🎲 Dice Control Deep Dive - #7 - My Toss: "The Chopper" 

That's why I love you, George! At the end of the day, it's 1000% about having a toss you love, that's comfortable to you, and that you are able to diagnose based on your own experience with it. For me, this has all the elements of things that I can actually control and I don't have any discomfort with it like the other throws. So there it is. ... and I do think the physics of keeping everything in the same plane, and going in the same direction helps a lot with reducing the factors that cause explosions. But again, there's no physicist backing me up, that's just what I see.

It's a bear to learn but for me, it's super comfortable on the shoulder.

Yes he is!!

I get the same general feedback from my dice, but it's less about the implode/explode that you would see. Mine is all about the overspin after contact. I can pretty easily see that either my bottom or top die is behaving properly and I can adjust the spin rates/angles to bring them both in to where I can be assured of what's going on. And if I'm off on one of the die consistently, then just like with the Parr style toss, it's an adjustment in the set that dials it in.

Absolutely. Comfort is king.

Was just talking about this with some other players the other day. I am still learning so forgive me if I don't explain this correctly. As a right handed thrower, it seems the preferred position is SL1 with a backhand lob as taught by the Dominator, etc. Standing parallel with the table, etc. But I find that I prefer SR1 with me standing perpendicular to the table and facing the stickman. Just seems more comfy on the throw. And I use an "all sevens" set in the CO and the hardways set (hard eight up, hard four facing me) once a point has been established. And that's it. Now just need to build a practice rig at home.

You've pretty much captured what I'm going for here.

That's fantastic. Great skill AND discipline. I'd like to think that if I could string together rolls like that in a single session I'd be able to fight the urge to go for the kill.

Coming soon! I have lots to say on this toss!

Thank you, sir!

I'm just not there on the hopping strategies yet (yet). My assertions on the 1's and 6's are very much "what I see" not "what I've documented" so putting bets behind that is not a thing I'm ready for just yet, but I can absolutely see the value play there.

I created that method of play and put it up on RU-vid back in 2015. It's part of my Super 7 Hop system and is a direct path to gaining multiple wins..

@@TheGamingProLV yeah Leo,When I ever make it to Vegas,We need to get together and playI think it would be a profitable connection 🎲 🎲

The physics of this toss make so much sense. It's really hard to pull it off, but when it works, you can really see it, and I've put out some great slow motion that shows it.

It's just such a comfortable throw for me to make. No pain, very natural motion, and you don't have to get the dice super perfect in your grip like the other throws. The less I have to think about and the more natural it is, the better it seems to go for me. And like I said, it let's me dial back from a '10' all of the hard things you have to get right down below a '5' and I'll take my chances!

I want to make sure that I clarify the way I said that ... I cant guarantee that a 6 or a 1 will remain up 85% of the time. I can guarantee that 85% of the time one of those will be up (especially on the bottom die) after they come off the back wall and re-impact the table. After that, when they hit the table, if the spin is still tight, that's when they stay, but more often than not, that's when they skitter around and randomize. It's cool to keep the same number on top through 3 impacts. Unfortunately, there's generally 5 or 6 impacts before they come to rest! But I do see so many 1's when I throw, it's something to look at for sure.

Absolutely. For me, this is the simplest toss I've ever done. It's actually super hard, but for some reason, it's very natural for me.

@@ProCraps is the dice tracker you have available for use?

@@krappinkamper7222 I am curious as well. I just started recording my practices. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B4GCzNIAZ0E.html

The average is 6 rolls between 7's and 8.5 rolls total per shooter (which accounts for come out winners). The real metric to look at as a DI is BSR, which is the average number of box numbers you throw while the puck is on (in other words, payable rolls). That's really all I care about unless I'm working on a strat that has bets active on the come out. A DI's job isn't to necessarily lengthen rolls, although it's nice ... but to make himself more money. I'd be tickled pink if I threw 6 rolls every time and it was point,box,box,box,box,box,seven. I'd retire on that. That's the goal, in my view.

I'm going to try and figure out how to do that. I'm ok at video production, but multiple cameras (esp with slow motion) are super hard to pull off!

@@ProCraps use OBS Studio and you can switch between different cameras live.

It’s not the software…it’s quality cameras and angles with my room configuration

I'm a huge fan of most of Waylon's strategies. Trouble is that I don't really have the bankroll that it takes to do them justice at a live table. Until you can use your bankroll as an actual weapon, you shouldn't play in ways that require it. So I practice them, but for later. LMK how the chopper works out for with the different "spin" on it that I do.

