We need a new anime season back in the dueling academy just so they can spend half of the first season going through the meat and potatoes of the current meta... Hell have old supporting chracters from other seasons as teachers
I never watched GX until the end, but it'd would've been hilarious if there was a duel with Jaden where he tried to do something he thought was a genius move, only for a referee to point out it's against the rules due to some wacko technicality.
@@pollo_470 Farfa really is the memes channel. We got: Bald Jeff Wrong Chain Add more, it's early in the morning, haven't drunk my coffee, can't remember any other memes.
For anyone still struggling with if and when in Optional Effects, here’s the definition that helped me. * If = In the circumstance. * When = At the moment. While you read an optional effect, it’s very useful to replace if/when with their definitions above. Remember, Effects cannot activate in the middle of a RESOLVING chain. So, if a card that says "When this card is Special Summoned: You can..." and it is Summoned in any chain-link of 2 or higher. e.g. "Back to the Front" is chained to the opponent's MST. Chain resolves backwards, you special summon, then the monster has met its requirements, but the chain is resolving so nothing yet happens. Then MST destroys a card. Now that the chain has ended, it ended on “a Spell/Trap card was destroyed” which is not the condition required to activate your monster’s effect. Hope that helps. :)
I really wish Konami would just fix all cards that can miss timing. Its pretty bs when the card meets the conditions for its effect but because of the word “then” it misses it. Would make the game make much more sense and let cards do what they’re supposed to do It’s a total mess and terrible design by Konamis part
Look at it this way.. Monster effects have "speed" the same way spell and traps do. Some are slow like a spell speed 1 magic card, and can only be used during your own maim phase. But some are very fast, and can even be activated during either players turn like a Spell speed 3 MST. Or heres an even clearer example, lets say a card like Ryko the Lightsworn makes you diacard 3 from the top of your deck, problem is you only have 2 cards left in your deck! Ryko being mandatory vs optional would make ALL the difference and would decide the duel. Ryko being mandatory would mwan that you HAVE to discard 3 no matter what and you would lose right then and there. On the other hand, if ryko said "you CAN discard 3 cards, then you could choose not to discard and live another day. So if a card gives you a choice "you can, you may" then it is possible for it to miss timing. Id the card doesnt give you a choice, then it can never miss timing amd will activate on a separate chain.
The Perverted Monk Spell Speeds are the dumbest thing in existence, just write it on the fuckign card when they can be used (like MtG and Instant & Sorcery speed)
Catisreckless It's not intuitive at the very least. If you need a paragraph to explain the speed of different monster effects that are not written on the card it's just bad game design. Missing the timing wouldn't be a thing if it's clear when certain effects activate or not. Just say so on the card if you can only activate it at certain points, which MtG does much simpler and takes less time to explain the intricates of. You have 2 speeds, Sorcery and Instant. Sorcery speed cards and effects can only be activated during your own Main Phase when nothing is on the stack/in the chain and you have priority. Instant speed cards and effects can be activated whenever you have priority and you can activate them unless a card says you can't (Split second for example says that you can't play any other cards after it onto the stack). The stack is much like the chain but you can react with Instant cards at instant speed even in the middle of the stack resolving, like you played a monster, they want to negate it and thus destroy it but in response you can negate their counterspell, but then when the stack starts resolving they cast a second counterspell after their first counterspell has been negated. This works because it's all 1 Casting speed instead of 5 different speeds that can be used at specific different times which just makes the game unnecessarily difficult for newer players. In yu-gi-oh half of your cards you can't activate because they're not the right speed or your opponent activated a counter trap or some stuff that newer players don't care about in the slightest. It's just an unnecessary hurdle to climb over knowing the timing of every single card and monster effect instead of it being just written on the card.
I kinda feel like "if" vs "when" is a little too vague and non-obvious. I feel like it should be errataed such that "When [condition]:" is replaced with "If [condition], and this is the last effect in the chain:"
Thank you so much. For years I've been trying to understand this and just watching this video 1 time helped me understand the infamous "Missing the Timing" ruling
All when’s needs to be errata’d to if’s for simplicity and not having to worry about timing in general I know it sounds petty but it will help clear everything up
Mandatory whens are being errata'd to ifs, actually. It helps clear it up a little bit, since the when vs. if part is completely irrelevant for mandatory effects, and a mandatory effect is closer to an if anyway.
