Just found your channel. Good stuff! New to watching senior tennis on RU-vid. As a past college player and consistent req player over the past 30 yrs I find my competitive juices amping up. Good players make it look easy. Mark Vines makes it look easy. Some of the other guys give me encouragement that I might be able to compete. Love the channel…
Great video boys! Are you still doing your workshops? I am coming back to tennis after 24 yrs of racing Ironman triathlons. I really agree with you that what i call winning ugly is super important in senior tennis. That Mark Vines guys game looks like shit and he dominates.
Just discovered your channel - nice job guys. I've been playing sectional and some national events (I have to fly to most of them so not as many Level 1s unfortunately) and play on sectional teams. The only thing that I feel I need to complete my tennis resume is a ball of some color so I find your videos very helpful. I'm a 56 year old 5.0 tournament player that didn't start tennis until I was 14. Fortunately, my first tennis teaching pro taught me a semi-western FH in 1980 (thanks for the topspin strokes Bjorn!) and it has won me a ton of matches against my contemporaries that have flat FHs and especially one handed backhands. I can hit the ball high over their shoulders from both sides - I have a two handed BH that I can hit flat or with spin - and let go with one hand on that side if I have a lower ball on the follow through. Whenever I see someone that hits a flat ball my confidence in the matchup goes way up unless they hit very hard or have a great serve as I can often push my opponents back. I think what needs to be said is that most players over 60 hit flat if they started young because that's how the game was taught then. If I started under 10 years of age I would be hitting flat too. I agree, variety is of utmost importance so you can be adaptable to certain situations. As a PTR pro I teach all of my younger players a variety of strokes.
Great video discussion Brent. Mark is so quick off the opponents racket. Rarely is he rushed. Seeing the ball early is one of his many strengths. And at contact. Very clean striker.
Here's hoping you guys continue to do this. If you do, might it be an option to do a bit of "What's the Right Shot" too? Using footage from other senior doubles tournaments and maybe doing some pinpoint analysis of shot choices or positions to illustrate some of what you have taught us in GBH would be awesome....more work maybe....but awesome.
Hey Mark, Thank you for being a loyal listener and supporting our message ! Brent and I are taking the week off while we are at the Wilson World Classic here in Palm Springs. Thanks for the suggestions, as we are talking about how best to serve the GBH community. Jeff
Don't technique your opponent to death. Use strokes that you own and develop a game style that works for you and forget about hitting the ESPN highlight reel. Use video.
One of many past year incidents I find provocative was the day you showed Mark Vines' one hand mildly topped backhand, so much more simple and doable than what I had been attempting my entire tennis life. I no longer hit spectacular winners offset by misses or mediocre shots. On backhand side I usually go for sizzling flat phylum (and quick) underspin or slice. In doubles service returns I have yet to be picked off at the net. Old people seem more apt to know and share great secrets like this. -- John Escher, 80 .
So due to unfortunate events I am unable to play tennis with my dominant arm for a long time. As I am currently learning to use my opposite hand should I be treating myself as a different player with different forehand/backhand grips or should would it be better to try and carry over the old grip/mechanics?
I play only doubles. I have been hitting the ball down the middle way more as a result of what I have learned. My partners are all of the sudden getting way more volleys and are liking me as a partner a lot more.
MajorDan here - played my latest match last night. Played the same guy for the third time (aside - the young pro who organizes this, noted that some players had dropped off, others had been added so he mixed things up. So I played the same guy again ???. A lot of young pros went to college to play, now teach and that's all they know how to do) anyway, first time I played him, I won in a breaker but played very tentatively , not very good tennis. Second time I played better - but so did he - I lost in a breaker ! This time I started slow - got down 4-1 with him serving but I picked things up, broke and ended up with him serving 5-4 15-40. But I couldn't manage the break. I don't think I choked, just didn't find the winning combination. but I had him on the brink. got up 5-2 in the second set !! He held for 5-3 -tied in games when time ran out. Played a breaker which I won 7-2. !! yippee for me :) 1 - after a slow start I played a pretty solid game 2 - he is a chameleon - the better I play the better he plays. Probably unintentional but makes strategy hard to figure out 3- stopped using formula strategies and just played my game, tried for force him when I had the chance, make him keep up with me. 4 - I also took away one of his favorite shots - a cross-court slice forehand that he hits both offensively and defensively to good effect. When I didn't take him wide on the fh side, he would hit it wide or not at all. didn't win many points with it. 5 - late in the 2nd set and into the breaker I went after his forehand (not wide but deep down the middle and serves) . I felt that if I did this all match he would adjust but by springing it on him late, when point pressure was there, it might pay dividends, He made 3 or 4 forehand errors in the tie-breaker ! including the last two points. I was really worn out afterward and even late in the match had to keep making myself try hard and keep fighting. Slept well :) I also moved better, with my new off-the-ground footwork ! Question for the experts: what strategy/strategies do you use when you play one of these chameleon guys - generic game, mostly mirror what you do and keep the ball in play ? its an odd game but I don't really have good answers.
