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@@Wumbology378 yeah but thats only because he's in all the high profile fights which made his mistakes more apparent, he's definitely one of the best in the business overall.
It’s impressive that most refs can see so much in such a small amount of time. People like to point to the bad calls but there are many refs doing their best and making good calls
I'm ok with bad calls that er on the side of caution too. As a fan from the "dark ages, human cock fighting" era it's awesome we get top shelf fights televised almost every weekend. I'd hate for a late stoppage or bad doctor's call to send the sport back to the 90's and have mom's pulling their kids out of BJJ schools.
@@SuicideVanthat's a really good additional point, being ok with "bad" stoppages that erred on the side of caution. MMA refereeing is unique because they have a completely singular, unique view of the action. It's very common for me to have to rewind 2-3 times just to actually see the KO strike, usually when it's dirty boxing, in the pocket exchanges where the strike is an extremely short and quick one. My point is from the angles Fights are filmed from it is very easy to miss quite a bit of the little things that go on during a fight. Sure, we get the benefit of replay after the fact, but the refs are basically the third dance partner in these bouts.
I think, at least me, judge the refs based on how often they make bad calls. Everyone’s human but if they often make bad calls compared to good ones then I say criticism is deserved
Honestly, that final stop by Herb Dean, where he noticed the arm being broke, just says to me that even if he fades with old age, he should go down as one of the best refs ever. Noticing something that no one else, not even the fighter or the doc noticed, until the replay, just goes to show how good the man was and still can be. Man gets a pass for some bad calls because when he's at his best, the man notices all the little things.
@@sldarwin5615 These are the same f-ing people who will argue with you for hours that Elon Musk isn't a genius or that Alexander the Great wasn't a great leader both can be fed all the information in the world and would refuse to acknowledge them.
As a teen I remember got knocked out when a guy assaulted me with a complete surprise sucker punch. I thought I just fell and jumped back up straight away, ready to defend myself, no problem. But I had been completely out of it for like 15 seconds. Got knocked around a bit more on the ground and a few friends stepped in to push him away and get me up. To this day I remember it as just a fall and a bounce back. If it was a match, I would've protested against a ref stopping it. Getting knocked out is no joke
When you regain consciousness your brain tries to fill in the gap and it'll completely fabricate a story to do so. The brain doesn't like being hard reset at all. It needs an explanation as to how you went from the ground to back a few feet standing. It's wild how much the brain can just make up on its own.
The best part about the Sylvia v Mir stoppage was when you can hear Herb saying "oh sh*t." right after the arm break when he rushes in. Classic. God bless all yall!
Both guys won that night. Timmy got the "Bad Ass" of the Year award for sure. Dude is Nuts cause he would have known his arm just got snapped and went bonkers it was stopped. And it wasn't a fake bonkers.
As frustrating as it can be sometimes, I try not to fault a referee for stopping a fight what seems like too early. I tend to be much harder on refs who let things go on for too long.
Yeah I definitely agree. I’d rather a fight get stopped a few seconds short and be bummed, then have a guy get beaten to death because a ref didn’t call it in time
better to stop it early and have people pissed they lost their bets, than have it go on too long and end up with a fighter who is dead or injured to the point of never fighting again
Yeah, I’ve seen dudes go limp in a ground and pound and the ref doesn’t call it for like five or six seconds. It’s like, dude, those few seconds can be the difference between a mild concussion and having to drink your meals through a straw the rest of your life.
People have a hard time realizing someone coming back to consciousness a stoppage really quickly is often a sign of a good stoppage. At that point the ref is not declaring a winner, he's preventing further damage. And the fact that the fighter gets to their feet quickly is a job well done
My only problem with that is how we've seen refs continue fights where one fighter miraculously comes back after taking so much damage but that is understandably rare
@@GEEZYEA777 very true. The last thing I'm saying it's that it's an easy call, because it's not, and some refs make horrible mistakes to both sides, but still, it's good that their main focus is protecting this fighter's lives and careers
The "Problem" of early calls is based in the fact that the ref is the only person in the building with the goal of protecting the fighters, not letting them fight It seems dumb but with early, late and perfect calls looking super similar it's amazing how great the officiating is in the cage
The ref is also the person with the absolute best view of the fight, even the fighters aren't as aware of what's happening as the ref is. But of course a half drunk crowd watching from 30+ feet away always think they are right.
