I'm on Zariel's side pre-fall, quite honestly. "You're in charge of protecting this settlement, but, like, not actually, really you're just kind of there for moral support and if they're ever actually in danger you should probably just let them all die because of balance or something." Like, come on, forces of good, what are you even here for?
Its a good point but preserving the blood war is literally the only plausible way of fulfilling the angels' goal of protecting the Prime Material (and every other plane as well) splitting the Celestial forces to battle both sides at once would result to obvious downfall (angels have failed raiding the abyss many occasions because staying in it makes them chaotic and to an extent self-destructive, and ex-angel Demonlords exist) and Asmodeus became a deity since 4e so having only half a ream invade on the realm of an actual god (plus the other archdevuls) are also a guaranteed failure. Fighting one side in particular is an even worse option because the unoccupied side would let the other free to corrupt the realm, and even if they succeeded eliminating either the Abyss or Hell, their forces would be worn out and more easily defeated by the remaining side. and yes their indirect involvement sounds disappointing but their subtle interference with mortals generally helps prevent a breakout of fiends because 1) its important to minimize souls that end up in the abyss/hell 2) Its also very important to stop mortals from summoning them- (especially since some demonlords like Demogorgon and Rhyxali have plans involving the Prime Material itself)
@@mistergiraffe9425 I know all the in-universe reasons. It's just that when I start thinking about it from the point of view of a character trying to solve the problem, I can't help but become overwhelmed by how obviously it's been constructed by the writers as a way to maintain the status quo. Yes, in-universe and within the context of the events that are presented, you answer Epicurus by saying 'Well actually, passively observing and not involving ourselves *is* the greater good', but boy howdy did the people writing the lore have to set up a whole bunch of very specific circumstances especially so that excuse would fly.
@@Eruvadhril I think it is a absolute brilliant way to argument why the universe is as ist is: Full of things to do for heroes. If it would not be this way, there would always be the question "Why did the angels not solve this aeons ago?" Also: No one says you are not allowed to change this in your D&D campaign. If you want a big apocalyptics battle good vs. evil over all of creation just let one of the two evils win the blood war and start open battle with the forces of good.
@@aikar6487 I usually manage it by severely scaling back the actual power that the gods are able to exert over the physical world. Not in terms of politics or potential collateral damage, but that they have a huge power drop-off when not on their home plane. That's why they want their faiths to spread, so that they can give instructions to whatever plane the worshippers are natives of, and have those worshippers carry out the god's wishes on those planes without having to work around being permanently debuffed while they're doing it.
This is sort of my premise for an aasimar who turns away from the gods of good and becomes a priest of Kelemvor. Not evil/fallen, but similar vibes. As an aasimar, everyone in his village thought he was this great savior and they felt so proud and blessed to have him grow up among them. One day, a fiendish incursion absolutely tears his town apart and he finds, to his shock, that the powers of good absolutely did not care. The people's lives were insignificant in the cosmic war of good and evil. The survivors of the incursion then despise the aasimar, assuming he had abandoned the gods and was the reason for their suffering. He leaves in disgrace, having done nothing wrong but feeling like the gods of good were uncaring and neglectful of the mortal plane. Blah blah blah, ends up finding comfort in the neutrality of Kelemvor and finds solace in comforting the bereaved, healing the sick, performing funeral rites, destroying the undead, etc. Kind of a philosophy where everything has a natural life that should be filled but not extended, so he's good with healing disease and resurrecting those killed before their time but is against those seeking immortality and undeath. During his adventuring career, gets pulled into a more cosmic good vs evil setting and now has the gods from his past calling on him to fulfill his destiny but he still feels like they treat mortals like himself like pawns and wants nothing to do with their game, but still wants to do what he feels is right. Kind of a "destiny finds you on the road you chose to avoid it" situation.
@28:19 - Brian’s offhand remark equating the behavior of Devil-kin’s attempts to obtain the souls of mortals by dealing with the “mortal shell” was surprisingly insightful lol
So Zariel has three stat blocks. The stat block that was in MToF is named simply Zariel while the updated stat block from DiA is named "Archduke Zariel of Avernus" as well as one for her angelic form should the players succeed in redeeming her.
I'm personally most looking forward to your episodes on the Obyrith! The ancient original demon lords who invaded the multiverse after fully destroying their own by consuming all life and resources. My favorites are Pazuzu the Lord of the all the skys of the abyss who only grants the prayers of good souls as to corrupt them into being dependent on him, and Obox-ob the first Prince of Demons and lord of vermin said to even give Demogorgon the spooks.
Listening on Spotify and have to say I’m from America but I love how you guys threw in meter and kilometers into the mix for everyone else and it was fun and funny how you did it. Anyways just a small thing I thought was fun. You guys are nailing it keep it up I love the show!
First to comment on todays spotlight of the Lady of the infernal defences Zariel herself lets go! :D thanks for the episode lads, much love from Denmark :D
Honestly, I'm having a hard time thinking of any big time d&d characters in the lore that have redemption arcs. Even Zariel's is dubious depending on which ending to the module WotC considers to be canon when it all gets updated. There are way more stories of falls from grace. If you're talking about pop media in general, then I can see an argument.
