I know you're not a big fan of shooting gel on a regular basis but I really think there's a niche to be filled by you man. You already have the best reloading channel, hands down. By adding some gel into the mix, it's like icing on the cake! After all, we are hunters... Aweome job Johnny... keep it up.
Berger bullets are designed to penetrate 3-5 inches and then blow up like a grenade. So with the Creedmoor, the round produced the right result. The hydrostatic result of the bullet rapidly fragmenting creates additional damage to the animal and they are DRT or don’t go far. Your ballistic test with the gelatin jumping off the table is evidence of the hydrostatic dump. I shoot this round out of my Creedmoor with great success and the internal damage is complete. I am shooting between .13 and .18 groups at 100 yards with a speed of 2835 FPS with Alliant 17. BTW- I enjoy your videos thoroughly!
I'm a huge 6.5 fan as my brother hooked me with 6.5 Swede 25yrs ago. I stepped over to the Creemoor and am intrigued by the Grendel. As said elsewhere, Johnny, you have about the best reloading focused channel. Keep it up!!
Just got out the Berger reloading manual and it says the sharp point is to allow 2-3" of penetration before starting to expand and shed 40-85% of bullet weight as it fragments into surrounding tissue (vital organs).
Experienced this many years ago. Solved by switching to Federal Prem., with a Nostler Partitioned bullet, the ticket. The Rem. stuff was separating just like the Berger's. The deer were running, also poor blood trails. The Nostler Partitioned held together, mushroomed, and transferred the energy to the game. DRT. Makes no difference buying over the counter or reloading, once it's sent down range. Love your work. Used to reload shotgun, trying to learn the long gun. Now into 6.5 Grendel, and a 6.5 Creed and .308 for the piggies. The 6.5's all co-witness. Awesome learning Grendels can handle 130-135 gr. bullets! Keep raising the bar!
My buddy and I both recovered a bullet from our bucks this year. We both shot Hornady SST’s....great bullet. They both mushroomed nicely. I was shooting 130gr out of my .270Win and he was shooting a .30-06...not sure the bullet size. They both were just inside the skin on the back side of the deer.
This is exactly the type of testing I love to see. How a load reacts down range. Any high power bullet is going to have a large wound channel at ten yards. The Grendel was a perfect example of what one wants to eliminate from their hunting choices. The Berger performed as designed for the Creedmore. Would love to see some subsonic hunters at 50 & 100 yards, and how they perform. New bullets are hitting the market that are designed for subsonic expansion that look very interesting. Like the Hornady Sub-X. Thanks JRB!
Well, Berger makes the most accurate bullets. They still hold that title. - Also, I know you're in the same region as me, you're a hero for getting outdoors for activities this weekend!
Aaron Anderson during multiple testing and reviews the ELDx is extremely accurate gunwerk1000 6.5-284 Norma with 143edlx gunwerk ammunition fired a 2” group at 900yrds and 4”at 1200yrds in 8-10mph winds the world record at 1000yards is 1.4” set by 240gr Sierra in a 30-338 Lapua wildcat in 2007 which broke Richard DeSimmons 1.5” in 6.5-284 in 2002
I also meant to say this. There’s a lot of channels out there that either test terminal or external ballistics but very few do both. Keep up the great videos!! This is honestly the only reloading channel I watch that’s as meticulous as I would be if I were doing it. Thanks.
Love these kind of videos, will pass on this bullet for elk out here in Montana.Have been using 140 gr accubonds in 6.5-284 , have shot two elk both clean kills but no recovered bullets
I just finished your 25 part series on loading...I am glad to see you are still at it...You will be seeing me around here a lot...take care and happy loading...
Great video! Thanks again. I have not personally used any Berger bullets for hunting, but based on my personal research it is my understanding that their hunting bullets are designed to lose from 40 to 85% of their weight as they shrapnel into the organs. So as another poster mentioned, they aren’t meant for weight retention as other hunting bullet designs are. Again, this is just from what I have read online from the experience of other hunters, but it appears that the tumbled bullet is not an uncommon situation. Then again, others report many clean hunting kills with no such failures. So it’s tough to say. Being where I hunt it is already tough enough to find elk and get a clean shot, I have never really felt like taking a chance with the Bergers. This past season was my first time out using the Accubonds and they performed well. Previous to that I had used Barnes for many seasons but had experienced some unsatisfactory results on deer. No fault of the bullet, they’re just too hard. I wanted something to shoot as an “all rounder” so I switched to Accubonds. I have talked to several hunters in my area that swear by the Bergers though. So I’d be interested in hearing how they perform for you if you give them a try.
