Really enjoyed that. Ellis seems a proper bloke. I think if more people in punditry & commentary spoke as he did (obviously without the swearing, even though I liked it) you’d expand the sport to a much wider audience in this country. Rather than the traditional Ra Ra brigade Will definitely pay more attention to Union now
Should definitely pay more attention to rugby union, best game on the planet lad. Out of curiosity, what pundits do you mean rah rah brigade other than Clive Woodward
@@jakeclough8090 maybe so but rugby Union class division isn't just an Englishman thing. In Australia Rugby Union is hugely reliant on private schools but the difference there is Rugby League is now a much more attractive option for those private school kids hence why Rugby Union is dead in Australia as they will never move away from being a sport predominantly for non working class people.
@@iwgp4nagata well that’s partly it, it’s also more that rugby league is just more popular and hyped up in Australia than union is. Which is a shame because it’s shite. And union skills are so interchangeable with league especially as a back in union, it’s worth taking the risk in aus and going to league because the money is so big
@@jakeclough8090 it's more hyped up because it's a better game lol. There is no Rugby competition better than the NRL. Union in Australia will fall behind soccer, things are that bad. There is only a limited amount of elite athletes and if a sport only really cares about privately educated kids that player pool is limited. Once the NRL clubs then started to get the private school kids into their systems then the potentially Union participation pool becomes even smaller. Maybe they should of stopped being obsessed with class a long time ago.
@@iwgp4nagata a better game yet only Australia care about it 😭😭 smaller men, easier game league. The rugby World Cup, 6 nations, champions cup, premiership and top 14 are all better rugby competitions mate. Well yes soccer will overtake league and afl eventually I have no doubt. Yes I agree rugby shouldn’t be stuck to private schools. That’s the difference between England and Australia though, rugby union is competing with football in England in state schools whereas in Australia it’s competing with rugby league. League and union at the heart of it are very interchangeable and so Aussie union has suffered from they 18 year old prospects switching. No 18 year olds switch to football from rugby here because the games are so different. Also I will say, union is growing rapidly across Europe and South America and it will slowly be more known in America. The nrl can do everything they try in America, New Zealand and England but union will eventually regain popularity in the pacific, even if it takes 10+ years of 50 years
Big character and clearly bright. My son having moved to a private school late, can't compete with the skills of those that have been right through prep schools and club rugby etc nor is he as mentally tough as some. So some boys do get a leg up to a level that perhaps they shouldn't and ultimately don't have the mental toughness for, that's all!! These private shool kids often have more social confidence and that can be intimidating for state school kids, when meeting up for representative rugby at a younger age. Jordan hijacks Jones's words and becomes aggressively chippy. Firstly it is ludicrous to say that ALL private school kids are privileged and have never faced adversity. Say that Lawrence DaIlaglio and James Haskell's faces. Even the 15 year olds that go to Harrow are the likes of the Vunipola's!!! Did their parents drive range rovers? It is childish to suggest that there aren't extremely mentally tough people coming out of private schools, look at our long violent history lead by these people! The coaching, kit and confidence advantage are sometimes real, but claiming that all private school kids are mentally soft is lazy, low quality journalism.
When I was playing rugby growing up it was more about who you know rather than how good you are, so many players didn’t get picked for the regionals or academy’s because they were deemed to play for the wrong club or the coach had links to a certain club and only wanted to help those players, I knew a guy who was shocking, he was a hooker and couldn’t throw for toffee yet his dad worked at a prem club and he got a place in their academy even though there were at least 3 better hookers in the region, and again I went to a regional tournament which was a trial for england age group tour and my region dominated every game yet the vast majority of players selected were from one of the worst regions because the coach was from that region, I hope it’s changed but I doubt it
While ellis is right about a class problem , its nowhere near what it was , i think he has a chip on his shoulder about it . If your good enough, you'll make it no matter what background you have . Courtney lawes , kyle sinkler are prime examples of it.
