This video is basically useless because you completely skips over the setting up phase, which is the basic of any tutorial

I'm sorry you had this experience with PF2, but it's definitely not a system for everyone. I have noticed the difficulty that many players have with it and I no longer present it as the solution for any group. But I confess that I don't understand the difficulty in creating homebrew content within PF2. I always felt that the balance that the system has brings freedom and not obstacles. I have much more difficulty deciding during the session about unresolved rules from other systems. And DeD 5e really gave me the biggest headaches with combo players and completely broken spells. But I'm excited about some new systems that have emerged, like DC20 for example. Perhaps the future of RPG lies on other horizons.

I am an avid pf2 player. Pf2 fixed 100% of the problems I had with 5e. I think this is a really well reasoned take on why someone would leave pf2. Your system has to match your group and the system has to match the story/setting you want to play. Pf2 isn’t for everyone or everyone’s stories. I think the pf2 community can really struggle to understand that sometimes.

I fully understand where you're coming from on the homebrew aspect - clearly that's a big part of the enjoyment for both you and your players. As someone who also switched to 2e around the same time as you did, I completely agree that the watertight balance makes homebrewing or tweaking anything a very anxiety-inducing task, lest you accidentally spring a leak. That said, I absolutely love the system and while something like the vast amounts of 3rd party resources available online could be a boon to some people, the fact that I don't need them for 2e is even better in my eyes. I haven't needed to look up homebrew systems, rulings, items or additional content at all in this system because practically everything I've ever wanted to do has had existing rules. For me, that massively tips the balance to 2e and I'm not sure I could go back to DMing 5e again.

The Set-Up: My group has been playing in our campaign world for decades. For us, the setting takes precedence over the game system, so anytime I change the rules we are using, I have to modify them to fit the setting. In other words, the game rules are the operating system, and the setting is the computer. Years ago, when our PF1 campaign was about to wrap up, I was about to switch over to a different system (AD&D 1st ed) but saw that PF2 was about to come out. After checking out the downloadable playtest material, I sold my group on switching over to it (it also helps when you buy everyone a player's handbook). After modifying it to fit the setting, it played quite well. Despite what the PF2 fanboys say about homebrew, PF2 can be homebrewed easily, hell in the PF2 GM book they list several ways to change PF2. After a few years, my players wanted something different. After 40 years of running TTRPGs, I decided to homebrew a system that is a mix of B/X, 1st ed AD&D, and a few other systems. We've been running that for over a year now. It’s a game that truly fits my setting.

I very excitedly got into PF2. After weekly games for 6 months, going up in levels etc. I grew to dread the sessions. The crunch is way too intense. The magic item system made me hate the game. The 3 action system felt like a bait and switch. It didn't, in fact, add more options or choices. I enjoy playing 5th Ed, and OSR clones, D&D Basic and Shadowdark SOOOOO much!

Colville tells that story of someone calling d&d hours of arguing about rules wrapped around 15 minutes of actual fun. That’s exactly what playing in a PF2e campaign has been like for me. I don’t play a PC a lot in 5e but as a DM I can whip out a ruling on the spot without messing up the game. I can create an interesting creature in about 2 minutes and a meat shield in about 5 seconds. PF2 is needlessly complicated and the so called balance doesn’t actually exist if you don’t use all of the rules interactions. I want to like PF2 more than 5e because I refused to buy anything from WOTC but something like A5e does the crunchy side better and Shadowdark does the rules light I crave sometimes.

I understand the feelings for PF2e, had some similar ines myself last year. Hope you group has fun back in 5e. Only point i disagree with you on is the support reason of not going to a new/5e adjacent system. Yes 5e has the most third party stuff, but that more reason we need creators like you to branch out. Also you say you crazy homebrew is part of your joy, and missed in you group, then you dont need third party stuff anyways.

