I have seen the video of F Class John that shows him looking for a "node". Look for shots that are tight through 3 settings and run it in the middle. That way your rifle doesn't drop out of tune with some unforseen change while in a competition and shooting many rounds at a sitting. Very nice grouping that rifle is a shooter!
As far as the math works out those are not statistically different. Think about it in terms of mean radius. The mean radius(average distance from center of the group) is actually slightly smaller on the first group(~0.139" vs 0.154"). When you're using extreme spread in this case you're really only using the difference of one single shot out of twenty to decide that one is better than the other. Accuracy is always a range of sizes since you would never expect to shoot consecutive groups and have them be the same size. If I asked if you would you be surprised if the next ten shot group from setting zero would be ~0.4" or the next group from 5 would be ~0.54" it seems quite reasonable because the variability in 10 shots groups is still quite large. The fact that it's the first shot you took is also worth noticing. I typically take 2 warm up shots on a clean/cold barrel to make sure I've eliminates any contaminants in the barrel. Typically 1 is enough but I've definitely observed speed/poi differences on the second as well on occasion. I was able to use software to stack the shots and compare POI/MEAN RADIUS and there is a tiny shift between groups in only the vertical plane of about 0.1". I'm not sure that's notable. As an aside you've got yourself a 20 shot group at about 0.55" size there which is quite nice!
Agreed. There is a book called Statistical Measures of Accuracy for Riflemen and Missile Engineers that explains why extreme spread is just about the least efficient possible measure of precision possible and why mean radius is far more useful a metric.
True but Hornady said take all your groups and add them together to get your mean Radius using the same aim point (the dot) and seeing where mean aim point is for all groups compared to same aim point and average it out, also average out all groups. No one is expected to shoot 20-30 or more consecutive shots within a few minutes. You could with heavy target barrel, but that's it. Sporter barrel would get too hot. But five, 5 shot groups would get you 25 or three 10 shot groups would get you 30. That is how Hornady said to do it on the end of the second podcast after the "Groups are too small," but in the podcast, "Your Groups are still too small." Hope that helps people understand it.
@@rosshill2565 Bryan Litz, the ballistician at Berger said that their testing showed that tuner brakes made no statistically significant difference in precision. I tend to believe him because more “testing” on the part of the consumer increases their sales.
@michaelhill6451 Jayden Quinlan the Ballistisin at Hornady, and Miles head engineer at Hornady both said their Testting said the same thing about Tuners as Bryan Litz I was talking about sample size and mean radius and how to use multiple groups from one load in any number of shot strings using Hornady Apps Group Analysis. Yes, your 10 shot string or 5 or even 3 on hunting rifle can be put on Group Analyis and Mean Radius and Mean aim point (center of group) difference from aiming point (dot on target) can be used doing average Mean Radius and Mean group Center (Aim point). Jayden Quinlan and Seth talk about how to use it, which is a way to get your 20-30 or more shot total and then make an informed decision on groups. You can go to 50 total shots. After that, the gain in group size knowledge is very small. I saw Bryan Litz podcast with Erik Cortina and how he shot out barrels doing same thing Hornady did with both Group Sizes and Tuners at different times but using the same Mean Radius and Group Size data to quantify results.
I get what Hornady and Brian Litz think about larger samples. But I think every 3 shot group counts towards a large sample size. I stop at 2 shots if the group is larger than what I will settle for. I shoot fewer shots at every number on my EC tuner. And I look for three numbers in a row that shoots the best average. One number that is the tightest group with poor results on the number before and after might be worth retesting at different environments. In competition it's usually the guy that doesn't shoot a bad group that wins, not necessarily the smallest group. Testing is great, but at some point you need to save your barrel.
Great shooting by both the rifle and refleman shooting it! I kept saying to myself for you, don't f'- it up on shot #5. Thats a fantastic shooting rifle.
Fascinating. So a tuner break can even improve a very optimized load in a very accurate rifle (and shooter). What would it do in a more ordinary rifle shooting factory ammunition is the real question.
From my understanding, not much. There's too much inconsistency in the other variables with factory ammunition and factory rifles. Could it help? Sure. Is the difference likely to be large? No
I use a circle drawing template to draw a circle that my target dot will fill up at 100yds. I have found that a precise point of aim helps me shoot smaller groups. Really depends on your retical. Really enjoy your videos.
I’d be really interested in seeing 5 shot groups of tuner settings 4,5,6. Maybe 5 is almost there but up or down a little you could squeeze into a 3/8 moa shot group.
You need to test by shooting a group with no tuner as a baseline. This is only showing the differences between the two tuner settings you have selected. Also as others have said you shouldn't look for a good group bracketed by bad groups but look for a flat spot where there are consecutive decent groups. When you find that you fine tune to find the sweet spot even when environmentals vary. That does mean more shooting but hey its what were here for aint it.
I currently have the NextGen tuner brake on a 300WM and found a couple different accuracy nodes that worked really well. In your experience, how repeatable have these tuners been with taken them off/on for cleaning, different conditions day to day, lot# to lot# ammo variations?
There's a good example why to use larger sample sizes. At the moment, with 10 per tuner setting, the groups are basically the same accept for the one shot on the left target which, is more than likely just normal dispersion albeit possibly on the outer fringes of that rifles systems dispersion cone. I suspect that if you keep shooting, the right side target would see a fringe dispersion or two as well which, is what I get all the time shooting 4 x 10 shot groups as a test of the load. Moving the tuner such a tiny amount in terms of the change in length would not or really could not be much if any influence at all.
I have tested the ec tuner on my 300 prc with 25 shot groups, 3 shots on each setting and got the best 2. Then 25 of both those settings and the results ended up identical. Took off the tuner and shot 25 with no tuner and the results were within 2%. So yeah I dont think the tuner does anything
The second group at 0 shot better than the second group at 5 and vise versa for the first groups. I don't think either setting is in a node and shooting any better than without a tuner..
sample size should make a difference in your conclusion, though. in this instance you should be using the results from 10 shots, not 5 shots to do that.