@@s4tchm0j0n3s Actually you have a better view on tv than you have live because usually you just end up staring at a screen anyway, just from further away with a screeming crowd around you. The live experience isnt about the view, its about the atmosphere.
Why would a ref put it on the fighter to call the fight over instead of just calling the fight over? Why ask one fighter a question and disadvantage him?
@masonmayer7984 it's a verbal submission in this case, which is 100% valid. The man ate a barrage of punches, it wasn't going to get any better, so he checked for verbal sub first to give a fighter a chance to continue, then the ref would interviene himself. I guess, not an expert
Idk why he’s considered the best, I’ve watched thousands of fights, but I’ve seen him make mistakes. Jason herzog has ever messed up from what I’ve seen
@@phoomphgaming5538 mate you know the amount of fights they ref? of course at some point you're goinng to cock it up a few times, you cant tell me that you've done something for so long and not made a mistake, we're all human
@@phoomphgaming5538jason herzog is my favorite ref, but he has definitely messed up. i think he let the glover teixiera vs anthony smith fight go on for like 6 minutes longer than it should have
Herb is such a cool guy. My friend and I caught him walking to a bar after a fight and he invited us to join him, I'll never forget it! The guy loves what he does and he does it well!
This is really good that you've done this. Crowds need to admit that we don't see what the refs see more often (no, they don't always get it right, but they're still generally in a better position than us). And going back afterwards and admitting when we're wrong is a skill we all need to practice more. And not just in watching fights, but every aspect of life
Love this video! Being a ref is one of those jobs where if you do your job perfectly you get no credit, but the slightest mistake or missed call and they’re crucified and called out for it for the rest of their careers (sometimes deservingly so given the nature of the business). But it’s still nice to see them get the flowers they deserve every once and a while!
Referees get their credit for doing their job well constantly, on air, from the commentators. The community pays attention to all the referees and their actions, being a constant talking point in video essays and comment sections. Top comment on this video is crediting Herb Dean as a legend with balanced comments talking about him allowing cheating in high profile fights.
i genuinely don't understand how anyone could've thought the henderson vs. fedor stoppage was early. emelianenko was *clearly* out cold for at least 3 seconds
Definitely the end of an era seeing him going on a 3 fight-losing streak. I think that was an understandably tough thing for a lot of people to accept. But yeah, I agree with you, doesn't mean the ref needed to give him a needless amount of chances to survive.
In defense of the fighters protesting; when you're tired and get rocked but recover quickly, it just feels like a microsecond. These judges are the reason people have better outcomes statistically after fights. Great video.
Herb Dean and Big John are two legends in MMA. The best refs that have been in MMA their understanding of the fight game and ability to make split second decisions that protect fighters health but also allow a fight to continue when necessary is such an under appreciated skill. Those two have a complete mastery of that ability.
This is what gets me about the hate the refs get. Look at how many tough calls Herb Dean got right. Plus the calls that were just normally correct. Yet I still see people call him "the worst ref" because he made some wrong calls or just calls people didn't agree with. It's a thankless job and I'm glad you are trying to balance things out a bit.
I mean, both things can be true. Herb WAS a great ref- one of the best in the sport- and I think anybody who’s been watching long enough would acknowledge that. But at the same time, we can acknowledge that in recent years his performance has been starting to slip and errors have been becoming more frequent
@@alugificatoryeah but if all the bad refs got fired and he’s still here and had some insane calls just find it odd that it doesn’t show people how talented he really is everyone makes mistake but to say he isn’t great would be insane
I've always heard fighters say that Herb Dean is the best in the business I'm glad he's getting some recognition here, MMA officiating can be a thank-less job
I distinctly remember seeing Tim's arm snap just before herb stopped it and was shocked by seemingly no one else catching real time. I was shocked everyone was so upset when it was very clear to me. Thankfully the replay cleared it up
The most shocking thing to me is that his arm broke and and HE challenged the stoppage. I know adrenaline can numb pain, but there's no way he didn't feel that lol.