Im not from the Northern Hemisphere but, if he did witness boys being selected not entirely on their talent then I guess he can be forgiven a little for the 'chip-on-the-shoulder'. But something he did refer to is that he didn't grow up witnessing any cross-bred Englishman becoming successful in Rugby and that shouldn't be overlooked either if we are to look at how to grow the game. The Israel Daggs and Sonny Bill Williamses of our country, grew up with a real doable dream within their grasp, of pulling their families out of state houses and being able to have nice cars and - guess where they were getting that idea from? Jonah Lomu of course. Dont underestimate that children can aspire to be something or someone they look up to as a child. On a different subject, Something that I see as a little bit of a handbrake for NZ Rugby today, is the fact that polynesian and even just mixed race boys, mature a lot earlier than "white kids", and they become huge powerful humans to boot. So for that reason, the likes of my friends are reluctant to get their little white sons into Rugby at school now, preferring soccer for them, because it is so much of a mis-match size wise that it is actually very dangerous for them. (Im talking early teens size differences}
I had my son in football, not a good environment for a child. Have him at rugby now, what a breath of fresh air. Rugby tries but working class schools are obsessed with football
Because it’s the most universal sport, it’s much easier to put up football goal posts, and rugby isn’t really a working class sport. Also all the gay locker room ‘banter’ is a bit off putting to most men.
you are lying how was it not a good environment ? you are probably a rugby fan because I could tell by the attitude which prevailing is in rugby which has an element of moral superiority above other sports and not to mention their obsession with comparing themselves to football
@@gunner4life568 parents swearing at refs, coaches arguing with the refs. Kids only coming on for 5-10 mins at the end. I think the reactions on here prove my point. Football is a brilliant game but very toxic
@@stg6004it only seems gay if you are the actual gay one 😮😅 rugby develops more character than football , any sport is better than doing nothing. Football will have more opportunities and bigger potential paydays. Get your kids in as many sports as possible its best for their overall athletic development 👏
❤ & ✊ Ellis…….The rugby media can’t stand any working class guys coming through ….just look at how they treated Faz & how they went for Jason Robinson back in the day …..all their bullshit about growing the game 😂😂😂
That’s absolute bs mate, absolute bs. Jason Robinson was adored, I love faz but he doesn’t exactly do much to stop him getting stick and it has nothing to do with private schooling. I know for a fact a lot of effort is going to grow the game. Just because New Zealand rugby is going terribly don’t talk about English rugby mate
@@jakeclough8090 WTF is this a wind up? NZ Rugby is far from being knocked out in the pool stages of World Rugby - is second by 1 point terrible to you? Its not for us.
Ellis is right. I will say the private school network has done exceptionally well to produce the players we have and have had. But working class rugby stars are very rare. If you want to be undisputed top rugby nation, you can't just have a world class route via private schools. The German football association is a great example of this switch in focus. It never took attention away from the private school network, but guaranteed a minimum level of coaching for working class kids with an interest.
I guess the problem is that it is mainly the independent and grammar schools that makes up the majority of school rugby. School cutbacks and the selling of sports pitches mean that many of ordinary schools just do not have any appetite to organise School rugby. Schools are also being put off with the risk element of the game and with the liklihood of actions regarding concussion depending on how it is managed could spell the end of school rugby as it currently is
RFU won't bite the hand that feeds it. It has a conveyor belt of ready made elite players without having to invest a penny. It's paid by wealthy middle class parents to the tune of 30k a year school fees.
@@patrickchilds2987100% agree, went to a state school and kind of knew the rules of rugby. Which was better than most in my year, we hardly had positions other than wingers and full back. I wasn’t a big lad by any means, pretty skinny real yet I was hooker. We didn’t even play on a rugby pitch, we played on a football pitch. It really wasn’t set up for lads to get into it through school so I ended up playing football. Bear in mind my PE teacher was a rugby player so we probably had a slightly better go at it than a lot of other schools but even then you could hardly call it rugby.
Love Ellis Genge and I've aIways loved rugby. So thank you Ellis for being you and thank your parents for the job they did, but most of all, thank the people around Ellis that spotted the gem he was and nurtured this great talent.
Really enjoyed this interview with Ellis. You have to get some rugby league legends on too!! Ellery Hanley, Martin Offiah, Kevin Sinfield these type of guys
One of the best episodes yet. Until the Netflix doc I didn't really like Ellis. I'm Welsh. But what a lovely bloke. Really talks some sense. I'm now a fan.
Regarding the class and school debate.... Interestingly the squad around the all conquering 2003 world cup had a more even state school / private school split... Off the top of my head the likes of Johnson Cohen Robinson Corry Leonard Woodman Vickery Thompson Back... Or at least not the Harrows, Etons, Rugby School and quaint prep schools of the more recent and current squads. You can draw your own conclusions as to whether this made the team abit more streetwise dogged and ultimately successful
To be fair it is a bit overblown how private school dominated the English squad is when compared to other countries. Out of last Six nations team, Genge, Marler, Cole, Chessum, Martin, Underhill, Cunningham-South, Dombrand, Roots, Mithcell, Care, Ford, Spencer all state schools. I don't think I can name one Irish player that went to a state school. The England football team largely went to state schools but hasn't exacly been renowned for its mentality and grit.
