After decades of Shimano 105, I switched to Campagnolo two years ago. I find the ergonomics and feel a lot better as well as the solid mechanical actuation.👍
I went for Chorus 12 speed on my custom bike 2 years ago. It's light and the carbon cranks look trick. Gear changes are fast and direct. I have rim brake of course but Ive always preferred Campagnolo to anything else so would never want a shizmano group set on my roadbikes
The deciding factor is Campagnolos next generation of Groupsets. I could very much see them increase their prices, put electric on everything and continue their strategy of ignoring market share in favor of higher margins. On the other hand, being the only company that offers mechanical high end stuff with rim breaks could be a way to earn money without much competition. I hope the next generation of Winspace frames continue with rim brakes and I'll build up a nice and light bike with Chorus or some other 12 Speed Mechanical Groupset.
I used to ride Shimano when I first started road riding then when I had a bike breaking crash, I built a new bike w/ Campy Chorus. This was in '05 and that set is still going strong. Precise shifting, quiet and reliable with just some cable and brake pad replacements. When I built my new gravel ride a few years ago I went w/ Campy Ekar and love that as well and compared to my riding buddies w/ SRAM and Shimano, the Ekar has proved to be less finicky and more reliable. Campy is actually affordable. I just wish they made a mountain groupset these days.
In terms of quality, yeah it's a step above hyper mass produced 105, but in the group hierarchy, Record is the competing groupset with Ultegra, with Super Record competing with Dura Ace. Chorus is specifically set to fill in the gap that competes with 105 and Sora, while giving the customer something higher end feeling than 105, where Athena used to. Since Athena was retired, Chorus got a significant bump in quality with downward drifiting technology going directly into it.
Is actually in between Ultegra and Durace. Thats how Campagnolo position their groupset. And dont forget, Chorus have a carbon arm crank and ultegra does not have it.
@@departurexx1520 That's because Shimano is still very hesitant to shift away from alloy in high-end components. They're still mindful of the mistake Simplex made, that set off the end of the French component industry. If Chorus is in between Ultegra and Dura Ace, then why would they still have both Record and Super Record? Which both have way more carbon parts than Chorus.
It doesn’t matter how fast your mechs shift. the chain still can’t be stamped on until the same number of teeth are engaged. For anyone spinning sub 100 rpm the chain to tooth engagement is the same for both systems, Ramp profile on the rear cassette has more to do with shifting than the speed the mech moves.
Stopped upgrading at 10spd. I have 105, Veloce group with Centaur carbon crank, raced last Yr on 10spd Apex. All good quality, easy to use and serviceable groupsets. For my modest ability anyway...
If I was buying a new road bike right now, I'd snag up one of those Campy mechanical group sets a.s.a.p. before they, too, go extinct. I remember getting a Raleigh Team 753 in the late 80s spec'd with DuraAce, and even then drooled over Campagnolo Super Record. BTW, in regard to price, that whole top-of-the-line Raleigh bike with components and wheels was only $2000. How times have changed.
Great video.... I have both, and Chorus is in a different league than 105... I would put it on par with the mechanical Dura Ace...... it's beautiful. In fact, I would go as far as to say, at the price it is, it's the absolute best value for money. It's got most of the tech from the record, the looks, performance, etc.....its light weight, it wears in not delaminate like Shimano or falls to bits after 2 years like SCAM.... it really is the connoisseur's choice...
Don't forget one thing about electric shifting: batteries. A battery ages with time and can be recharged only a certain amount of times. A mechanical groupset can last decades provided you treat it well, electronic can't because at some point Shimano will stop providing batteries for that series and you'll have to toss the groupset away.
As a self-admitted Campy fanboy, (for 45 years or so) I applaud this. However, unless a major bike mfg. offers Chorus standard, I fear that Campy won't make big inroads in market share. However, based upon supply chain issues in Asia and the weakness of the Euro possibly things will change. One problem is dealer support. While I have had good experience in getting parts and support, even in the New York Area there may be a total of 3 or 4 shops that are Campy competent.
In a City of 10 million that says a lot. I live in one of the winter bicycling centers, only one shop handles Campy and they charge a premium to service it.