I was always under the impression that bergers were suppose to do that. All the early long range hunting shows use to talk about how the penetrate 2 inches then come apart dumping all the bullets energy into the animal.
What I remember from the Berger book is they like shrapnel .. they are not after the perfect mushroom. In fact the one that did the classic mushroom was a surprise for me and not what I expected. The pieces were. In fact opposite Hornady which used a heavier jacket on the ELD-X bullets over their match bullets, Berger actually uses heavier jackets in their match target bullets for when the guns get real to the bullets do not come apart. Definitely not the same philosophy!
An awesome patreon supporter (like yourself) is sending me a Berger manual! I should have it tomorrow or the next day. I'm looking forward to reading what they have to say.
Tom is exactly right. The Bergers are designed to penetrate approximately 2" and shed its weight like a grenade going off inside the animal. I have used them extensively for deer and coyotes. With reasonable shot placement, the animals don't take many steps, if any. The two issues I have with Berger terminal performance are that it damages a lot of deer meat and the coyote pelts have an exit hole you could throw a softball through.
Yup, as njgrplr2007 already said, per the Berger handbook, the hunting line of bullets are a VLD designed to penetrate 2-3” before the bullet expands and sheds, fragmenting 40% to 85%, its weight. Except for the Grendel load, looks like the bullet did what it was designed to do.
The 2 deer i have shot with the Berger hunter were out of a 308 and second out of a 300 OLY, both were devestating on the deer under 100 yds. They go in and fragment causing massive damage. I basically poured out the chest cavity when dressing the deer. Of your tests i was most surprised with the one mushroom
Back before berger offered hunting, target, and tactical versions, I got explosive performance with their vld. I am not sure which line compares with the original berger, but it was rare for an animal to move more then a few feet. Sometimes under the skin on the impact side there would be cantaloupe size holes. 140gr vld in 6.5-06 ackley, and 185 and 210 in various 300 magnums
After recovering a bullet out of a nice buck, I wasn’t happy. That being said, the buck did drop after 20-30 yards probably due to Shot placement. I’ve read horror stories about expansion issues with them. Maybe a lighter jacket would fix this.!
Even a few serrations or slits in the hollow point to get things started might help. The number of intact hollow points was pretty shocking to me. Do the VLD Huting and Elite Hunter bullets have the same reputation for expansion issues?
Target bullets have thinner jackets, and will shed their jackets almost instantly upon impact. Therefore, they dump a lot of energy very quickly, thus having little penetration. And for that reason, I use them to hunt coyotes with, but I wouldn't use a target bullet for any larger game.
Bergers hollow point bullet doesn't work like a traditional HP. The nose collapses into the core (there is a hollow cavity behind the nose), and causes the bullet to fragment. I guide Elk and Deer hunters in Utah for 3 months every year, and a large percentage of our clients shoot Bergers, myself included, and we have never lost an animal hit anywhere near the vitals with a Berger. Recovered bullets don't tell the whole story, recovered animals do! Check my channel and you can see what a 140 Berger does out of a 264 Win on a big Bull Elk at long range.
I don’t think they are supposed to mushroom at all. Im pretty sure Berger advertises that the break apart and deposit all energy within the first few inches.
This is true. I haven't read anything from Berger stating that their bullets expand like a partition or other types. These bullets are supposed to fragment. They are working as designed. The only reason the Classic Hunter line exists is to change the Ogive type to make them less sensitive to jump like the VLD. These bullets are great for broadside double lung shots.
You will probably have similar results with the gamekings. This is exactly why I only shoot animals I plan on consuming with barnes bullets. I would love to see some barnes shot into this gel for a "control" bullet.
Agree. Barnes are awesome. Never fragment into shrapnel like that and drill through anything. But I have only shot medium game under 300 yards with them wherein they expanded well, so my concern is about low velocity expansion. Not sure how well they'll do at 1800 fps
Accuracy has been crap for me in Grendel, but sometimes it's worth giving up a bit of accuracy for terminal performance! I will be testing the 129 Accubond in my new Grendel barrel soon and I'll be sure to gel test them as well.