I feel like certain cards like Pinch Hopper needs an errata. I am pretty sure originally it can trigger off if you tribute for a tribute summon, but now miss the timing stuff screws it up.
@@TainyaGaming Missing the timing was a thing that was designed on purpose to make certain cards weaker. Cards that don't miss timing are stronger ( so they're usually balanced out by being more difficult to summon, support a weak archetype, needing more resources to be brought out, etc). Asking for "missing the timing" to be removed is akin to making every card that requires life points to be paid to always cost 500LP; some cards require a higher cost of LP because their effects are usually stronger than cards that require smaller LP cost.
Here's a bit more detail about conjunctions and what they means ( in PSCT, of course, with cards that predate it you just have to pray and hope there's rulings for the card about action timing ): ● "and," "and, if you do," and "also" are all _simultaneous_ conjunctions - that is, if the actions linked by them are the last thing to occur, "when" effects can respond to either action. ● "then" and "also, after that" are both _sequential_ conjuctions. As this video covered, "when" effects can only ever respond to the second action, as it occurs _after_ the first. Note also the simultaneous and sequential terminology; cards like Ryko and Kunai with Chain that allow activating or applying multiple effects also include these terms for much the same purpose, with simultaneous effects allowing "when" effects to respond to either while sequential ( or, specifically, "in sequence" ) effects only allowing "when" effects to respond to the final one. However, note that while there's two categories, there's actually five conjunctions. This isn't actually superfluous, as conjunctions are _also_ important for determining whether or not an effect's actions fizzle or not, namely: ● "and" requires _both_ actions to be able to resolve, otherwise both will fizzle. You can mostly see this with Union monsters, which have to both unequip _and_ Special Summon themselves to "de-unionize," but you can also see it with Gallis the Star Bird, who only burns the opponent if he Special Summons himself ( i.e. your opponent doesn't activate Vanity's in response to you revealing him as a cost ) and vice-versa. ● "and, if you do," and "then" requires the first part to resolve to resolve the second part, but not vice-versa; the Metalfoes monsters' Pendulum effects will not let you search if the monster itself doesn't pop the card ( i.e. you activate it and target your other scale, but your opponent responds with MST and pops it as Chain Link 2 ), but if every piece of Metalfoes backrow is removed from your Deck before the pop resolves, your scale will still pop the card even though you can no longer perform the search. Moving back to Gallis, note that his effect mills the top card of your Deck, _then_ burns and Special Summons him; this means that even if Vanity's gets flipped in response, you still have to mill, unlike what happens with the burn part. ● "also" and "also, after that" are the most lax; as long as the effect resolves, both parts happen to the best of their ability, no matter if the other part is possible or not. Vanity's gets flipped in response to your Goblindbergh? It'll still go into Defense Position. Can't re-Set Scrap-Iron Scarecrow because it got popped by MST after you activated it? Well, you'll still get the attack negated. As you can see, each conjunction is unique in its combination of timing and how much the two parts rely on each other. Knowing this is pretty important to judge an effect properly, as a single different word can radically swing how vulnerable an effect is to disruption as well as how strong it is to disrupt plays. And, as you'd expect from Konami, they've graciously and carefully made it so that learning this in any official manner is a _complete_ pain in the ass, so don't feel too bad if you didn't know anything about this!
When: you can effects has actually been part of the game from the beginning but because the game back then used to be so much slower, it didn't cause any problems, until Yang-Zing came along which is a deck that is apparently has gotten purposely nurfed with all their monsters being "when: you can" that it caused issues in tournaments so ever since then, not many cards are now being printed that can miss timing although for some odd reason, the main deck monsters of Rokkets can miss timing
My guess is it was never konamis intention it worked like this, they just used diffrent text on some cards, but it got caught up in semantics and got popped into existence
It is always good to remember, first in Japanese, then in other languages. This concept was purposedly created by Konami. Japanese is a completely different language from European languages. This difference was always clear to the Japanese players. However, in fact, there were some minstralated cards that are corrected in their next printings because "If and when mandatory effects" are an identical concept and there is no need for two different words.
