As I agree I want to be able to ride on street, these are balanced motocross designed first, supermoto later bikes. They’re going after motocross. You don’t need top suspension & frame for straight-line street comparisons. It should be simple to add brake lights & get it tagged in most states, so I wouldn’t worry about that. btw, I have no doubt their regen/clutch brake will. e an industry standard in little time. It seems perfect.
For anyone who has had to live through their sport being suppressed by noise complaints, I can’t see anything other than positivity for these things for the sport. Time will tell how cost effective they become with regard to shelf life’s and tech issues but they’ve already ticked off the first objective of being quicker than a heat engine machine.
We found out first hand on this trip how useful no noise can be, we were able to start riding as soon as the sun was up and there was enough light and get filming done before the rain came. There's no chance we would've been allowed to do that with a couple of 4 strokes.... thanks for watching dude
this! Motors and electronics will outlast us all, the only thing is batteries. In our chamber testing they went well over 1000 cycles above 80% original capacity. Ofc depends widely on usage, but replacements will likely be way cheaper or way better by the time you'd need it, if ever.
@@FluxMotorcyclesvery cool bike. My only worry is that by the time this gets a frame and suspension, it'll lose some of the magic or pedigree, as using established Japanese frames that also had 10+ years of trial and error in terms of getting the perfect stiffness/flex while also being able to switch to alum. Would you entertain the idea of making a kit that can be dropped in alum framed rollers from the big 4? Or selling components separately? I like the concept, but love my Japanese (honda) frame and part availability.
When the Alta was out that was the selling point backyard tracks. No one could complain about "noise". Same goes for trail riding, the noise complaint is no longer a thing and most hikers and Mtn bikers will wave at you and say "wow that is quiet". Depending what you ride range can be fine. A 20 miles brutally rough singletrack is tiring for a LOT of people thus more then enough range. The Arctic Leopard EXE880 will for 60-70 miles of singletrack, that tends to be a very good loop that has people done for the day. I'm not sure who is riding much more then that for singletrack that is rough in a day, that is a great day already of riding.
@@FluxMotorcycles Perfect video ! I was waiting for something like that !! I don‘t know Marko personally but I had some written contact with him over the time the Prototype was shown on social media. Always he is straight forward realistic with no „over the top“ marketing promises. That‘s exactly what we want when buying something new like an electric mx bike…. I hope the company will stay like that !
Fantastic video Max, you're really on the top of you're game bringing us this exclusive, well done to flux for taking the scalp of the varg ,cheers to Max and the team, looking forward to the next video already.
Awesome video my friend, thanks for comparing these new electric mx bikes ! If I was still racing mx I would jump on one off these in a heartbeat! I always enjoyed a challenge and riding something different! God bless and keep the videos coming!
Oh boy, this is what I've been waiting for, a regen lever to solve the clutch dilemma. I feel like you're never gonna get a pro to ride one of these without that regen/clutch lever. Stark should be scrambling IMHO.
There’s really no clutch dilemma in my mind. God didn’t send down dirt bikes with clutches on them so we could do splatters and zaps, they were a necessity to adapt a constantly spinning gas engine into a rear wheel that isn’t constantly spinning, we’ve just adapted over time to do more with a clutch. With almost instantaneous throttle response, electric bikes let you do a lot of the same things as a clutch. And this is in its very infancy, given time we will adapt and develop new techniques for electric as well. I have a stark, I’m a fast A enduro rider and unless you’re a hard enduro pro, I think electric is almost just as versatile as having a clutch. Things like creeping up a hill and managing traction is actually way easier on electric since you’re only managing one variable and you’re not worrying about stalling.
I was surprised by the result. I thought the Flux was losing time because the rear tyre wasn't really biting , but spinning instead. Full respect to the company for not over promising anything and not the usual PR BS that most new companies put out. I think they'll be totally successful. Great video again.
Thanks Stevo! As you can see from the video Sean and I were quite surprised by the results as well. The two bikes did feel like they put the power to the ground very differently. I would say the Flux felt a lot more manageable, at top power especially
@@Ozfreerider_adventures we had zero input and even came with a disadvantage (by not having a moose rear). Nobody knew the time before the reveal and we were surprised ourselves, we didn't think we'd be so competitive out of the box.
