Just got back into cycling after 25 years and i love using 28mm tyres, so much more comfortable, i would never go back to 23mm.they roll over bumps and holes slowing you down less. Great video.
Hi David, I am a 73 year old road rider and am always looking for accessories that make my riding life easier. I originally had DT Swiss 28mm wheels on my new Felt FR2 di2 disc bike with 28 mm clinchers. . Then I switched to ENVE SeS 4.5 AR's with tubeless 28 mm Schwalbe 2020 Pro One tires. I run them with 45=50 lbs front to back. I am 66.7 kgs. These were an eye opener as far as less watts and less resistance over black top roads. Even over my original carbon wheels with clinchers I can actually feel my tires roll over cracks in the pavement, pathways and bridge joints rather than bounce over them there by causing me to lose speed. The only drawback with these wheels and lower tire pressure is sharp pot hole sides. I learned the hard way and cracked my new ENVE's on my first long distance ride on just such one of these potholes. Now I concentrate on looking as far ahead as possible so that I have enough reaction time to avoid these obstacles. I am not a hill climber but with this set up I end up in the top 1 or 2 fastest for my age group on Strava. Wish I could have afforded these carbon wheels that only use tubeless tires long ago!
The simplest, most convincing and best description of wider tyre benefits so far seen! 👍 And that was just a ‘by the way’ part of the rimset review. 👏👏👏
I've got some of these on my Canyon Ultimate, and I can confirm they're excellent. I've done around 500 miles on them now - my common routes are all faster and I'm so much more comfortable... like riding on a marshmallow. Very happy with them.
@@ppham Yeah the GCN version of this video has these exact wheels with 28mm tyres on an Aeroad, I'm sure it's fine. From a purely aesthetic point of view though I'm not sure these look quite right on an aeroad... I think that bike looks better with something deeper than 40mm.
I worked in a shop in the 90's and at the time, it was widely accepted that skinnier higher pressure tires were faster due to their lower rolling resistance; now we know better and have lab results to back up why the misconceptions back then were just plain wrong. I used to run 150PSI 18mm Conti GPs on my climbing wheels and 150-200 PSI tubulars on the track, but 23-25mm tubulars with 90 PSI (low for that time) on my crit wheels, because the cornering speeds were so much higher and taking the last few turns at the end of a crit can get you on the podium.
As I’m now running the Zipp 303 Firecrest wheels I found this information quite helpful. I’ll be changing out my 25mm tires for 28mm and adjust my pressure accordingly. Thanks!
Wider tires are faster to a point then the opposite when going past that point of width. Also it’s relative I’d a 28 over a 23. A 32 is likely slower than a 28 but a 28 faster than a 23. Another factor is road conditions. Ona velodrome a 23 is better than a 28 but on regular roads the opposite. Gravel maybe a 38 is faster than a 32. And so forth and so on.
Fast forward 1 year later. I have the same wheel tyre set-up(303 firecrest, Michelin tubeless tyres), you were right David, they are awesome wheels plus I really like the Michelin tyres, better then the Pirelli P Zero's.
I'm loving my 2021 Zipp 303 Firecrest's on my 2021 Giant TCR with 28mm Schawlbe Pro One TLE tires. At 60/65 PSI this setup is amazing!!! Looking forward to getting another set of these wheels for my 2020 TCR.
Not sure what your weight is, but that pressure seems low. I would be going 75/70 at least. I have been running the same tires at 28c, I have tried 65/60, 75/70 & 85/80....so far the higher pressure has been the best, speed comfort. The lower pressure felt a tad sluggish. I'm 70kg...
Dude, I wish I had your cycling budget.....that said, why would you get a second TCR? Why not go for a Propel? Or something else. They haven't changed the geometry or tube profile very much between the 2020-2021 TCR.
@@chiefrocker12 You're running the same tires, hopefully not the same wheels. These tires with the 303 Firecrest wheels are a different animal. The wheels have a maximum pressure of 73 PSI. Zipp recommends 60/65 PSI. Works great for me.
The contact patch diagram is based on running the wider tyre at the same pressure as a narrow tyre, but as you say several times you run the wide tyres at a much lower pressure. Which then lengthens the contact patch and increase the rolling resistance. The manufacturers don't even claim you can have both lower rolling resistance and increased comfort.
Yeah, really wish this was emphasised more on these videos. It's a trade-off - like-for-like wider tyres _can_ have lower Crr, but that relies on you having similar pressures, you _can_ have more comfort but that relies on you tending to similar rolling resistance. The point about suspension losses is reasonably valid though.
