I think that you are correct in that not many planers could do this job, but that is mainly because there are not many of them around anymore. However a planer is an inherently accurate machine and so I bet that most working planers could so this job satisfactorily. Regarding bed wear, most lathes with soft beds never get to this stage of wear. If kept clean and oiled they will last a long time. The problem usually begins with the saddle. Once their ways loose their end's sharp edges, grit gets funneled in between the two surfaces. This quickly progresses to making the saddle ways banana shaped and a more pronounced grit funnel. The saddle no longer has adequate bearing on the bed. The grit embeds in the saddle and it becomes a lap that eats away at the bed. So it is important that at the first sign that this is occurring, fix the saddle. Keeping the ways clean and oiled will go a long way towards preventing the condition from occurring in the first place. -Rees

@@reesacheson5577 Excellent advice.

As you suggest, the bed could be milled. In fact, there are not many planers left and so it is unlikely that many lathes would now be cut in the fashion shown in this video. However, since you ask the question, if a planer is available, I think it is a much better option than milling for several reasons: - A planer with a flat-tool as used in the video is likely quite a bit faster than milling, requiring about 90 seconds to complete a side of a Vee removing 0.025". Milling would take a while to complete a single pass, and two passes would be the minimum to insure that the final cut was made at a uniform depth of cut. - A planer is more likely to cut a straight surface than milling. However, this of course depends on the condition of the mill and planer, and the size of the mill. The surfaces cut the video are likely within 0.0005" of straight in 4 ft. A mill would likely need to be quite large (a bed type, rather than saddle) and in good shape to achieve that. - A planer produces a smoother surface than a mill and one that is easier to scrape. In fact, the planed surfaces look like they could be used as is. The scraping produces a slippery surface that makes for a long life. A milled surface would likely need a minimum of 4 scraper passes while a planed surface would need at least two. Note that my opinion is biased by the fact that I have been using planers for 50 years and would always choose a planer over a mill for long work. Therefore I have had little long-mill experience. My opinion is also based in the fact that I have a planer to use, while most people do not and would therefore not consider advising to use one. While on the subject, grinding is another option - and more commonly used than either a mill or a planer. If the grinder is in good shape and large enough, it too can produce a surface as straight as a planer. And in cases of machining hardened ways, it is the only option. But I am not a fan of grinding long ways. During grinding, half of the heat goes into the work piece, while with a planer it is less than 10%. Further, a grinder produces about 10 times as much heat for cutting the same amount of metal as a planer. That's 50 times as much heat in the work piece to deal with. It is very important to keep this heat from distorting the work, otherwise when the work temperature stabilizes it will not be straight. It requires a good operator and lots of coolant to keep this heat under control. -Rees

@@reesacheson5577 tyvm.

I am glad to hear that you have a planer. There are not many around and they are a great tool. What size is it? You are correct in that it is difficult to find information on how to use a planer - even when they were commonly used there was not much written about them. I wrote a paper on Planer Work for my son when I gave him the shop. A more recent copy can be found at : www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/planer-work-paper.424401

Thank you Rees! Mine is a small machine, it will do 24” wide, by 72” long. I’m currently building a portable milling machine, and excited to use this planer to make some parts. Isaac

The first planer I ever used was a Rockford open-sided of that size, though I thought the table was 20" wide (but that was 51 years ago). It was tiny compared to the other three planers, but a pleasure to use. When I was looking for mine it was difficult to find one small enough for my shop. Perhaps you were lucky to find a small one - probably lucky to find one at all. Congratulations. Where are you located? And would you be willing to take on planer jobs? -Rees

The ways are not hardened, and will not be afterwards. Hardened ways cannot be planed like this, nor scraped. They must be ground. -Rees

@@reesacheson5577 thank you for responding! Good to know. Does the hardening not warp the ways?

@@roderos Good question. I have no experience with hardended ways. But I do not see how it is possible to flame or induction harden a long lathe bed without affecting straightness. Perhaps they are very lightly ground afterwards, but the setup for such a light cut must be painstaking. Or perhaps they estimate the bow and preload the bed when grinding so that it will come out straight after hardening. If anyone knows, please chime in. I find it baffling. --Rees

I can. The cost is $50/hr and a bed takes about 4 to 5 hours. You do realize that the ways will need to be scraped afterwards, and that that would be your job. Finally, the shop is in Alstead, NH, 03602. That my be quite a hike for you. Reach me by the email in ABOUT if you would like to converse more on the subject. --Rees

Presumably you mean unhardened, vs. hardened cast iron. If so, besides grinding, what other option is there for truing a hardened cast iron bed? Grinding sounds like a good choice.