This is something that's never discussed when playing casually (specifically with friends). So I know we've been playing duels incorrectly due to not applying this rule. Really appreciate this video, cat. 👍🏾
That's not a good reason. It's like saying "I stopped trying to learn math because I could read a chapter and not understand what it was telling me." No matter what the idea is if it requires timing and strategic play then you'll have to look more in depth than just reading the card (or chapter). That goes without saying that the rule book does a horrible job explaining ALL the steps in a turn and ways to chain link. Cimo does a great job at explaining how things should be done and uses examples that clearly show what he is talking about
Trevor Klinebriel Sorry I want just playing a fucking card game if I want to read something I have news paper. In the old days of YuGiOh it wasn‘t as complex as now. The simple style of playing was the reason for yugioh getting popular and trendy. If someone new want to play it they are averse of these long cards description complexity.
Okay I realise that it's the rulings and all, but this all just seems dumb. Let's take the Enemy Controller Dupe Frog example. In my mind, the effect chain would go. Activate Enemy Controller -> Tribute Dupe Frog -> Dupe Frog searches -> Take control of the targeted monster Because that's how the effects would go, you tribute the dupe frog and it says "when" so it should force it's effect into the middle of the Enemy Controller effect because that IS when it's going to the graveyard. Same idea with the Goblinbergh Armageddon knight example. Summons Goblinbergh -> Special Summons Armageddon Knight -> Armageddon Knight dumps -> Goblinbergh switches to defence position. Maybe it's just me, but when I read a "When" in a card text to me that means it forces itself into the chain no matter what. Honestly the current system seems to just create more confusion then it's worth. I mean with how it works Dupe Frog can't really be used for anything other then like Dark Hole fodder. Because from how you explained it, even if you tribute summon with it, it would miss timing because the last thing to happen would be the tribute summoned monster entering the field. I mean I get it can add some strategy to the game, but at the same time it just makes cards that say "when" seem almost worthless. I mean why would I play a card, or deck that can have almost all of it's effects stopped by my opponent using a throw away effect? A card should never have it's effect not go off unless another card is specifically negating that cards effect. But as I said it's the rules so what I think doesn't matter. Though my idea would likely make the game a lot less confusing.
The fundamental rule of "no chains within chains" is why what you're suggesting isn't allowed. But yes this is how it would attempt to activate/resolve if we didnt have that rule.
I rather have: Activate Enemy Controller -> Tribute Dupe Frog -> Take control of the targeted monster-> Dupe Frog searches Because it feels weird to interrup the effect of a single card.
also, what's wrong with blocking? are you salty because your a frog player that keeps getting blocked? Lemme tell you that you have to use another card to block usually (unless you have a "Then" card), so it means your opponent is wasting a resouce to keep yourself from using that resource. It's bascially a trade off, not that bad for neither one of you. Back in the days when MST was 3 in every deck, duuuuuuude forcing your opponent to waste one could potentially mean you could mirror force and go for win (or just magic cylinder for the win).
Tbh, this is actually a really good thing for me to learn because I'm starting to get into yugioh and I'm thinking about competitive wise too. I'll be doing more research about chain links and card readings like this video. I never really knew cards can miss timing based on what occurs last 😶 Thanks for the amazing video Cimo!
this is the only video I've ever watched that actually explains this properly. Most people just say "look for if and when" without explaining WHY something misses timing.
Maximillion Chaoswolf I agree, it adds a lot of complexity to the game with no real benefit. The only potential benefit I can see would be as a way to balance archetypes so that several powerful effects can’t go off at once, but that would require Konami to try and balance the game
@@anonymoususer69 It mattered when Paleo existed. It also makes Dupe Frog not busted when making Mistar Boy, or when using it with Toad. It makes for a higher level of play whenever a competing deck uses "When" effect.
it makes no logical sense. two things can happen at the same time. it's like if your mom tells you to clean your room at 5 o clock and you try to make up some bullshit about how it's not 'exactly' 5 o clock one second after 5:00 pm, it's now 5:00:01 so therefore you don't have to clean
This helped more when missing the timing. So many other videos just feels like they drag the video. You got to the point and gave some examples. I want to give some examples. Thank you for the help.