Narrower tyres do have less rolling resistance but in the long run the loss of momentum, and energy in your muscles due to the vibrations makes the wider Tyre the overall winner
@@markitoxi "Narrower tyres do have less rolling resistance" Like-for-like, narrower tyres will have invariably have a _higher_ rolling resistance, due primarily to hysteresis losses in the side-wall, than a wider one at the same pressure.
Wider tyres can be great, I'm just highlighting that the data has been misinterpreted when suggesting that a wider tyre can be run at both a lower pressure and a lower rolling resistance. That still leaves plenty of reasons and situations to run a wider tyre.
Just wanted to add ETRTO has been mentioned alot recently relative to tubeless. They are not just a body that manages the standards for road bikes they manage the standards for all vehicles that use wheels and tyres as everything is agreed by committee experts it takes a while for changes to feed through to the standard and depending on priorities it can take a while.
I just fitted pair of these on my gravel bike with 40mm Pirelli tyres. Instanty I noticed the increased comfort levels on bumpy road/gravel it really is a huge difference. You can also feel the increased speed, acceleration etc though not massive in my case because my stock wheels as it turns out were pretty good.lol
Nice video. But when quoting weights (300g lighter), I think its important to take into account the system (wheels + tires + brakes). As such, it would be more accurate to weight the wheel with the brake rotor and attachment hardware. Even better, while comparing weigh benefits of disc wheels, compare weights of disc brake systems to rim brake systems (calipers, pads, cables with fluid and shifters). My gut tells me the weight advantage goes to rim brakes. On the aero side, what is the aero cost of rotors vs rim calipers? The rim brake calipers/cables also have a cost. And of course the much larger bulbous disc brake shift levers (SRAM). The aero winner is much less obvious, as the drag of the rotor and disc shifters is seldom tested for against rim calipers and smaller shifters. But braking strength is clear - disc wins. But I struggle to remember when I lacked enough braking force to stop (without going over the front end), but I ride HED Black clinchers. The bike industry is a marketing machine. Determined to confuse and contradict to sell the latest and greatest. The move to disc only frames is perfect example of this.
Many race bikes can't take particularly wide tyres. Mine is only a few years old and can't take more than 25mm. That bike is faster than my other one. The winter bike can take 36mm + mudguards. For winter the extra grip on offer is fantastic, and the comfort is very much appreciated.
@@Paulklampeeps the race bike fits 25mm slicks. It doesn't have enough space either side to take a 28mm. 36mm slicks in the winter is like riding on rails, limited concerns about ice, minimal extra rolling resistance (not enough to care) and verify tubeless I managed last winter without any punctures. Each to their own for what is 'too much' though.
Don't take tire off once mounted!!! Remove valve core, insert sealant, re-insert valve and pump back up. Done. Sometimes some soapy water facilitates bead to seat. I've been using tubeless for three years (Mavic) and have not had a catastrophic puncture yet.
Thank you for another awesome review. Got the wheel set and love it... Very comfortable ride compared to the stock SL7 comp (DT's) wheel set. Do you have experience with ENVE 3.4 AR? I am curious as how the 303 firecrest and ENVE 3.4 AR compared on flat and climbing...
That was the clearest explanation for wide vs. narrow tires I've heard. My concern with expensive rims and hookless tires is what happens when you experience a "dramatic" loss of air pressure? Does the flat tire protect the rim edge? I personally will wait until there are more "adopters". Let all the rim tire confusion settle down. I am a roadie and we don't like to be early adopters 😂! Thanks for the vid.
I am almost exclusively a road (not gravel) rider. I heard your comments about the 303S being not quite as good overall, but because it is a little deeper wondered if it wouldn't be better as a pure road wheel than the less deep 303 Firecrest on rolling roads without significant climbing. Thoughts?
It surely depends on were you ride and the state of the roads. For me, wider is better - run at lower pressure and provides a comfortable ride on rough roads. I wouldn't even contemplate a tyre less than 28mm. I've had too many punctures with narrow tyres; and the speed difference is negligible to not matter.
I've done a fair few miles on mine now also fitted to this years TCR with 30's fitted that sit about half a mm wider than the rim itself. They cut thorough the air much better than a 40mm deep wheel with tyres that wide have any right to. Zipp really have shot the 404 series in the foot here until they get a similar makeover. At that point I'll get a rear 404 Firecrest for flatter days out.
Thanks Dave.. been waiting for this video to compare with the 303s.. looks like I've made my mind up.. firecrest it is then 👍 Still lifetime warranty with the original owner.. now for the tyres?
Thanks for this extensive review which is extremely helpful, I came across the one you did for the 303s as well and I am trying to figure out if it is worth to break the bank and spend the extra cash for the Firecrest. Overall, would you say so (besides the 200 grams)? As I am on a aero bike, how would you evaluate aero performance in both, compared to wheels with wider profiles (50mm or more)? Is it right thinking that the lower profile rim is compensated by the wider inner width? I read in many reviews that there is good benefit in terms of speed with these wheels...