Johnny's Reloading Bench 140gr accubonds give me clover leaf groups in my sako 6.5x55 and flatten white tails nicely. That’s the plain old accubonds, never did fiddle with the long range ones.
heard nothing butt bad things with Berger bullets from getting the seating depth just right to this video I will stick with Barnes bullets for best terminal performance and wont be eating any led. thanks Johnny
Berger doesn't make an actual hunting bullet. Printing the word hunting on the box doesn't make it so. They are cup-and-draw soft lead core target bullets. They aren't made for terminal performance. Nosler Partitions, Swift Scirroco, Hornady SST, Barnes TSX...those are hunting bullets. 6.5CM is so popular now in inexpensive hunting rifles it would be EXCELLENT if you tested hunting bullets like the ones I mentioned. 👍
I used a 210 grain barnes ttsx from a 338rum on a 5x5 bull elk at 100 yards. Bullet penciled through with no expansion. Good thing it was in the vitals. 338 cal exit wound
The results shouldn't be surprising. They behaved exactly like any high BC projectile. If you want a good expanding bullet, you're going to have to go toward a lower BC softpoint
One great aspect of your tests is that you shot them at 200 yards. Here in Atlantic Canada, it represents a fairly long shot while hunting big game. Your tests gives us a better idea of what the bullets would do at long range. Very few channels shoot at longer ranges in ballistic tests. What your test with this bullet does show is that they might be good performers at longer ranges in the Creedmoor. While they fragmented a lot at 200 yards, they might do well for those who shoot much further. Probably not a bush bullet though. It may fragment too much at short ranges and lack penetration. Imagine if the bullet hits a substantial bone. They may still work on a good broadside lung shot though. Still hard to beat the old Nosler Partition though. The bonded bullets have caught up, and I still like the Barnes bullets for bush hunting where shots under 50 yards are the rule. I use 7mm08 Rem.
lol, thats because Berger bullets are designed to fragment. Im surprised people will pay over $50 for a box of Bergers, load them up and go hunting with them without ever realizing that they are designed to fragment after a couple inches of penetration, which in reality, is the fastest/cleanest killing rather than a bullet that stays in a tight mushroom that goes straight through
The best part is how the folks at Berger created their hunting bullet. Their hunting bullet was their original target design. When they changed their jacket design to make a better target bullet, they relabeled their original design as a hunting bullet, and big ass critters have been dropping dead ever since
I mean Berger’s kind of come in 3 flavors and that’s it. Vld is softest. (Obviously best for a grendal) hybrids like this one. And target. Vld are absolute grenades past 21-2200. Depending on what you hit of course. Sst is best for grendal. Berger’s just aren’t made to stay together. That’s on purpose. And why most outfitters recommend them especially for longer ranges. Wider possibility of killing from 100 to 1000. Sst or vld. Or gamechanger lol which is funny cause it’s just an old school regular bullet but it’s a game changer lol.for the little grendal. Good hog round I guess. And Florida deer.
EVERY Berger bullet gel test I watch definitely reinforces my decision not to use them for hunting! I believe there are SEVERAL better hunting bullets!!!
hey Johnny, I had a thought a few days concerning bullet construction and expansion at "extended" ranges (more specifically at slower velocities). Quite a few of the "OTM" bullets have information in the descriptions saying that they have a thinner jacket and will apparently explode upon impact much like a varmint projectile. Might that same bullet traveling at 500-1,000+ fps slower than the intended speed act more like a traditional hunting style hp or sp? If so, a varmint or thin jacketed otm projectile intended for the 6.5 Creedmoor might be just the ticket at 200+ yards. Or even just an otm designed for the 6.5 Grendel (If such a thing exists). Thanks for all of the content and information.
@@colsoncustoms8994 they would most likely expand rapidly/blow up still. Hunting bullets have tapered jackets so they stick together. Some have other tricks to keep the core from separating(Hornady's interlock, nosler's partition) which allows the bullet to stick together and penetrate
Been doing some testing and have seen this as well. Either they don't open up, or they disintegrate. The bonded speer gold dot's he recently tested held together really really well. @@daltonv5206
So they fragment at close range and don't expand at Creedmoor velocities past 350-400 yards. This is why I'll always chose Partitions for normal velocity cartridges and TTSX for high velocity (.257 Weatherby, etc.). This is also why I'm not an advocate of very long shooting at big game animals.
