i really love how at one point Robert said "I Need to know who he is I need to stand there, I need to look him in the eye and I need to know that it's him" and the movie ends with him looking in the zodiac's eyes.
Fun Fact: The Police not showing Zodiac's first victim a photo lineup that included Arthur Leigh Allen shortly after the murder is considered one of the greatest law enforcement blunders of recent history.
Arthur Leigh Allen didn’t become a suspect until 1972 At which point Mike had run off. The bigger zodiac fuck up was the san Francisco police not stopping the man walking away from the Paul stine’s crime Scene Or the fact napa, Vallejo and SanFrancisco police departments never fully shared info which each other.
This movie really made me feel tired, but then I realized it was intentional. The director wanted us to feel the same way the people who were trying to solve these crimes felt over the years.
I didn't feel that way, I was actually as obsessed as Robert was. I even tried to puzzle every thing, from the date of his birthday, to where the murders happened where he was at the time. Crew cut? He's bald, where are the glasses, his voice. Everything
@@jrob4795 I've watched this film at least 6 times since I first saw it... which was last year in May. Just trying to find one or two clues I didn't notice
That director got the skill to make very long movies with little to no action or any kind of acts being shown, mostly just words being spoken. yet they suck you in and you can't stop watching it even if it's 3 hrs, the dialog only creates the tension the rest is just fuel for the fire. he's a master at crafting a huge fire that will passion you to sit tight till it end.
That moment where Jake Gyllenhaal's character stares at the man he thinks is the Zodiac and you see that guy realise that Gyllenhaal's character knows and than deciding he will intimidate him by staring back, damn, good acting.
I think he's rather unsettled by Graysmith staring at him. Also notice that you can hear Baker Street, a song meaning victory, playing in the background, a small hint that he finally looked at the Zodiac.
no, this film is bullshit. Its pure fiction, Graysmith didn't even know Avery in the Chronicles. The zodiac didn't call melvin belli 18 december, he never call belli in fact. Another guy made the call. Cheney's story is bullshit. Allen was not the Zodiac, but graysmith just cant accept that
Sick Kunt The movie doesn't say that Allen was the Zodiac. It says that Graysmith believed that Allen was the Zodiac. The movie makes pretty clear that there is only circumstantial evidence against Allen. That's why the third-from-last scene is so important: Toschi: "The prints, the handwriting..." Graysmith: "I'm not asking you as a cop.: Toschi: "But I AM a cop. I can't prove this." Ultimately, while we'd like to believe Graysmith, Toschi is right. You have to go with direct evidence, and there just ISN'T any against Allen.
TitanFind dna, fingerprint... Allen wasn't the zodiac. I mean the movie is great, but after watch it you think allen was definitely the fucking zodiac. But it was just an graysmith obsession. Probably we will never know who the fuck was that motherfucker
Fun fact: in real life Mike Maggio jumped out of his chair and screamed at the top of his lungs "That's him, that's the guy that shot me!" the instant they showed him Allen's photo, which for a traumatized dope fiend no one had seen in 20 years is pretty definitive confirmation if you ask me.
The Zodiac has to go down as the luckiest or smartest killer of all time, So much circumstantial evidence was there & everytime it seemed like they were about to get him something happened and it was back to square one all over again. I honestly believe it was more then one person
+TripleA He's right you know. Technically you're just a mere fan with your opinion and these movie are actually rated by hundred thousands of other fans (Just like you) It is actually, the only evidence if you want my opinion. I bet Zodiac would be forgotten in 10 years. Hell, people are barely talking about it now
@@richiefranklin76 ok,what about the fingerprints that was left of cab after he shot the cabdriver...they had blood on then so they had to have come from the ZODIAC...and the wanted poster the one with to glasses looks nothing like Allen's face..Allen was much bigger.
