This is such a great scene. This entire movie can be re-watched over and over and you pick up on new subtle details that you didn't pick up on the previous time. You can peel multiple layers and never get to the truth, but there are always layers to peel.
Yes. I have to confess I've watched Zodiac more than any other movie - about 30 or 40 times (and this scene even more). It's one of the great scenes all right. When Graysmith says, 'This is a case that's covered both Northern and Southern California...' David Shire's music starts fading in for the big reveal and Toschi says 'Jesus Christ'. It's the tragedy of the unknowable remaining a tantalising mystery - but remember, 'just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it's not true'
Also you can watch this scene from Toschi's point of view when Graysmith is going through the evidence. Ruffalo has this brilliant half-smile on his face thinking 'who does this obsessive thinks he's kidding. He should leave it to the professionals. Us cops have been though this and we know we can't prove it.' Then, Graysmith presents the timelines of Arthur Lee Allen and the Zodiac and Graysmith says, 'we get our first new Zodiac letter in 4 years.' At this point, Ruffalo's expression changes to one of uncertainty as if thinking, 'maybe this guy's right. Or even if I know he is, how can he prove it?' which is when he asks him the final question. The great thing, also, about the 'Jesus Christ' reaction of Toschi is that he almost admits to Graysmith that he agrees with him and you can tell that he does but, as he says, 'but I am a cop'
@@drdavid1963 That's so funny, because since I watched it back in 2021. I've watched the movie at least 6+ times... it's crazy because the movie isn't about the killer, as much as it is about the theme of obsession. Graysmith, the Zodiac, regular movie goers.
@@drdavid1963 funny side note that Dirty Harry Inspector Callahan was based on Detective Toschi and the Zodiac, so its a funny little Easter egg when he says "Easy Dirty Harry..."
@@HayastAnFedayi - Yeah. Dirty Harry took the law into his own hands. He might as well have said 'just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it's not true.'
I saw that too XD I think its because now Ruffalo's character can finally rest knowing he solved the case but couldn't prove it in court. He had the right man, but the right man was smart and covered his tracks.
@@dnllrnt Honestly yeah, the film highlights a lot of jurisdictions being unorganized and never having enough staff or even care to solve the murder. (later in the film) I do believe that if they had their shit together, they could have solved it but it’ll remain an American serial killer mystery.
I actually liked the fact that the movie took a very firm position on who the Zodiac was and I was almost sure ALA was the Zodiac but now I’m not so sure. If ALA did it then he almost certainly had an accomplice.
Look at 2:03. Pause it. Notice the dividing line between the two. And how Ruffalo just reaches across that dividing line. He doesn’t stay there, but he reaches into the opposite side. That’s balance. That’s visual storytelling. That little moment looks like nothing. But it’s an effort to connect that he pulls back from. And finally, at the end, the dividing line is not crossed at all. Ruffalo stays in his space and exits on the left, never crossing the line.
Allen is the main killer, but it’s most likely that he had an accomplice or two. And it’s possible that an opportunist used the Zodiac panic to get away with their own murder and blamed it on Zodiac,
@@ctabjjdanny6261 The first 2 murders are 100% zodiac, the 3rd one I'm not 100% sure on as it was broad daylight and he used a knife, the taxi driver murder had nothing to do with zodiac (the M.O is way too different and I think someone used the fear created to get away with it.
I think Arthur was ONE of the Zodiac Killers. I believe the Zodiac Killer comprised of at least 2 or more people. That would explain why Arthur's handwriting and DNA didn't match what was found in the envelope, despite all the overwhelming evidence the authorities found in his trailer home. You really think he would be stupid enough to tell his friend, Don Chaney every single detail concerning his Zodiac identity, and how he would go about killing his victims? Maybe telling Don was part of the plan. He counted on Don Chaney to go to the Police, cause he knew regardless of what they found on him, the DNA and handwriting weren't gong to match anyway. It's a pretty clever way to throw the cops off his trail. Keep in mind all the letters the Zodiac sent consisted of details of the murders and humiliating the cops for not being able to catch him or in this case "them" It was all about having the power to evade the Police and always being one step ahead of them. Now as far as who the other assailants were? I do not know. It could be Paul Doerr or another suspect that goes by the name of William McDuff Andrew? Both of them fit the Kodiac's description for sure. But who really knows? Your guess is as good as mine. Be honest with me. What do you guys think of my multiple Zodiac Killer theory? Dude! I just thought of this earlier today before I read your comment. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Arthur had and accomplice. It only makes sense tbh.