@@FluxMotorcycleszero imput ? Being present at the test is an indirect imput . They aren’t exactly going to say your bike is shit when you personally took it there for them to ride are they ? And the comparison of the $50m and $50k is so disingenuous that showed right there the test was scewed . I applaud you for bringing a new bike to market and ima sure it’s awsome . But to say that the stark cost 50 million and your bike is 50k is something only a stupid person would accept , stark build a prototype and only took in money from royal enfied etc like a year later and used that money to build factories . And then for these guys to say the bike cost 50 mill to develope is a straight lie and reveals their hand so clearly in this test . Once when congrats on the bike elec is 100% the future and I love seeing more bikes I’m just pointing out obvious issues with this video . Also can you confirm that your bike will be like 10 k cheaper than stark since it’s a 50 k bike vers 50 mill ? 😅😅😅😅😅
@@FluxMotorcycles also can you explain how a moose is an advantage ? I’ve had them in bikes before and they feel like shit . They make make bike not turn and transfer so much more energy into chassis on high speed travel of the shock and fork . Unsprung rotating mass on a bike is literally the worst thing you can do .
Awesome review. I think you do a great job with the head to head match ups.. I remember reading about the christini all wheel drive dirt bike would be interesting to see you review it.
Got to say, I love the Stark, but the Flux looks really promising. If it can beat the market leader, and they can develop better range, I think they're on a winner. Seeing as they've got an Öhlins rear shock, I'd like to see it with Öhlins forks too. I'm certainly keeping an eye on their progress, As always, cheers Max, another excellent shootout! 🙏🏻😊
Wow Flux vs Stark - luv it !!! Cannot wait for Yamaha vs Honda e-bike test !!! I rode a stark last year at 60% and it was awesome but not enough to make me switch from my 250/300/450 gas bikes !!!! I love the content and great riding in this test session !!! Nice to see Flux giving the Stark team some competition - Thank thank you 999blaz for what you bring to the moto family - by far best channel for mx on the tube !!!!
Well..... why didn't you go 100%? I mean, if you didn't really "test" the bikes potential, how can you make that statement? Is there a way to detune your ICE motor to 80% for an actual comparison? "No" is the answer
@@hamjohn8737 well you asked and answered a question that is only relevant to you - very impressive - did you have help answering No as well ? " No " is that answer
I have so enjoyed watching this channel build, Max and the team have done such a brilliant job and now this has to be the top British motocross channel and one of the best in the world. Big shout out to Shaun, he's such a consistent rider.
@@FluxMotorcycles not really, energy is energy, P=VI. more range is a simple equation, either bigger battery pack (excessively heavy) or less power output (slow) i like the idea of electric bikes but it will be decades if ever for batteries to get anywhere near where they need to be to make electric off road bikes viable. good to see your actually developing your product though rather than just announcing a load of nonsense claims like Anton the T-shirt salesman.
@@b45her you're completely right, the meaning was on one end increasing energy density at vehicle level (kWh/kg on the motorcycle) and on the other end increasing efficiency, for off-road specifically meaning wider efficiency band. Both together increase range, not 3x, but there's meaningful progress still to be made.
They would sell A LOT more bikes if the major bike manufacturers put that huge investment into developing a cleaner and greener 2 STROKE modern beast..Us older riders who i race with are not happy to trade our I.C.E powered monsters with a ride that sounds like a kitchen mixer and goes flat after 3 hard laps of the track😂😂😂
I couldn't agree more. If this is the "future" of our sport, I'll keep my two-stroke until it's been declared an antique and still whip up on these electric toothbrushes.
@@officialmysteriousrider130 The only reason 'normal' bikes have a gearbox is to generate enough torque to be able to ride. A gearbox is not needed on an electrical bike, but I would really love to see the addition of a normal mechanical clutch. Let's hope 3d printers are good enough in a few years to print 2stroke engines 😂
People probably said something similar when going from the horse and buggy to the automobile...Having said that i really want a 2024 Gasgas two stroke but would take a StarkVarg if it had more legs and then i could make the brap brap noises to make me feel better.
It's actually been done there is a DIY RU-vid r building a cr125 engine fitted with a motor straight from the primary crank gear but I'd think people would like a gearbox @@wernerxldata
gay! ...I mean great! ...great having you guys over for this test, we were all surprised with the result. Disclamer to the premix bros, we're not out to take your bikes, we just want to give you more time and options to ride, bring this epic sport to more people. Ride on ⚡
Awesome review comparison and yet the Flux was only a prototype. Imagine what the full production model will be on it's release 👌. Surronster Where you at Bro 😁
Have a stark varg, doing some new content on it shortly - so far absolutely wicked and can focus on technique a lot more. Also feels like a mountain bike to ride in terms of lightness even tho it’s heavier than a four stroke. Uploaded a few vids so far showing what it’s like
Wow that was an incredible result! 🏁 I thought the primo looked faster , landed better, had more traction out of the corners and braked well. Good luck to those guys for the production model and we’ll done for such another great shootout video. 🏁🏁🏁
Enjoyed the video, well put together. The 50 mil vs 50 thousand was a silly comparison though. If the flux makes it to production, then compare the purchase prices, thats the only $ comparison that will make sense. Anyway the grey bike looks the part and runs well so far!
