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Best channel on RU-vid. I appreciate your calling balls and strikes here legally. It takes a lifetime to build a reputation, and a moment to lose one. I do get the ick when bro-ey hobby communities rally around one of their own when that person has clearly done something wrong. I'm not saying that Mr. Ray should be burned at the stake. But the rush to defend him makes the whole sport look like chintzy frisbee hour compared to other sports.
People seem to miss the fact that the money stopped belonging to the players the moment they hit the payment button. They had in fact exchanged it for good and services to be delivered at a date in the future. Also,, he owned and operated a business entity that was in the business of running tournaments and selling disc golf paraphernalia. That he used registration fees from one tournament to finance others and buying inventory to sell is just normal way to operate. Seriously, you don't expect your favourite airline to only use what you paid them to operate the airplane you are sitting in while you are sitting in it?
What you say is true. But, if Tyler had not stepped in, those goods and services would not have been provided. People have every right to be pissed off.
Finally, a good take on this topic. This financial practice is COMMON in the industry. For an Independent Contractor, registration fees are income. Income can be allocated however it needs to be in order to continue day to day operations, provided the buyers receive the products they paid for. I don't think JRay should get off freely, but I don't he's a criminal by any means. He's embarrassed, and upset, that he couldn't continue his day to day operations. All business owners would feel this way in the same position. He deserves grace, because he's going himself up more than anyone else will.
So, enter any tournament at your own risk. PDGA and Dominant brands bear no responsibility and you have no recourse if the TD is financially irresponsible, "comes on hard time", or is just a thief. Hey, let's all go to the carnival and play the ring toss for $150. Thankfully, Tyler stepped in to save the day.
The PDGA should also look into changing its rules on tournament funds and how / where they can be spent. The fact that a tournament director can effectively use all of the registration money on what ever they want seems to be a bad plan. I think its okay to take profit, but that should be after the tournament is complete and payouts have been made. at least this way the money for the tournament would legally be there and if a new TD is needed, it can be an easy switch. I agree that the PDGA is limited to what it can do currently if the tournament was actually cancelled, but that should change moving forward by adding new rules and regulations to protect players.
Life is hard sometimes and this guy doesn’t appear to be trying to steal money just didn’t have things go his way. Glad this other company stepped up in a big way. Props to them!
Great breakdown, from a legal perspective. However, I have a feeling we’re only getting part of the story. I personally think the medical issues were stress/worry/anxiety related, due to losing the majority of that money from sports betting. New truck, new camper and then the gamble on 2024 being like 2023, from gambling success & event success. I don’t have a dog in the fight, but I just wish those who trusted him at least got the full truth.
It's good to know that from a legal standpoint, nobody would be able to do anything about this. Now, if you excuse me, I've got to go set up some tournaments and book a flight to Cayman Island 😅
This dude just straight up stole from everyone and we're supposed to feel bad for him?! Nah what he did was scummy, he knew he was doing it the whole time it, wasn't some sudden mistake. He should be charged with stealing 27k just like he did, then once he pays it back then we can talk about forgiveness. He needs some form of punishment besides just not being able to run events
I think the biggest issue in the argument of misappropriation of funds has to do with using tournament fees for personal use rather than business. Certainly in business you make investments in one area to fund another quite often, but you don't mix business and personal expenses. That's where you get into trouble.
I disagree with you about the PDGA. The PDGA owns DiscGolfScene. If Bud Hill had not gone on as scheduled and enough players disputed their charge with their credit card company this would have become an issue for the PDGA. PayPal would have flagged DiscGolfScene and potentially suspended their agreement with DiscGolfScene. DiscGolfScene has a responsibility to underwrite the tournament directors who put events on their site. They do not do this currently.
150? Like ok. Why do they pay it a year in advance? Or at the beginning of season? This tourney is so much different than any I've ever seen. Like yes I'm just a bum ass am in kansas but I've never seen more than like 80 dollars? And it's almost always more like 45-65. I've always just paid for the tourney like a week or two out, not the whole season. Is the 150 and paying a season in advance common? IS this tourney really THAT great?
I’m in Northern California and most tournaments around here sell-out within a few days to a couple weeks after going live on discgolfscene. It’s all about demand.
I seriously doubt you’d be singing this tune if someone had stolen 27,000$ from you. If I’m wrong, I’m homeless and could use 27$ from all disc golf enthusiasts for good clothes and shelter. I’m not a thief, I don’t use drugs or alcohol and I’m a spiritual renunciate.I must say it sounds like that man’s medical condition could be medical marijuana. And, it sounds like you are condoning his act of thievery?