There is s great documentary on the cable Channel called .REELZ it's all about the ZODIAC watch it and it will change your mind about Allen being the ZODIAC the fakes just dont lie Allen was not the ZODIAC
@@davidmcdonald6804 But in March 2018, it was announced that the 2002 DNA sample was collected from outside the stamp rather than behind it, or from the envelope seal, meaning Allen could still be a suspect. So now they are apparently trying to collect DNA from the back of the stamps or from the envelope seals with new technology that allows them to separate the DNA from the glue. They're going to try to do what was done to the golden state killer, but it won't be as good because there will only be partial DNA samples, unlike with the golden state killer where they had a rape kit which gave complete DNA samples.
What makes this ending so great is the fact Michael described Arthur Leigh Allen as having a round face like the second guy he points to, indicating that he might not even remember what the Zodiac looked like. Despite confirming Allen, that moment still leaves us with a shred of doubt as to who the Zodiac really was.
It's not Arthur Lee Allen. Eyewitness ID from a chronic drug & alcohol abuser? Pretty sure? His first description after the shooting was much different than what Arthur Lee Allens physical appearance was in 1969. It wasn't Arthur Lee Allen.
He's equally great in the interview scene. He projects this absolutely chilling sense of menace and physical intimidation, but having watched it many times I still can't work out how he does it. None of the usual cliches, nothing over-done, just first rate acting.
He's a great actor. In particular, there was even one episode of The Walking Dead he was in, a unique stand-alone episode only featuring him and Lennie James (Morgan), and he was amazing in it. Fan of the show or not.
+James Howard Just found out that Hurdy Gurdy Man was playing at the start of the movie during the first killing on the radio. Even creepier. David Fincher is a genius.
Just imagine The Real Zodiac Killer has watched this film so many times and was like SMH. Just thinking about it is really creepy. Maybe he even watched its premiere.
aerialkate I know me too. I have had a interest in serial killer cases since I was a kid and it bothers me he was not caught. But I can remember doing a report on the green river killer back in school in the 90's and then 11 years later they busted his ass. I do not think it was leah the d.n.a did not match so it could not of been him? or could it of been?
What I love most about this movie is how it pulls in my obsession with Robert Graysmith's obsession with the Zodiac killer case without me even questioning why. There's a great atmosphere of unease and apprehension that the director sets in its tone throughout the movie. Most other movies in this genre would rely on shock value and or an overwhelming music score, yet this film gives us nuanced performances and low-key music and a great use of contemporary music from a bygone era.
I watched when I was young and when I learned that this was a true story, I was hoping for an positive ending. But as the film reached it's climax and then this ending, I was like, "But they can't just let the killer win.". But it was then I realized, HE ALREADY HAS....
@I drink your milkshake it's a great show for sure with an ensemble cast and good production quality. But requires a lot of patience to watch through, and it also has so many philosophical stuff which sometimes can fly through the viewer's head. still I will recommend you to watch it
this is pure genius, and the story is hauntigly scary. The fact that they never caught the Zodiac killer, but that everything related to the crimes or the phone calls stopped after Leigh's death is somehow creepy.
I cannot tell you how much I adore this film, all the actors are outstanding. The ending is so chilling 'I'm very sure, that's the man who shot me' then cuts to donavon. Amazing
Fincher Wright A lot of people think it was Lee doing the acts and his friend, Don Cheney doing the other stuff. Possibly even a 3rd man involved. Allen's connections alone are so plenty and obvious that the DNA not matching has spawned a huge move toward the multiple people hypothesis. The sheer number of "coincidences" with Allen are at a scale where he's almost impossible to remove as a suspect. It's not just a size or Zodiac watch thing but a ton of very creepy and VERY odd coincidences that cannot be ignored.
If, you look at the letters, even the handwriting looks different from letter to letter with some copied similarities. Its either copy cat killings, or these people worked as a team. Lee Allen was definitely involved though, but I don't think he was the only killer.
