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Steven B. Tuner
Steven B. Tuner
Steven B. Tuner
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Dedicated to the improvement and modification of your BMW car.
No mess way to add oil to your BMW car engine
1:54
9 месяцев назад
Комментарии
@ianmurray3820
@ianmurray3820 26 минут назад
Great video , I wonder if that ash was actually soaked in oily soot hence the large quantity of ash that broke loose with the drain cleaner flush..!? All very interesting, but on the face of it I think diesels have been killed by emissions regulations.!! Putting exhaust gas back into the intake can’t be good mechanically..!!!!
@shadi3086
@shadi3086 13 часов назад
Hi, thank you very much for the video. Last month I bought 2014 Touareg TDi with 240,000 kms and the mechanics changed the oil cooler (it was leaking) that sits in top of the intake, water pump, and fuel filter. After driving it for couple of days (after the repair), I started getting the DPF light flashing, boost sensor and exhaust temperature. The DPF light went away and I get the Glow plugs flashing. After google it, I found out that my Car went on limp mode. The dealer told me that the car will try to clean the soot through DPF regeneration but if there is a code it will not do it. I was thinking of do it myself, remove the DPF and dip it in pool acid? Any recommendations?
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 4 часа назад
Hi, you are certainly at the kms where ash clogging is a possibility, so following my other video will help you out: The No Damage DIY DPF Clean. However it is important to fix any issues that are stopping the regeneration too, otherwise you will get constant soot clogging.
@AdamDitheridge
@AdamDitheridge День назад
Thanks for tha amazing tip, regarding hydroponics suppliers ;)
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner День назад
Glad it helped you out!
@bryans_m3b355
@bryans_m3b355 3 дня назад
The footwell module can be an issue an prevent the car from driving
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 3 дня назад
There are no shortage of things that can go wrong...
@kingfunni
@kingfunni 3 дня назад
Fantastisk video
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 3 дня назад
Glad it helped you out!
@logigustafsson
@logigustafsson 4 дня назад
Thanks for a thorough, nice scientific video! Quick question: Wouldn't dumping 5 litres of brake cleaner into the filter handle the oily soot issue just as well yet faster? Im bound to do a cleaning on the missus' car DPF next weekend, and a 5 litre of brake cleaner will only set me back £20 and some change. One less acidic mix to handle was my thought. Now, we can also buy 32% acetic acid in the grocery store here in Norway, wouldn't that be an option as well? Since you had a slow but positive effects of vinegar/acetic acid.. Pre mixed, no exothermic reaction to worry about and just ready to pour. I can buy 4 litre cans of the stuff here.
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 4 дня назад
Hi, brake cleaner has no effect on soot or ash, but strong acetic acid or products specifically designed for descaling industrial coffee machines should work well. I haven't tested them, so I will be interested to hear how your experiment goes!
@victorbelleisoares2135
@victorbelleisoares2135 5 дней назад
PERFECT!
@sergei149
@sergei149 5 дней назад
Watched this video a year or two ago and rewatched it again now to prepare myself for all that when I decide to go for a vehicle equipped with DPF. Wanted to add an extra step with blowing the solution in reverse with Tire Bead Cannon. it makes sense to soften the deposits and try to blow it out. Obviously starting with lower air pressure charge. Maybe even try to blow the soot when its dry
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 5 дней назад
The soot and ash is harmless when it is in some water, but it is all pretty nasty when it is in the air. That is my only concern with using air pressure
@stevehunt3847
@stevehunt3847 6 дней назад
Hi Stephen I have a grind or squel when excellerating in my BMW 325i n52 2006 it is only for 1 second ..then it goes could it be the vanos valves I replaced them 30k ago I have heard that it could be the oil filter that has collapsed ..it sounds like a low pitch grind squel but only on excellration ...thanks
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 5 дней назад
Hi, that can also be the free-wheeling alternator pulley that is getting a bit old and is complaining when it goes from free-wheeling to lock-up when you go from cruising/decelerating to accelerating. A 2006 car might have one fitted.