@@yewtewbstew547I guess he didn't. I see absolutely no reason why someone would try to continue fighting with a broken arm; you clearly can't win anyway, why risk getting even more injured?
Dude, this was a legitimately awesome vid! It was really great research and highlighting the good calls from refs… some I definitely hadn’t seen. Thank you for clearing some of these up and giving one back to the refs!
Why? I still remember yamasaki to be an god awful referee, his decisions as a ref were questionable because he didn't stop fights not because he stepped in too early or am I mixing up shit now?
Askren V Lawler was a good stoppage. Dean got shit for it but it took everyone multiple replays to figure out what was going on. He considered injury to the spine as well as consciousness. The choke wasn't getting any looser and not being able to defend yourself is a valid reason to stop.
I think most people just thought the whole situation was weird.. Which it was. If you don't stop the fight seeing an arm go limp you're not only a bad ref, but a dangerous one too
It was a fantastic stoppage. Before a fight you're told if you're in a chokehold, if you're still conscious make sure it's known to the referee. Lawlers arm went limp in an extremely dangerous choke, I believe that Lawler was out, and regained consciousness immediately, just like in No.10 on the list.
@@TheSquad4life At the time, I just thought it was Lawler being a good sport even when he clearly disagreed with the stoppage. And then the replay showed Herb checked his arm and it was limp. A good call when a lot of us were starting to lose faith in Herb's calls.
That front kick to the ribs is another example of how deadly that kick can be to the body, or face. I'm surprised more people don't use it. The only fighter I can think of that used it a lot in his prime was Mcgregor. Vitor Belfort, Randy Couture, and more recently Tony Ferguson will tell you just how effective it was...to their faces.
Thanks for taking the time to put this together man, really gives a fresh perspective & insight as to both how challenging it can be to ref, and how Perspective can change everything. Awesome to see some of these fights again with this breadown, almost nostalgic, time is just hauling-ass right now. Great time to be an MMA fan, LoL. Thanks again for posting, great vid!
Jason Herzog is the most underrated ref in the sport bar none. Always thought he was a great ref. He watches the action intently with 100% concentration always. Communication is excellent, and he gives the fighters enough space to move. I was a ref back in the early-mid 2000s where we weren't trained at all. Made a couple of mistakes myself, but I had the benefit of not having TV replays or thousands of fans screaming. It's a damn hard job. It's different now, but back then every single ref was a fighter, including myself. We used to balance safety with spectacle, honestly, with the emphasis on safety of course. I refereed quite a few fights where the guys ended up fighting in the UFC with one of them joining the Hall of Fame. I remember refereeing a show (we used to ref full shows on our own, 10 - 15 fights per show sometimes) where there were I think 10 fights lined up and each one was over within the first minute. Promoter (former UFC fighter who I won't name) was shitting himself because obviously you book the venue for a set time and there were a couple of hundred casual fans there expecting a show. There was a pro-wrestling exhibition at the midway point, and the promoter set up a few impromptu fights that weren't scheduled (used to happen all the time, people volunteering from the crowd) and one of the wrestlers volunteered. When the fight started it was clear he'd never been hit before and was turning his back and running. I had to warn him a couple of times, and ended calling the fight off for evasion after only a couple of minutes. The promoter was not happy at all, and neither were some of the fans, and I remember thinking "Shit this could go badly for me". But I was relieved when the fans on the whole started cheering for a good stoppage and quite a few approached me after the event to say the same. No ref wants fighters getting hurt, and it was an awkward position for me to be in because I knew the show suffered for it, but you can only work with what you have in front of you.