I have some friends that do the knuckle toss effectively, but I've not had luck with it. You really need the rotation of the dice to assert energy and directional control. If they don't spin, or spin too slowly, you get way too random even on a light throw. Try dropping them from 6" off the table and then try it again with just a small bit of spin (flick them just a bit) and watch the difference

So much of this is feel and comfort. I will argue pretty hard that the physics of the chopper style throw are better than the physics of the more traditional backspin type of throw. That said, the results of the traditional throws seem to be more consistently better by all you guys, so who am I to argue. I'm just going off what I see on the slow motion.

Glad you enjoyed! Yes, I grip down the edges, with the thumb and middle finger.

By all means, share it.

Thank you, sir!

That's exactly what I do ... stack the 1's on top and it generates tons of combinations featuring the 1/6 so we're in the horn a lot. It's either 1-1/1-2 or 6-5/6-6 ... with misses being in the box. It's doing pretty well for me, even though I'm still a novice with it.

Be patient with it. It takes a long time to get comfortable and consistent with it. Definitely watch Cashiers Cage's channel, as he goes into it pretty deep every day

I’m not sure

Depends on what you want to learn, really. Nobody actively teaches the Chopper throw, but there's a few channels that you can watch where guys like me are throwing it. As for the other tosses, go with someone reputable like Howard, Dice Coach, or Axis

People asked how I throw, so here it is ... like I say in the video, it's all random at the end. This is my way of feeling comfortable and in the zone while I'm playing. Keeps my mind right and I like being consistent. Same with my golf swing. If I happen to get a great result, I'm totally going to take credit for it, though!

@@ProCraps no problem with you,,,,,,enough with g from cy '' axis/rotation'' bull sh#t.............guy gets accolades for sheer nonsense from multiple non thinkers '''''''''''''''''i dont care about perfect axis --when the die hit the points made of hard rubber then bounce additional 24 times before they come to rest all axis rotationtalk mute points mean zilch .........hey people..lets get real ...............THINK g

​@@drdontpassone8164 I'm not a huge believer in the axis stuff. I'm all about being in control of what I can do, which is quite a lot of things, but in the grand scheme of things, very little on the results. I really just hope that I can make that car crash survivable more often than not!

@@ProCraps when you mention in your vids a certain area of the points ''to avoid'' when throwing i get a little worried.........ggggggggggggg just teasing '''''''''''ps---------------------- keep up the great vids.... have an intervention with g from cypress man too.' i'll help ya........ chuckle chuckle

There's not really a "primary" hit with this kind of throw. Remember that they are clearly spinning horizontally, so while I "know" that the 6's will be on the bottom, I have no idea what's on the sides as they spin to a rest. What you kinda hope for here is that you get one die to sit still (and be a 1) and the other one only has to not tumble over exactly twice to become that 6-1. Otherwise, you've dodged it. And frankly, so long as both die roll over at different speeds, you'll never get a 7 because of where the 1's are. When you run into trouble here is a bad landing. If they get all cattywampus on you, forget it. Just say a quick prayer! So, I don't typically expect a great pocket of box numbers or primary face hits, I mainly expect to dodge big red a little bit more easily. I think this is why my roll length is about an 8-10 average.

@@ProCraps thanks, noted. I guess it’s not possible to enter throws into Bonetracker when using the Chopper.

@@dand.2082 I've never tried it, but it would be extremely interesting.

Wow! No disrespect, but John is wrong. The top & bottom numbers of your dice sets are ALWAYS the Axis that the dice rotate around horizontally. I assumed that all Chopper viewers of my channel knew THAT as well ……as I explained it in my videos. Listen…. Dice bounce, flip, flop, yaw, & everything else ….no matter HOW SKILLED the shooter! That’s a FACT!!! Meaning, contrary to popular belief…. Keeping the top number of either die from flipping over AINT happening whether you land them far from the backwall, close to the backwall, or on the moon. 😝 There’s this thing called “ Confirmation bias”, & Practiced Shooters are notorious when it boils down to this so-called “ Influence “ thingy. Most tosses ARE random, & this is why I say that tossing PRIMARY hits is what TRULY separates the men from the boys. Even though it’s darn near impossible, I EXPECT a primary hit every time that i toss the dice. Once again… the key word is “ EXPECT ”! 🤣 THE numbers between the top & bottom dice are the FACE numbers. In other words the numbers in your tossing plane! Each & EVERY time that your dice make initial table contact…. You are landing on the AXIS of any/all dice sets that you are using! That is what make the toss so very difficult to toss long rolls. If a skilled shooter was on a smooth, slick surface, they could keep the top numbers ( Axis) from flipping over. However, we’re talking about razor sharp Casino dice being tossed on Casino surfaces. Rounded dice ( Monopoly type dice without sharp edges being tossed on a smooth, slick surface is the IDEAL conditions for the top numbers maintaining facial integrity…. NOT Casino Craps . I have viewed THOUSANDS of slow motion videos to know what is, & what’s NOT possible tossing the Chopper on Modern day Casino Craps tables! Also, here’s more information for you….. Horizontal spin transitions into forward spin on bouncy surfaces, & THATS a FACT! I do NOT claim to be a Dice Influencer, but a Thorough, Rock-solid investigator of the Chopper?………I AM!!!!! 🎲🎲 Married!!!