It's interesting listening to your views as a player and gm I have no issues with monsters creating but the rest of the homebrew stuff I actually dislike. It's part of the reason I find 5e to be the worst version of d&d for me and why I stopped playing it and played all the other editions (including 4e) over 5e

I"m in a very awkward position where we just ended a five-year long campaign in 5e with plenty of homebrew, and one of the players has been pushing hard for us to switch to P2E because she likes the customization as a player. And that's it. We asked her to run the beginner module to try and sell us on the system, but she's not a great GM and isn't really teaching us the rules as we go along (or bothering to research a rule when we do something classic RPG-esque like light a spider web on fire). I think I'd enjoy P2E in a different group, but this video is really contributing to my confirmation bias for not switching with my current group. 😅

I think Pathfinder 2e is really good at providing a curated experience with crunchy rules and nuanced teamwork-oriented combat. It's like a beautiful cathedral. However, if you're used to the stack of LEGO bricks that is 5e, it can feel very restrictive. I prefer the LEGO bricks where I can make my own thing without worry.

Tbh, in any game, balance == boring. Imba is another thing, but it's fun. I like fun. Good to see a pf2e to 5e vid. It creates balance 😜. To me, ttrpg is best, use what works for you, look around, mix, blend, be creative and use that

Ive always felt similar! You really nailed it here, thanks for putting the voice of this side of the argument out there.

I have hopes for DC20. Check it out.

I totally agree with this video it sums up hove I've been feeling about PF2E. Im planning on switching back to 5e when my current campaign ends. Though I still wont be buying anymore WOTC products.

I think PF2 is a really excellent game. It’s a well oiled, finely crafted machine that chugs along smoothly… just as long as you don’t touch it. If you do want to touch it, you better have invested dozens of hours learning about it and possess a game design degree before you even think about hacking it. That’s precisely why I fell off PF2 as well. Game design is a large party of what I derive fun from GMing. I like hacking rules and inventing new subsystems and modding the games I play. PF2 ain’t built to make that easy. And certainly its community is absolutely atrocious in that respect and absolutely hates anyone that even thinks that the system is anything less than perfect and wants to change anything about it. The system ain’t perfect. No system is. Of course, PF2 has less imperfections in it than 5e. But at least with 5e I can fix those problems. Or at least, look for a third party solution where someone else has already fixed that problem. Trying to tinker with PF2 is plain impossible. It’s too tightly bound. Its math is too tight. It holds many assumptions and you have to play very rigidly within those assumptions or the whole thing falls apart. So yeah I quit PF2 too. I think it’s an excellent product for the end consumer. For someone that wants a complete, functioning product out of the box. But it ain’t for tinkerers like me and you. I jumped to D&D 4e instead. Which is pf2, but better 😁

There’s a reason why they used to call it Mathfinder! I played PF1e to start with and we almost always spent half the session rules lawyering and arguing about edge case moments in throwing items, using bombs, counting 5-10-5-10 when using squares (because you can go farther in a turn if you don’t respect geometry). Switching to 5e felt like a breeze, but it also made my players absolute gremlins at the table. We were so used to trying to break the hard and fast rules at the table that 5e gave everybody enough wiggle room in the rules to really be annoying. I haven’t played PF2 yet, but I also am considering moving even further up the rules-light path towards Cypher system, and I don’t play with my fellow gremlin players anymore. That was definitely part of the problem.

I understand what you're saying I've switched like 3 months abo to PF2 and I agree with the gripes but it doesn't seem fair to say 5e one of the simplest system and one many have mastered is easier to homebrew, I mean yes! But also just ignore rules you don't like in Pathfinder, don't be afraid of a table ruling. Agree to look it up later. I think you over thought and hit analysis paralysis, it's okay to just do the fun thing in pathfinder just as it is in D&D

What's broken with casters in Pf2e?

I DMed 5e for 6 and a half years now and I recently switched to PF2e. I think this was just a happy accident, but PF2e turned out to be the perfect system for me and my group. I finally doesn't have to play guessing game with the rules and the numbers, everything is written down and it only took once to look up things and learn it. Combat finally feels satisfying for both the martials and the casters, the monsters have competent abilities that can actually threaten the players. The magic items are balanced, have an economy and does produce a lot of interesting options. My last session was probably the best GMing experience I had in the last 6 years because everything worked out exactly as the system promised it and it was a blast. Homebrewing for PF2e also feels a lot easier because every rule is laid out to you and there is little to no guessing game. I still run my 5e game that is going for 6 years now. The party reached level 20 last month, but I absolutely came to despise 5e. The entire system falls apart beyond level 13, spells are instant win buttons and I constantly need to balance around a handful of broken spells spells and abilities. High levels monsters doesn't have anything that can actually threaten the party and homebrewing to this at this point is just a mess. I certainly understand that PF2e isn't for everyone, but for me and my group, it was like a miracle that we needed for years now.