I hope they are able to bring it to production. That’s the true test. Maybe a bike manufacturer will pick them up as secondary company. I have a Stark. It’s a blast to ride. It took almost 2 years to get one after putting a down payment for one.
With the development being less of a margin of money in, i hope this bike is much more affordable. I would buy one. The clutch is genius, From North America here, exited to see this finished!
Don't hold your breath. The parts are not cheap, the bike is nowhere near completed, as they said the only thing being flux here is the drivetrain. Price will depend on battery cell and part prices. Besides, there is nothing on the flux that cannot be added to the Varg. The clutch/regen, a different power mapping, it's all in a lever and some software.
You also have the Artic Leopard EXE 880 with 51HP...just saying a lot of full size bikes coming out. I'm not interested in track riding, so Enduro and singletrack trail riding is what is important to me.
For all that are here to tell us about your 2 stroke,you are not the intended market ,you opinion doesn't matter and why are you even watching so many electric bike videos? There are heaps of 2 videos out there enjoy
I think the primo looks great as it sits! It'll definitely sell just because it actually looks like a dirt bike and not as much of an e bike. Keep up the good work!
That's a great result for the underdog. I know a lot of people didn't like the idea of going electric. But it would be better to ride one of these, than nothing when they eventually ban ICE. The real selling point for me is the idea of perhaps riding new tracks where it wouldn't have been possible before. Good luck Flux.
Excellent video max the flux looked good in all area's I bet by 2030 we'll have several electric mx bikes to choose from all getting better all the time😊👌
I understand things change and like 4 strokes there great but I will stick with my 2 smoker! That being said I would love to have a go, and I never ever said or felt that way about 4 strokes. But I grew up with xr 4 smokers and hate how heavy they were!
It’s funny in these comment sections every time someone says “ I’m sticking with “ it’s always followed up by some shitbox 2 stroke 😅. Your 500 wouldn’t touch a varg and that’s even if you could actually ride it . They are total pigs
@@imoovabull6042 get a varg hill climbing is a joke on them . I rode hard enduro on mine last weekend having no clutch , instant power from a stand still and no gears makes it so easy to climb hills
@@Ozfreerider_adventures A 500 on this very channel lapped faster than a varg, a crf250 obliterated a varg on another hotlap test, the flux just lapped faster than a varg. Where do you varg fanboys get this idea that its anything more than an overpriced back yard play bike.
Both of these look absolutely ace and a much more appropriate use of EV technology than trying to convince people to rely on one for everyday transport. You charge, go to the track and race and come home, no flat batteries after leaving it in airport parking for two weeks etc. And we've already been through this with RC car racing where electric power has made a huge impact in classes traditionally dominated by internal combustion such as 1:8 scale buggies etc. When the electric versions first appeared we had the normal pit lane banter of the IC guys calling us tree huggers etc. until we started beating them, then the boot was well and truly on the other foot and they complained to the BRCA (kind of like the ACU for radio control) who gave them their own separate class, saying we had an unfair advantage. Which we did; instant acceleration, easy to work on and the extra weight actually generated more grip and suspension compliance at some tracks. Also allows experimentation with things like slipper clutches and the combined brake/clutch on the Flux's left handlebar is a very interesting development. Cool vid, thanks!!
nice ive already got my order placed for the flux and im looking forward for the development achievments! im wishing for a road legal enduro and i might even sell the exc500 if its good enough to go up against it. the biggest problem will be range and not power so lets see what my boys in slovenia can do!
All i got is this is HEAVY! Looks like money is overrated!?? Congratulations to the Primo team....not an electric bike person personally but this is pretty cool and a HUGE statement really...that cannot be overstated.
Whenever you read comments on electric bikes, you realise the real pollution problem with 2 strokes is the hot air that comes out of 2 stroke riders telling everyone about how great their bike is (\s). There are a ton of videos about 2 strokes that those people can go and watch and enjoy and yet I have to suffer them here telling me endlessly they will never ride an electric bike when noone cares. Electric bike riders will not be the people who shut down gas bikes because odds are they like all bikes. Instead it will be people who ride no bikes or probably have nothing to do with anything automotive who just don't like the noises. It would be great if ICE only bikers would complain at those people instead.
I love my electric cause it allows you to set up without stuffing around with gear selection / keeping it on the pipe etc ; just the ticket for getting ones 125s up to speed ...
In 1989 i had a KX80 -87 The sound the smell the feel. Electric bikes are fast, but i would never buy one myself. It’s like watching an actionmovie with the sound off.