@@davidarthur I'm wondering if the 303F cuts the wind as well (or better) than the 303S, quality/performance of the new hubs on the 303F, do they both have similar road vibration dampening, and of course which set is overall faster. :) Thank you, much appreciated.
How does the rearhub compare from 303s to 303 firecrest? Is there a big difference in Engagement? I am coming from DTSwiss 240 Hubs and I am not sure if the 303s will satisfy my expectations with the 3-pawl Design.
Thanks David another brilliant video. Totally agree re the benefits of wider tyres for rolling resistance and comfort, especially on a long ride. See you opted for the ‘wide’ 28mm here - do you reckon this is the optimum width for a ride on these lanes of would you go wider for even better comfort/rolling resistance? Cheers 👍
A bigger road bike tire (at least the Continental GP 4000 and GP 5000) provides a lower rolling resistance at the same air pressure. You do have to realize that at the same air pressure, a bigger tire will provide a less comfortable ride. At the 15% tire drop air pressures, which are very close to the recommended air pressures for a given size, the tables are turned and a bigger road bike tire will have a higher rolling resistance. The higher rolling resistance of the bigger tire is because it provides more comfort at the 15% tire drop air pressure. We feel the ultimate test is adjusting all tires to the same comfort level. When all tires are adjusted to the same comfort level, rolling resistance is nearly the same (0.2 watts max) for all sizes of the GP 5000. We now feel picking the right size tire is more a matter of looking at what level of comfort (and grip) is required. At some point, a smaller tire isn't able to provide the same comfort level (and grip) as its bigger counterpart because it will start bottoming out. If you want to go as fast as possible, choose your required comfort level and pick the smallest tire that can provide that comfort for you.
Great review and video Dave! I’m very curious, could you comment on the ride quality between the firecrest and the 303S? By ride quality I mean compliance and smoothness. Does the 303S give a harsher ride? I know it’s hard to quantify but what are your thoughts about that aspect?
Hi folks, is there anyone with a long term experience, especially with regard to durability? I wonder how well the hubs and bearings perform in the long run. Thx a lot in advance for sharing your first hand impressions!
Just bought them and funnily enough have fitted the same tyres. Felt pretty quick although they replaced my Giant SLR1 Carbon wheels which were pretty good already, so difficult to notice much improvement. Do feel more confident of being able to get the tyre off and on more easily in case I did get a puncture, something I've been unlucky enough to experience a few times even with tubeless tyres (and boy was it hard to get the tyre off and on). Would add that the digital pressure monitor that you can fit on them is obscenely expensive though at £200.
@@jong4691 SLR wheels have been great, had no problems with them for 4 years. It was just a nightmare getting tubeless tyres on and off. Jury is still out as to whether it was worth the upgrade; feels slightly faster, slightly lighter but a big expense. It's that piece of mind knowing if I do get a puncture, I'm going to be able to sort it relatively easily instead of battling and losing at the side of the road.
Hi David - enjoying your reviews. Really important question on the width if considering this upgrade. Which is whether or not they will fit on any but the latest big clearance frames? I ride a 2019 TCR which can fit some 28m tyres but these huge widths I’ve read make 28s more like 30s. Which would rule them out as an upgrade on many pretty modern frames. That just aren’t big enough for 30m 🙁 Grateful for any advice.
I have at least 3 aerodynamic expert ftiends of mine explaining to me that those dimples are for aesthetic purpose only. Dimple effect works with head on wind like in golf balls.
@@silvere36 were you able to hear sound of air gliding over the rim surface as you ride? And tell the difference between smooth high profile rim and dimpled rim just by the sound? You must be super human!
@@caperider1160 have you not noticed those done designs on car? Specifically you can find them on mirrors. It's too disrupt certain type of airflow that causes whistling to of noises. If you ride with groups you should have noticed certain setups were more mousey than others. I don't now why you're having trouble with this. People don't do this just to look good. This adds cost.
@@silvere36 Dynamics of air is highly chaotic, meaning that a small changes in variables lead to completely different outcome. The idea of dimples work perfectly for a golf ball because they have figured out the right range of diameters and depths of dimples for the ball's curvature and typical range of speeds. Two things are important here. The dimples are colliding with the air head-on and also spinning. The situation is very different for a high profile bicycle wheels. Analysing the way air flows around the rim as you ride through wind, dimples are definitely not a candidate to reduce air drag. The only thing that practically matters is the depth of the rim, looking at aerodynamics perspective, if you look at the order of magnitudes for variables that affect air drag. I am not an aerodynamics specialist but I am a research physicist. And I have aerospace expert friends who work in respectable industries. They all point out that these dimples on zipp wheels are marketing gimmicks. Aerodynamic evaluations need wind tunnels and it is one area average consumers just have to swallow whatever the manufacturer claims. Now, your story about noise reduction is very interesting because if indeed there is noise reduction, it practically means less drag! Sound is also a form of energy. But I doubt that you can hear any bells or whistles at speeds a mortal cyclist can achieve on an average day.
