemed like an interesting idea and, after a few preliminary lines of text, I think I could find myself looking forward to learning it, unlike ColemakDH.
For me, 35 keys would be ideal. I am very happy with how I have optimized my Ferris 2 Bling. To explain it simply, the thumb keys from left to right are switch layer, ctrl/enter, shift/space, and alt/bkspc. The latter becomes delete on the second layer, which i would like available on both, hence my desire for a 35 key keyboard. On my 2nd layer, the top row is numbers, but for ergonomics, it goes 8901234567. Works quite well once you're used to it. the other keys on the left hand are arrows and below them home, pg up/dn, end. I have the mouse stuff set up on the right hand, directional on the home row then lower index, middle & ring are the mouse buttons. To drag a window you have to cheat with the thumb on the lower right index key. There are more nuances but that's the basics from half a year of trial and error. Quite happy with it. Having shift/space as one key takes a bit of getting used to, but once you have it's fine.
That is an interesting layer switching style. Line up the layers sequentially under the same key, with a different key serving as return-to base-from all of them. Number of taps is the layer you want to go to. No need for additional keys. I will give that idea a try.
I'm loving my ferris sweep, mod-tap, tri layer activation all help to give me every single key I'll ever need in such a tiny form factor, looking to make a wireless version soon with the leftover pcb's I have to make it super easy to travel with
Thanks, learned a lot in this video and the quality of your production is great! I was thinking to ask about the typing experience and a comparison of GergoPlex vs Sweep, but after reading the comments I think I'll wait for the next video! :)
Do you miss not having Command + key on the long press of said key? I find it very intuitive and satisfying to copy, paste and close tabs with one press, especially when I'm mousing with the other hand (for casual web browsing, or Photoshop). I'm not sure I'd give that up for having non-chorded modifiers. But pressing a thumb key plus a home row letter repeatedly hasn't become an ergonomics issue for me yet, as I remember it becoming for you.
Yeah the command tap hold idea is something I may well revisit. I think I went away from it when I had firmware size issues on the Corne. Don’t think there is any such issue with ZMK on the nice!nanos though.
Your best video yet Ben. My head is still spinning. When you talk about the double tap on the thumb keys to return you to layer 1, can you explain a bit more about how you have done that. How are those keys set up in QMK?
So all I mean there is that if I hit the right thumb key followed by the left one, it just so happens that in any layer that will always get you back to layer 1. It’s more a result of the layer design than anything fancy going on.
@@DanielASchaeffer Yeah some of the time for sure, that’s what it’s there for I guess but it does highlight how it isn’t easy to stay aware of which layer you are in all of the time.
discovered this channel from the barefoot shoes video, now seeing you are a pretty invested keyboard enthusiast! that's great as I was researching the low profile keys and custom builds on my own for a while now. currently using a regular 65% keyboard and not finding browser tab switching hotkeys hard to press, once I realized I can use ctrl+pgup/pgdown that is , very convenient with two hands
Shame the LED doesn’t change color to show the layer. I’m currently working on a 34 key version of my 30 key unsplit Hummingbird keyboard, and will definitely try out your layout when it arrives.
"Found out that going to less keys to be beneficial" -- I'm not down this rabbit hole as far as you are yet, but I've found something similar. I was very worried about going to a 40% keyboard that I was going to be missing keys. I built a corne, and have found that the inner thumbs are useless (they are too far to reach), and that the extra columns for the pinkies are also mostly wasted. I do use the shift on the left, but that's just habit, I can see me doing away with those columns altogether. I am going to try some of your layout tips, as I do find chording the layers a bit annoying too. But... man, now it looks like I"m going to have to "invest" even more money/time into keyboards seeing your newer videos on building your own starting from the PCB. One quick question: why don't these keyboards need diodes?