Big up for Flux and Marko! So cool to see another brand step into the game! Let's goooooooo ⚡⚡ Just one consideration: best lap doesn't make any sense to make comparison between these 2 bikes. Riding for the first time a bike with both hand brakes is so difficult after ridden the whole life with a certain automatism. I'm saying this because I'm still struggling a little bit on hard pack after 5 months with my Stark with hand brakes. Also the man said he tried to catch the brake pedal while riding. Last consideration is about electric bike on hard pack track. Throttle control is everything on hard pack and I think Stark can improve a lot. I ride most of the time on hard pack tracks and in some slippery corners I feel slower than I was with my old ICE Honda CRF. Virtual clutch on the Flux can be a really game changer or at least something new really cool to see in the market.
And what use is there for a clutch on bikes that don’t stall, don’t have gears and have instant power all the time ? It’s a total waste of time . On my varg thief’s is one single time where a clutch would maybe be good and it’s when hoping big fallen trees to help stop whiskey throttle but I used hand rear brake in this situation. Apart from that . Zero need for it !
@@davidmcdermott3415 ohlins is better said no one ever ! Haha . Kyb is the suspension to have . How may brands rush out to put ohlins on their bikes ? How many riders put it on their bikes ? I havnt even seen a set of ohlins since TM used it and even they use kyb now .
Having just spent nearly all day just to change an air lifter and spark plugs on my Varadero, I am beginning to think to about the ease of electric ownership.
I just changed the filter, plug and gearbox oil in my ktm 300 in little over 30 mins, now i can spend around a minute putting petrol in it and ride it for the next 20 hours with a couple more 1 minute fill ups. in what world is riding 30 mins then waiting 3-4 hours to ride another 30 minutes progress.
@@b45her I can do that on my KDX250 in the same time. Try doing that on an XL1000V Varadero. It's a haul mate. Any 'off-road' bike with that requires the crash bars, side panels, tank, two petcocks (that have the off position on the friggin' center- so easy to turn on and gush every- friggin' -where) - fuel light wiring- just to change an air filter is bollocks. Luckily I don't ride is dusty conditions, and don't have to go through the process to often, but I pity folk who have let's say, an Africa Twin and ride it in very dusty places. SO badly designed. I hear you about the charging times on the eclectic bikes. I'll take your KTM 300 over an electric bike.
@@b45her Uhhhh. An absolute ton when you can do it in many different places moron! It's a huge growth area and expansion not replacement. And yes, I have a KTM 300 too 🤦♂. And with a 4T MX bike you don't do near that long between oil changes, filter changes, and cleanings anyways.
The mention of the generator killed me😂😂 as if manufacturing an electric bike wasnt already so much worse for the environment, youll still need a diesel or petrol generator to charge it at the track!!! Theres a reason youll always need an ICE generator, they are so much more efficient, reliable and sustainable.
As an combustian fan i must face that the EV in motocross is a part of the future. So far the only advantage is the noise issue which could be the deciding factor for wide acceptance and revitalisation of closed mx tracks or opening new ones. For this i would support the trend and couriously watching updates.
Even with batteries getting better they are in no way better than petrol i own a zero and lmx e motorcycles battery runs quickly on full throttle i love my two strokes at least ive never been stranded on those both ebikes have left me stranded x times batteries need to get far better before id get rid of my petrol machines electric is a bit if a con ive built an emotorcycle lighter more powerful and faster than my zero if i can build it anyone can
The video quality and content quality are excellent as always. However, electric motocross bikes make me sad. But, then again, so do four-stroke motocross bikes.
Did I hear right that Royal Enfield funded the development of the Stark ? A company with one of the highest carbon footprints (India) funding a greener option to the combustion engine 😂😂
@@Marleysdad808Exactly, this price comparison they keep bringing up is a complete yarn. The Stark prototypes had already been ridden by most of the media (June 2022) before RE invested (Jan 2023).
Great to see electric bikes showing it up, like has been said the Stark is extremely competitive, who doesnt want competition in a race.....and also it is very sad (and hilarious) seeing grown ups cry about electric vehicles not being 2 stroke sob sob cant take it 😂 whats wrong ? Cant handle a change and rant rant rant comments streaming like tears all down comments feeds 😂
It’s quite possible that the two second difference in lap times can be attributed to the Rider getting used to the track while on the Varg, then knowing the track better once on the Primo, for a faster time.
I think that's down to the rear brake setup, and why can't stark make the bikes with both right pedal and left hand seems easy to do. Hats off to both. Stark is still sexy as hell.
These bikes make so much power (80hp) I wonder if they made lighter with less power (say 60hp) would they actually be faster, especially on a hard pack track like this.