If all you had were a milling machine, it could be used, but for several reasons it is probably the last resort if a grinder and planer were the other to options. 1) The surface finish of planing using the method shown ought to be far superior to milling. There are no successive tooth cuts, it is all one broad cut the entire length. This alone will probably save a couple of hours in scraping time. 2) Although not a great consideration, planing is quicker. Cutting time is probably twice as fast as milling. But cut time is only about a quarter of the job time. Though it may take longer to setup the job on a milling machine, too. 3) If the milling machine is a saddle type, then it is likely that the planer would cut straighter. And straightness really is an enormous time saver when it comes to scraping. If the mill were a bed type, where the table was supported like a planer table for its length, then the straightness could be expected to be as good as a planer. However, having said this, there are not many planers left and it would be difficult to find one in good enough shape to do the job. Way grinders have taken their place and are the usual method to straighten a worn lathe bed. Further, since about 1970, many lathes have hardened beds and these must be ground, not planed. But way grinders have problems of their own, particularly with controlling the enormous heat they produce - about 50% of which enters the workpeice and needs to be so immediately removed. If operated well they can do a superb job, but if not, the bed may not be straight at all. Personally, if I had both a way grinder and a planer, I would choose the planer unless the ways were hardened. And unless the milling machine were a bed type, I would weary of using it at all. -Rees

@@reesacheson5577 I watched lot of videos on Abom79 channel about shaper. I know the finishing is superior to milling, but I thought maybe easier to get the cuts then do grinding, just like in the factory refurbishment. Ok. Thx!

@@BMRStudio Ah, I see. Since proper setup is so time consuming, I would not want to do it twice. However, doing so would mean that only a very little would need to be ground off, thus limiting the heating problem. -Rees

From the description I read that I the cutting of each side of a vee was 0.026" measured horizontally. I assume that is correct. That's 0.018" when measured perpendicular to the cut surface (0.026 x sin45). Cutting both sides lowered the saddle 0.026". -Rees

@@reesacheson5577 Thank you for your response. I'm assuming that the saddle also had some wear to it? If so, how was that addressed? Thanks!

@@ledomengineering In this particular case, the owner addressed the saddle concerns. As I recall he used a filler material, like Tursite - an epoxy-like material, to lift the saddle. He used a milling machine, either (or both) before or after the Tursite. Sometimes I am called upon to plane the saddle as well. This also fixes the geometry of the saddle. Whether planed or not, the saddle is scraped to fit the bed. The bed will be a straight surface and so can used as a straight edge to make the saddle ways straight. If not planed, it is during this scraping that its geometry is also fixed. In all cases except possibly when using the Turcite, the misalignment to the leadscrew needs correction. This can often be accomplished by shimming the gearbox and end-support block down. -Rees

That is one way of looking at it. And it is a valid one. There is another point of view, though. Hardened ways become so expensive to recondition that the machine will likely be scrapped rather than fix it. If buying the lathe new, then this may work out for the best. But if buying a used lathe, if the ways are worn, purchase may not be a wise choice. I was never able to afford sending machine parts out for reconditioning and so I have always avoided hardened or chromed ways because of this. And hardened ways are not immune to wear. Typically it is the saddle that first becomes a problem as the leading edges loose their sharpness. This traps dirt which gets sucked in between the ways. The wear propagates with the saddle becoming convex - then acting as a funnel to insure that larger grit will enter. With this the saddle becomes a lap - embedding sharp particles in the cast iron. If some of those particles are harder than 62RC then they will abrade the hard ways. So to prevent wear it is important to insure that the saddle edges remain sharp. This is true for both unhardened and hardened ways. To your point, it is also true that the hardened ones will last longer. But if the edges are kept sharp even the soft lathe beds ought to last. This, of course, assumes that for both types the ways are kept clean and lubricated, and wiped down and oiled before use if allowed to stand idle for long periods of time. The standing idle allows the grit to set into and be held by the drying matrix of lubricant. As the saddle traverses this, the leading edge of the saddle quickly disintegrates. I have three lathes left in my shop. I reconditioned the ways of each about 45 years ago. One had hardened ways and I ground them on the planer. The other two have soft ways and the beds now still show no obvious wear. Neither does the hard one. -Rees