Even as a fanboy one has to admit that Campagnolo is a boutique brand. They charge moon prices for spar parts, such as 70$/€ for a single 11-teeth cog for an 11-speed Record cassette. Which is, to a cetain extend, understandable, given that even in their Record year (pun intended) their total revenue was about as much as Shimano's marketing budget.
@@jamesmckenzie3532 I had that problem once. It was probably over 15 years ago and one of my friends has NEVER let me forget it. I think I had to stop more than 7 times that ride. It was painful! I switched to clinchers but still have hopes of riding tubies again. Now, I put talc inside my inner tube spare baggie and haven't had a flat in as long as I can remember. I wind up taking someone's spare tube that doesn't have talc or corn starch and giving them mine whenever I'm riding and someone's fixing a flat that doesn't treat their tubes. I always felt safer with sew-ups... although I don't think you can still repair them that way. I couldn't take my Conti Sprinters apart, if I recall correctly.
What I've noticed when Shimano (finally) upgraded to 12sp, is that the Shimano now charges MORE than Campagnolo at all upper levels (top 3 groups anyway). At the top end, SR EPS 12 is now cheaper than DA DI2 12, and now Campy is actually the cheaper option until you hit the Tiagra class, which appears to be the new 105? So Campy does now have a shot at the budget conscious market for the first time ever, as Shimano has now become the Campagnolo of the 1980's to 90's. :)
For me the biggest PROBLEM with Shimano and SRAM is that now they offer the top tiers in ONLY electronic. Their web sites doesn't even list the mechanical versions anymore, so it seems production has stopped, and going forward those top gruopos will be electronic only. There are still hundreds of thousands of cyclist who in the future would buy mechanical 105, Ultegra, and Dura Ace, but it seems that option is going to run out. I don't know HOW Shimano bean counters came to the conclusion: less options equals bigger sales. WHY not offer your 3 best groups in Di2 or mechanical, AND also with the option of Rim or Disk?? There are thousands of people that still want mechanical groups with rim brakes, and want all the benefits of a high end group set (quality, performance, weight savings). Automobile manufactures figured it out decades ago: more options means more sales, how the bike industry decided to go backwards instead of forwards is beyond logic... give them less options, raise the price and watch the sales increase! Yeah, right. Good luck with that one!
This is my point, I know why they are doing it, it is so they don't need another manufacturing train for the lower sold higher end groupsets. It saves them money. Unlike cars, many people build up or keep riding older bikes. Now you can't get parts for them to repair or build up as they are all mechanical and rim brakes. This to me is the market telling us what we need to ride. I agree it will backfire after the logistic and demand goes back to normal. I can already see the interest in bikes starting to decline and scooters are taking over.
Ultegra has never been a direct competitor to Record, Campy released Potenza years ago to compete with 105, which never gained any traction. Ultegra's natural competitor has been Chorus. Both brands have there good points and bad, I personal believe Campagnolo for ergonomics and Shimano for the rest.
I switched to Chorus in around 1990, before that I was on Dura Ace for several years and before that, Campag Record. I'm still on Chorus, it's always been bulletproof, although I still just use rim brakes and the 11 speed mechanical, beat the pants of Shimano any day
The main drawback to Chorus is the need for a few special "Campy only" tools. Other than that, Chorus is my hands-down winner over 105. I'm talking about cable-operated rim brake versions here.
Agree with your viewpoint however not many bike shops in US stock ready to ride bikes that come with Campy. Most come with sram or Shimano. Most folks won’t realize chorus is an option.
Recent quality control issues with Shimano recalling 800,000 cranksets that crack and fail just furthers my loyalty to campagnolo The Italian brand is far and above the quality leader as compared to Shimano I’ve been riding chorus 11 speed for years, it’s bulletproof.
I know a respectable mechanic who says Campagnolo parts are hard to service and perform less reliably than their respective SH counterpart. Being a DIY bike tinkerer, remaining in the SH realm makes more sense to me bevause I already have the tools and the occasional spare parts put away. I also see that the secondary market for SH parts is a lot cheaper, which is another plus for me. However, I have always fantacized about building up a nice old steel frame with a modern Campy grouppo. Maybe one day…
I ride campy and my groupsets have been super reliable. So not my experience. The last 11 speed was not a good groupset, but the new 12 speed is very good.