The day motocross and supercross goes all electric is the day the sport takes a massive dive in rider interest and spectator attendance … They have no soul and sound awful …
The technology has gone a long way and before we had Starfire we only really had Alta and we were kind of stumped with that because you know one big company kind of wanted to steal all that technology from Ulta
Very misleading with your investment claims. While the amounts are correct, Stark did not need RE's money to develop the bike. They had multiple bikes before that investment. They were way past alpha and beta testing and had preproduction bikes inter launch videos. The RE investment was for production. Flux's owner invested his own money to start the company and build one bike, one. Also, I'm not buying the results. If you were in Barcelona with Anton, the vary would have won. Making your test rider ride a bike with controls he never used before dilutes the comparison results. With that said, I'm happy to see other companies developing new e-mx bikes.
If Marco is monitoring, why not build the rear wheel with the electric motor in the hub? Why put the motor in the frame and use a chain to transfer that power to a rear sprocket?
A letter I sent to Stark. Vark R&D Department Dear Sir/Madam Proposal for a new throttle control system. (Patent pending) I don't think a single test rider/journalist at your launch in Spain wasn't very impressed by the Vark. Most of the riders felt they could be faster on the Vark than on any internal combustion motocross bike. They also noted how much more difficult they found riding the IC 450 bikes that Vark provided for comparison, after they had ridden the Vark. The question is why. The answer is ease of control. The main reason test riders liked it so much was ease of operation, due to fewer controls, fewer tasks demanded of the rider. Simpler tasks are easier to do at speed than complex tasks. Simpler tasks can be done faster than complex tasks. Motocross is an extremely difficult sport. It's a very demanding sport, not only because it is physically demanding but because the many controls make operating a motocross bike a very complex task. Simplifying the controls of a motocross bike make it possible to ride it faster. The Cockpit The "cockpit" of a motocross bike is very busy, with half a dozen controls. You have a steering control (the handlebars), used for directional control and balance, then on the handlebars, on the right side, is a throttle control and a front brake control, and on the left side, a clutch control. These hand controls have to be operated while still holding on to a constantly accelerating and bouncing machine. So riders have to use their hands not only to hold on to the machine but to operate the steering, clutch, throttle and front brake. And then riders have to use their feet to operate the rear brake and the gear selector. It should be obvious that the less complex a task is, the less demanding a task is, the easier it is to do at speed. So since motocross is about speed, the way to make a rider faster is to make it easier to control the bike. Having fewer controls reduces the load on the rider, making operating a motocross bike easier and easier translates into more speed. The Vark has significantly simplified motocross by eliminating two controls, the clutch and the gears thus significantly simplifying the rider cockpit, and they cannot be stalled, all greatly reducing demands on the rider, making it easier to go fast. Electric bikes have shown that by simplifying the controls riders can ride faster with more consistency. And motocross is all about speed. Freeing the feet The lack of a clutch gives riders the option of moving the rear brake to the handlebars, thus freeing up their feet from having to operate any controls. On a conventional internal combustion motocross bike, a rider is forced to move their feet hundreds of times during a race. Freeing the feet from having to operate controls makes it much easier for a rider to maintain optimum form, with the balls of their feet on the footrests. Constantly having to move your feet to operate the controls interferes with keeping the balls of your feet on the pegs, with gripping the bike with your legs, with weighting the outside pegs in corners, with putting your foot out in corners. Substantially reducing foot movement takes a load off the rider, making riding a motocross bike noticeably easier. A rider can brake-slide into right-hand corners with their leg out and into left-hand corners with the ball of their foot weighting the outside peg. The Twist-grip Throttle control. The next most disruptive control, requiring a lot of movement, is the twist-grip throttle control. The twist-grip throttle requires up to 70 degrees of rotation for full throttle. There is just no way around the fact that having to twist a throttle grip by up to 70 degrees will cause a rider to kink their wrist and/or drop their elbow. See an example in this video ru-vid.comUgkx0UeoUVgC7KnQ_WyU2uX72WsMUMCjov0F So operating a twist-grip throttle forces the rider to kink their