No, the bed is not hardened. What is happening is that as the cutting brings the surface near to the desired size, the feed rate is decreased so as to reduce the spring, both in the tool holder and the lathe bed itself. Then the final stroke is made without advancing the tool at all. making what is called a "spring cut". That last cut is then very close to a condition in which all parts of the system, lathe bed and planer, are relaxed, thus producing a surface that closely matched that of the planer's stroke. The object is to eliminate any flexing that is due to tool pressure. That powder you saw was likely the final cut, and so the depth of cut was not enough to make chips. Rees

Planye küçük olan ve onda parça sabit kafa hareketli ve çok seri çalışır. Buradaki VARGEL dir ve büyük ve tonajı iş parçaların işlemek işin kullanılır iş parçası hareketli kafa sabit çalışma prensibine sahiptir.

If you are asking if I could plane your lathe, the first question is probably where would you be coming from? I live in Alstead, NH, USA. If that is within a reasonable driving distance then the next question would be what size is the bed. You say "18 between centers". If that is 18 ft then no, it is too big. My planer accommodates 8ft long by 2ft wide. If either of these mean that you will be looking for another planer, there are several threads on the PracticalMachinist forum where people are trying to find planers. You might try there. There are not many working planers left. I looked up the Model A and it looks like the ways are not hardened, which is a prerequisite to being planable. -Rees

Google translate: "Back in 1975, a colleague worked at a planing machine. He had two of them, one like this and a small one. Both are Lend Lease "Cincinnati". Subsequently, in 84-85, I myself had the opportunity to work in small jobs. Not highly qualified work, planed blanks for dies, dies, pullers, punches." I like hearing of stories like yours. By "Lend Lease" I assume that you mean the program just before World War II where the US gave equipment to England (and perhaps Russia?). -Rees

Да, СССР.

Во время 2й Мировой.

Every once in a while I get a comment like yours that is, at least to me, non-nonsensical and I choose to ignore it. But this time I am curious and ask for clarification. Since what you state is directly in the title and difficult to miss, there must be more behind your statement. -Rees

@@reesacheson5577 it was a bad word play joke The lathe bed is bend south (down)

@@ipadize Sorry, I've always been a pretty literal guy, and I often miss jokes. This time completely. That doesn't mean it was a bad joke, though. -Rees

@@reesacheson5577 no problem, have a nice day

I'm not sure whether you would like an answer or are just remarking. After a week I just decided to answer. I assuming that you are referring to the last frames where the planer is cutting down vertically the backside of the lathe. This is done so that it is possible to later find out how the bed was setup and whether it was, or still is, straight. One significant aspect of the cut, and perhaps prompting your mention of a twist, is that the cut is being performed in a conventional manner: a series of small cuts are taken down the side to define the plane. This is in contrast to the unconventional way in which the rest of the video shows cutting the ways. Although I have been cutting lathe beds this way for 45 years, until a week ago I had never seen or heard of anyone cutting a bed like this. So, to me, the unconventional method shown in most of the video is interesting. -Rees

@reesacheson5577 Ha! Yes, mainly an observation that while repetitive, the footage is mesmerizing and lovely. I'm like, wow, I've been watching this for a long time. And after awhile you don't suppose it will be any different and then woah, a different cut! Appreciate the explanation and love the ingenuity. I picked up a 1910s era lathe a few years ago for a couple hundred dollars. Done a few odd jobs with it, nothing precision enough for me to even consider whether the ways are worn, but I'm sure they are. And yeah, just double-checked, not hardened. If I used it more than once in a blue moon I might consider investing more into it. Alas, not in the cards right now. 45 years of this and I assume similar craftsmanship. Very inspiring.