@Charles Man I know that a dedicated Campy crank arm puller exists, but on neither my '09 Cetaur cranks nor on my '15 Super Record cranks I ever needed one. You just need a 10-mm allen wrench to loosen the bolt inside the BB spindle, then you can pull the cranks out by hand. Campy also has not changed their cassette body design since 1997. Everything from 9-speed to 12-speed fits on the same hub. What you have to admit, though, is that their spar parts prices are close to insane.
@Charles Man You are right. Yes, I remember there were two different styles of BB spindles. But given that's Not the case in their current groupsets they did "knock the shit off".
@@thedownunderverse the front derailleur was a poor design and it was subject to a part failing in the rear derailleur. Groupset looked very pretty, but the front shift would keep going out of adjustment. It only had a one step trim in the big ring. Just not a good design.
Yeah, when you look at the complexity of other products you need to ask, why so expensive. You can by a camera gimbal with carbon fibre arms, electronics and gyros in it for $1500 AUD. I would say this is more complex than a bicycle groupset.
At $2800, very few will buy the 105 Di2. If they stick it on a bike, the price will go from $2400 to $4300 about. They need that $1000 diffrence to Ultegra electric to convince people to spend more. If you look at a complete bike price, it is the sum of all the component RRP's. $2000 will buy a very decent set of wheels that will make you faster. I buy Camp wheels allready.
I feel that most mid range bikes are only disc brake these days automatically excluding campy. But it may give them an edge on the low end $1-2k range being able to do Chorus instead of Tiagra.
@@waynosfotos it sounded in the video that they were only offered on the higher tiers which would exclude them from being competitive on the low end. Maybe I misheard the info. I've really only ridden shimano since the 90's.
Last time I bought Shimano was in 1985 with Dura ace EX…..which was garbage! Been on Campy ever since with a brief excursion to Suntour Superbe 👍 All my bikes are Campy 11 speed mechanical….Potenza and Centaur. Centaur….that’s the peoples groupset. Works with Shimano and SRAM 11 speed cassettes. Shimano….no thanks.
Sadly, prices have evened out in Europe. 11 speed rimbrake 105 groupset can be found for like 540€, while Campy Centaur is like 520€. Sure, you can save a tenner or two, but in grand scheme of things, it's not worth it taking into account compatibility issues (Campagnolo sucks hard because of proprietary bits)
Campagnolo for the WIN! BRAVO!!!🥂 Look, I need another bike like another wife 😉 but if I was in market to build it's Italian for my next stallion! Great video!
Well, I remember back in 2008, prices of groupsets in Singapore are: Campagnolo Record: S$3000 Campagnolo Chorus: S$2000 Shimano Dura-Ace: S$2000 Shimano Ultegra: S$1000 Shimano 105: S$600 Do note Shimano list prices then are about 10%-20% higher but there is so much supply that most in Singapore could get them at the above prices. For old-timers like me, to say 105 is same level as Chorus is total absurd BS, lol. To me, it just mean it is a great time to buy Campagnolo, getting something classier and at more friendly prices at the same time.
Campagnolo lasts ! Chorus vs 105 ? More ultegra I would have thought but having used campagnolo since 1980’s. Tried ultegra. Chain snaps and weak leavers is directing me back to campagnolo. You get what you pay.
Shucks, I never thought I'd be perhaps getting Campy. Back in the day, when I had a custom racebike made the builder said "Get Superbe Pro(later to be SRAM) and all my buddies ( Campy guys) scoffed. But after a rain ride they were maintaining bearings etc. while I rode on...40yrs on, I still ride my front wheel from then as a clincher rain wheel... Nothing ever done to the hub! Now that's quality! But now those days have passed, I guess. And the two companies from the east aren't even making stuff I'd want to ride anymore. So maybe it's Campy-time.