He's also acknowledging Robert's dedication. If you remember earlier the film, Toschi whisks food from his former partner in a nonchalantly selfish manner (asks for Animal Crackers like he's entitled to them) because he's too focused in his own mind.
It's funny how Toschi tolerates Robert throughout the film...to a point to keep his family comfortable, but knowing the obsession, being a detective, he can't help but go through ALL the evidence he spent a good chunk of his career on with Robert at 5 am because it's in his blood to do so.
Loved who as the time goes by robert becomes a great detective but his mental health is falling apart. He doesnt eat, take care of his sleeping, grew a small beard and doesnt spent too much time with his family. Almost goes crazy as paul
Such a great film; Fincher is a master; additionally, I really love how although the main plot is of course the mystery about the Zodiac identity, few films like this one really develop the life journey ark of the others characters: Robert: low profile nerdy cartoonist single guy, to focused centered family man, to obsessed guy divorced guy Paul Avery: prime sober old school journalist , sensationalist journalist, drunk hippiesh journalist in decadence
There is no indication that Robert was a focused centered family man, considering he was divorced before the film started. The implication is that he is prone to obsession and it's what drove off his first wife. Some people are doomed to repeat their mistakes. Paul Avery was never sober.
The "serial killer music score" that's reminiscent of Silence of the Lambs and Se7en rising up in the background when Jake/Robert gets to the point where he's showing their door to door connection adds to the effectiveness of this scene.
This is what I believe. Arthur Leigh Allen is the main killer, but there was prolly 4-5 other killers who killed during his time and just blamed it on him making it harder to track him down. Remember the golden state bridge killer? Well his name was Joseph Angelo. He also did all the killings and raping around that time. But he got caught thru dna testing.
I read D'Angelo was also doing crimes for years up and down all over California. California had so many serials running around from the late 60s through the 90s, so I think, good luck ever solving this case. Arthur Leigh Allen could have been the main one, but was he really that brilliant? I dunno. He kept getting arrested and put in prison for stretches. How genius could he have been?
I was surprised to recently see on blogs, websites, etc., there's a good amount of people who still look into other people as possible Zodiac suspects. I think if you read Graysmith's book, and how he laid out Zodiac's timeline so well, but also acknowledging the possibility that Zodiac, in his letters, could have made claims to murders he didn't commit to throw investigators off his trail, or to break up his patterns, that it was still Allen. Arthur Leigh Allen was not too far away from being charged with murder, but he died of a heart attack before it could be formally arranged, and no one has ever heard from Zodiac since.
@@swankybutters8371 Retired police handwriting expert Lloyd Cunningham, who worked on the Zodiac case for decades, stated, "They gave me banana boxes full of Allen's writing, and none of his writing even came close to the Zodiac. Nor did DNA extracted from the envelopes (on the Zodiac letters) come close to Arthur Leigh Allen."[4]
@@patrickbooth5091 Not really sure who Cunningham is... (Funny... I went to a school called Cunningham) anyway, I have little doubt he faked his handwriting. You can see it on many of the uploads about is writing. Also he said he couldn't write with his right hand and that was a lie as well. You can see he's messing with his hand writing, it's not hard to notice. Even Norman Boudreau said he could right with both hands... He was a good BS artist... DNA, I'm almost sure was not his, he would get other people to lick his stamps for him... He was good at playing the game...
@@NicolasSilvaVasault Dude be professional. If you don't like your co-worker that doesn't mean he's bad at his job. Watch his movies, even his Bruce Banner movies. He's pretty good.
Well he died before they got a chance right? At least that's what I remember from the movie, assuming it's accurate. At the end they find one of the original victims and he positively identifies him. That plus this mountain of circumstancial evidence i think would have at least got an arrest, but it was too late.
It really is less then 50 yards. I'm from the Bay Area....I live like 20 miles away from Vallejo. I'm really interested in true crime, especially this case. I went to those places and walked it myself. It's not a House of Pancakes anymore, but it is still a restaurant.
It was an IHOP for a long time. Used to go there in high school and even after. I graduated 20 years ago. There’s a second ihop on the other side of town, and at some point someone else bought the ihop on tenn st and turned it into a seafood place I think. It didn’t last long. It’s a Mexican joint now
@@tylerwedell3750 I've got no reason other than instinct for saying this, but I can't fathom how two different people could jointly do serial killings. To be a serial killer in the first place you need to be pretty unbalanced, and for one such type to find another kindred spirt, and for both of them to agree on the strategy and to both keep their mouths shut, seems pretty unlikely to me.