Powerful and intense. Great direction and a cast of terrific actors. Saw this twice and then recently "DVR'd it" when it aired on Sundance Network. Love Sundance because they present unedited films. But noticed now, they every so often (not frequently) insert commercials. WHAT is up with THAT? Ugh...p.s. am surprised I found your comment. I rarely check, but glad I did.
aaaredskin just realized I replied to your comment, but it is under MY replies to MY comment. duh....sorry. Still feeling my way through this whole google + thing. :-( ...hope you were able to see this. Personally, I am terrible at checking any replies made to me.
to +aaaredskin no worries.I hardly check responses anyway and am even wondering if you will see this. Just "stumbled across" This Google + 'thing' changes on a day to day basis! lol!
I like the fact that Robert told his wife that he needs to find out who the zodiac is and look in his eyes and knows its him at the end of the film he does just that
To OP. He had already been to prison for other minor crimes and I doubt he could go through another trial at his age even if he was acquitted. His heart attack probably was due to an unhealthy lifestyle. He was obese (very dangerous as one gets older) , and one witness who was shown pictures of him said that he had way too round a face and body to be the man who attacked them. And listen: The DNA found on the Zodiac letter, the hand-writing, grammar and forensic evidence *didn't match* . By the time they came up with DNA forensic it was clear Arthur Leigh Allen wasn't the Zodiac killer. He was a creep but not the murderer. Because people felt uncomfortable being close to him they jumped to conclusions he was the Zodiac killer. Most of what they had on him was so-called circumstantial evidence, but no real evidence tied him to any of the murders. Listen, there were other suspects this movie doesn't bother with . One of them actually went to prison for a crime and the Zodiac murderers stopped pretty much simultaneously. He did in prison so if he was the Zodiac murder his secret died with him.
It really seems the whole Zodiac thing was poorly investigated, with male survivor being shown the picture of a suspect 22 fucking years later, and he said it was him 100%. As i remember with a case of a girl that got a lift from the Zodiac (he claimed in letter he was in the car): She sat next to him in a car for minutes, in real life maybe half an hour and more, before he said those chilling words (before i kill you...), she must have somehow looked at him, she must have seen his face. I mean, imagine you get a lift from a stranger, even if it's dark, you'll see his face since he is freaking sitting next to you. Why was she never questioned more by police? If she was shown the photo of Leigh, it would have been same as with Mageau, she would be sure 100%, you don't forget faces in those situations.
that man in the car was never identified as Zodiac. and if my memory serves correctly so the movie also says that Zodiac was a attention seeker, that man in the car was someone else but Zodiac took the credit of that accident anyway. because he liked being in attention
The problem is the Zodiac kept taking credit for crimes he didn't do. He's a liar. And the best chance they had was when he shot the taxi driver. The cops thought a black man shot him, so they ignored a white guy leaving the scene.
If Gary is the Zodiac killer, then this movie must’ve been a comedy to him And what’s more chilling, if he is the killer, he died knowing he got away with the murders
If they can prove that Gary Francis Post was the zodiac, then your right. Imagine if you were him watching this movie in the theater decades after committing the crimes shown in the movie, and just slightly mocking everything the police did to find him knowing he got away with it all.
I feel like they missed an opportunity with that ace hardware scene, they show him writing something down on the clipboard with his left hand. Would have been disturbing as hell to see him writing with his right hand.
@@rick3844 There’s lots of false evidence in the movie. Like the scene of the maid telling Graysmith that the Zodiac called the house and said he needed to kill because it was his birthday and Graysmith concludes it was Allen’s birthday. It was actually a couple months later that that call was made and was mostly likely the mental patient who called in to the TV show. Also the scene that shows Allen wearing the wing walker boots. There’s no evidence he had a pair of those.
@@rick3844 Yeah, I love the movie but I was disappointed when I learned about certain things that were made up or left out of the movie. At least the ending is still somewhat ambiguous though.
This film is so different to me. It's slow and quiet, almost mundane. And that's how it gets under your skin, and you will never forget the moment you realized it's too late.
From 3:34, the emotions, the tension, the music...it still gives me the f*ing creeps, and I don't scare easy. This has to be among the best movie endings, ever. And being a San Francisco native, growing up in the 80s, though I don't remember the news on the zodiac, but now when I think of how old I was on the timeline of those murders, it chills my bones. Thank you for such a great (underrated) movie.