Considering how much you shot the gel, I think you dont have any issues with the creedomore. Especially with that first round. After such damage, there is less resistance and it still expanded. Fucking awesome. Also good load.
I wouldn't expect stellar results with those gamekings. My understanding is that the HPBT gamekings are "tougher" than the BTSP's. I'd probably recommend the prohunter 120 in this case.
Grendel doesn't have enough velocity to deal with a pro hunter, I don't think. And for the Creedmoor, there are a lot of 140 and 143 options I would probably choose over a 120. I bet the pro hunter would do a great job, though!
Berger’s are not expected to hold together. They penetrate and then turn into shrapnel causing all kinds of damage to internal organs. I used to read all kinds of concerns about their ability to take down game because they didn’t retain mass in one mushroomed piece. I don’t see those concerns raised as much anymore. Perhaps people have realized that bullets don’t have to expand into a one-piece mushroom to be lethal on North American game animals. I’ve seen 7mm Berger’s take down bull Elk at 1,000 yds and 1,340 yards, so I expect their terminal performance is quite lethal at even those ranges given the right retained velocity and bullet placement.
What about 100 or 120 gr ballistics tips? I just wanted a reliable bullet that expand at about 150 in a 22in Grendel barrel. I think bullets should at lease be tested at 100 yrd. Most bullet at close ranges are going to expand but most people don't shoot any game at 15 yards. I love the Grendel videos. Thanks!
Looks like perfect performance from Berger as designed. Berger bullets are not supposed to expand and leave a pretty little mushroom. They are supposed to enter a few inches and then explode/fragment exactly like your test showed. They are absolutely deadly on Elk when you send it through their shoulder. A bullet that enters a few inches and then fragments going in different directions in the vitals is MUCH more deadly than a bullet that stays together in a pretty mushroom that guys seem to drool over and want to take pictures of. Look up Terminal Ballistic Research by a guy named Nathan out of New Zealand and you'll learn a lot about terminal performance of fragmenting bullets and how deadly on large game they are at all ranges
Hit a large bull elk or bull moose in the shoulder at 500+ yards with a berger and you have lost a wounded animal. Bergers are great when you hit an animal in the vitals and dont have to go through anything more than a rib to get there. Another big concern is having a lead core bullet explode into tiny fragments in an animal that you intend to eat. I hands down with take a barnes triple shock over a berger. The barnes will kill them in the same situations the berger will but not the other way around
Not if it doesn't expand at all.... 2000fps impact velocity would be about the number a 6.5 Creedmore would impact at 600yds. To then not EXPAND or create shrapnel would be a BAD DAY. Remember Berger NEVER set out to make a hunting bullet they got branded with that by some people using them on game.
6.5 grendel 100gr Barnes TTSX all the way for deer, or maybe the 120gr nosler ballistic tip, you need good velocity in that small case for consistent expansion, just sayin....
I would like to see this same test with the Berger Match Grade VLD Hunting bullets. I've been shooting the 95 gr VLD Hunting in a .243 as a long range target load with outstanding accuracy, but haven't shot any game with them yet.
If you're loading for Creedmoor or one of the other big 6.5's, I wouldn't give up on them. Another comment mentions that Berger wants them to fragment. For Grendel, though...another direction is probably a good idea.
People watch youtube videos like this one and then think that Bergers failed, but its only because they don't know what they are talking about. The Bergers performed exactly as they are designed. Do a little research before listening to some you tuber. Bergers are designed to fragment in the vitals creating much faster cleaner kills.
I never said they failed and neither did he. There are just better options for a pure hunting bullet. I prefer expansion and weight retention. Sure these fragment and cause a lot of damage, but highly unlikely you'll get an exit wound and a decent blood trail to follow. Most of the time the deer will fall within sight with a well placed shot, but I've smoked big rutted up bucks before that have run 300 yards before tipping over.