@stevehunt3847
@stevehunt3847 5 дней назад
@@StevenBTuner thanks Stephen some great advice there il have it looked into
@FuckTheGlobal
@FuckTheGlobal 6 дней назад
I am about to replace the turbo on my 2007 BMW X3 M47 150ps. It is leaking oil internally. Do I need to replace the exhaust manifold as well?
@cj8172
@cj8172 6 дней назад
How about cutting the dpf off and throwing it in the rubbish bin...?
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 5 дней назад
Haha, you've taken a wrong turn and ended up on a channel where we fix stuff rather than just throw away the things we don't like ;-)
@الاسوارللصناعاتالهندسية
الترجمه جميله نشكرك اخي الكريم
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 7 дней назад
Welcome!
@4ZDGem
@4ZDGem 8 дней назад
Why are the piezo injectors different and unable to be cleaned with the process in this video?
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 8 дней назад
Hi, they could be cleaned in a similar way - but they are not going to look the same, so if you want to see what part are inside then a different video would be more helpful.
@jedi-mic
@jedi-mic 8 дней назад
I would check the solenoid on the valve is working and sealing, by using a 9 volt battery you can just use carb cleaner sprayed into the injector well probably be enough to clean it anyway without dismantling
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 8 дней назад
Hi, a good tip!
@AshMills1973
@AshMills1973 8 дней назад
Please, please don't look at a camera to your side when driving!!!
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 8 дней назад
Safety first!
@jack504
@jack504 9 дней назад
Do you know the torque spec on the M6 flange nuts that hold the injector clamps down?
@waynehick
@waynehick 9 дней назад
Hi Steven. Had my EGR mapped out on my 335d and now have a DPF code on my scanner. The code is P14A7 - Diesel Particulate Filter System Flow Resistance Too High. I have no dash warnings and just picked it up on a scan. Was wondering if its linked to my EGR being mapped out and the DPF not being able to regen. My mechanic says its not... Thanks
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 9 дней назад
Hi, mapping out the EGR will keep it closed, which is the position for regeneration anyway, so that shouldn't be a factor. If the physical EGR is still installed then you should visually check that it is in fact fully closed and that it is reporting that it is fully closed to a diagnostic unit.
@waynehick
@waynehick 9 дней назад
@StevenBTuner thanks. That confirms what my tuner has said. Just reading some mixed info online. Just wondered what would be causing the code then, and would a long drive clear it?
@chasew.l.5808
@chasew.l.5808 9 дней назад
I’ve got this loft symbol, a flat tyre warning(red) but no code through the obd reading? Pls help 😢
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 9 дней назад
Hi, if all of you're tyres measure correctly with an air gauge but your iDrive says there is flat, then you will need to replace the sensor.
@user-vt6cm2mp7d
@user-vt6cm2mp7d 10 дней назад
strange ,on my first ,no washer ,no spring Pop out ,either they are stuck in the hole,doubt it,either they where missing from the start
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 10 дней назад
Hi, it would be very odd for anything to be missing. Getting stuck or flying across the room are much more likely.
@user-vt6cm2mp7d
@user-vt6cm2mp7d 10 дней назад
@@StevenBTunerhi,thanks for the reply, flying no ,i was very carefull,getting stuck maybe on the other part but i didn't see it overthere and nothing has fallen no mather ho much tapping i did,with maginification glass looks empty,even inserted something it didn't hit anything like a spring ,i think somebody from previous owners messed with the injectors since it was the one with problems(oil clogging ,the chamber is half full) and put it like that after loosing the spring and washer,the niddle from the nozzle is also stuck in with no chance to get out ,the second injector was normal with the metal tube attached to the niddle with the possibility to extract the niddle and spring + washer,since i remove them and clean them one by one i have asked thinking that maybe are injector versions that comes without spring and washer ,but i was convinced after opening the second that they are not,hope injector 3 and 4 will not have missing parts also,now i think i know why high pressure fuel rail with sensors failed often on this car
@amerigovespucci6762
@amerigovespucci6762 12 дней назад
Davvero bravo complimenti!!!!Credo che i tuoi video saranno visti finché non eliminano queste schifezze di dpf.