Yes it is a great opportunity that campy will win this.. it does not make any sense that your Shimano has to increase the price too high on the 105 people are going to look to the other direction as far as buying campy
If I switch from Shimano to Campy which tools would I need to replace e.g. for maintaining chains, disc rotors, bottom bracket etc. Would the switch be expensive? What about changing freehubs on current Shimano focused wheels. Can that be done easily?
You do need some extra gear. Not a expert here as i am too lazy and get a wrencher to do my servicing. I believe you need a cassette locking tool and a chain joiner.
The only thing you need that is unique is a crank bolt tool UT-BB110 and a cassette removing tool UT-BB080, both of these aren't expensive. In the UK these can be bought for less than £30 for the pair. The chain can be done in 2 ways. The official way is to rivet the pin with their very nice but expensive chain tool, alternatively you can use a quick link for very little cost.
Campy needs to get back in the OEM game, that's what's keeping them from being the "Groupset of the People". Until you can purchase a bike with a Campy groupset for under $5k, Campy will stay in their niche market. The average person isn't going to say, "I'll take it, but you need to swap the groupset for me...". I don't think you can even get a bike with Chorus from the factory.
I think this may happen, at this price point we know manufacturers even mix quality of groupsets to keep the price down. This will be hard to do with electric hydro 105. Then we have campy, if they sharpen their pencil ✏️ then this may very well happen, as it brings the price down considerably. Wheels fitted will also be budget. It will be interesting to see what happens in this space. But for sure 105 is now not the every persons groupset.
How about Campagnolo Centaur? Campagnolo 11 speed rim brake centaur groupset. Brilliant performance, amazing price. Why do more people not seem to have any interest in this great groupset, why is 'Chorus' the peoples groupset and not Centaur?
Yes, exactly, Centaur is groupset of the people. Is cheaper and lighter than 105. When I've spotted announcement of the new 105, I imediatly ordered Centaur groupset for my budget under 6,8 bike build. Only cranks are so heavy, but I will use my ultegra cranks with power meter and SRAM Red 22 cassette.
I think Campag and especially Sram have a golden opportunity here to win massive market share. Sram probably has the superior technology, fully wireless, easy to maintain, well established on CX and road. If they keep their prices where they are and expand their compatibility to rim brake, direct mounts etc. as well as 10,11,12 spd they will get on a lot of mid-range bikes old and new.
I don't envision SRAM building anything rim anytime soon. I see some really low cost Chinese companies taking over the Groupset Of The People. I don't see Campy doing this.
Sram's groups are by far the most expensive. Rival, their lowest-tier group, is more expensive than mechanical Campagnolo Super Record and it's more than a metric pound heavier! Plus, their cranks are ugly and the 13-teeth difference between front chain rings is just silly. With 105 going electronic, Shimano caught up hard in raising component prices. If any component maker has a chance to increase market share it's Campagnolo. Unfortunately they are so much smaller than Shimano and even Sram, so they will have a hard time to step up.
@@einundsiebenziger5488 RIVAL and 105Di2 is meant for NOOB. Pure performance ride will rather have the SR mechanical all day. The power transfer from top end groupset will always be there. If you think you have a strong leg, then RIVAL or 105Di2. If you're not a strong rider, take CAMPY mechanical or 11speed Ultegra Di2 at least. Electronic shifting wont help you save watts during climb. If you're social rider, want to post some new tech in your social media than go ahead.
I got Campy 12s Record on my mid 90s steel frame with aluminium wheelset and yet it weights around 7.5kg. Now, would I like to "upgrade" to a similar price range bike with the new 105 disc... God no! That would mean an aluminium frame and maybe +2 to +3kg to complete build while having probably a lot worse riding quality. So there is a problem with these new groupsets and bikes, pricing. I would need to up the antes and at least double the price of my bike to get an actual upgrade. Sure I wish to have an aeroish bike with 12s EPS and discs but I still need to eat.
Campy is better quality on wearable parts. Regardless of money I'm not leaving mechanical groups until I can't shift manual. My Porsche will be manual t😊oo.