@@BertFlashmanit’s classic Genge playing the poor man. Wait til he wheels out the race card whilst the starting team for the 2019 final had 7 coloured players out of 15! Yep, huge systemic race problem!
Love Ellis Genge and I've aIways loved rugby. So thank you Ellis for being you and thank your parents for the job they did, but most of all, thank the people around Ellis that spotted the gem he was and nurtured this great talent.
Great interview yet again, have no idea who this young man is but like the fact that a council estate lad has done well in rugby. Footballers need to watch the rugby men in how they take pain of a game big-time. 😎
Really enjoyed this one, nice to mix it up from the footballer intetrviews Clive woodward won a world cup so i won't act like he's clueless, but some of his takes are horrendous. Expect better from him. You don't see Graham Henry or Steve Hansen speaking nonsense for clicks? 1:04:08 Mate South Africa finished 3rd in 2015. They just had that upset loss to Japan which i guess overshadows everything else
Never watched a game of Rugby before - grew up in a school in London with no access to grass and was just never something that appealed - but sat through the hour of this interview and thoroughly enjoyed listening to this. What a top bloke
Mate you gotta watch some games then. Harlequins just played a brilliant game against Bordeaux a week or so ago, watch the highlights. They’re the closest team to you in south london
Rugby players are deliberately scouted late because so much of the game hinges on physicality, which isn't settled until late teens. It's a late specialism sport. To give an example, there is far less athletic, physical difference between 2 footballers playing different positions - e.g. Ben White and Erling Haaland - than the rugby equivalent e.g. Ellis Genge and Louis Rees Zammit. It just wouldn't make sense to scout kids at U8. It's U14 because that's when it starts to become clear where a kid might play. This is true of both codes, Union and League. As for class, Rugby has largely been defined by class ever since it split into Union and League. I coach both codes and there is no doubt Rugby League attracts kids Union simply wouldn't (the same is equally true that Union attracts kids who'd never play League). Rugby - both codes - are deeply cultural sports in a way a sports like football isn't, and if you're not from that culture or it doesn't appeal to you, you won't play it because it's so integral to both sports. Take Rugby Union's obsessional 'Rugby values'. To alot of people this idea of Sportsmanship, kicking the shit out of someone then drinking 15 pints with them is dated, maybe even cultish, hypocritical and sanctimonious and used to look down on other sports yet it is completely, 100% part of rugby union culture and it is proactively coached. It's called TREDS. I don't know any other sport that makes such a play of its values and its culture apart, maybe, from Union's working class mirror Rugby league. It's not inclusive. In fact, what Rugby Union should do (and what League is already doing) is make inclusivity one of its core values, and then really try to live it. It's a tough sport which cannot be completely sanitised and actively trying to have an inclusive culture would do far more to grow it than trying to make it 100% safe IMHO.
Rugby Union is inclusive with respect to it’s probably the only team sport that accommodates most human body shapes. Every other team I can think of has a prototypical physique. A union tight head prop, lock, scrum half and outside back mostly look different to each other, and importantly, each position ( and by logic, body shape) has a skill set that another position (body shape) doesn’t, and thereby a unique value and importance in the team.
Probably to do with a mixture of things. The Welsh football team has done brilliantly and there’s no doubt Gareth bale’s stardom in the prem, at Madrid and for wales has made him arguably the biggest and most popular Welsh role model in wales, and he certainly is outside of it. Also wales with bake have been to a lot of tournaments and been over-achieving for the size. Whereas the rugby has been on a slow decline. The Welsh team throughout the 2010s has been very good and you’ve had a golden generation with north, tipuric, faletau, biggar, roberts, Davies, Williams etc etc etc but now they last of them are going, there is a lack of youth coming though and probably even more worryingly the club sides are just dreadful and making huge losses. I think the wru have run these sides poorly, but I think also Welsh rugby clubs have suffered, same as in England but to a lesser degree, with football’s utter dominance. Sky sports just have marketed the premier league so well you can’t get away from football. You have to be in to football for small talk and convo and the marketing of role models and heroes is huge in the premier league and inspires and interests kids and young people way more.