@@kimisu9870 I think he used to be more underrated than he is now because for a long time he wasn't reffing ufc fights so a lot of fans didn't even know about him
You know RDA is a beast because he knocked out a notoriously hard to knock out dude in Ben Henderson. I remember watching that live and being so surprised. Then he went on to wipe the floor with Pettis after his Wheaties promotion. Even when RDA lost his title to Alvarez, he still managed to stay on his feet despite taking heavy shots. Respect to RDA. A real BMF.
During my late teens I got knocked out so hard during a match that I can't remember anything between standing in front of my opponent and getting walked out of the hall by one of my partners. The first thing I do remember is walking towards the exit with my buddy holding me at the wrist and at the neck and I was like, "Wait a second. Why the hell are we leaving, I have a match to fight!" and he was like, "Dude, I've told you three times already and I'm telling you another time: You were lights out dead on the mat." Fifteen years later my buddies still joke about that incident sometimes when an evening is about to end. ;D But yeah, I can definately understand someone who's out and starts to protest as soon as his brain's back online again. :D
A good ref is worth their weight in gold. It always amazed me - the footwork they use to stay out of the way of the fighters and not get cornered or blocked intovthe ropes/cage. I love, with all of the attitudes, Fedor and Hendo smiling and shaking hands with no animosity, both cool, respectful guys. 😎
I’ve literally never understood the controversy around Hendo v Fedor. Like, Fedor LITERALLY FACEPLANTED AND HAD SHOTS RAINING DOWN ON HIM. If anything I think it’s a bit of a late stoppage
Refereeing is definitely one of those thankless jobs that deserve a lot more respect. Mainly because we only really hear about it when something goes wrong or they fuck up. When they're doing their job well, they disappear into the background more or less and let the fight take center stage. I think the mma community (and sports in general) would do well to recognize how important and skilled refs are. Imagine how much worse injuries and stuff would be without a third man in the cage.
It bothers me so much the standard they're held to and the shit they get, like try run your sport without refs and realize how much they do for your org. Especially in sport fighting like MMA where fighters can "accidentally" throw an illegal technique and a refs has made some unforgivable error in not giving a competitor enough warnings on thier own mistakes.
@@conor9966 There's also the problem of some athletes just genuinely not understanding the rules of their own sport. I've heard plenty of refs complain about that. A lot of these athletes are gifted physically, but not so much intellectually lol.
Mad respect for still finding interesting top 10 lists every now and then. You've been at it long enough that a lot of times I wonder if it's even possible to make a top 10 list that isnt just the same events from other lists you already made.
Imagine how great this video would be if the UFC let you use replays, imagine how many more fans they would gain from allowing free promotion of the sport.
These channels don't draw in fans to mma , the ufc gets fans then the fans find these channels during lunchbreak . Your suggestion would definitely make it better for current fans though
@@christophergallagher3845 i disagree mma on point did a lot to bring in new fans and extreme casuals into the sport and become more invested, it sure did for me
@@christophergallagher3845I can say for a fact this channel gas grown me into a much bigger fan than I could have been before. And people interested in the sport in any way benefit greatly from high quality content like this, legitimizes the whole thing.
Great video and a great concept. Ref calls in many sports have been getting worse. Many VERY questionable calls with no repercussions. Having said that it's nice to see controversial calls being vindicated in replays.
Some refs in sports are just terrible, but they maintain their position because they have a union **coughangelhernandezcough**. Which is what they're supposed to do, but looks bad because they have to protect someone who is really just bad at their job.
Tanner Boser using the fence with his fist and the commentary going off on the ref until the replay shows he never grabs the fence at all might be one of my favorite ones!