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 12 дней назад
:-)
@TheOnlyRaceEngineer
@TheOnlyRaceEngineer 12 дней назад
great explanation. SUBSCRIBED
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 12 дней назад
Thanks! Would you believe it...I've got to this job again on this turbo! These early Mitsubishi turbos aren't the best ones ever made, but at least the spare parts are dirt cheap.
@amerigovespucci6762
@amerigovespucci6762 12 дней назад
Bel video!!!Grazie per la tua pazienza. Se non riesci a rimuovere il dpf non ci sono alternative?
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 12 дней назад
Hi, there is an 'in-place' cleaning product made by Liqui-Moly. There is also someone in the comments here who broke up some dishwasher tablets and mixed them with water and then poured the mixture into the sensor hole. They said it worked great - but I have never tried either method myself. I hope you'll report back if you do something that works well!
@operator8014
@operator8014 12 дней назад
As a heavy haul technician, I NEVER see a clogged DPF. Lots of broken filters and failed sensors, and looooots of faultless failures, but I never see these systems run long enough to actually get any significant buildup.
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 12 дней назад
On big motors I can well imagine that the pressure of the exhaust could be stronger than the ceramic glue that holds the DPF modules together. On a motor that runs all day, you are only going to have a couple of days to catch a sensor failure or an ash blockage before the issue becomes a lot worse.
@kevinx99
@kevinx99 13 дней назад
Hi, came across this video as I’m having a problem with my 1.5 116d. All 3 glow plugs showing faults on the diagnostic scanner. Engine starts and drives fine every time. What could be the possible reason? Actually fault glow plugs that I’d need to replace? No warning lights on dashboard
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 13 дней назад
Hi, usually when you get all of them showing faults at once then it is most likely the contoller / relay that has died. If they are older than 160,000 kms then I'd be inclined to replace all of them as well as the contoller relay.
@SDX9000
@SDX9000 14 дней назад
Liked the video, but FYI, in the Nordics most people painlessly charge their cars overnight having just 20A or even 16A 3-phase connection for the whole house - and we have not only electric ovens, but also electric heat-pump house heating. What you really need is load monitoring and balancing to fully utilize available power without exceeding 16A on any of the 3 phases. Then with subsidy from the state installation like yours usually costs around 700-1000 Euro (because no need to upgrade house supply lines). It will not charge the car at more than 11kWh but works well in practice despite just 16A main fuse :)
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 13 дней назад
Hi, slow overnight charging is a lot easier but I was determined that full speed AC charging the car was never going to be a problem at any time of day or night. I'll have to look into the load monitoring and balancing to see how everything can best work together when there are multiple car chargers.
@SDX9000
@SDX9000 13 дней назад
@@StevenBTuner the points are: 1- it can cost under 1000 Euro to install a perfectly sufficient home charger that is 100% guaranteed to not blow your fuses. 2- even if your house can not get more than 16A or 20A without colossal investments, it is still enough to charge electrical car at home for most people. :) But sure, if you want to charge large batteries at full speed (22Wh) then your install is a dream. I would still not do it because my electricity network-service bill would be more than 2x as expensive due to all the extra Amps that i would rarely use :)
@A1RacingChannel
@A1RacingChannel 14 дней назад
Could you please post a working link to the drain cleaning granule product that was actually used in this video. I don’t wanna use any other type. Thank you
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 13 дней назад
I'll have to fix that! The stuff you want is sodium hydroxide granules, also known as caustic soda.
@sofitel91
@sofitel91 15 дней назад
Thank you Steven, you've done serious job.
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 15 дней назад
I hope it helps you out!
@SarfrazKhan-pr6wb
@SarfrazKhan-pr6wb 15 дней назад
I have this warning but the car doesn’t crank or start. Changed battery still no start
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 15 дней назад
The 'red car on lift' symbol is only the starting point for diagnosis. Once the car has given you the problem number, it may point you in the right direction...or you may need to also connect an OBD2 reader and get the full list of error codes.