wrist and/or lower their elbow. Good form requires straight wrists and high elbows. Low elbows reduce the rider's control of the machine, one elbow up and one down, even more because of the asymmetry. Impacts are best handled with straight wrists and high elbows. Reducing the amount of rotation required for full throttle makes the throttle too sensitive for optimal throttle control. Just like having to operate foot-controls disrupts staying in form with the lower body, so does the twist-grip throttle control disrupt staying in form with the upper body, it makes staying in form significantly harder, more complicated adding difficulty. The solution What if the rider were to twist the throttle-grip but instead of the grip rotating on the bar, a sensor measures the force of the twist action and opened the throttle accordingly but without any actual movement of the throttle-tube. Just like when you stand on an electronic scale, the scale does not move, but the pressure sensor gives an accurate readout of your weight. On an electric bike (and on a ride by wire IC bike) all one needs to do is replace the position sensor on the throttle control unit with a torque or pressure sensor. The pressure or torque sensor measures the force applied by the rider and relays that information to the throttle control unit which opens the throttle accordingly. With a tradition throttle control, a rider determines the amount of throttle by rotating the twist-grip throttle tube. The position of the throttle tube determines the amount of throttle. With my system the amount of throttle is determined by how much twist force (torque) the rider exerts on the throttle tube without the tube actually rotating. The ratio of force to throttle opening needs to be determined by extensive testing, too low would make throttle control too sensitive and too high would cause fatigue. Individual fine tuning by the rider will be possible. With my system the twist action to open the throttle is the same as the conventional rotating grip throttle, (it takes a twist force to spin the throttle-tube) the difference is that instead of the throttle tube rotating and a position sensor measuring the position and relaying that information to a throttle controller which opens the throttle accordingly, a pressure sensor measures the twist force the rider applies and sends that information to a control unit that opens the throttle accordingly, without any rotational movement of the throttle tube, thus avoiding a kinked wrist and a lowered elbow. The actions are so similar that riders shouldn't have a problem adapting. The advantage is riders can apply throttle without kinking their wrist or lowering their elbow. This would be far less disruptive making staying in form with a straight wrist and high elbow much easier. Additional benefits Increased connectivity to the machine. The handlebars have two main functions, one, they provide grips for the rider to hold onto, keeping the rider attached to the machine, and the other, they are used for steering control which is essential for balance and directional control. There are two grips on the handlebars used by the rider to hold onto, keeping the rider on the bike and also connecting the rider to the steering control. One of them, the right one, is loose and spins on the handlebars. So why have a grip that spins? Necessity. Motocrossers need a throttle control, and trial and error has determined the twist-grip throttle control to be the best option available for carbureted motorcycles. But it is a compromise. While most motocross riders are aware of how the traditional twist-grip throttle interferes with keeping their elbow up and their wrist straight, few however, will be aware of the reduced connectivity to the handlebars and therefore reduced control of their machine a loose spinning grip causes because it's all they have ever known, so they are unaware of this negative affect but if you doubt that a loose grip is detrimental to connectivity, feel and control, consider what it would be like to have the left grip loose and spinning like the throttle grip. This should help you realize that loose spinning grips are detrimental to connectivity, feel and ultimately control. In downhill mountain biking there is no need for a throttle. No downhill riders choose to have spinning grips for obvious reasons but not obvious to motocross riders because it is all they have ever experienced, it's all they know, so a spinning grip feels natural and normal to them. Asymmetry Another thing to consider is asymmetry. There is an inherent asymmetry in having the right handlebar grip loose and rotating and the left grip solid. This results in asymmetry in the riders physical position on the bike when they are applying throttle, with one elbow up and the other down. Asymmetry is detrimental to control of the bike. No one wants bent bars or one footrest higher or further back than the other. Watch the start of any motocross race and you will see all the riders with their elbows up until the gate drops and then watch as most drop their right elbow. continued below...