Do you actually see an impact of all this? For example, I’d be interested to see a comparison and your thoughts on typing on something like this, vs trying out again a standard (decent) keyboard
Ya, designing layouts is a very interesting thing. Thanks for making this video. Your video is very imformative and useful. I've got my 1st crkbd (on last Sat), and it's my 1st 40%. Now I am designing the layouts (and learn). In this video you tell me the principle of designing a good layout. Very helpful. (I don't understand the content before I go my crkbd (a.k.a. the hardware), even using Anne Pro 2 and Gk64XS have a concept of layer. Having a crkbd on hand now and even I've just used it for 3 days, I am able to understand the contents of the video , lol.)
Glad to see you enjoying the Ferris Sweep (and that I may have been the one who alerted you to it). I love the simplicity and accessibility of the build etc.. Your thoughts and principles of layout design seem very logical and inspiring. Personally I'm still held back by the lack of TrackPoint. I feel crippled without one, having to leave the keyboard for mouse activity. Perhaps one day I'll integrate one into a Ferris. Though I wonder if I could be comfortable with a Ploopy Nano trackball.
Excellent video! You've (almost) convinced me that this is something just for me. I love your idea of layer switching (including the fall-back double-stroke). One thing I'd like to hear is why you've went for ISRT instead of Colemak DH. I've tried Colemak (briefly) and like the IE and ST progression. After watching a couple of your videos I'm sure there is a solid explanation - and I'd love to hear it. I'm also not getting how modifiers works (command/option) - is it long-press? The other thing that scares me a bit is how I'll get my local language diacritics like ąłżźć etc?
I tried ISRT and immediately it made even more sense to me than Colemak DH so I stuck with it. I think you will know within half an hour of testing it if you want to stick with it. Yeah home row mods are a long hold (200 ms) to get them to behave like mods.
Based on letters frequency in Lithuanian, you can fit more than 98 % of the keystrokes on the first layer with 28 keys (according to "Raidžių dažnių lietuvių ir kitose kalbose, vartojančiose lotyniškus rašmenis, analizė").
Ben, you really need to learn about combos. They're magical. Forget about tap-dances, alphas on mod-taps, nested layers... You've got plenty of *very* comfortable space on you base layer if you press two keys at once, and you won't even feel the difference when typing normally. Do give them a try!
Have spent a lot of time testing combos. I have a few still but mostly I’ve gone back to one shots and home row mods to avoid the impact on rolls that combos have. The latter point is related to what layout you’re using of course.
@@BenVallack even on Coleman-dh with lots of rolls, I’ve been having very few problems with combos, having set a fairly short combo term (30 for the default, and even shorter for some that caused problems). Of course this is all very subjective, but to me they brought a huge QoL improvement over layers and other solutions, after spending a bit of time setting them up just right
Noooooo! I just got to 25 wpm on Colemak DH on the moonlander… further down the rabbit hole I go ;) Hoping you create a video on ISRT in the future. So many people seem curious as to that layout. Thank you for all the fantastic content you provide Ben. My slowly dissipating RSI appreciates you.
Hello Ben! Really enjoying the ISRT learning process and progress. Thank you for helping with my keyboard journey. I'm curious about how you handle vim commands with numbers in front of them. Do you hit one layer switch to symbols, another layer switch to numbers, hit the numbers, switch back to base layer and type the command? Example: 23J (go down 23 lines).
What I do is put the L1 key over ctrl on the base layer. That way you don't need to worry about outputting anything when trying to go back to L1 if you're already there because ctrl by itself doesn't do anything. Simpler than the two thumb tap.
That repeatable layer switching is genius. I think I would have to adapt this slightly for my needs, typing hexadecimal numbers looks a bit fiddly. Thanks for sharing
Feels a lot like driving stick, when you get into it, you don't need to keep track of what gear you're on, but when you need to, you can always wiggle the stick.
Can you briefly describe why you're moving to ISRT? I'm planning on taking the holidays to finally move away from QWERTY, and was planning on colmak-dh but now I'm super curious about ISRT.