I assume that you are referring to a thermal metal spray. It is a reasonable question and there are several reasons why I think that using thermal metal spray would impractical: 1) The local heating of the bed ways would warp it enough that straightening would be necessary. Besides being difficult (I am not sure how one would even go about it) the bed would contain locked-in stresses due to the uneven heating, such that as material was removed during the cutting, the bed would continually move as the stresses were being removed by the cutting. This would make it impossible to machine a straight bed without performing a stress relieving operation first. 2) Stress relieving the bed after metal spray would warp the bed as the locked in stresses were released. Remember, the stresses being applied during the spray process are being resisted by the bed and so as they are both heated, they both deform to relieve, meaning the bed will not be the same shape as before. Also, during the stress relief the bed would need to be very carefully supported because at such temperatures its own weight becomes one of the stresses that are being relieved, and the support itself would likely change during the heating. The bed would likely be unusable afterwards. 3) The metal spray being applied would be of a different machineability than the cast iron of the bed and therefore, in order to get a straight surface upon planing, the spray would need to be uninterrupted. That is, the cast iron could never show through. 4) Such would also need to be the case because it is likely that the surface cast iron would have been heated over the 1350F critical temperature, over which a very slow cooling would be necessary to prevent the iron from turning into very hard and unmachinable martensite. Now, the surface could be ground instead of planing. This would get around the hardness and uneven machinability problem, however the distortion problem would remain. In addition there would likely be a feathering of the spray material at the transition areas and these areas would likely have unreliable adhesion (and wear) qualities.

@@reesacheson5577 thank you so much for your answer I had no idea this was such a complex topic.i learned so much.thsnk you again sir.

The bed must be "scraped" after planing to provide the smooth slippery surface required for such sliding parts. -Rees

8 feet by 2 feet.

Usually I am just amused by a comment such as yours, but this time I have decided to respond with an explanation of why anyone should care about a planer, and how what is being shown is unique. So, I am responding not so much as a rebuke to your comment, but as information to others as to why I think that this is important and not just an effort to attract viewers. After all, spreading planer-use information has been the entire purpose of this channel. Now for the explanation: The uniqueness is in how the cut is being made: The entire width of the surface is being cut during each stroke. This makes the process very quick and the surface finish extraordinary. The normal planer method would be to take successive small-width cuts along the surface until the edge is reached, and then repeat this until the surface cleans up. This leaves a disturbance at each successive leading edge and is quite time consuming. I am uncomfortable when blowing my own horn, but I believe this technique to be mine in that I have never seen or heard of anyone else using the technique. I first used it in 1979 planing a lathe bed and have been doing it ever since, and I think it works exceedingly well. I have been eager to share it and make it available to others. (Note: This is the first time I have mentioned myself as the inventor of the lathe cutting technique, and so if anyone knows differently I would love to hear about it. I could thus try to limit making a fool of myself by claiming the title.) Further, cutting such a wide surface and avoiding chatter is not trivial. The key lies in the Flat-Tool, which is why I posted an entire video on how to construct such a tool and why it works. My guess is that you would not find it interesting, either. In my experience there are few people - even experienced planer operators - who do understand how and why the flat-tool works. And there are almost no planer operators left. But that's not all. Planers are the machine tool that made all our machines up until the 1960's and the last planer was made in the United States around 1950. The machine has been abandoned to planer-mills and grinders. My guess is that there are now only one or two dozen planers in reasonable working order in the U.S. But I think that a planer holds huge advantages over mills and grinders in a few areas: planing lathe beds and milling table ways among them. My intention with this channel has been to revive planers so that they are again thought of as a useful machine tool. Without that realization, the rest of them - the ones not in reasonable shape that are left- will be scrapped and I think that would be a shame. Just yesterday I was pleased to see that there is a fellow in Sweden who has posted a video using the technique. If they learned it here, then this channel has been a success. If not, then I would love to hear where he learned of it and any history of the technique that he may know. In either case, I am glad. - Rees

racheson251@comcast.net

I, too, am surprised. I encourage you to get the planer running. In fact, that is part of the reason I have been posting these videos - to show how useful that can be and try to keep the practice alive. Once you get it running please send me an email as I have been trying to compile a list of working planers. Even better, Richard Kind (practicalmachinist.org) has been maintaining a much more complete list than mine. Rees

@@reesacheson5577 I will try to get back to you if I get my planer running. I did print out your treatise on planer work so I have that to remind me. I have also been in contact with R Audano from KS who is also a planer owner/user, and who connected me with the planer I now own. My original thought was to use my planer mostly as a plano mill, but I am thinking now I would like to maintain the ability to use it as a traditional planer. Are you by chance referring to Richard King of PM?