Just because it's related to the Shadowfell in the books doesn't mean I'm not allowed to run the Hexblade with a different origin. Besides I find it very limiting to tie the Hexblade to the Shadowfell when there is so much more one can do with a Hexblade.
40:05 A friend of mine said Zariel has Detect Evil and Good because she, unlike most of the other Archdukes, goes to the Material Plane. That is how she finds champions among the mortal races to corrupt. I don’t know if that’s true, it does make sense.
I will also add that I loved Descent… my silver dragon-born paladin helped redeem her and gained his own wings after wielding her sword temporarily. We are continuing our Descent deeper into Baator after we finish the current arc with different characters and go back to our old characters! I know Bahamut loves his golden bois but hope he sees my silver and is proud of him!
Zarial is dope though cause she got Asmodeus in a stalemate in the contract he made with her. She said yes to being an archdevil to win the war, knowing that once she does the angels are gonna finally we off their asses and beat the hell out of everyone because devils aren’t infinite. So he got her but she got what she wanted too
For the Descent Into Avernus campaign I DM I have it that initially Asmodeus was very impressed with Zariel and her more brute force approach. However in the time since he’s becoming annoyed by her rashness and impulsive strategies. Her plan in the campaign goes against Asmodeus’ wishes. The influx of new souls for devils would be massive and tip the Blood War largely in the devil’s favour. They could win the Blood War and conquer the Abyss. However, Asmodeus doesn’t want to win the Blood War yet. If the devils win then the celestials will attack to prevent them from getting to powerful, and with his forces weakened too much from the war and spread too thinly across the Hells and Abyss the devils would lose. Asmodeus wants to win the Blood War on his terms when he’s ready and he knows he can defeat the demons and celestials. As such he is secretly aiding the party’s efforts in stopping Zariel and hoping they remove her. He can’t be seen directly helping them cause the other arch devils may see this as a weakness and so he uses agents to interact with the party and push them to do his bidding.
I don't get why everyone seems to think that Zariel is the least of archdevils in terms of power. In Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy you can find Mephistopheles and Baalzebul's official stats, and they're CR 27 and CR 26 respectively. Those are both some of the oldest archdevils right up there with Asmo and their CR is equal or a smidge higher.
Thanks for the episode. Kinda miss your old ancient library backdrop. You guys def need to do an episode on Obox Ob. Demogorgon is afraid of him, that should get some great jokes going.
I'm currently playing a character that has a piece of Glasya's spark that was broken off during the Time of Troubles-it's not ever explicitly said that she possess one, but she's the daughter of Asmodeus, so eh? Anyway, he is the one tutoring my divine soul sorcerer in how to draw magic out of, and grow, the spark when she dreams after a level up. So I'll let you know? All signs point to not really, but Bowser is also totally willing to use his kids in plots for dominion.
F*ck’n Awesome!!!!!! Could y’all maybe include a DM roleplaying segment with these crazy intelligent, powerful, fiends? I wanna fast track bs my players through hell, and I think Asmodius (and the others) deserve more than just a jack black confrontation 😅 I want them to shit their pants basically. Thank you again, your podcast is platinum 👌🏼
In my game lathander just killed Helm with Mystra. Tiamat actually was hooking up with Helm (at least we think right now) during Torm's holiday where they basically act like the movie the purge. One of the characters is the daughter of helm and tiamat, yet she doesn't know this, and one of the asimars is ascended to follow tiamat who used to follow Helm but he has no idea about this relationship. So they are in Avernus right now and that's why I ask about it. Omg I just heard you talked about tiamat and zariels relationship soooo 👍
California looks forward to the "rain ambiance" of winter, eh? That's both sad and smart. Realistically speaking, rain beats snow every time... Romantically speaking... Y'all are stunted.
Where would tiamat want to live if she escaped avernus? As I am listening to this I would say mount celestial above bahumat level of 2. In my game lathander and mystra killed Helm and the 3 main gods are missing, muradin, chantea, Corolon... so much more than I want to type... but where do you think she wants to rule besides everything... edit and mount celestial is under attack therefore zariel has to decide where to direct her forces at 2 fronts celestial and avernus edit2 I just to the spoilers of acent to avernus maybe she would align with lathander again to gain higher standing over Mt celest and return to her old self... hmmm
I have a player in my campaign starting at level 1 paladin whos a paladin of zariel who will be going to the battle she fell in at 3rd level to become a fallen paladin
So the gods and mortals are just puppets the realities use to dominate each other. Conscious is just a wrench they have to deal with. Liches in general but specifically Acererak are the only free being in the multiverse. 🤷♂️
“From what little I do know, she doesn’t deserve a second chance” We redeemed her but the heavens put her on guard duty up there for a celestial prison for a titan (which upset my character, her child. They just wanted to hang out with their mom but after getting her out of hell they can’t even have that 😭)
I certainly would redeem Zariel. I don’t like seeing cosmic lawyers happy. The angel’s fault too - they needed to have taught her strategy and gave the hard working women a break so she does not to crazy - unless that was always what they wanted to make the quality tieflings in her image.
Rewatching this for campaign reasons, and given WOTC's recent decisions, it could be said they view our and homebrew like devils view souls. We are an inconvenient husk between them and it. It's practically theirs. LOL