Thank you! I didn’t think about that I config the keyboard like this. I will still use full TKL keyboard, but this open up more option to configure the layout for different purpose.
> The keyboard cant tell if your typing the keys or rolling Let's throw some AI at this. QMK is already obsolete. We need crypto on each hands (two signing keys per set!), and we need structured data flow between the keyboard and some external server (on the workstation or not), with an AI to figure out what we want: it could even figure out which language we're trying to express. We need to drop analog cables, so we need a new port, a single twisted pair that is uber thin and small, and only does data. No more external powering: the keyboard should be able to run for hours on a tiny battery (hot swappable of course!). Things are about to get really weird and fun. Your videos rock. Hope we can collaborate when my project takes off into micro-territory. I used nvim for years (and kakoune), but had to switch to emacs because of lisp, so I totally get where you're at. Thank you brother! 🙏
Any chance you could do a video on your switch to Colemak to ISRT? I also code in Vim, but I never learned how to properly touch type. I have a Moonlander on the way and I'm attempting to go with a non-QWERTY layout, cold turkey. I'd really love your feedback, even if you just shoot me a reply/comment. Thanks!
Going from Colemak to ISRT is pretty easy on the whole. It was surprisingly easy to pick up. I have done a mini series on the channel about learning new layouts which might have some tips too.
I tried Ben Vallack's layer switching but found it too confusing. I kept getting lost. I am now using one shot layers for my number/symbol and navigation/other layers and it is working well. I did end up keeping a dedicated layer for a mouse mode with mouse navigation on the right hand and some useful complimentary buttons like copy and paste for my left hand.
Salute to another vim user! I've been using the Planck for the last year, largely after discovering it through your videos. I'd love to try a minimal split board, but I wish they could make them totally wireless.
The dream is real. I’m currently using something a bit special. Super affordable, super tiny, split, totally wireless. Stay tuned. Will be a few videos away.
Love your videos as always. I would like to explore this layout on the moonlander, and I really appreciate that you recreated it in oryx, except it seems to be an inverted version? Is there a regular one?
Yeah that one is inverted, don’t think I did this the right way around actually. At this size I think it’s better inverted though. Just a pain to get your head around in Oryx!
I really appreciate your videos documenting your journey & your thought process on workflow optimization with keyboard interface / layouts. So far, I type on Dvorak and have used different versions of Microsoft's ergonomic keyboards. I'm wanting to take the next step - going for an Ergodox. What advice do you have for folks getting started following down the trail of learning layers / optimizing layouts & ergo's for simplification & minimizing finger travel?
Learning new keyboard layouts is always hard and i wish there was a solution that makes it easier. I thought about it for a while and when i saw this video, your editing, to explane the layers you used, was the solution i was looking for. Do you know of a way to overlay your keyboard layers life in mac or even vim?
I'm just starting with my 42 keys split keyboard for Vim. So that were very useful and sensible advices. Thank you! For now I'll try to stick only to 2 layers and 2nd layer will be activated on hold. Yeah, it'll require some combinations, but I try to arrange it the way that fingers return back home without looking at the keyboard. The thing that really scares me is the amount of time I have to spend working/training/learning with a new keyboard to start typing at least at previous speed. What if I don't like the layout ?
@@BenVallack quick software based question... how did you load key layout for ISRT on macOS and ipadOS? (ir still waiting on my gergoplex as well)... I didn't see file for it in the Notgate's repo.
Now, a year later, what, in your mind, is the "ideal" keyboard/layout for most people? I understand that this could be different from person to person based on individual needs, but as I've never used anything other than a standard QWERTY keyboard, I'm looking for a good starting point to jump into something more efficient (I'm running Windows, if that makes a difference). As a side note, are you aware of anything like a small, low-key-count keyboard like this that is also a mouse? Thinking it could be efficient to avoid moving one's hand from the keyboard to the mouse by using the keyboard as a mouse, as I transition back and forth quite a lot.