It was, he have been sumoned by the officers again not long after bu he died of a heart attack not long before the meeting, taking the truth about the Zodiac with him😔
@@justin-tu9fl yeah that's not true that hasn't been confirmed. Lol. They definitely didn't find the Zodiac. Pretty clear that Lee Allen was involved. The odds of that many coincidences like hitting the Powerball twice.
I'm with you Andrea, I'm just more in the 95% sure, for now but 99% is most likely correct as well. No one even comes close to ALA and honestly, I don't think he ever worked with anyone, that would have been a huge mistake... He was a soloist...
It's not that Toschi was too focused on it. The problem was that nothing else would matter in court if the prints and handwriting didn't support the case. A judge would throw it out in two minutes. Toschi wasn't arguing in this scene that ALA wasn't the murderer, he was explaining why he wouldn't be able to prove it.
@@TorqC69I know, even if it's circumstancial it's all just too overwhelming. Just cause they don't have solid proof they give up on the person who is clearly the zodiac. I don't really get that and the movie shows Jake's character going into the shop at the end and basically showing Arthur Allen Leigh is the zodiac but the police don't take further action until years later and then he dies
This movie is so damn good I'm surprised it's not considered a classic or something. Like film classes should be reviewing this movie, I really believe that.
I love watching these “psychoesque” shows and movies because they always mention the state hospital in Atascadero, CA. Just north of San Luis Obispo. I lived right next to it and it is odd thinking about all of the creeps in there
While agreeing with Robert that Leigh was the serial killer, Toschi still rejects him, choosing his career over working with Robert in a way that may threaten it.
At least they're persistent. Imagine how easy it would be for a zodiac killer to get away with those killings in a third world country where cops aren't just clueless, but lack the technology to actually get a serial killer pinned down. Good luck trying to solve a 20-year-old crime where evidence has been manipulated to no end.
This was a well-crafted movie in terms of the acting, the lighting, the editing etc, but it really should be seen as fiction. Graysmith had a book to sell and Fincher had a movie to promote, so both of them omitted or just invented things to make the case against ALA. Here's just a few examples: 1. the movie makes a big deal of zodiac speaking to the housekeeper on December 18 and saying "I have to kill today, it's my birthday". The FBI tell Graysmith that none of the suspects have a December 18 birthday. Graysmith then discovers that ALA's birthday was December 18 and runs to Toschi's house in the middle of the night having "solved" the case. In real life the Zodiac never called the lawyer's house at all, and ALA's birthday was openly recorded as December 18 in every file. There was just no significance to it. 2. The spotlight fell on ALA because of Cheney, who swore that ALA had told him of his plans in early January 1968, and that ALA was "raw" about having been fired from his job for molesting a student. In real life, this could not have been true because ALA was not fired until March 1968. When asked about this inconsistency sometime later, Cheney said "oh, the conversation must have been in 1969 then". Cheney's credibility was suspect in the eyes of the police from early on. He had reason to have a major grudge against ALA. 3. a major plotpoint in the movie is that someone made heavy breathing phone calls to Darlene's house and her parent's and in-law's houses that night, before the murders were known about. The movie shows Toschi and Graysmith realizing that this meant that the killer must have known Darlene, and since ALA lived "less than 50m away from her workplace", it had to be him. In real life, Darlene's brother eventually admitted to the police that he made the calls, because he'd asked Darlene to buy him some dope, and he was calling around hoping to find her. When she didn't answer, he didn't identify himself. There's numerous places where the movie is misleading, but these are just a sample to show that it was not trying to give a fair picture, but was intended to convict ALA. The latter was a pedophile and had creepy ways about him, but once you separate the fact from the fiction, the arguments for him being the zodiac are very flimsy. In real life, there's no way the police were about to charge him when he died.
This case is as complex as the monster of florence in Italy, and the reason why it is so complex is because im 99.9% sure the Zodiac killer was not only one person but it was a conspiracy between at least 2 or more people.
In an earlier scene, Toschi points out that Dirty Harry acts without any due process. I find the comment "Easy, Dirty Harry" ironic, seeing as how, in reality, Graysmith had basically determined that ALA was the Zodiac, and bent the truth and made up facts to make it seem almost unquestionably true. He, like Dirty Harry, tried to solve the case without any due process.
I was disappointed to learn that the movie distorted a lot of the details (no matching bootprints, no Zodiac watch, etc.). I'm guessing that if there really was that much circumstantial evidence, it would have been an easy conviction.
Of all the stuff the Zodiac did, how he killed, wrote and acted, you would think he wanted to be known for it by name in the end of it. But I guess he just died somewhere and we will never know 100%.