It was a great choice to end with "Hurdy Gurdy Man" as that opening scene and the song really got imbedded into my brain and under my skin. Such a powerful film, it's surprising how seemingly overlooked it is. It's a pretty long film, but you get so invested in it that it seems much shorter.
I listen to Hurdy Gurdy man whenever I feel like being disturbed. The association of that song with this film is that strong. Which is funny since the first time I heard it was when I watched Sleepers (1996).
"Hurdy Gurdy Man" at the end gives me chills so hard I feel like I'm gonna faint. From the interviews I've seen, Michael was very hyperactive. He could not sit still and talked very fast. I'm sure in this somber moment he could have been subdued, however. I can't remember now if the real Mike is actually convinced it was Arthur Lee Allen or not. Either way, brilliant film!
"I am not the Zodiac. And if it where, I certainly wouldn't tell you" It's a haunting statement, and if you delve deeper, you'll realize how much more haunting it really was than what it was on the surface. See, the uncertainty of whether or not he was the Zodiac was the most evocative and subtle point of all, even above the points considering evidences, statements of witnesses and the like. Arthur Leigh Allen was the most likely one right? Toscha even pointed out he was his most favorite suspect. But what would you do if even the evidences could back out on you? If there's no substance within it? I was certainly convinced that Leigh was the Zodiac and it was even stated at the concluding scene that after he died of heart attack, the inimical calls to Robert Graysmith had ceased, thus corroborating his incrimination. He may or may not be... he certainly is, subjectively of course. In my eyes, of course. So how? why? And even if he was, his crimes would be gone unpunished. I don't wanna sound religious, but should this Zodiac be dead, the only one that would serve him justice is the existence of hell. That's how creepy the Zodiac killer was. He gets into you, even if he's dead already. Gone in the whirring wind, his chilling legacy unwavering.
TheLumpyHeavy The same thing with how they convicted Scott Peterson with no direct evidence (all circumstantial), if Allen was alive he would've been charged especially when one of the surviving victims ID Allen as the shooter.
***** well the dna did not match so who knows. I wish we did find out. I remember when they got the green river killer after all that time. The green river killer started killing when I was a baby and I remember coming home from work one day when I was in my early 20's and turning on the news to see they had got him at his job I was shocked.
TheLumpyHeavy does anyone else think someone set up Allen because they knew he had problems and took advantage of the situation? could be his friend that testified (or was willing to testify) against him? maybe that's why he stopped calling Robert after Allen died to make it look more convincing..
My friend's grandfather was portrayed in this film. Melvin Belli was an international lawyer that had a local radio show where the Zodiac killer would call in. My friend and his family got to choose the actor to portray their grandad. Fun facts lol
The beauty of this movie is the feeling of time, as in years, passing and key players who are involved in the story becoming fading memories except for graysmith. I actually watched this film twice in a row during a long flight back from overseas. Pure cinema excellence!!!
I know Mageau was not available for giving information about the zodiac, but why didn't they ask the lady with the 10 month old baby to recognize Arthur Leigh Allen. She did ride with him right? Am I missing something?
Sean Ryan Yes, I'm aware of that. But, when they narrowed down their suspects to Allen, I'm wondering why they didn't ask her to ID him again. She did in fact recognize the artist's sketch of the zodiac!
I love when at 0:56 Baker Street plays, w/ such a long journey behind him he's finally reached he end and the song that plays is a symbol of triumph, self servingly but still.
The achievement of this film cannot be underestimated. This is a murder mystery with no resolution, and we already know there will be no resolution, and yet it is never for one second less than riveting.
Crazy right I live in Woodland California, which is like 45 minutes south from Vallejo I actually visited the Herman Road lovers lane a couple months ago back and to actually see it was errie and interesting. And really was dark and absolutely nothing out there but a winding road
This is by far my favorite David Fincher project. This story, acting and music entrances me from start to finish every time I watch it. I think this and "Spotlight" would be an incredible double feature.