This is a well-considered and honest reflection. Glad you had the openness to blowback that comes with critique of a passionately loved system. I left PF2 as a GM and player about year ago, after really enjoying it from launch. The world of Golarion, the movement of rules together like gears in a grand watch - both were very appealing to me. For me, it's the counting of squares. I am not a wargamer, and they don't interest me. I'll also say that both 5e and PF2 are sorely lacking in storytelling tools for games that claim to be about creating rich, grand adventures and all the dramatic moments therein. In the meantime, I have discovered many other games. Currently, I play Fallout 2d20 (zones for movement, emphasis on inventory management and survival in a dangerous postapocalyptic world) and GM Fabula Ultima (elegant rules for collaborative world-building in and between sessions and conflicts, not just the typical GM rat maze). I am also excited to play Dragonbane, Ryuutama, ROOT, and Die RPG in the future.

11:06 “Making Bonkers Esoteric Crap On The Fly Is Where I Do Some Of My Best Work As A GM” 👏AGAIN 👏FOR 👏THE 👏PEOPLE 👏IN 👏THE👏BACK

This is a wonderful conversation and an important one too, thank you for sharing this, grand content

Also its worth mentioning that theere are so many other systems out there other than pf2 and 5e. Try them. This idea that its one or the other is crazy and bad for the hobby.

Im older than you. And have a lot more game systems in my head. Ive been playing games since the 1970s, and have so many games. So many indy games. So while I think its perfectly fine that you and your group play what you like the age thing? I dont buy it. PF2 not working out for you, thats perfectly fine, but dont blame the age.

Thank you for the video. You mentioned your players had issues with casters and martials. I'd like to know what issues those were to help understand the situation even more completely.

When I was creating a Magic Item Price List, I decided everything in Xanathar's was nonsense, and instead came up with prices for each level scroll. I then look at the item and ask "what level of spell does this emulate?" Consumables are the same price. Daily use is 10x. Unlimited/charges, is 25x.

I tried PF2 and damn, it was bad. Don't get me wrong, there's some cool ideas, like ancestries and archetypes instead of multiclass. But after few years, pf2 repeats sins of pf1, where too many options (I still remember, when there's priest crusader and warpriest existed together, or 5 variants of same concept "alchemist with traps"), again very uncomfortable math (I'm tired of this "+1 for being city elf, +2 for eating good, -1 for high humidity") and some strange things (no short rest, why?) So, for me, it's very bad system. If I want to create anything - I would play gurps, if I want heroic fantasy - dnd 5e, for other things - Savage Worlds/Fate/7th sea 1e/DCC/WFRP 4e and so on

It sounds to me like what it comes down to is your homebrew. You said it yourself that you really enjoy homebrewing, and with PF2e already having defined rules for just about everything, that really doesn't leave a whole lot for you to solve. You've already homebrewed up 5e to the point that you've sorta created your own system that you are extremely familiar with and really enjoy running, because it is custom tailored to you. That's a hard match-up for any other system to win against. If you ever do return to giving PF2e a second chance, try running it more flexible and not so RAW. While the vocal side of the community is against homebrew, ignore them. Although I agree you should try to give RAW a chance before you stick your own rules in, you already have. Try your hand at homebrew - there is a large subset of players who do, myself included. Don't be so afraid of "breaking" the system. Honestly PF2e is robust enough that nothing is going to majorly collapse just from tweaking one thing. It sounds like you burnt yourself out being so focused on balance and from rules lawyering at the table. Just make something up that makes sense on the spot and look it up later. Nothing consumes the fun more than players having to sit around and wait while you reference the rulebook.