If private school players don’t have the drive then why are there so many playing for England? Yes rugby isn’t played as much in state schools but there’s plenty that do. Get fed up with this whining, u play the hand your dealt.
I don’t think it’s whining it’s just stating a fact that we are probably missing a lot of talented players. Some of whom might be sealing your Range Rover right now.
Very similar story to genge from a working class south london family, no family member has been in education past the age of 15 most men in my family have been inside. Luckily I was given a scholarship to another big sports school in the south west area. My face never fitted and I have no friends from school all my mates were local lads back home. However hand on my heart in terms of rugby there was never a barrier from coaches and selectors (I don’t think, I didn’t make it because I wasn’t good enough). The problem we have isn’t let’s pull down the current system of private schools but we need funding and a culture change in working class areas and schools to get kids playing. The RFU need to get money and coaches into state schools to push rugby teams for kids to play in. There’s no perfect answer to this situation but the RFU need to look at the situation of breeding a culture in state schools where parents and kids want to be engaged and when you look at the ridiculous culture football breeds it’s there for the taking
In South Africa every school rich or poor plays rugby. Our captain Siya didn't have shoes and played rugby barefeet when he was a kid and look where he is now. Cheslin Kolbe grew up in a community where gangsterism was on another level and look where he is now. It's always weird hearing about rugby and class systems in the northern hemisphere. In the southern hemisphere playing rugby, cricket or football or any other sport is seen as a way out of the community you grew up in.
@@johnrichards4097 well I'm talking about the new South Africa. I was born in 1991 and in 1994 Nelson Mandela was elected president in our first democratic election. I don't know anything about the racist apartheid South Africa other than stories family members have told me.The players I'm talking about are 30 and early 30s which is around the same age as me.
Don't think Hemispheres have anything to do with it. Pretty sure Australia has the same issue, which is one of the reasons Union has very little following over there now. Countries like France and Wales don't have an issue, but it's definitely still a big problem in England. But I don't think it will change until we replace the dinosaurs we have at the RFU!!
@@johnrichards4097that's obvious. The Apartheid government only wanted white guys in the teams. They gave the best of everything to whites. You still can't be beating up on us. We've come a long way. You haven't even started the journey.
I love the bok delusion I really do. Football dominates amongst black communities. Sure there maybe more rugby opportunities in more communities and backgrounds than there used to be but to say it’s everyone’s game in South Africa is utter bs. Hopefully one day and the 2 World Cup wins recently will help that but you’re not there yet
I can vouch for this class problem I played for Worcester warriors academy,county and england A at youth level wasn't ever a problem at 5-12 but as soon as puberty hit the academy changed and became very clicky rich kids and the poor nearly all the rich kids made it and none of us poor kids made it ...our parents simply couldn't afford the rugby gear or petrol to take is round the country to games never mind the 2 or 3 international tours we were supposed to go on thousand pound trips to SA , Ireland , Scotland just wasn't viable ❤
That was awesome ! Listening to you, I reckon You’re mob would absolutely Love Australia ! Season or 2 after Lions tour with Angus and the Waratahs!? Absolutely destroy! 💯 Move’em’ all out ! Coach for western Sydney ladz!
And it’s your number one sport. Remember we have to have cricket and league and football etc. not many other countries play so many games at such a high level as England. South Africa don’t really play football nor do Australia and NZ not too many cricket and league in Scotland and Ireland. England because we invented most of the games play all of them to a greater extent than other nations.
@@johnrichards4097 I’ll happily explain why all your points are just so wrong. Wales football is now the number one sport. Historically it may have been a bit smaller than rugby but it’s always been close behind and now in the last 15 years at least football is definitely number one amongst young people. Football is the biggest sport in South Africa so again you’re completely wrong 😂😂 it’s just popular amongst the black population and doesn’t have access to the same money and resources some other nations have. The black population makes up about 80% of south Africa so very big. Australia play rugby league and Aussie football which are both way bigger than rugby, as well as cricket and now football too, so rugby union is minimum the 5th sport they play now and historically only 4th. New Zealand historically has been rugby union dominated with some cricket yes but league and football are fast catching that though and will overtake within the next 10 years sadly. Ireland are historically heavy on hurling, Gaelic football and football so rugby is 3rd of 4th biggest and only in the last 5-10 years has rugby really started to become a competitor for top spot. Scotland ha always been very very football dominated. There aren’t many countries in Europe with 5 million populations who have 2 teams who can fill out 60k football stadiums with Celtic and rangers, that’s how football dominated Scotland is. The school of ‘because I tell you’ was easier than having to write this long-winded comment to explain to you other countries basic cultures. Your belief of only England plays multiple sports is a ridiculous one, as an Englishman myself
As a welsh rugby fan I have to say what a brilliant show with Ellis Genge he's earned his place at the top table and good luck to him in the rest of his career.