I wonder, we have used tubeless tires for decades already in cars and motorcycles, without even thinking once about putting any sealant inside them.. Is that mess really needed exept for puncture proofing?
Wide tyres generate preportionally more drag than narrow tyres. Rolling resistance increases linearly with speed. Air resistance increases logarithmically. Therefore if you sre slow, get wide tyres.
@@mikeypalmer3977 However the premise of the basic point is a little too basic - total drag is not solely a function of frontal area (and that's ignoring suspension losses, robustness and any comfort issues). As mentioned here, and everywhere, repeatedly - if you're on the track, or blessed with glass smooth tarmac, go skinny at high pressure; everywhere else, it depends.
A domane and 28’s blowing up to 32mm at 50 odd psi. Blimey must be armchair smooth! I have a domane and sorely want some 25mm internal hookless - hoping another good brand produces an £800 version…
Great review and points !!! i am going to buy this wheelset, but all of them comes with XDR driver body. I am using Shimano Ultegra 11 Speed Di2. Same shop seeling ZIPP ZR1 WHEEL FREEHUB KIT - 11 SPEED DRIVER BODY KIT - 12X142 speed sram/shimano body. Is that part enough to make this wheel run with shimano casette ? The end caps are competible with XDR body ?
I was using a ultegra di2 12 speed and I buy a wheelset od zipp 303 firecrest with xdr driver body. You need only to change the xdr driver by a shimano 11 speed body kit (fit a 12 speed too), the end caps are the same.
How wide do the 28mm Michelin tires get when mounted to the 303 Firecrest rim? Unfortunately my fork has little clearance left so having a 28mm tire bulge out to 32mm actual width may be a no-go for me... thanks!
Could I use these wheels with chamber inside? On the page it says that a good size is 700x28 and I have the good year supersport, but when putting them on it is impossible to fit them with a chamber inside, other mechanics tell me that they can only be used with tubulars, thanks for helping me clear up my doubts
I have lots of Hills in my area, I'm training for multiple Fondos this fall with big elevation too. Should I stick with 25 mm tires or add more weight and go to 28mm?
Did all of cycling come to an agreement that nothing going forward would be backward compatible? Even wheels & tires have gone the "disc brake " only route bikes are coming stock with tubeless only wheels & the aftermarket is right there to support the trend.
I.use the Michelin.pro 4 service course tyres not tried the power competitions yet but good reviews. Not sure on.tyres wider than 25c for road bikes and they are heavy.
Puncture protection of the Powers doesn't test as well as Pro Race and that's something I like about Pro Race. Looks like they traded rr for pp to compete with continental. But poor pp is why I stopped using contis.
Does anyone care to comment on the pros and/ or cons for combining the 303 Firecrest in the front with the 404 Firecrest on the rear. I have read that the 303 with its lighter weight is a better all around (gravel/ road) but somewhat less aero than the 404. Obvious the 404 with its larger profile may have concerns for the crosswinds in the front. I really appreciate what you might have to offer
Funny how they're all starting to sound like a Chris King, just 10 years behind......... Oh, BTW, my Chris king R45's are still spot on, the front still on original bearings and the rear only one set changed, IN 9 YEARS...... 😁😁😁👍👍👍
I owned 3T wheels. C35 discus team stealth... after 2000km the rearwheel colapsed and had to be sent back to Italy. Once received, it took an other 2000km to break down again... will never buy anything from 3T again. Customer Service is very Bad also. The time to repair my wheel was about 3 month.😂😂😂 when I received it back the Summer was gone.
I have 28 on my Emonda SLR6. It will take a wider tyre 30mm measured. I’m considering these wheels. Light and will aid comfort as the Emonda is stiff on byzzy road surfaces!
I decided to spare you all that detail. I simply unseated one bead, poured some sealant in, and popped the tyre back on. I always prefer to do a dry run just to make sure it's going to work before getting the sealant involved. I've had some messy installations when a tyre has refused to inflate. Another option with some sealant is to inject it via the valve core which saves removing the tyre
@@davidarthur Removable cores are generally seen as a good bet for road tyres (ease of use, mess considered) especially if you have a tapered nozzle bottle or an injector, which many of the sealant bottles either have or come with resp. - surprised you're still going ol'school MTB :) Habit or preference ? (or do the Zipp cores not come out ?...)