I keep running 5e because its core systems are similar to AD&D 2nd edition, if you excise the optional side of the multiclassing and feats and remove them for the most part. I use 5e to provide the quality game experience by making it my game Don't let the corporations own your table

Switching from great system (PF2) to mediocre (D&D 5.0)... interesting choice. But, to answer your question: switching from Dark Heresy 2ed to Wrath&Glory. This was gamechanger for my group. Few players of mine hate d100 mechanics. Wrath & Glory use pool of d6 (mechanics very similar to warhammer miniatures wargames) and allows much customization and building on-fly with still fairly crunchy and granular rules. (Reasonable crunch is good, don't change my mind)

Honestly I think pathfinder is balanced mainly around the two core system: the 3 action economy and multi attack penalty. Adding options for creatures shouldn't change the ballance too much, because everyone can still spend only 3 actions per turn. It's interesting how this reputation that pathfinder has (as a balanced system with a lot of rules) doesn't necessarily translate into positives, but can create assumptions that "it's a delicate system and any chances GM does, or improvised actions player wants can break the whole game apart". Anyway, it's great to see this type of videos, because it helps developers and community to change the system and it's reputation for the better.

I hate this genre of video because you have the ability to take a break from a system and come back later. Playing ttrpgs is not a monogamous experience. You don't need to pledge loyalty to one and shittalk others systems. Pathfinder 2e and 5e both have issues, but creating videos like these or bashes on 5e helps no one

I think DC20 is going to be the best compromise? Looks to Address the issue from both systems, what do others think?

I homebrew the crap out of P2e individually for each campaign I have run since P2e came out. It is so modular that you can literally unplug entire subsystems and plug in your own. One of the expansion books has an entire plug in Magic System that you could plug in to replace the default rules if you wanted. I've been playing D&D and a few clones since 1980. I've played every version of D&D except 4th edition. Half my players date back to the 1980's and they love P2e. Play what you like, its a game so play what gives you enjoyment. The cardinal rule though is no game pauses while you look up rules. Improvise. If it is that important then call for a bathroom break. In the last 2 years we've only stopped to consult the rules twice.

I switched from 5E to PF2E about 1.5 years ago and here are my thoughts. 5E and PF2E are both pretty crunchy RPG systems, the difference being that 5E is like they just quit developing it published it in an incomplete state. PF2E will probably be the last crunchy system I learn and there is no way I will go back to 5E. If I want something different I'll run SWADE, Shadowdark, EZD6, TinyD6, Mork Borg, Castles & Crusades, OSE and on and on and on....

To each their own. I have not a single problem with pf2e. Specially since I COMPLETELY deleted 5e from my mind before even start reading and learning pf2e.