He left it up his boyfriends anus. I met Benson when I was with Anthony Pettis and it was like 2 months after the showtime kick. I told Benson he was part of my favorite sequence in MMA. He said, "That's awesome, what happened?" I said, 'When Anthony kicked you off the cage.' Anthony Pettis was dying laughing and Benson was a great guy and said, "Ya that was a pretty cool kick, huh?!" Lol
Two of these fights I still have on DVD: Arlofski’s win and Frank Mir’s breakage. I remember how fast those wins came, especially. Arlofski’s. 6 seconds into the match, and a KO that was so fast, you could only catch it in slow motion. And Mir breaking Silva’s arm? Damn, the instant replay made me wince. Good call on both of those matches.
I cant remember what mma promotion it was but it was a obscure one. The crowd boo the ref and then the replay shown the lowblow and the crowd stop booing. The the ref did the DX suck it at the crowd .
Herzog was probably influenced by the guy reaching for his side on the front kick reaction. If it was a cup shot, then the guy would have immediately collapsed to his knees, not reach for his side and lower himself down.
I watched Aljo vs Yan 1 live and remember very clearly Mark telling Yan that Aljo is down so no knees. Honestly I could tell watching that Yan was getting ready to throw that knee as soon as he started pushing down on Aljos head.
its probably because yan is natively russian and they speak a different language then english compared to the us offiicials. so when he went to say it and warn yan couldnt understand what was being said.
I laughed at 14:49 when you said that, "Tim Sylvia found himself DEEP into an armbar attempt," because technically, his arm broke where it did because it wasn't deep enough 🤣 I enjoy all your videos, man, keep up the good work!
The dude was for sure out, even when “relaxing” your arm doesn’t go completely limp like that, especially when the ref is repeatedly grabbing at it to make sure you’re still awake
I was thinking he wasn’t just because the arm that was in the guillotine was not being pulled up toward the ear or into the carotid very much, so I figured he had space and couldn’t be choked out from there. I guess we’ll never know but I’m still not certain whether he was out or not because his whole body doesn’t visibly go limp, just the arm. Regardless that’s on the fighter not the ref, Tognoni checked repeatedly and if you aren’t out and let your arm drop like that…you’re an idiot 😂
A bunch of craziness in here that i really wanted to talk about but sam rockwell as zaphod was priceless!!🤗🤗😁😁 It made me laugh and realize, none of this matters!! Thank you guys!!😁😁👍👍
All of them do 😅 and dosent seem to get better with age the leg snapping of kicks is horrible but my worst is knee bars and heel hucks ive torn all muscles in my knee and that pain is like being winded but you can't get your breath back because its like your body cant quite take in the pain haha fun times eg
Another good one at least from my perspective was Bobby Green vs Krause. Bobby kicked Krause low earlier in the fight, but the finishing kick was to the body. I recall Krause trying to play it as a low blow while ppl online were roasting Green, but Big John didnt hesitate to call it, and when the replay goes u see why.
I met Paul Buentello shortly after at a Rage in the cage event in Phoenix. He was so humble about that moment and was so enthusiastic when talking to me and my friend. He was so happy to sign a bunch of stuff for us and we talked for about 15 mins. he was a total class act!
Crazy how recent the Chairez vs lacerda fight was and how adamant the commentators were that it was a bad call when watching it live. I originally thought that arm going limp and the ref checking to see if he was out lead to an appropriate stoppage but the commentators actually convinced me otherwise until i saw different angles and replays.
Offtopic: I just need that off my chest. I usually never comment on videos on youtube yet I‘m watching you guys constantly for the last 3 or 4 years. I just wanna thank you from the bottom of my heart for your online presence, quality content, availability, way of treating your fans, possibilities and opportunities to get to know you guys and so much more. I watched your stuff every day and night, and always before going to sleep. You guys are built into my daily routine and I genuinely wouldn‘t know what to do if you stopped. You accompanied me for so many things, like the ending of my 6y relationship, the horrible time after and even until now. You guys most certainly don‘t know how much of a positive influence you have on so many lifes in so many beautiful ways. THANK YOU GUYS.