Good feedback Mark. Even with a player who's got a clear skill set, I still want to show a lot of false advertising. Meaning ... disguise. Rather than moving him just side to side or down the middle, I like to move em up and back too. The slice backhand is my weapon of choice to 'show' depth again and then go with a dropper. Once they're not sure where they're going to have to move to next ... Brent
@@GoldBallHunting OK, I'll do more of that next time. I did throw in a few droppers off his second serve and got some milage from it. Just weird to play someone 3 times and still not have a handle on how to play him. I usually figure that out in a few games :)
MajorDan here - still have my serve in my tool kit :) however, got video equipment for Christmas (thanks Santa :) ) . Did a test of concept on Sunday. ran out of memory after less than 2 games - resolution too high, my phone needed charging etc. but when I watched it it was shocking. I was glued to the ground and not moving very well. Funny also that my practice partner cryptically complemented me - can't remember his words but in effect he said (but more subtly) you hit a really good ball and you have to because you can't hardly cover the court yet you hang in there in points. Left handed compliment ? after watching the video I saw what he meant. The cause of this is that I have been favoring my previously injured knee by avoiding pounding and as a result got completely grounded. So this week I have gotten on the treadmill and gotten my jogging stride working again (was walking and running like an old man @#$@^*@^) . Also out in the driveway doing high stepping and bouncing, etc. Seems like the knee is holding up and that I don't have to be grounded, I can run, move, jump etc. I was just over-favoring the previous injury. So I am re-educating my body. Luckily the strength is there, it is more habit and remembering to move correctly. Who knew the video would pay such dividends so quickly. ?
Ah man mark. Congrats on taking the next step with video. Total eye opener. Talk about the 3 Cs! Starts with that Clarity you described about the need to raise the fitness level. Can't wait to see how you're doing in a couple of months. Brent
@@GoldBallHunting me too ! But the first step is just readjusting my movement patterns - getting my feet off the ground. And that is already happening. Moving quicker at the net in doubles/ better first step, covering more ground in singles. A ways to go but I haven't lost it, just set it aside for a while out of fear of reinjuring my knee. But it is holding up well and it's time to move past that.
MajorDan here - was it this episode or another close by, Brent talked about the 3C's: Clarity, Commitment/Conviction, Courage. Was watching Camilia Georgi play on TV yesterday and she approaches every shot with the 3C's. Also very hot and cold, beats herself as often as she beats opponents. Nicholas Bashilishvili was like this a few years ago too but modified his game and then climbed to the Top 20 ! Seems like there is a fourth component - common sense, game sense, what people used to call the illusive 'percentage tennis' shot making ? what do you think ?
Mark. At the pro level, there's a clear line between 100% confident and 99% confident. And if you're not at that 100% level, you're not in the conversation. How does a player go from 99 to 100? The 3 Cs for THAT player. Giorgi is a high risk high reward player. Could she develop a different mindset that would get her to a higher ranking? You'd have to ask her what her ultimate goal is. Might be that she's content to be where she's at right now. Brent
Among many, #1: you can never hit too many slice backhands! I like my one-handed topspin backhand, but I LOVE my slice backhand. For some reason I believed there's a right ratio of topspin/slice. Thanks to the examples and interviews you gentlemen provided this past year, I now know the reality is, there isn't. Some players hit exclusively topspin and some exclusively slice and all points in between. I now more confidently hit whatever shot feels right for the moment or match, and if it's 99% slice, then that's what was right. Thanks for all you both do.
If I have to go with one thing I am going to make the general statement senior tennis is not ATP tennis anymore then pickleball is. It is a different game. That means one needs to approach conditioning and practicing totally differently and spend more time on injury prevention and recovery.
KJ. Good call. Journeyman ball is high quality. Might not always get you on the ESPN's 11pm Top 10 Shots of the Day, but you'll win more matches. Brent
Major Dan here - my biggest take-away is to play strategically instead of technically. The path to winning more is not more technique but a focus on where I am hitting the ball and what benefit I gain from that placement. It's been fun being let into your world to learn from your experiences.