Rimbreak will always has its place on roadbikes. And 98% of riders are not pro. Spend 6 months salary on roadbike to look like a prorider? There is an issue elsewhere, likley on top of the shoulders.... The industry is going mayhan at up their turnover. Marketing with no restraint, superlativ in abundance... Well, not biting that hook. 15 000 US$ = own a probike 😂😂😂😂😂 2-6000 and i get on that train. Steel is slowly comming back, stainless is as well. Happy ride to all 😁
I see neither Campy (because is is a right PITA to get it serviced) nor Shitmano (because it is becoming expensive to buy) becoming the next generation. What I see is one of the Chinese companies stepping into the vacuum and filling the low price 12 speed need. All they need is for any manufacturer to pick them up and away we go. It's like Tekro brakes. Everyone laughed at them until the likes of Specialized and Trek started putting them on the lower tier bikes. Then everyone sat up and took notice.
I have to disagree, shimano have pissed off a lot of people with the lack of spare parts and campy have been easier to get. Mechanics have been fitting campy chains to shimano or anything else they can get. The Chinese brands are still on line only and are not stocked by shops for servicing. In future this may change, but l dont think currently the chinese brands have that traction yet.
@@waynosfotos Maybe in AUS that's true, but here in a major training town, you won't find but one shop stocking anything Campy. Used to be three or four, but there's no demand for it. There's no shortage of other brands. What I see in the very near future is a few lower end shops ordering and stocking Chinese brands like Winspace. We already have a shop looking at stocking Hunt wheels and acting as a distributor. Bug difference between AUS and US.
I’m not a weight weinie. So the arguments laid out here don’t make sense from a cost benefit standpoint. The gains from e-shifters and disk breaks are for most riders minimal to meaningless at best. I’ve never had issues with stopping, even emergency stopping, with rim breaks. Same with e-shifters. They are nice and have an aesthetic appeal but do they make a significant difference in shifting? Not really. So why pay for the exorbitant price differences? For a cost conscious buyer who isn’t chasing seconds is the cost-benefit there? Not really. So factoring that in if I’m truly evaluating performance gains vs cost-benefit you would be silly to choose Shimano 105 e-shifters set up for disc breaks vs Chorus with mechanical Brifters and rim breaks. The value just simply isn’t there for the e-105 group set. If I only have X amount of money to spend I would buy the mechanical Chorus with rim breaks and spend the money saved on purchasing a better set of wheels which will make a real difference in performance vs e-shifters or disc brakes.
Nice video as usual. 👍🏻 I don’t think anyone who is looking at this logically (without a Campy fan boy perspective 😘) is considering switching to Campy. Firstly, if they want a cheaper group set they can choose from Tiagra or from the growing and ever improving Chinese brands. Secondly, the price. Only $2800AUD for Record you say? ($2300 for rim?) Well BND is quite close to AUD (1.06) and here an Ultegra rim mechanical is only $1050. Campy is not worth the extra $1,300 Thirdly, if you already have shimano bikes it doesn’t make sense to move to Campy. It’s like if all your bikes and extra wheels are rim moving to disc is going to be a real headache. Campy is not compatible with Shimano, you will need new hubs, new spare parts and new tools! You can’t even change a campy chain without their special tool. So the best option is SRAM or Chinese brand because they all use the same system. Finally, on a note of personal experience. I bought campy Record 11 speed for one of my bikes 6 years ago. Up to that point I have used Ultegra. After less than a year I got rid of it and went back to Ultegra. It’s was not as well built as I had been lead to believe. The shifting was stiff and difficult. (Worst shifting group set I have ever used, Tiagra 8 speed is better.) It was noisy and impossible for me to maintain as I didn’t know anyone with the tools at the time. I did like the look of it at first… but after using it that wore off.
@@mihir1997 prices can always vary from where you shop, but 105 from converting from quoted prices in pounds and USD it is around 2800 AUD in Aussie. I only checked a few sites but Rival was around the same price. You may be right as Rival has been out for some time so can be had for a better price. Just makes 105 even more uncompetitive.
Modern campagnolos are ugly af! Especially these "molded plastic" rear derailleurs. At the same time, a bit older versions of campy like 10-speed Daytona was beautiful and had the best mechanical shifting I've ever experienced even compared to the latest mechanical iterations of ultegra and dura ace.