@sozzas
@sozzas 19 часов назад
What was your code?
@MrFryfish
@MrFryfish 16 дней назад
It is absolutely educational for people with less chemistry abilities, as me!
@MrFryfish
@MrFryfish 16 дней назад
Abolute, I have watched this when you first uploaded. Very detailed. I am watching it again! I Love It!
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 16 дней назад
Glad it helps you out!
@MrFryfish
@MrFryfish 17 дней назад
Well, I find out that 28 kHz is the right frequency, delicate enough to not affect the ceramic inside the DPF
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 16 дней назад
Hi, my follow up tests with a large (but cheap) ultrasonic cleaner didn't go well - so I would recommend the method from my other vid: The No Damage DIY DPF Clean.
@MrFryfish
@MrFryfish 17 дней назад
I just manage to find an ultrasonic bath for a DPF that I am.about to clean in 1-2 months time. At the moment I am looking for a cleaning solution to dilute in 40 litres of water tank to clean the DPF. I would be glad to get some ideas of what solutions can attack to dislodge ash build/left iinside DPF. Any suggestions are considered. Off course I will report back here the success or failure of the process.
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 16 дней назад
Hi, the best solutions for dissolving ash are acidic, but you don't want something that eats away the metal on the ultrasonic cleaner with repeated use. Perhaps something like industrial coffee machine cleaning solution could work well. Be interesting to hear about what you discover!
@MrFryfish
@MrFryfish 16 дней назад
@@StevenBTuner the ultrasonic tank is made of stainless steel. I am not sure about the case of heating element.. Thank you, very very much for the suggestion to use acidic solution. I have at home a professional coffee machine descaler called Bravilor Bonamat RENEGITE. It is a Dutch producer. The Datasheet is saying that has Amidosulfuric acid (solid - pure), Sulphamic acid and Sulphamidic acid. There is datasheet available online to check.
@MrFryfish
@MrFryfish 16 дней назад
@@StevenBTuner 3 more other questions, please: 1. Should I made the solution at same concentration (or weaker) - as reference - "formula" that I use for descaling the coffee machine!? 2. To ..appreciate how much ash would be removed I believe weighter to use would be good enough as the one for lagguage? I would like to be able to measure and record before and after the weight of the filter as an indication.. 3. What would you say to use to dry the inside filter element with? I do have access to a air compressor. I know ideal would be an oven.. but I do not have enything that big.. 😎 (In case i forgot, the DPF filter that I will clean will be a BMW F48 (x1) B47 engine 2017) Off course, once again I appreciate very much all the advices and suggestions.
@chariitywrites
@chariitywrites 18 дней назад
Mine is orange what does it mean?
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 18 дней назад
Hi, it means it is slightly less serious perhaps - but otherwise the same things need to be done to work out the underlying error.
@chariitywrites
@chariitywrites 18 дней назад
@@StevenBTuner Yes I got a red engine oil light and Orange brake fluid light, Orange front and back brake light, Orange emissions test light and the Orange car with two ‘SS’ on top. BMWx1
@chariitywrites
@chariitywrites 18 дней назад
@@StevenBTuner Do you perhaps have a video I can watch where you decide the meaning of all these lights? I want to go into my next service with all the right questions for the mechanic.
@murkeywaters
@murkeywaters 19 дней назад
I managed to get the DPF off my 217k miles 325d today (what a job!!) it needs a deep clean as it re-gens but still has a back pressure of +40mbr at idle and throws up back pressure error codes. I'm going to use the same method as yourself but fix a rubber glove to one end so I can completely fill the DPF and soak. Thank you posting up all your DPF cleaning tests, it really is a great help to many people who get to the point of having no choice but to take off the DPF and give it a deep clean with proven chemicals..
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 19 дней назад
All the best with the job - you've now done the worst part I think!