Im still confused at what sylvia thought he was gonna do with a broken arm, i heard him say it still bothers him to this day, so imagine how messed up it would be if herb didnt catch it lol
@@TommyNir if the arm isn't bend at all and the fighter isn't complaining how should the doctor know its broken? its not like they have x-ray vision. unless you saw like herb that the arm got snapped it just looks like he was in an armbar andthe ref stopped the fight befpre any tapping
I was telling my friend while watching the first fight that when that arm went limp, even if he didn’t tap or wasn’t completely choked out yet, he stopped intelligently defending which is grounds for the ref to stop the fight for the fighter’s safety
After watching that last fight, Dominic Cruz has quickly become my least favorite commenter. Even watching live you could see why the ref called the fight with repeatedly checking the arm and it going limp. Cruz jumped all over that guy. Saying the refs need to take classes and get in subs and see how they feel. Get out of here Dom. Ever since Cejudo beat the snot out of him, he's become a intolerable know it all. Whenever he is on the commentary team I know I'm about to hear him try and prove how smart he is for the next 3 hours. He can't lose with grace and he sure can't commentate because he just dominates the discussion the entire time.
Never agreed with something more. It’s like DC trying to wrestle everyone now, but less fun and acceptable because DC is likeable and we all know he isn’t trying to ‘prove’ how good he is. Dom is a narcissist which is boring and predictable when they’re stuck on the sidelines in their head thinking they can still do it.
Dom lost with grace when Cody put on a masterclass and took his belt, didn't he? I like Dom's technical analysis of fights. DC is annoying af, a blowhard, asterisk "champ champ".
Thank you for clearing Chris T's name on that first one. I ALWAYS thought it was QUITE clear from the moment it happened. (I was watching like, "WHAT'S the confusion here??") Arm CLEARLY went limp after at LEAST TWO checks - and now we see it was even more. 👍👍 Vindicated.
This is such a good channel, been watching their videos since they first started a few years ago, and it’s great that they’re still making super interesting videos and doing well today
This is a great video. We hear all the time about referee's mistakes, but it's easy to forget that those mistakes are small islands in a sea of consummate professionalism. It's like what they say about drummers, that you remember when they f*ck up, but you don't notice the majority of the time when they get it right.
Silva did an interview shortly after saying while he thought he was fine during the fight he found out it was broken when he got to the hospital and Dean absolutely did the right thing
I still can't decide if Tim Sylvia was so juiced on roid rage he didn't notice his arm broke, or so juiced on roid rage he just didn't care, and wanted to fight anyway.
in defense of the rib break: that last angle shown is key: his hand went right for his ribs showing something was wrong. then there’s the fact that the kick did not actually hit his groin- it hit the top of his thigh and slid down. the referee saw his reaction, the glance off of the groin wasn’t what he was reacting to as he was hurt bad and wasn’t moving right.
*then there’s the fact that the kick did not actually hit his groin- it hit the top of his thigh and slid down.* It looks like it went into the ribs, moved down, then the dude extended his leg into the guys groin which then caused it to slide down the thigh. Should have been a no contest at least.
No matter what I'll always look to forgive an early stoppage, with an early stoppage you know for sure that reff actually cares about the fighters but with a late stop i question if that person should even be in the ring
The only really bad stoppages are the ones that are too late. The referee is there to prevent serious injury or death and I'd rather see a rematch than a funeral.
Herb Dean is a legend for saving Tim Silvia's arm from possible permanent damage. He stopped the fight, telling Silvia his arm is broken. Silvia proceeded to insist his arm is fine. Subsequent x-rays revealed multiple fractures that required several surgeries. With that armbar Frank Mir earned his BJJ blackbelt.
Imagine how much damage Sylvia would have done to himself if he threw another hard right with his forearm broken. That may have ended his career at 28 years old.
This topic is so niche but very fascinating. It really makes you appreciate how alert a referee has to be to call these fights. Money, status, pride, humiliation, and redemption on the line and one bad call sours the whole experience.
This mainly showed me how risky this sport is. Everyone gets the risk, but it’s hard to forget how easy and quick it is to injure yourself in ways the injured person can’t even notice