That was superb. Played rugby in Bristol when Genge was playing at Knowle and have followed his career ever since but can't believe how much I learned about him from that interview
Great show thanks. Your guest clearly a mans man. We had a working class teenage Englishman in our country once who somehow had a little bit of experience with Rugby, which wasn't the norm for someone from his side of town, so he said. His name was John Gallagher! He ended up being an All Black and a very good one, won a RWC, player of the year etc, etc. (incidently, he ended his semi-pro (if you cld even call it semi-pro) rugby career for a great big fat Leeds Rugby League cheque. He was a delightful man, it was the late 80s, NZ was sorry to see him go. What I'm getting around to saying is.........Uh oh, take the pomp out of English Rugby and make it something for all walks of life???, ---- how the hell are our All Blacks and the Springboks going to continue to dominate the world then??!! 😋😋😋 But seriously though, I sure hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime!
It all stems from the establishment the class issue. Rugby league is ostracised in this country because union is the rich man’s game. Look at some of the biggest names in union: farrells, fords, Robinson, folau, sailor, Edwards they’ve all come from working class league backgrounds
I'm from the North and from a very rugby league town but I've always loved union more, plus league took its fair share of union players back in the day, offiah, Davies, quinnell etc etc, but I prefer nrl league to our british game
Class problem 😂😂😂 look at the way footballers act and look how rugby players act on the field i think class shines through with rugby players when your brought up in the correct manor it shows
Class problem?...maybe in certain parts of the country but certainly not from my part of the world, Gloucester. Here private and public schools play rugby however football is taking over. I would say without grammar and private schools continuing their traditions of playing rugby the minority sport would be even more of a minority game unfortunately. Rugby can still offer and give great foundations for people
Great episode! EG has always been a firm favourite in our house- rugby watching/playing family and a son with dyspraxia it’s fantastic to see such a down to earth guy, fantastic ambassador for the sport! Showing the kids nothing is impossible ❤
Class is a NH and AUSTRALIA thing, NZ we have everyone,we even share between code's,/union and league, although the league code still hold some sort of attitude towards union,like its a us and them,need to get over it,union have
Brilliant, honest,.open. one of the best interviews I have watched on sport, let alone Rugby. Only thing I might have added is Zammit going to NFL as a question.
Excellent episode! I've come to realise over the years that sportsmen and people in general in the lime light, whether that be sports or showbiz, the people I enjoy and entertain the most are truely being themselves and Ellis Genge truely comes across like that - basically, This is me no excuses, unlike the majority of tosspots who hide behind somesort of facade and present some insipid charachter.
Maybe the reason they do that is that because of the idiots in the media and on social media who then take things you say and distort it. Tenge is currently getting away with it but watch this space.
great interview and insights - thanks very much. I do think that Ellis needs to understand that sometimes the criticism is actually well founded and deserved about England's playing style and is not a criticism of the players. It is obviously aimed at the coaches. Of course we don't see how hard they are working and we can only judge what we see on the pitch. When that is the RWC warm up games and recent matches like Scotland then of course the fans are unhappy. We have been crying out for England to add an attacking edge for ages and to try and be more creative and score tries. Then we hear that the players instigated this, and fair play to Borthwick for listening to this, post the Scotland match and lo and behold we see great performances against Ireland and France. It ain't rocket science!
Don’t say fair well borthwick like the players had some sort of intervention and he was persuaded 😭😭 those performances don’t come from a week or two of attack training, they would have been working on playing like that since at least the start of the 6 nations. Go listen to borthwick’s interview with the good the bad the rugby, he came in as England coach with less than a year’s prep for a World Cup, didn’t get all the coaching staff till just before the World Cup, had loads of negativity, red cards left right and centre and he still got 1 scrum penalty away from a World Cup final. And ne’s made further improvements to the coaching team since that World Cup now there’s more time and opportunity. He did incredibly at Japan, England, Leicester and now back at England as a head role, let’s give him a cycle to see what he can really build. Andy Farrell and Rassie and galthie didn’t build those teams in 1 year