Might want to read up on mismanagement vs conscious theft. If your bank investment scheme goes belly up.. do you have the bankers arrested for theft.. or investigated for mismanagement... it seems a LOT of people here are confusing the intention of outright steeling with business as usual as per the previous 10 years but this year things went wrong... (And the medical issues didn't help matters but be wary, this does not mean the money was spent on them... but how much money do YOU make in the weeks you are sick.
@TheButlerNZ justifying theft of someone's money, whether it be $1 or $1000 based on intent is a bad take. So, hey, give me $150 and you can come swim in my pool. Oh wait, the pool doesn't have any water in it. Oh well, thanks for the dough.
@@JAFO2024 More info needed... If he used the money for his own purpose, it's theft. If he used it for other events. It's mismanagement. From initial info it sounded a lot more like mismanagement... but some are now saying he used it for his own companies etc (I am not stating facts, just rehashing others hearsay). A lot of people assumed he used it for his health issues but in his initial statement he stated that he didn't (but of course health issues didn't help bring in the replacement funds). Basically what I'm saying is... If your not a lawyer involved in the case, anything we say is just rumour and should mind our own business, not just blurt out that someone is guilty without the actual facts.
Thanks for offering an honest take on this drama. I always appreciate hearing your balanced, and fair approach to reporting on the goings on and educating without bias or judgement. You the real G. I can't stand being on any of the social media disc golfers are on, it's ridiculous and pushed me off too many times. Left all the groups and just like to see your vids once in a while for an honest what actually is happening truth. Thanks frisbee lawyer! 🎉
Always steal tournament fees. There's no point not to do it. Just get a buddy or two to send enough mini discs and towels for a players pack. And be really sorry about it.
The problem here is setting a precedence and a past practice. What happens down the road when someone gets away with mismanaging $80k of players money? Or $100k? I personally think an example needs to be made of Jonathan Ray in order to preserve integrity. When we get on Disc Golf Scene and send in our money for tournament entry fee, we need to know that we can trust the TD who is receiving that money. A lot of the time we have no idea who the TD is, we just want to play the tournament without worrying about our money. If Jonathan Ray walks away from this free and clear, who’s to say someone sees it happen and intentionally does what he did to scam people out of money. Then stands back and uses the Jonathan Ray excuses because it worked for him???
I agree with DG.L's judgment. This guy has operated for 10 years without a hitch. Now he is going through, apparently, a rough patch. Show some mercy and compassion and do not always assume the worst of the worst. Hopefully there will be little harm done eventually.
Out of curiosity, if the event hadn't been bailed out by Soar, would his conduct amount to 180 misdemeanors, or 180 civil cases of breach of contract (or something of the sort)? Sadly, I've seen this sort of financial mismanagement in other arenas. Businesses fail and leave their final customers hanging. Contractors are notorious for taking money for a new job to finish to previous job. People robbing Peter to pay Paul, who think they can turn the corner and get ahead -- until the moment they can't.
I look at the story overall. He did some great things for disc golf it seems for years. This year however he somehow got into financial trouble and somehow $27k was missing 9 months in. Now he should have realized really early on he was bleeding money. If he had bills that weren't expected that should have been known to him ahead of time as well before he paid them. Isn't hard to look at your bank account and see number go down and realize you are in trouble. What fuels these thoughts is him admitting to doing it for years saying he would use the funds to fund other tournaments and he'd make it back and be fine. So he knows where he normally is sitting at as far as funds. It should have been clear way earlier that he had issues. At the very least the PDGA needs to permanently ban him from running PDGA events. He should also be suspended for at least a year from even playing in any events. He has shown he isn't financially reliable enough to run an event and there has to be some other punishment for him losing $27,000 in tournament funds. The ban on running events itself would not be the punishment it would be the result of him showing he isn't financially responsible if that makes sense.
😂 I would love to sign up for another tournament that he runs. It is either that or I have to get out the gas and a lighter and burn that extra $150. 😅😅
How awesome is Tyler Searle and Soar Disc Golf for stepping up and running this tournament? Tyler is one of the best ambassadors of disc golf that I know!
Agreed, he's getting so much cred for stepping up on this (and it's earned of course). If we reward Tyler by buying discs from him, then I think the world is right. :)
I don't understand why Paige didnt have a better international travel & health insurance policy. Dont leave (your) home (country) without one. Then there is the role that the backward USA health care system played here. Canada & most western European countries have socialized medicine financed by income taxes, had this injury happened to me in my country Canada the system wouldve paid almost all the costs. And had I been traveling in Norway I would've had an insurance policy costing max $25/day that wouldve covered up to at least $100K in medical costs, provided I wasnt doing something illegal like drunk driving ...