​@@cashierscage I think we're saying the same thing, Cage but I'm using slightly different wording. Our dice are clearly flying and landing on the spinning horizontal axis. We know what's going to be on top and bottom on that first hit. So yes, the best thing about the chopper toss is that we KNOW the axis is going to stay true generally through at least 1, likely 2 of the collisions. When I say there's "no axis" or the primary face hits, what I'm referring to is what the PARR folks talk about with their on-axis hits. The chopper as you know doesn't roll that way, so there's not an expectation that you can work on a die imploding or exploding and trying to keep the primary face hits like those folks work on all the time. Our terminology is pretty different. I hope that clarifies my wording there.

My average from picking up the dice to 7 out is about 9. But really what I'm looking for is a "Consistent 7" where I can get an actual 7 rolls every time between 7's. That becomes something I can craft an actual betting strategy around.

Just joking with yah ! Love yah brother

You crack me up. Like I said in the video, I throw it way different than Cage does. I feel more comfortable with higher spin and a higher angle.

Don’t mind Waylon, John. He’s simply upset because I commented that he was flinging the dice, standing two feet away from the backwall with a thousand different names for all of those negative expectation betting strategies that are LONG TERM losers UNLESS some form of Controlled Tossing is imparted. Hmmmmm…. I wonder if Dominator, Frank Scoblete, Howard, Steady Eddy ( Roll 2win), Jerry Stickman, & others would fling dice standing two feet away from the backwall INSTEAD of showcasing their Controlled Tossing skills? 🤣😝 Oh…. did I mention that Waylon CLAIMS to be a Dice Influencer!! 🤪🤣 I guess I’m missing something here. Ya think that MAYBE I should toss a little lower so that I can find that Rat under the table? I didn’t know that Dice Influencers exist. I’ve only witnessed Controlled Shooters!!! 🎲🎲 Married!! Excellent video, John.

🤣🤣🤣

@@cashierscage I have never ever heard Waylon say he was a DI…

I do that on most of my morning shows and practice runs.

@@ProCraps : thanks

The PARR toss is predicated on the physics of the dice moving forward and spinning backwards, creating the force to slow them down in first impact. But the result of it is that they nearly always reverse direction after that hit (or go sideways) because of the nature of physics itself. Impossible to have them retain that same backwards spin after first impact. I don't think a lot of people have studied that part of the PARR toss closely enough. The better shooters know and account for the change in rotation. I really really like the bowling style shot, where the direction of the spin matches the direction of the flight and you can actually depend on that into the wall. But stopping them becomes more difficult.

@@ProCraps Right. Again, the LZ is of primary importance if yr. going to use the backspin. If the backspinning dice hit the layout short..you're lost. One bounce is all you get. The dice hit the wall, drop. As to going sideways..every type of shot will do that now and then. Which is also why the PARR group suggested the hardways set. With the hardways set only one die has to be on axis and you will never hit a seven. The toughest set for on axis shooters is actually the 3V. I have used the 3V playing my angry don'ts game at the Paris in Vegas when I got heat for not hitting the wall hard enough. Ok..If that's what you want..Just $30 DP, lay odds, throw for the seven over and over. I found that the 3V slammed does just great.

It takes a lot of practice. But you've hit on it. For me, it's 100% about comfort. I don't know if I'm doing any good for real, but I do like how they feel coming out of my hands.

Maybe you should take a class from one of the Originators of the helicopter toss to help you perfect it. There are two diff techniques I teach… the low profile and high profile toss. Both used to have different outcomes.

@@vdccdc1583 It's a date!