@chrisbullen4317
@chrisbullen4317 19 дней назад
low pressure egr the one (of two egrs) attached to the side of the dpf
@chrisbullen4317
@chrisbullen4317 19 дней назад
I got one for ya: the low pressure egr actuator is open when a vacuum is applied or closed? This is on my 2009 X5 35d M57
@c.a.mcneil7599
@c.a.mcneil7599 19 дней назад
I have used this system have 1345000 miles on my semi truck. Still original dpf. Thanks for this guy sharing his research
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 19 дней назад
Welcome!
@junedusk1203
@junedusk1203 21 день назад
Great information
@a.a.8572
@a.a.8572 21 день назад
Great educational videos!
@WordSaber
@WordSaber 21 день назад
Thermal Cleaning is the best.
@lyndon_rich
@lyndon_rich 22 дня назад
Just for anyone at hom, u DONT need to pull the control arm. U can slip the axle out without it
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 22 дня назад
Only on some models.
@lyndon_rich
@lyndon_rich 14 дней назад
I wanted to come and make a correction to what I said before. On MANUAL cars you do not need to pull the control arms. This is due to the different sized diff and axles. Push up and back while compressing the axle as much as u can and you’ll be good to go👍
@boneless84
@boneless84 23 дня назад
Pushing the odometer button just gives me some weird code. No service options?
@notmyrealname121
@notmyrealname121 23 дня назад
dude, the two camera angles arent working
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 23 дня назад
One of my scary first vids!
@user-wj7kf8sk5r
@user-wj7kf8sk5r 27 дней назад
why use a patio cleaner and not pure acid?
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 27 дней назад
Hi, pure acid is almost impossible to get hold of in most countries unless you are a registered business, so I have chosen an available product like brick cleaning or swimming pool acid so that most people can get it.
@user-wj7kf8sk5r
@user-wj7kf8sk5r 27 дней назад
@@StevenBTuner oh thanks! Here in Germany I have now bought <25% hydrochloric acid and I am aware how dangerous this stuff is (or am I, actually), may I ask if this is the right stuff, what concentration you recommend and how afterwards I can neutralize it for disposal? Regardless of your reply I will first do thorough research before even touching it, I am aware that even inhaling the odour may be deadly or cause serious injury Anyway, "I know how to have fun" I suppose.. Thanks for your reply, much appreciated!
@user-wj7kf8sk5r
@user-wj7kf8sk5r 27 дней назад
@22:52 @Steven B.Tuner is this still your go-to preferred solution? As there is a slightly newer video but I am not sure if that overrules this one in all occasions.
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 27 дней назад
This is still the 'king', although I probably should do an update with dishwashing liquid added to the first stage, 8% strength acid for the 2nd stage and a full 10 minutes of rinsing with water and dishwashing liquid to finish off.
@user-wj7kf8sk5r
@user-wj7kf8sk5r 27 дней назад
@@StevenBTuner (TL;DR: question about <25% hydrochloric acid below..) Wonderful! So is this what you would recommend? stage 1: I intend to use some drain cleaner granulate that I bought, consisting of: AQUA (shock) SODIUM HYDROXIDE SODIUM NITRATE SODIUM CHLORIDE ALUMINA PARAFFINIM LIQUIDUM You recommend adding dishwashing liquid, and then water; what mixture proportions; as in the video? Or just so that it stays under 100 degr celcius? stage 2: I found 25% pure hydrochloric acid here in Germany, what concentration do you recommend with pure water as a mixture? (WATER FIRST) stage 3: water with dishwashing liquid, just rinsing rinsing i guess, and possibly finally a stage 4 of distilled or tap water? Thank you so much for your dedication and help
@user-wj7kf8sk5r
@user-wj7kf8sk5r 26 дней назад
I'm so shocked. I spend a good part of the day removing the DPF from my car in order to clean it. Only to discover a little window had been cut out of the DPF main body and welded back in place... DPF guts removed probably..