Whiskey Throttle Some people have commented that they think my system could result in accidental throttle openings (whiskey throttle) while bouncing around a motocross track with high impacts like square edge bumps and hard landings. (Some of those may have confused twist force with squeeze pressure.) My argument against that is that any action that would cause accidental throttle on my twist force throttle control, would also cause accidental throttle on a conventional twist position throttle control, so a twist force throttle would not be more prone to accidental throttle than a traditional twist-grip throttle. In other words any action that resulted in an unintended twist force being applied to the throttle grip would also result in the rotation of a traditional throttle's twist-grip. Both systems require a twist force to increase throttle, it is just that with my system there is no rotational movement. Surely if riders can keep the throttle-tube in a consistent position without unintentionally moving it while bouncing around a motocross track they would be able to keep a consistent twist pressure while bouncing around a motocross track. My twist pressure throttle control will not cause any more accidental throttle than the traditional system. In fact I believe it could result in less unintended throttle incidents because it is easier to reduce twist force on the throttle grip without actually having to counter rotate it than having to counter rotate the throttle tube while being pushed back by the accidental acceleration. In Summation My initial premise that the traditional twist-grip throttle control interferes with staying in form, with keeping the elbow up and the wrist straight, cannot be logically refuted. It's an empirical fact. There is just no way around the fact that having to twist a throttle grip by up to 70 degrees will cause a rider to kink their wrist and/or drop their elbow. My claim that not having to twist a throttle tube by 70 degrees would alleviate those problems. Well that should be obvious, it's self evident, so also logically irrefutable. My claim that a spinning grip leads to less control is proven by the fact that no rider would choose to have the left grip spin like the throttle grip because it would be obvious to them that it would lead to less control, and in downhill mountain biking where there is no need for a throttle, no rider chooses to have a spinning grip. My claim that having one grip that spins and the other solid, is asymmetrical and asymmetry reduces control, is self-evident. Testing So the only avenue left where it might be possible to logically refute my claim that my system will be better than the traditional twist-grip throttle control system, is whether riders might have difficulty adapting to controlling the throttle with twist pressure rather than twist position, whether riders will adapt to and end up preferring it to the traditional throttle control, both in terms of making it much easier to stay in form and as a method of controlling the throttle, and that can only be determined through actual testing. Testing my throttle control system on an IC bike would require first converting it to ride by wire, since none of the current MX bikes use ride by wire so it would be much easier to do initial proof of concept tests on an electric MX bike. I am not saying I am 100% certain that my system will improve rider control but I am 100% certain that the only way to find out is through actual testing. Closing statement Currently Stark seems to have a head start on the other manufacturers but this will not last. Stark will soon be facing steep competition from the big motorcycle manufacturers with their massive resources and decades of experience with MX bikes and if Stark want to stay ahead, they will have to continually improve their product. They need innovative ideas. If tests show that my system does indeed improve rider control, adopting my throttle control system should help Stark stay ahead. There is also the possibility of selling my system to other motocross manufactures for use in their I.C. bikes. I believe my throttle control system would not only be beneficial in motocross but hard-enduro, trials, off-road and even in the high precision world of MotoGP. Also a pressure controlled throttle presents the opportunity of controlling re-gen braking with opposite twist pressure, the more (reverse pressure) one applies to the throttle grip the more re-gen braking is applied. Looking forward to hearing your opinions on my Twist Force Throttle System. Regards Alfred Karius
@@alfredk471 i can't say that I've read all that text but I've read that you suggest a force sensitive throttle. I actually think it's a brilliant idea because I've thought about that too: I am a casual flight simmer and in the flightsim world it is no mystery that the stick of the F16 fighter aircraft is force sensitive: it moves only a little, if i recal properly, but it needs a certain amount of force to be moved and so force is the main variable for the output. I don't know what it would feel like on a motocross bike and whether it could be tiring after some time, but I think that someone should try one. Maybe it could be testable even with existing electric motorcycles just by replacing the throttle with a force senstivie one.
@@MVPever Yeah, I did say the only way to know for sure if it will be beneficial, is to test it and that it would not be difficult to do on an electric MX bike. The twist force required could easily be tuned to require no more muscle strain than a conventional throttle.
There was a Stark at Mildenhall few weeks back and the Guy had it charging on a Huge noisy Diesel generator after every Moto so I'm not sure what's the point of it if it can't last at least one practice session ?
Don't be surprised that Stark dumped so much money into that and then another manufacturer can come into the game later piggybacking off of Stark's research & development and produce just as good a bike with less. With electric vehicles, performance really comes from that power delivery and traction control. EV's give instant torque so the it's all about making the power useable. That's all done with the software. It's good to see another player in the EV motorcross game
24MX the greediest MX store out there. I have spent aprox 1000 Euro/year at them the last 15 years. Bought a 3x3 aluminum tent in November 2022 and stored it on shelf til summer 2023. When I unpacked it one leg was bent 15 degrees and two short scissor profiles to the roof was broken in half. I photoed the entire unpacking, sent them the photos and asked for new spareparts (not a new tent). The answer was how I unpacked it, how I have used it, why I waited 8 month etc. To make it short it was several emails back and forth. My season ends in late October and restarts mid May and my first need of a tent is always first weekend in July. Thats why the eight months. Summary, I didnt get anything, they blamed me. Ended up with using my steel tent fram and painted the canvas black. No more marketing for 24MX on my behalf. I do everything I can to make people leave 24MX. So far at least 20 people from my club as they was there during the unpacking + aprox 10 neighbours that followed my email conversation with 24MX on spot. Sheers from Sweden.