Ideal for most people is probably the 36 key layout. It’s small enough for an efficient reduction in finger movement but big enough with enough thumb keys for direct layer switching too. It’s a very logical place to stop falling down the rabbit hole! There are various projects with rollerballs embedded but I haven’t managed to setup something up yet.
Am I being thick or the way you have this setup, you would need 3 presses just to get a number? (Two layers and a number). So to write something like a1b you need 1 tap for ‘a’, 3 taps for ‘1’, one tap to exit the number layer, then one tap for ‘b’? So you need 6 taps for what on a normal keyboard takes 3?
This is an amazing video. You somehow hit all my niche interests perfectly :) Here's a question that I hope you can answer - if I want to optimize my "keyboard usage" (mostly for fun), what would be a good first/next step? I have some experience with homegrown weird keyboard hacks, and recently switched to a Moonlander, so now I can start taking advantage of more options. So to take my game to the next level, what would give me the biggest "bang for the buck"? 1. Switching to utilizing Moonlander layers more, home-row-mods, etc, but not going all the way to a 36 key layout. 2. Going all-in on a 36-key layout? 3. Going even more all-in on a 34-key layout? 3. Kind of orthogonal to the above, but another option - learning Colemak or something similar? Btw, have you ever considered trying steno for typing?
Thanks! I would ditch qwerty. I am using ISRT now but Colemak DH is good. I have done some other videos on those. Start using layers more to reduce awkward finger positions, you can just do that bit by bit. I have tried steno; I can’t really get past the issue of it not working on the iPad or phone so am just continuing to optimise a normal board for now.
@@BenVallack Thanks! Yeah Steno feels like an interesting thing to learn but much harder than anything else. I've taken to writing mini-text-expansions for common words (e.g. "sp; -> supposedly"), but this isn't scaling very well. Do you think it's better to learn ISRT than Colemak DH? I kind of randomly started learning Colemak without much thought cause you were using it, but if I'm doing this I might as well choose the "best" layout.
To me ISRT felt immediately better than DH. I would give it a go and see how it feels for you. There are loads of these highly optimised layouts that have materialised since DH originally appeared and they all do lots of interesting things.
Nice explanation and wonderful job with the thought process. I don’t see angle brackets or function keys. I assume you don’t use those? Coder here too but I use JetBrains tools - not a fan of vim.
::Ben:: Hey man, another great video. I am still going to look through the 28 key layout that you sent me. I can't believe that you want go down even further than that. I think that 41, or maybe 34, could be the smallest I could go without losing some amount of my sanity. Also, once again, you have me questioning my qwerty addiction. lol. I thought that learning another layout would be worse than just keeping qwerty, but now that you've switched yet again--I am considering giving it another shot. Something about having that coma in the pinky position on the right hand, with the period below it, looks intriguing. I am interested in trying to figure out how to best streamline some of my layer habits and maybe switching to toggles rather than momentary layers might be the thing that I need to do. I suppose that time will tell on that account. I cannot wait to see what you come up with next. I'll email you later on tonight, most likely, about some of my other thoughts that I have been having regarding our previous discussion.
Cheers and good luck! Yeah I think it’s a case of goals, if you don’t have a pressing need to go to a super small layout for reasons of reducing finger movement or portability I don’t think the reward would justify the effort.
This is so cool! Thanks for sharing! I was wondering where you ordered you ferris keyboard from? I bought a couple of nice!nanos recently and have been thinking about switching to a minimal layout for a long time!
I tweaked the Kicad files from here then uploaded a new Gerber file to pcbway.com for them to send me the PCBs. github.com/davidphilipbarr/Sweep/tree/main/Sweep%20Compact More details on the build process in my next video.
Have you considered that instead of double tapping on the enter key that you use the ctrl + M key for enter? I have been wanting to change my backspace and enter key to ctrl + H and ctrl + M. I look forward to the time I get a minimalist keyboard :D