I'm not disappointed that you decided that PF2E is not right for you and your group. I am disappointed that you went back to 5E. Even if they walked back the kill the OGL this time...AGAIN, that does not mean they won't try it again a third time. Yeah, this wasn't even the first time they tried that nonsense. The fact that people are walking past this after the SECOND TIME just shows them that they can keep doing it until it actually works. On top of that, the Pinkertons? The repeated use of AI art...including even AFTER they had a policy saying they won't. You can choose whatever you want...but I get to judge you for your choice. I would say that really, the only thing I can't say anything against is, you need to go back to 5E because money. Look, you need to eat, and I can hate it as much as I want, but that is gonna be the market giant currently. But don't mistake that as it will always be so. Remember that PF1E had a bigger market than D&D4E for a good bit of time. Even if WotC doesn't implode, they can do enough bad that they can lose that market share. That said, PF2E is STUPIDLY easy to homebrew and make new things for. They even have working guidelines for doing it easily. I do it all the time. It's so much easier to do it and not have it utterly ruin my game than 5E. Hell, I can give the guidelines to a player and let them create something they want and as long as they follow the guideline, I don't have to worry about it breaking my game. When was the last time you saw a player created homebrew in 5E that wasn't completely bonkers broken? Yeah...never. As for the casters not being utterly broken like in 5E...yeah if I have a caster complain to me that they can't be as broken as casters in 5E as a legitimate complaint against a system, they lost all credibility to me about game design. No matter what your game design is about, even if you want a superhero game, you don't have some choices be superheroes and other's be mere normal soldiers. That is very bad game design. That would be like a game of Call of Chuthulu where everyone is normal mortal humans, but the investigator...well if you play that archetype, you can bend the world to your whim and make elder being bend to your will. No...that is stupid game design. Okay, you wanna be superheroes? That's fine, play a game system where everyone is overpowered superheroes. Like Aberrant. Or Mage. Or Vampire, Don't play PF2E. That is a TERRIBLE system for that. You need teamwork to be effective. I have friends who like being overpowered superheroes. It's why they use to play 5E. Until I showed them that utterly borked systems ain't that fun when you aren't the one breaking it the most. It was funny, they thought they were making powerful characters...and I didn't even go full tilt. Then they realized why all the other players who played with them weren't having fun all of a sudden. And why they were not invited back so often. Yeah...they are problem players generally speaking. Playing PF2E with them...especially through pre-written AP...which forces teamwork has been a good thing with them playing other systems. It even made them open up to more narrative systems...like Fate and Fudge systems. As for what style of games I like to play and run...YES. I like WoD. I like CoC. I like Fate and Fudge. I like Trinity and Aberrant. I like the new Avatar RPG. I like OSR and AD&D and AD&D 2E games. I like PF2E. I like PF1E. What you will notice empty is anything from WotC. As a system...don't have much against it...but the company itself has made these games for all intent and purposes not exist. So much bad that I can not even support them on a level of using things I already own from them as playing the game is support.

But why try and break the balance?

my own experiences and those i know, had pretty much the opposite experiences with PF2. it's beautifully balanced AND homebrewing comes pretty naturally once you grow used to the system. been playing ttrpg's since the seventies through the very rough days of D&D, GURPS, and some very strange others - finding each had it's own flavour and that the experience of each was very much coloured by the game runner. i've known some game runners with very strong preferences and prejudices - so i've heard variants of your statements in this video for decades on why they only played this or that system and how other systems didn't work for them (yes, home brewing came up in those conversations, too). in the end, all their reasons and explanations invariably boiled down to two things: comfort and familiarity - nothing more, ever...

I do enjoy playing pf2, but the system does have one major sticking point that stops me frim making it the main system I play, and thats the game balance. Pf2 is balanced in all the wrong places.

Finally, someone who shares the same issue i also have with PF2E, personally me i really dislike the Tag system and the Over Codified rules. People dont realize somtimes how much more free 5E actually feels when doing skill checks and not having to look up weather or not that "action" is a "Rule". instead the DM is more free to just be like "yeah okay, give me a Dex roll and apply this prof if it applies!" Sure PF2E is still a decent system i still play it with one of my groups, but I do prefer less constraint systems rather than "Balanced" systems that are very restrictive. and I agree 5E is much easier to Homebrew stuff for.

I will never fault anyone on their games of choice. Good on you! Thanks for the insightful explainations on your experience with PF2. Our table is different, we are Pathfinder veterans, and we just finished Crown of the Kobold King for PF2. Without even making an effort we PLOWED through this module. Not even funny. Yep, the math is tight, but veteran players makes PF2 just very easy. I'm betting we will return to PF1 at some point.

I'm here just for the salty Pf2 evangelist's comments.

I had the same experience and ended up leaving the system. On top of all, Pf2e put my players in a "winning the game" mindset, like in a board game. I played with them for years and we never had these issues. Don't recommend it to anyone.

I run 5e, PF2, and DC20. Out of all of these, I enjoy DC20 the best. 5e for me feels flat at times, and combat is not very interesting. PF2 I like the balance, but I feel like the rules get in the way of the potential fun from time to time, and the combat can feel stiff, especially after playing DC20. So far, I think DC20 has fixed the problems with both systems, and I hope Dungeon Coach continues to knock it out of the park with DC20!

My dude, I want to hear your opinion, but you keep being vague. Please talk about specific cases, it would be way more persuasive than "if you give this monster that ability you'll break the time space continuum"