Well done on that effort with the Primo 👌 Untouched chassis tunin; this is impressive. I actually think that tyres could have played an even bigger roll in this shootout? The Primo being the underdog; it was fighting for traction and the tyre compound is obviously very hard. I know just these hard pack tracks are literally hydrophobic so water pools rather than absorbs and turns in to a bog like Britain; so they are more like skating on ice when wet (even less traction). Contrary to Britain where to a point wet can mean traction but also mean huge rutts? British tracks seem to always be degraded and very morphological and dynamic; they change from season to season? Someone from the horse racing industry needs to show the motocross racing industry how an all weather track is built! Lots and lots of drainage FFS 🤪 Sorry my criticisms are of the over abundance of haphazardly planned motocross tracks! Sure they have an awesome layout and great spectator viewing etc etc but puddles and or ruts because an entire motocross industry can't be f***ed fixing because 'the tracks done now, we aren't changing it' so everyone literally experiences a sub par motocross experience standard across the board because some "track building earth moving extraordinaire" knows how to build a track! Yeah he's also awesome at keeping himself in business lol. Which brings me to my point....this review comparison was kind of not a good representation of what these bikes are capable head to head; especially if both of them were having traction issues? How can you determine power and power delivery in an environment with more traction? I think it maybe difficult to attenuate sound and RPM on the different bikes and many many other factors that could play a role especially on bikes that are very quiet? Gear meshing etc all play a part in how quiet the power delivery seems? Gear meshing in the high RPM range and the gears "sounding" louder could buffer a person's perceptions switching directly from one bike to the next? What would be hugely impressive, to give the bike to rider for 1 month to get their best times on a number of different tracks? Then a brake or even use of some gas bikes so reset and installed parameters from the previous electric bike (as just these changes could have enough difference to account for the time) Then let the rider do the exact same thing with a month of riding doing the same tracks and relatively similar laps and taking the best over all lap times on each track.......THEN the world really gets a good comparison. I'm still very impressed though. The expense for Primo team will be just like Stark as they scale up production and look for more investors? They are going to need more machines and more automation to duplicate and manufacture parts? As they expand they are either going to need to run shift work or run a completely separate assembly lines for production and development? That's where shit gets super complex when you are using huge manufacturing machines that use mouldings for processing; you can't just easily switch in or out a mould without causing some kind of calibration issues? If you stop a production system swap out the moulds then swap it back again; your quality assurance will just just say no because there will be too many faults? In a small company you can deal with a bit of waste to recalibrate but it can become huge conflicts between competing interests. Hence why nearly always they run the two parts of the company at entirely different factories? Production will be unclean and maybe not as maintained and development will absolutely spotless and pristine like this machines are brand new? Anyway my point being is you aren't really comparing apples with apples? Usually concept builds are crazily over engineered and then when the "finance team" get involved they hack the thing to pieces and give you ¾ of what the concept delivered because they had to reduce production costs and the awesome over engineered stuff gets either binned or they make a limited edition model and call it the alpha or what ever and slap a premium price tag on it because someone will always buy the better one even if it's over priced? Which brings me to my last point. Price. None of this means a single thing until people are getting a final price on production model and it's final specs? So far it looks very promising but i have fears that this hype might tame down when the production model arrives? There will be some improvements for sure but those finance guys always f*** up a business by over hyping and under delivering by trying to over promote to stay relevant until product release? That's what will make or break a new tech motocross startup. Size of production scalability insanely underestimated by the public and how brutal it can be for everyone involved? Did i mention that they will probably need an entire production line again (3rd) just dedicated to making spare parts and for various models over time? Yeah that last one should bitch slap everyone to the face to consider? That $50K probably doesn't include the machinery for development used to create this bike? So yeah I'm just highlighting that part? I could probably build one for less than $50K using other people's machines? There's a huge huge amount involved going from concept to production and most companies are just not prepared for the sheer scale and sheer amount of pressure that f*** witt PR firms can do to a business because they can't keep their month closed and they lie to try be competitive forcing under promising and over delivering? Why because the PR teams are hot to trot to go to the press on a what the concept bike has because the finance team butchered it? Just adding an additional salary to have 1 machinists running a single CNC costs more than that concept bike? Now plugs all those variables into your imagination and scalability algorithm in ya brain? I wish them well but I won't even be disappointed if they don't make it; cause the original engineer refused to budge on product quality and the metrics makes them unprofitable or not profitable enough for investors? Reason why we get sub par products in the end is because investors want their cut and it's taking too long or isn't returning enough? Quality will always take a back seat to profitability. Investors will just say no. That's my take. Keep up the spirited development because we need more western European manufacturers into this space. The Chinese are and have always been in this space but we are not talking motocross racing like these bikes? They aren't on this level or even orientating themselves towards this level in my opinion?
I'm also a mountain biker and strangely I'm waaay more receptive to electric dirtbikes than EMTB's. Can't wait to try all that instantaneous torque 😅 *Edit Interesting, so it's not a huge instantaneous kick apparently, that would probably be too insane anyway 😂