No cooling at all. However, it is a reasonable question. I'll try to figure out for you the resulting rise in temperature of the way portion of the bed. This assumes that at least 90% of the heat created leaves with the chips, with only 10% entering the bed. I think that this is a low estimate, but I'm going to use it in order to err on more heat to the bed. Please let me know if you spot any errors. Given a total removed on each side of each way as 0.019 deep (.027" measured horizontally) by 0.6" wide and 48" long with a travel speed of 60fpm (720ipm): The feed is 0.004 horizontal, so the depth of cut is the sine of 45 to that: 0.004 * 0.707 = 0.0028 depth Using width of cut 0.6, depth of 0.0028 and 720 in/min travel rate: 720 * 0.0028 * 0.6 = 1.2 cu/in/min removal rate 1.2 / 60 = 0.02 cu/in/sec removal rate Using a HP constant of 0.6 per cu/in/min 1.2 * 0.6 = 0.7 HP required by the cut 550 * 0.7 = 385 ft/lbs/sec (will be used to obtain BTU) Find energy consumed: 0.027 * 0.707 = 0.019 converted to depth 0.019d * 0.6w * 48 long = 0.55 /cu/in removed per side 0.55 / 0.02 = 27.5 sec for the cutting (amount div by rate) 385 * 27.5 = 10,587 ft/lbs (ft/lbs/sec * sec = ft/lbs) At 778 ft/lbs per BTU: 10,587 / 778 = 13.6 BTU consumed About 90% of the heat leaves with the chip, so 10% * 13.6 = 1.36 BTU per side Specific Heat of cast iron = 0.130 BTU per lbs per degF Approx Bed way section of just the way platform of one side at the top of the bed: 0.75 X 2 = 1.5 sq" per side 1.5 x 48" = 72 cu/in * 0.29 = 20.88 lbs. each side of the bed 1.36btu / 0.130 / 20.8 = 0.5F rise 0.5F * 4 = 2F for both sides of the two ways on one side of the bed. (Same for opposite side) Of course the above contains a lot of guesses. The real test is how straight is the bed after being removed from the planer and allowed to temperature stabilize. When not waiting for final cut, I can expect less than 0.001" deviation from straightness, usually half that. This is measured with a straight edge and guessing by its ink pattern, its feel, and how much scraping until a match is obtained. And it is not possible to differentiate between deviation caused by heat difference or by machine error. Rees

@@reesacheson5577 OK. I can see you are well on top of that. I guessed the temperature rise would not be great because of the area covered by the cut, and the fact that it was only repeated perhaps every ten seconds. I just worry about temperature when precision matters - I've been caught out more than once (to my shame).

@@donepearce After working out my reply and posting it, I worked on it some more to simplify. The rate cancels and I think it works out to a simple BTU per cubic inch based on the k constant found in Machinery's Handbook, which is the horse power required to remove 1 cubic inch per minute. For cast iron it varies between about 0.38 and 0.6. Steel is about 0.6 to 1.0. I have used 0.6 in the following example. Depth = 0.0028; width = 0.6; k = 0.6 rate = 720 * 0.0028 * 0.6 = 1.2 cu/in/min removal rate ((rate * (k * 33,000) / 788) / rate = BTU/cu/in The rate of 1.2 cancels and this reduces to: (k * 33000) / 778 = 25.65 BTU/cu/in For k = 0.38 its 16 BTU per cu/in Recall that, if for a planer, better than 90% of that heat ends up in the chip. To find joules instead, since 1 HP for 1 minute = 44,760 joules k * 44,760 = joules per 1 cu/in -Rees

@reesacheson5577 your calculation makes sense although I had to convert it to SI units. Considering the huge mass attached to the ways I think the temperature rise will be pretty tiny.

Google Translate: "What kind of cutter? Would you like to share?" The cutter is made from tungsten carbide, with 7 degree rake and 6 degree clearance. See the video "The Flat-tool" for more information. Rees

Perhaps. But I think more likely is that it was dropped at some point. Or even more likely, that the mating of the bed to the base was not planer, or there was lots of foreign material on the left side of the left mount, and so over time the headstock end began to permanently conform to the base. But who knows, it could have been in a fire. It's as good a guess as mine. Rees

If you are indeed looking to get the bed planed send me an email. If you live close enough perhaps my son could do it. If too far, I am trying to find other planers willing to do this work and perhaps there is one close enough. Rees

Even though the voice is mine, I can't understand it either. And, like you, I wish it were not there - mostly because I do not like to hear my own voice.. However, I am not sure how I could made it less irritating. Blanking out the sound for 15 seconds would likely have been even more irritating to viewers. Not talking in the first place would have been the best solution, but keep in mind that the object here was not to make a nice video, but to get the job done. The video was completely ancillary. I just turned on the camera. Rees