As a long time disc golfer, club president, and TD to numerous tournaments (sanctioned and not), I think the biggest problem for TDs in general is that disc golf is too cheap. Running a (decent) tournament takes a lot of time and effort and is rarely financially worth it. Selling discs also takes a lot of time and energy and is rarely financially worth it. I'm sure JRay was doing something he loved and was probably just barely making ends meet for years. If you're just barely living and then something like a medical bill or a car break down happens, suddenly those ends are no longer meeting. From there, it's a downward spiral that is extremely hard to get out of. Hopefully the damage from all of this is minimal for everyone involved and JRay can pick himself up, learn from mistakes, and move on with his life.
It seems to me he could have reached out to someone to take over for him, and avoided this issue outright, and work with them to pay them back. Soar Disc Golf is apparently doing this now as a result of the backlash, but prevention is better than treatment.
Well, that just opened the door for a lot of con artists to become td’s and scam players out of money by never delivering the product. If there are no consequences then it will be done again and again.
If that happened, the Con Artist/TD could be prosecuted for things like fraud and misuse of funds. And the players could sue, though hiring a lawyer to try and recoup $150 would be inefficient. The PDGA probably needs to add a few more rules and restrictions on the money side of things, at least for A tier tournaments.
You are implying the funds went exclusively to fund other tournaments, however from Jonathan's initial post, we are led to believe they also went to his personal expenses and were not inherently separated entities. This is where many take issue and you seem biased by not acknowledging this fact.
He never once said he spent the money on those medical issues or any other personal things. He explicitly said he spent the money on other events earlier in the season. He goes on to say “because of personal medical issues, higher costs and much lower participation in our sport I just couldn’t catch up.” Not being able to run events to catch up because of medical issues isn’t the same as spending business funds on those medical issues.
Chris answered this question when he was on the Ultiworld Disc Golf show a week or so ago. What he said was basically that it did not matter what Jonathan did with the money in between collecting the registration fees and running the tournament, as long as the tournament happened and all the registrants got what they were promised (players packs, payout, etc).
@@devlin76 You seem to be confusing ethics with legal liability. Just because someone may avoid criminal or civil liability, doesn't mean it was ethical.
@@devlin76this needs to be fixed. Maybe by 1099 the TDs as employees of the PDGA and the fees are paid to the PDGA directly that way finances can’t be misappropriated
Could you look into and compare what went down with Jordan Castro? Word was that he also “stole” tournament entry fee money. I could be wrong of course, I just heard that. I know he was suspended as such.
Chris, I appreciate how you approach these situations with conviction, and compassion. You are a respected leader in this sport, and I would also bet among your legal peers.
I agree with grace and mercy, I think people can make mistakes and while they should be held accountable for their actions, we as people can still treat them with a certain kindness. That being said, if I understood what you are saying correctly, the only reason why he is not getting charges filed against him is someone bailed him out. Correct? At that point, there would have been victims so there would have been a crime, or am I missing something?
Yes, if he did not get bailed out this would have been considered theft. It would be up to the local DA to decide if they want to bring criminal charges.
I have no idea what the timeline for the PDGA Disciplinary Committee will be or if there will be any transparency, but I am definitely expecting a long ban/suspension from running events.
Sounds more like her problem then the PDGA I think it’s a choice to be there playing disc most of us don’t even play for cash so at a pros level it should be the responsibility of the team they play for not the PDGA the fault lies with prodigy latitude discraft innova , I mean technically they work for those companies not the PDGA
Weak correlation between disc golf and record companies. Also Lone Star requires a social media dedication presence of its players. While being a 4.3% infinitediscs total sales. Wont equate in the end
Good points for discussion, but there are certainly couple things I , let's say, see differently. 1. As someone already said, the artists are selling their albums and their brands, not that of the publisher. This also makes tracking their success rather straight forward. In disc golf, the players are primarily there to promote the disc golf brand while the signature / tour series discs are just an extra way to provide them additional income. Look at what McBeth or Simon did to their brand, long before their own signature lineups were as extensive as they are today. 2. I really feel like disc golf manufacturers are well aware of the difference between winning and selling discs. Look at the contracts that Simon, Eagle, Brody, Kona and Oakley, not to mention the content creators got. Also, while Paul and Kristin win they also sell their brands really well. I think Ricky and maybe some of the Prodigy guys are the ones who were paid more based on their success, but those are more of an exception than a norm. Personally I feel like the positive visibility is the key for DG sponsors, not so much direct disc sales of certain molds. Being active on social media, getting on lead cards and being open to media are better metrics. In general, having standard terms like duration, termination, exclusivity, etc. is good, but what comes to the more detailed payment terms, it should be negotiable as each player brings different benefits and requirements to the table. You can't apply Isaac Robinson's terms to Silas Schulz or Bodanza and vice versa.