Finding an accurate Bullet is not difficult when reloading. Playing with powder charges enough will find the sweet spot with almost any Bullet for your barrels harmonics. BUT finding one that actually performs as advertised is difficult. I chased this same problems for a long time. Start looking at more all copper bullets. Especially, ones that are CNC cut. They are pricey but it’s worth it when that elk drops in its tracks instead of running for hundreds of yards.
Have shot many deer and other game with hsm loaded ammo with the vld bullets, that is pretty common with Berger bullets minus the one that did nothing. Every animal that was taken with the Berger’s never went more than about 10 yards.
Great Vid JRB. I love this bullet but kind of disappointed in the ballistic gel performance. About how many inches would you say the fully intact mushroomed bullet and the larger core pieces from the other bullets went into the gel? Looks like for now I will stick to partitions (partition bullets shed the jacket and the core keeps penetrating. Everything I’ve ever shot with a Partition has been amazing results. I also really like game kings they are both proven performers hunting. Thanks for the vid.
18" was the average penetration for the pieces that stopped in the gel. I forgot to mention that. The first block was 15" and they went several inches into the second block.
My critique has to do with the gel set up. Instead of trying to shoot the gel at 200 yds, set it up at 25 yds, and adjust the powder charge to give the terminal velocity you are looking for. It makes testing a lot easier, more precise shot placement in the gel, and speeds everything up. That's how we test our wildcats, and have gotten superb results. Go to mdws.forumchitchat.com to see some of the videos from that testing.
Let me know what you need so I can get you to do a gmx bullet. I've used these on multiple hunts and I double lunged a caribou and it completely shattered the elbow of the animal on exit side and dropped the caribou dead in its tracks at 100 yards. 120gr gmx in 6.5 creedmoor.
Sorry as my wife said, don’t fix what ain’t broke! The Sierra hpbt and Berger hunter are junk for actually hunting with. Stay with your gut feeling and stick with eldx, sst, or accubonds, nosler partitions. I know they are popular and give great mushrooms when shot into gel but I don’t even like Barnes bullets, I’ve had too many do crazy things to deer, some zip right through if they don’t hit anything and not much damage, just hopefully good shot placement. I have had them deflect on me when shot at odd angles. So even though they are tack driver speed demon, perfect mushroom, 99% weight retention, I’m just not a fan of Barnes with on game terminal performance. I’m very impressed with the rest of Barnes qualities and tried to make them work for almost 10 years but always go back to the lead core bullets. Currently very happy with the sst and now the eldx and will probably stick to my wife’s suggestions of sticking with what works and not fixing what isn’t broken.
Why do guys always worry about a shoulder shot?? Hit them in the chest!! First Nations shoot elk and moose all the time here with 243 no problems at all
U can't expect accurate results by shooting into gel already shot into. Gel should b melted down to a solid block again 4 every bullet. I also think your driving them too fast, hence the tumbling and jackets being torn off.
Have you considered your twist rates? A tumbling bullet indicates the bullet is under-stabilized, not spinning fast enough. The faster the spin, the more violent the expansion on impact. I'm not convinced it's the bullet. Bergers usually have the opposite "problem" of "excessive" fragmentation. . . .
Thanks John. Did you give up on the 130gr in the Grendel? I am looking at a 6.5 grendel upper. Deer mainly for young hunters. Do you recommend or is it a no go in your book.?
No offense to berger. I am a big fan of their bullets in all of of my bench rest and PRS applications. But any of their bullets are terrible for big game hunting.
FYI you expect the bullet to perform like a bonded bullet. This bullet was designed to fragment. Fact. Do your research on the bullet before you test it. Except for the bullet that did not fragment like it was supposed to the rest performed as advertised. Nice video all the same. I am just trying to set things straight on the bullet and its performance. Except for the not fragmented round all performed as advertised.
My brother and I have both experienced inconsistent performance from Bergers in 7mm and 30 cal on western big game (elk, muley and pronghorn). They are accurate, I can't argue that. They are consistently the most accurate bullet in every rifle I've ever shot them in. But sometimes they pencil, sometimes they work like you see in all the videos online, and occasionally they grenade on impact and dont penetrate enough.
you might want to put a piece of soft leather over the front of the gel to offer a little resistance prier to the bullet entering the gel - as in hitting the hide of the animal you want to shoot - this might resolve the bullet tip expansion issue you were having ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-acArWsH_Kt4.html