When, You Can: The bane of every player's existence since the 1990s. Fun fact. You can auto-win against a Psy-Frame deck by not activating your mandatory effects. Normal Summon and smash face vanilla beatdown style. That deck's Achilles heel is nothing happening. It's a satisfying punishment for a deck that exists solely to not let your opponent play the game.
Alpha can be summoned in response to a normal summon, so you've already given them a play to make. You actually play something like Diamond Core of Koa'ki Meiru to skip your draw phase and deck out . . . Despite giving them a spell effect to negate . . . Just play 41 cards ir something. I know you can't side into a 41 card deck, but hey. You also can't not activate your mandatory effect.
Is that right. Every time I play against the deck, they are sitting on a fat hand of hand traps and once they reveal they are playing Psy-Frame, I just Normal Summon and attack each turn until I win. They probably are maxed out on effect negation pieces and 1-offing the other stuff. That or the deck is incredibly inconsistent. Which is why it's a not on the radar casual annoyance deck. Whatever the case, I love when "you shall not play Yu-Gi-Oh" decks fail, especially when the deck's mechanics are used against the deck.
Of course, it is not good enough against modern decks. Also it never really won anything back when it was good because Kozmo was the best deck and so whatever people were siding for Kozmo (Imperial Iron Wall, Chaos Hunter) was also auto-win against psy frames because their win condition is banishing your stuff
Yes! This is something I could not understand for years. I've played the game casually for ages now, playing all kinds of video games mostly, and I kept seeing the phrase "Missed Timing!" pop up now and again and...it was kinda frustrating since I could never find any source that gave good examples or made it easy to understand. Even after reading the wiki page on missed timing, I thought I would put it into practice, but then cards I thought would miss timing didn't. But this made it so much easier to understand. The examples helped big time. Thanks~
A few additions to the explanations: "After" has the same implications as "then" (which was kind of explained with Goblindbergh despite you claiming it said "then" when it clearly does not say "then"). The reason you cannot activate Dupe Frog in response to Enemy Controller in the example given at about 7:30 to anyone questioning it is that Trigger Effects have a Spell Speed of 1, so they cannot activate in response to other effects (except in a specific ruling case regarding multiple Trigger Effects). You might say this contradicts the use of Torrential Tribute in response to MST but that is not the case because Torrential Tribute has a Spell Speed of 2 (for being the activation of a Trap Card). The rules of "missing the timing" do not work the same, but rather the condition of Torrential Tribute needs a monster being summoned to be the last thing before the current chain to occur. It's kind of the same thing, but not really.
I still think missing the timing is still one of the dumbest things in Yugioh. You should not be able to miss the timing if you are never given the option to activate it. The cards that are stacked as part of the chain should all resolve simultaneously.
It is. It really is the dumbest thing. In MTG, you can target anything still on the stack, so even if you are somehow 10 cards deep in the stack, you target the first card cast in the stack with a counterspell.
But that is exactly the problem isn’t it? If you could simultaneously activate everything that would lead to a lot of chicken/egg like situations. That’s why chain link exists. This rule supports chain link. I don’t see the futility in that.
Chain links are the ones that creates the chicken/egg situation in the first place. Simultaneous ignores the order of the activation during the resolution phase because all effects are considered to be triggered at the same time. Cards like Dark Bribe are considered to target the last card played prior to it (no spell speed otherwise can change this fact) and there is nothing you can do to interfere in it other than another negation. But, these cards still target specific cards on the stack. Once all the cards desired are played, their effects resolve, pulling the negated ones out of the stack and then letting everything else play its course. Then, all the cards are sent to the graveyard at the same time after the cards resolve, preventing any cards from ever missing the timing.
seriously I'm only 30 seconds into the video but THANK YOU! I've seriously been waiting for someone to explain this forever and I know this is gonna be so helpful
I don't know if you really did it justice though. Good for a basic idea of how it works. You missing sequential effects with the conjunction "also, after that" as well as effects with "also" and "and if you do" Should also cover how timing works works with SEGOC and building chains. For instance, the very issue that Robert Jackson has in these comments with confusion about how Torrential Tribute works if you can activate MST before TT or not.