@guidoamschler9208
@guidoamschler9208 27 дней назад
Thanks Steve !! Starting from ~ 160.000 km my Toyota RAV4 2.2 D-4D (2008) occasionally startet to eject dense white-blue exhaust smoke when the motor was sufficiently hot, and this got worse and worse. The Toyota price for a new DPF alone is > 2000 Eu and adding the work the repair is iin the 3k Eu, a garanteed income for Totota every 160.000km. I read that Australia is suing them at high level for faulty DPFs but thit does not help me. Nothing helped other than cheating the ECU and disconnecting the battery every 50km. I must have done this about 50 times..ok one can drive like this but once per week it needs a 15 min 3000 rpm run in order to have the ECU inject some gasoline to heat the DPF structures and burn it out and prevent full blockage. The only problem with this: the DOC catalyst material that sits in front of the DPF is also clogged and does not catalyze any more , the result is smoke. Also the battery trick does not change the fundamental problem, the DPF gets fuller and fuller. I changed the 5th injector... no effect, I bought a so-called cleaned DPF for 450 Eu from Hella and had it replaced ..forget, the smoke came back a few hundred km later, all they probably do is cook the pot in an oven, but this does not eliminate the deposits as explained by Steven. I was about now to try these expensive DPF cleaners which you are supposed to inject through the pressure sensor orifices..but then I found Steven's awsome "seminar and practical demo" awesome, after having read a lot of nonsense on the interenet on this subject, here comes a systematic and almost scientific approach with real convincing tests. So I did excactly the same...pre-wash with NaOH drain cleaner and then for a limited time with HCI Brick cleaner: loads to brown and black stuff came out and almost did not want stop coming out, it needs a lot of water. After 5 days drying in the sun I found 1 garagist here in France ( 5 others told me they dont do DPFs, only Toyota could do this) . Dont give up, find this kind of guy. He charged me 4 hours because the DPF on this RAV4 only comes out via the bottom of the car after displacing a propellor.. not easy. And it almost took him extra hour to remove the two temperature sensors without damage. The result counts: I have my car back, saved a lot of money and can drive long distances without smoke and the annoying battery trick. The motor runs like a charm, the turbo sets in much easier at low rates. Thanks again Steven, the world needs more of your kind. Incidentally: another "old car mystery "for guys like you: why do some cars of age start ejecting cooling water from the overpressure cap when hot. Is there a fix other than changing water pumps, conducts, cooling liquid, pressure cap ....nothing of this helps. What is the fundamental problem and how can it be fixed.
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 27 дней назад
Really great to hear that it worked out so well! Awesome result. I'll have to do an overheating vid!
@frankieb2220
@frankieb2220 28 дней назад
NICE RIMS mate.. 😎
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 28 дней назад
Thanks!
@GreatScottByJoe
@GreatScottByJoe 29 дней назад
Why does the label change on the alloy cleaner to phosphoric acid, maybe wrongly labelled?! Just to add Coke contains a small amount of phosphoric acid..
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner 29 дней назад
The problem with using branded products is that they can and do change their ingredients, so something might work well once bit then doesn't work the next time. I much prefer to find out what the generic chemical is - and it is usually cheaper too.
@ponibrojokobro1397
@ponibrojokobro1397 12 дней назад
​@@StevenBTuner this is the way
@stevetaylor3969
@stevetaylor3969 Месяц назад
Iv got the code cc Id 131 parking light failure…. But all the lights are working on the front …. Any clues as to how to fix this ?
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner Месяц назад
Hi, a slightly bad ground connection due to corrosion can cause the light failure message, so sometimes just cleaning up the connecrions can solve the issue.
@joootooobboosheet2486
@joootooobboosheet2486 Месяц назад
The best method is to remove government regulations and regulatory agencies. These devices are dumb, and cause more harm than good, and line pockets of high up people.
@StevenBTuner
@StevenBTuner Месяц назад
Hi, without these filters we would have had a ban on diesel vehicles in the early 2000's, so I consider them a necessary evil.
@joootooobboosheet2486
@joootooobboosheet2486 Месяц назад
@@StevenBTuner Good. Consider whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact that our government is just sticking it up everyone's rear end under the guise of environmental protection. Most of the exhaust coming out of a diesel is oxygen. It is far cleaner for the environment than gasoline exhaust. I'm against rolling coal, and anyone who does that intentionally to others should be arrested for assault. However, all of these devices are not necessary, at all.