I have watched this film several times and even after all of my multiple viewings I can't verbalize exactly what about this movie makes me so spellbound by it. That scene at the end gets me every time. I've often thought the times and the lack of some technology added to the difficulty in catching Zodiac but there's plenty of unsolved cases now that don't have the fanfare of the Zodiac so Zodiac may not have been apprehended in any era.
Just finished watching this film there on BBC 2. Absolutely brilliant viewing and the ending is absolutely outstanding. Just outstanding. I'm going to have to read the book now. I need to say though that I was absolutely gutted when Arthur Lee Allens dna returned no matches when scrutinised using new technology.
I love how Graysmith gives arthur that look like " I know who you are". To me thats a victory and tells zodiac that your identity is not completely unknown. Graysmith looked him in the eyes like he said he was going to do.
I remember going to see this movie. I was one of maybe 6 people in the theater. I knew how it would end regarding Arthur Leigh Allen, since I had seen a documentary on the Zodiac years earlier, but it didn't deter my enjoyment of this movie one bit. I love Fincher movies, but this one is by far my favorite.
Digital West They "lost him", didn't know where he was, and after a while they didn't care about him any more that much because they found all those other evidence which pointed on Arthur Leigh Allen.
There literally wasn't much more evidence against Allen then the short list of circumstantial notes, which are more or so coincidences. Allen's fingerprints never matched, his arm print didn't match, DNA never matched, handwriting samples from BOTH hands never matched, never any balistic connections between Allen and Z, Allen looked nothing like the composite drawing, Officer Don Fouke has said on record that the suspect he briefly encountered the night of Paul Stine's murder was NOT ALA...so again, there's no real evidence implicating Allen.
It,s chilling to know how serial killers can have such an effect on the whole country. This is one of the most realistic actual portrayals I,I've seen but don't ever forget about the real tragedy the victims or the survivors.
I absolutely love this film, one of the my favorites, but I do not believe Arthur Leigh Allen was the Zodiac Killer. He looks absolutely nothing like the composite sketches, the handwriting doesn't match, the DNA doesn't match, and the voice is not at all like what was described by those who spoke with the Zodiac. Still, there are a large number of coincidences that are too dang fascinating lol.
Certainly possible, but I personally find it unlikely. While there have been serial killers who have teamed up, it's very rare. The Zodiac did not really seem to be someone willing to share his "glory" with another. This was a very narcissistic (likely caused by a major inferiority complex) and psychopathic individual who craves attention and recognition for his crimes. Everything about what we know just screams to me that he is a loner.
+Dylan's Fear Files I get that, but the evidence in this case and the whole approach of the Zodiac (taking credit for other people's crimes for example) just make it a totally unique situation. The fact that the DNA, handwriting and certain physical descriptions don't add up suggest to me that others were involved.
Zodiac's handwriting seems pretty consistent to me personally. The physical descriptions are interesting, but I think a lot of that can be chalked up to faulty memory due to the stressful situation, especially when it comes to Michael Mageau. I mean no disrespect to him, as it's horrible what happened to him, but he is not a very reliable witness. He's changed his story multiple times and contradicted himself. The consistent voice described between Bryan Hartnell, Nancy Slover, and David Slaight hints towards one Zodiac also. Just wanted to say also that it's nice to have a friendly conversation with someone on the internet. It's a sadly rare thing!
+Dylan's Fear Files the handwriting is consistent and experts said it wasn't Lee's. The physical description from the eyewitnesses and the police officer after the Paul Stine murder describe a thin man with a widow's peak. All of the other descriptions fit Lee but that one. It could be dismissed, but Zodiac was clearly involved in it as he sent pieces of Stine's shirt to the police.
Jake Gyllenhaal (Graysmith) and John Carroll Lynch (Arthur Leigh Allen) were also in the comedy "Bubbleboy" together. Lynch played Gyllenhaal's father.