There are also ways to take away an opponent’s response window to certain cards. Say your opponent has a ton of counter traps and you have a fire lake you could use to take out their back row. If you have a bait doll, you could force the activation of your own fire lake causing your opponent to miss the activation response window making it impossible for them to counter your trap card. Why? Because bait doll activates your card as part of its resolution, which means the activation response window of fire lake comes and goes during bait doll’s resolving effect. Your opponent cannot activate effects while a chain is resolving, which means they cannot respond to your fire lake in this scenario.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also found this quote from yugipedia that seems like an important note. "When a player takes an action that does not start a chain, that action is the last thing to happen. For example, setting a Spell/Trap Card, summoning a monster, or declaring an attack."
These actions don't start a chain but they will trigger a chain, and the fact that the chain resolves backwards so the last thing has to be the thing that started a chain, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the last thing to happen has to be one of these actions.
Let me make this easy for you all. The only wording that can miss timing is "When, you can" everything else doesnt miss timing. I appreciate the in-depth breakdown as someone who likes longer and more broken down videos that get into the nuances of things.
I can't tell you how many times the wording on cards for this issue has confused me and screwed me over in a game. This video helped so much! Thanks Cimo!! ^_^
Wait a sec, you can chain MST in response to Suanni's summon and still activate TT? TT has "When" in its text, so shouldn't the last thing to occur be Suanni's summoning so it can activate? Or is it because MST hasn't resolved yet, so it's still legal to activate TT? Sorry if it's a stupid question, just trying to understand.
You're right. A better example would be to substitute TT for raigeki break where the target would be Suanni. Raigeki break destroys Suanni; Suanni misses its timing because MST was the last card to resolve. Just so you know, summoning does not start a chain. You can activate cards when they are summoned, but they are not "chained" to the summon. TT would be CL1 when a monster is summoned.
no, he's wrong, when you are starting a chain, the "last event" always relates to the last event before Starting the Chain, so for the whole Chain, the summon is considered to be the last event to happen
Torrential does not have to be DIRECTLY to the summon. Let's say I summon cir and my opponent activated bottomless trap hole, I can still activate torrential here as long as it is in the specific chain responding to the summon. Similar to how if I activate mirror force, my opponent book of moons their monster cl2, as long as it's the same chain, cl3 I can use another mirror force. Unlike Ash blossom that has to be directly in chain, torrential/mirror force only care about which chain theyre activate in response to for their window.
Thank you cimooooo you made something that is harder than the under standing of the universe seem soo easy I understood everything it was all so clear thank you again
as someone who enjoys yugioh content but doesn't actually play the game, this was extremely helpful in understanding some things I didn't understand before.
A bit late to the party but I have to say this was very helpful. In duel links I was constantly confused when some how my Yubel would miss it's timing and would really feel like I was cheated out of a win. But this .. very helpful stuff. Keep up the good work.
Thank you soooooo much for this video, cimo. It’s so frustrating explaining to frog players why tributing dupe frog for toadally awesome will make dupe frog miss timing
Gonna keep this in mind for Duel Links because any Anki hate is much appreciated. I can't stand the fact that he's able to float into himself mid-Battle-Phase and OTK out of nowhere.
Magic Clan His floating effect to search Mask Change is a "when" effect which means it can miss timing. You'll probably be able to survive until the next turn if it's only 1 of him you have to worry about.
"When this card destroys an opponent's monster by battle and sends it to the Graveyard:" Pretty hard to get that to miss timing, if you find a way. let me know.
I was playing Legacy of the Duelist link evolution and this prompt had come up with my Armageddon Knight. In 20 years I have never seen this ruling come up, either digitally or in real life (mind you I'm not a pro or competitive, just a casual). Thank you for making this easy to understand. 👍
New yugioh player here! Crusadia being my first deck, so I was wondering about the "whens" and "ifs", Reclusia's wording made me wonder about this. This video was so helpful! Thank you! Subscribed!