This isn't about stroke technique. I've been beaten by poor technique. My one take-away was processing what "limiting my skill level range" meant to me. My improvement hasn't come from hitting more balls. It has come from moving without the ball because that is something that I (all of us) can do. I may not have 5.0 strokes, but I can move "more" to get into proper (5.0) position. That has led to several quality volleys, put-aways and fewer errors.
My biggest take away was reducing grip tension whenever I can. It makes a big difference. I also enjoyed watching Jimmy Parker's style of play. I don't agree with the training conclusions about the first four balls though. :-) Thanks for the vids guys! Very much enjoyed them.
I have watched this video twice (not because I was mentioned) but because it talks about a huge step I need to take in my improvement. I just played a match where I focused very hard on my opponent not on what I was doing. I feel I am learning a whole new stroke from scratch. It isn't comfortable at all. I don't think just saying I need to find the ball my opponent dislikes is enough for me. How do I do it? Focus on what he is missing or giving me a weak ball off of? Play everything to their forehand for a few points then to backhand, then higher shots, low shots etc. I am sure its all the above and more. On the court for the first time it felt very jumbled. I am looking for more of a roadmap.
Major Dan here - an insight into Mark Vines' 'counting shots' D game - played some intramural tennis today. Doubles, then singles. Killed in doubles, everything working, felt great. Then singles - I guess I was still in doubles mode and doubles returns and doubles serves aren't really helpful :). got down 0-5 and really no game plan that was working, so I challenged myself to make each point at least 4 shots (my 4 shots). Its not as simple as that however. Just hitting 4 balls back doesn't work. going wide and opening up the point shortens points. Hitting medium speed, medium depth central placement ends up in losing points quickly. Playing defense gets the other guy play offense. What worked was hitting solid deep balls down the middle that didn't allow the other guy to generate offense while keeping me focused not just on consistency but consistent quality of shot.!! Big difference !! I won 4 of the next 5 games before time ran out. I think this might be a good starting point in future matches as well. Thanks both to you guys and Mark Vines.
Great stuff, got myself a tournament journal and put it in my bag. Thanks Brett for the elbow videos, it made the difference!!! pain free and back on the court monday.
Major Dan here - sorry, off topic - Playing a Ghost !!! Official matches on hold for the holidays. But played a friendly tonight. A year ago, I could have handled this guy. great guy. very steady, fast baseliner. weak serve. Last year, I would have rushed him, attacked his second serves, played inside the baseline and tried to take time away, not let him get into long steady rallies. Tonight, I was kind of nervous that he would simply out-steady me, out-move me, get lots of errors from me. Strange thing happened - he thought he was playing the 'me' from last year. Early on i hit a few good serves and in his first service game I attacked a second serve for a winner ! He must have been having flashbacks :) I won the first set 6-1 as he beat himself trying to play against the 'me' of last year :). I felt like I was almost not doing anything, just acted the part and he kept believing in ghosts !!! A most strange experience. The more he pressured himself, the more confident I felt too. What a strange game we play :)
The land of drop shots and drop volleys !!! Very interesting. But this is very specialized grass court tennis. I've played on grass twice in my life and it has led me to the conclusion that tennis was not invented on the lawns of England but in a warehouse in paramus NJ. The guys lined up some boxes/crates to act as the net, had a nice solid concrete floor and good lights and started our wonderful game ! Grass ? England ? nah.....
Morning Mark. Clay court tennis is the same. Lots of droppers and volleys when you stretch an opponent out wide. Oh ... and the same for hardcourts too ;-)
another great episode. Have a great workshop. I'm not to the 4.0 level yet, and also have had a minor tennis elbow issue. Any advice on that. I iced and rested for the past three weeks. And now I'm doing stretching with light strengthening exercises. Better and better each day. Not 100% pain free with certain movements. I'm sure I was overgripping on my serve practice. Anxious to get back to practice and compete. I'm going to give it two more weeks before i try some tennis.
Thanks Brent for talking about my comment. This is something I have to work on also, not being afraid or go into a match negatively because of a previous bad result. We should think that everyday is a new day.