Not necessarily. Remember we have full horizontal rotation here, so there's no "axis" like you normally think of it. What you're hoping for is that one die basically stays put and the other one doesn't roll over twice (a 1-6). Anything else and you're good. This is not about sniping numbers, it's about 7 avoidance. From a throwers perspective, because it is a natural way to grip and throw, I believe you have a better chance to get into a good, repeatable groove with it

That would be silly. The entire point of “getting good” at tossing is to keep the dice longer and make more numbers, more points and more dollars. Targeting the seven gives you a single win and takes the dice from you. So, on its face the notion of 7 sniping is nonsense except for the come out 7s.

How could I forget Jacklyn Smith? My original hall pass ;)

No, it was the 4-2 / 5-6 set that like. On the ends that's a 1 and a 4 showing up.

The people that wrote the books on this stuff are all selling their way of doing it ... and most of them use the books as way to sell their dice throwing classes or seminars. There's a few decent ones out there, but buyer beware. Someday, I may put an objective book together that breaks everything down, agenda-free.

All day. In fact, 4 is really all you need on the regular. Everything else is butter on the roll.

I'm going to start filming more live practices. Lots of people asking for that.

I went to Vegas after the first one, so I only just went back to my local a couple of times this past weekend. I went 2 for 2, so that's 3 for 3 overall. $127 in cheques here waiting for the next visit. I'm just going to keep bringing those cheques back and forth each visit so i keep that separate from my regular bankroll.

Live in Vegas, started @ $64 at my local casino, Red Rock, am currently up to $140. Playing bubble craps, one & done. Not sure how far I will take it. 😏

@@fredtheuberdriver Here's what you can do ... once you get it to $320 or so, where your one hit is $70, pocket that one, so you're all paid for. Then shoot the moon with it. One hit a day or one hit per visit. It's stupidly fun.

Great idea, only I think I will take the original $64, once I hit $320 and start a second $64 YOLO challenge, if your gonna go for 1 shot, why not 2 challenges @ once???????

@@fredtheuberdriver I actually have started $64 YOLO's at 3 different local casinos ;)

Glad you enjoyed it

Going to use the "chopper" this weekend in central city, co. Thanks for posting, great dice throw. Cant wait to see how it goes

@@freders1514 practice practice…it’s definitely not for the feint of heart!

@@freders1514 Make sure and let me know how it went.

@@ProCraps Hey John, I experimented with the chopper this past weekend in blackhawk, co. The Monarch casino. Had a great night. Cashed in 2500. Wish I could say it was my throw. Happened to be involved on 2 completely random shooters that went for a long time, back to back. It was awesome. I had quite a few avg throws. A few pts hit and good numbers but nothing spectacular. Im a 3 finger traditional dice shooter. I like the physics behind the Chopper. Definitely used it a bit but 1st time using it. It was a little unfamiliar and hard to get my landing zone dialed in. I was focusing on the finger snap and spin. Definitely needs practice and time. I could tell when the throw was good cause 1 dice stayed on the top set and close to wall. When it was off they would hit the wall and go 45 degrees to opposite directions. Wish i had a good set up to practice. Cant really practice in the heat of action. I did practice grabbing the dice and setting up chopper style before we got there. Cool throw, one guy asked me about how I was throwing it. It didn't produce any real long rolls but again like the science behind it. I went back to my go to dice set and throw. Going to use the chopper every time I go and hopefully it gets refined over time. When my normal throw was on it did rather well. 5 to 7 numbers hit. I would see them spin at the same rate and hit the lower potion on the pyramids and stick. Just like golf as you mention. The feel, the spin and landing all fall into place. When I hit chips or throw too far into the wall I would 7 out. They take the Vig up front in Co. Thanks for the info and great videos. Ill keep ya posted.

Nobody is that good. But I'm practicing to get to that mythical place where I can reliably get 3-5 scores every time I roll.

I think I'm just past the middle point. If you get too low, then the top die kinda runs into your inner finger and that's a disaster waiting to happen.

Thanks 👍 It's a hard one to explain.

@@ProCraps Dice control in general is hard to explain and understand. You’re getting closer though. Keep practicing and studying it. You ask “is it real” ? My answer to that is if you can’t do it it’s not and if you can it is. All the best John

Ha. No debate necessary. It's all about comfort level, not the mechanics of the throw.

@@ProCraps just trying to stir the pot! Haha

It’s all in how you hit them. Low and slow off the bumper makes a big difference. And the sideways spin does a lot. Check out the slow motion I did on CGTV that breaks it down. You’ll see a few in there that demonstrate this principle. Not at all perfect. And barely repeatable … but possible. And that’s all that matters.

lots of Bouncy tables now too@@ProCraps

I only believe in Demos done in a live Casino recorder game with real money in a real Casino environment with no edits on a full session. Do you have any of those?@@ProCraps