@@DominatorLegend I'm an AG player myself, and I wouldn't call it OP. Not a bad play tho, especially if summoning Reactor Dragon, or Wyvern for a search.
If effects activate after resolution. For example I activate darklight, trubute a dark monster I control as cost to do a board wipe. I can chain Darkest Diabolos after the effect, to summon itself after the board wipe because he has if a monster was tributed. It would go like so, pay cost to activate (tribute) > do board wipe > chain effect to summon
"How to miss timing featuring the Yang Zings. How do you guys feel about you guys always missing the timing?" "It's BULLS***" "well there you guys go, coming up next, When is the next banlist coming?"
i imagine you made a follow up video on missing the timing, because the definition of missing the timing you put in the previous video was quite atrocious when considering the mindset of a new player
I play Harpies which teach about Mandatory effects (the field spell) Darklords which teach about When timing (Superbia) and Super Quantums, which teach both 'if' and 'when' timings (Red, Blue, and Green)
Re kindling my interest in yugioh when I started college-I was watching 5ds and checking out a card maker forum-and I was reading a lot about the different conjunctions in yugioh card text.
Ok, this is the first time I’m grateful I took took classical logic one semester in uni lmao. Thanks for the great explanation, makes so much sense now.
Awesome video! I already knew some things about missing the timing, but didn't know about the "then" interaction. Like someone already suggested, it would be great to see something regarding battles, like Damage step and all those obscure sub-phases. Also, thanks RU-vid for the five (Goddamn, FIVE) ads you gave me in this video. If it wasn't for good youtubers like Cimoooooooo I would have already uninstalled the app.
Not being able to use Dragon Spirit Of White’s effect when I chain Sliver’s Cry always confused me. (Yes I play DL) Normal activation: A-Ok Chain Activation: Hol up!! This helps a lot, thanks Cemooooo!
This (after verifying by watching Cimo's terms video) is the only term that still jabs my mind when making out plays at times. I guess I... miss-time the cards! Ok I'll show myself out...
I remember playing Gusto on Dueling Network for so long before someone pointed out timing rules to me. I had beat over a hundred duelists there without a single one stopping me from using their float effects after performing Synchro Summons. Turns out-- the last thing to happen was the summon of my Synchro, not the Gusto monsters being sent to the graveyard. I stopped playing Gusto after that lol
Please more vids explaining more mechanics like this, i mean i already had a grip on missing timing but a good refresh is always nice especially when explained so well, also for the poeple who disnt quitw get it i think it helped them out to as i mentioned this was explained so well
This is the first time I've ever understood this. Just as well as I'm just getting abck into the game (after becoming certain Futurecard Buddyfight is collapsing here in the UK)
I think the best example for timing is "Demise of the Land" and basically any field spell with a "When" condition on activation. Because DotL can only be activated in response to an opponents monster which creates a chain, the field spell will never activate its effect. This is also why that card isn't played although it sounds good at first
I always mistimed activating the summoning effect of Mermail Abyssdine, largely because they have a lot of discarding, adding back to the graveyard and special summoning in their combo chain. She has like 2 effects that is prone to be mistimed and they both starts with "When" lol.
Should probably also go over how chains work as well. For instance if I am given the option to choose the order of a chain (summoning 5 monsters off soul charge that all have "When this card is summoned" effects, you can only respond to the last one with say a Solemn Strike or something. Another is ending your chain on a "cannot be responded to" effect. I cant remember the exact example, but in one of the decks ~2014/2015 you could do all of your effects (I believe in GY) and have the last one to activate be "cant be responded to" which made ALL of your cards be "unchainable" and get their effects "for free".
This always confused me, thanks for the clear explanation! I remember playing Naturias way back when they just came out and I never understood why Naturia Cliff doesn't trigger when I use it for synchro summon xD
Wow, im playing duel links using water decks like ice barrier/water xyz and im missing the time of Graydle Dragon/ Hope Woven Spider Shark effect in grave so often that hurts my heart. But now at least i can understand why this happen, thank you !
I have watched you for a while and I quite liked your content but never was convinced enough to actually sub. This video convinced me :D I have never seen such a good explanation of this topic and since I just start my adventure with yu-gi-oh it was a great help for me :) Great work!