Brent Abel recently disclosed that his mother went to Smith College before she became a popular math teacher in California. Mine went to Smith, too. And I know other tennis players whose moms went there, all wiseacres so there ought to be a club Current stroke models for me once posture, balance and separation are squared away, are on backhand Ken Rosewall, on forehand John McEnroe, the McEnroe slap-shot as Jim McClellan once described it after reading my rant. These changes are a function of turning 80. But the additions to the arsenal don't mean abandonment of my conventional looped forehand now being used half the time. Never have had so much fun in tennis, so thanks to you both and to Gold Ball Hunting and Happy New Year. ... [Message clipped] View entire message
I have been following GBH early on. The seniors in our club play mostly doubles. I did not get a chance to play for two weeks. When I went out to play, I promise myself that I would just hit the ball back cross court. It was amazing how well I played. I would say that I was able to control my hit 60 to 70% of the time. If felt good not to make lots of errors. Now if I can do this when I'm back in playing condition. I hear what you two are saying, but the hard part is for me to buy into the idea.
Hey OGP, thanks for supporting us from the beginning ! Great job implementing a simple idea, and that will continue to be the challenge until you start to see the reality of playing journeyman tennis. Being back in "playing condition" should only make the outcome more positive !!! Jeff
Many thanks to you and Jeff for making so much sense. I am busy trying to narrow my focus to only one part of my game to discuss with you cuties on a coaching call. If I have bought a course allowing me a 15-minute call, can I combine that to pick your brains for longer? Or is it an either-or proposition? Happy Holidays, gentlemen!
Thanks guys excellent analysis. As a left hander I appreciate that you used a video of Mark. My takeaway is instructional and motivational. Very freeing mentally to hear you say to concern yourself less with being overly analytical, and concentrate on a few simple concepts. Posture, balance and spacing. Heavy rain here in souther Ca. looking forward to getting back to practice.
Hey guys, great stuff - I can't believe how well Maurice, in particular, moves! A lot of the shot selection is top-draw too - forehand slices up the line, lobs over the backhand side, short backhand slice off the same look as the deep slice backhand (something I know you've mentioned before) - very impressive, thanks for sharing.
Brent and Jeff,I'd be interested in hearing you compare the games of Mark Vines and Larry Turville when he was dominating the 60's? Similarities and maybe more interesting what is different in the way they win? Thanks.
Hi Ricky. Pretty darn similar in terms of shot making efficiency. Larry has a deadly accurate slice backhand. The principles Jeff and I keep hammering on are what these guys do. Brent
Thanks for posting. Inspires me to increase my consistency. I feel that I can reach this level, even so late to the tennis game. Now I just need to know more about how to get myself into tournaments so I can get a true baseline to build my goals on. Gold Ball Hunting, baby!
Atta girl! When you're ready, schedule a comp private coaching call with me and Jeff and let's give you a plan to get to where you want to take your game. Brent calendly.com/goldballhunting/10min/
Thanks guys. Good repertoire of ideas today. Watching Vines, I have to ask a question about equipment. How many guys at that level are playing with OS racquets? I recognize the Gamma 117 in Vines hands. Can you report back to all of us? I continue to play mostly doubles with a 97 or 100 inch frame and am thinking about going to 107-110 but hate changing racquets again. My observation is that I'm fine with 97 from the baseline, but certainly would benefit at the net with a larger hitting face.
It's not really about the size of the sweet spot. The OS rackets make it easier to get a combo of spin / power by doing less with swing technique. Less swing technique = better consistency. Brent
This was awesome for me!! Wheeeeeee! I just started playing tennis last year after turning 58. So far, so great, I’ve taken to it like a semi-badass duck to water, and I’m fully obsessed. If I didn’t have to work for a living , it might reach addiction level. My natural game has lots of slice, forehand and backhand. My coach wants me to use more topspin. And I have wondered whether I should trying to fulfill the topspin ideal or perfect what I am already good at and drawn to. So the question of whether I have time to get this to the point where it tips the balance really resonates. While I won’t abandon topspin fore and aft, I am going to put more energy into my natural game. My hitting partner Luis calls it “slicing the butter”. I’m going to heat up my knife. Thanks, guys.
Hey Tanya! Yeah. Heat up that knife ;-) Don't let someone try to convince you that topspin all by itself is the answer. It ain't. Go with your natural skills for now. For sure there are times when some topspin is a good choice for a specific situation ... but as your staple spin? No way ... Brent
Loved watching this match. When I looked at stats showed neither Maurice or Mike never went middle on add side with 2nd serve I know Bret has said he goes into body a majority of time but I was surprise on grass they never went middle. That would be taking angles away be was also going to forehand. They did not seem shy about going to forehand with 2nd serve on the deuce side. Not sure what that means if anything. Randy
Mornin Randy. Looking forward to seeing you here in the desert next month. The no middle placement for their 2nd serves on grass with these two guys is probably b/c the server felt it might be too much of an opp for the returner to play a chip and charge and challenge from the net ... Brent
