Trying to max out Hodgdon H4350 with the 143gr Hornady ELD-X in 6.5 Creedmoor. UPDATED 09/27/2018 - All links have been removed to comply with RU-vid content policies. www.patreon.com/reloading
Just picked up a 308 and went back and re-watched your 308 videos and man its crazy to see how far you have come with the video quality. Keep up the great work.
It never fails every time that I watch any one of these videos it makes me want to go to the bench and start working up new loads for myself in my rifle! My favorite channel on youtube bar none the hard work is greatly appreciated!
Excellent Vid JRB. I really like the format of going back and forth and discussing the results. The added MOA numbers is also great. Your videos continue to improve, all the hard work and editing does not go unnoticed. Thumbs up for sure. The T/C Compass just continues to be a great value. Mine shoots the 143 ELD-X just a little bit better with RL17 than H4350.
Thanks again for your time and knowledge, another great video. Well I tried to get the TC Compass with your advice/discussion on your site and my LGS sold out of their stock on Black Friday, so long story shorter, same LGS brought the Ruger American Predator in 6.5C, on a one day Christmas sale and I got one... Off to the races. Now I'll be taking much better notes 😉
Case head expansion tells the story, measured with a micrometer, NOT a caliper, just ahead of the extractor groove. Case head expansion over .0005 is scary territory no matter what the primers or shiny spots on the rear of the case look like.
Very good piece of information ...Im not concerned with a little shine , its getting close to head separation I focus on ...And as far as craters , ehhh , I use federal match primers , which are soft so I have craters on light loads lol
I really like all of your videos super informative and you take alot tof time to make these videos thank you I think factory load data goes off of consistent accuracy and reasonable velocity
Good video John. And an excellent demo of what happens to groups when the "best" loading is reached and then surpassed with a particular rifle/load combination. My pet load for the 143gn ELD-X is 49.5gn of RL22 which gives 2759 avg. and .460" 5 shot groups at the 100yd range from a Tikka T3X with zero pressure signs. Going hotter just made the groups open, so no point. Sorry for late response but you have so many great videos to watch I always seem to be finding another one. Thanks mate.
New sub. I've been loading my own since the '70's. Shoot a lot of .223, .308 and .300 Win Mag. Just added a 6.5 Creedmore chambered Bergara B-14 HMR, Vortex Viper PST Gen II, FFP, 5x25x50, 30 MM, with precision matched Vortex rings, 20 MOA Evolution Gun Works rail. Looking forward to working up some loads! Thanks for the data!
sjohnson1776 I have just about the same set up, cept hst sfp and zero moa nightforce rail. I just ordered my Hornady custom die set and eldx seater stem. Hopefully I’ll be loading soon as the cost of Hornady precision 143 eldx is getting expensive. But so far it’s been the best shooting factory ammo I’ve used for a hunting round. Hope to draw some blood with it in a couple of days when season opens. Please keep us updated of any pet loads!
Well Johnny another excellent video and subject matter. Getting to the point today I bought and shot my first blackpowder revolver and am loving it I shot it in the dark at about 8:30 into a birm in the back yard (just couldn't wait for tomorrow) and I'm thinking once I figure out a charge and we're it's hitting I might be able to shoot a deer with it. But that's what's going on with me thanks for the video.
Hey man loving this video so far but had to pause and type before i forgot. I use nothing but Starline small primer brass and love it. I have loaded up 2gr!!! above max with no crattering. 2 things i have different, 1 is i use remington 71/2 benchrest small primers and 2 and most probable solution is i have a JP match high pressure bolt for my ar10 i put together.
Great video!!!! I’m starting my road to developing a hunting load for my AR with the 229 Accubond LR. I really think this video on what to look for on pressure signs will definitely help.
this powder was always my go to for my Ruger 25 06 back in the 70's and 80's I would have thought the world would move on by now ... but I guess not ..!
They establish maximum loads by the average pressure. The reason the H4350 is maxed n the upper 59,000 psi range is because they found that loading higher than that maximum charge would occasionally result in pressure over 62,000
My load 43.7gr o H4350, but the gun has a longer chamber so I can load it to 2.900. Out of a 20" barrel I am getting around 2800FPS. The extra room in the case makes a huge difference.
Im not sure if you're still reading these comments or not but I'm trying to expand on your great work and want to share the results. Im using a ruger American 1:8 22" barrel. Starline brass with Winchester standard lrg primers and nosler 140 gr RDF with 0.040 jump. With h4350 I've gone from 40.6-42.8 grains with velocities ranging 2550-2730 fps. No pressure signs. Ive also tried hybrid 100v from 39.6-42.0 with velocities ranging 2576-2788 fps. No pressure signs. The 100v is producing better SD and tighter groups and it meters amazingly well. It also produces large flat spots for accuracy nodes. Thanks for what you're doing it's a huge wealth of info
I got mine out of Whittakers Guns in Kentucky. They only had 4 in stock and I got one of them for $351.00 + 15.99 shipping. This is the best deal I have seen in months.
Looking back at a precious video where you showed your bolt face, it looks to me like there may be a slight radius around the opening for the firing pin which may answer for where your primers are flowing into. It may have just been the lighting but perhaps worth checking into.
Yes! My pet load is 42.5gr of H4350 and 143 Eld-X at 2.815”. I shot some stellar groups out of my Tikka with that load. H4350 had the lowest SD by far. My smallest groups were with Winchester 760 but the SD and ES were not as low as H4350
shot the first time with my tika, using starline lr brass,147ELD-M and ramshot hunter. sd was allmost 0, shot 0,3",0,4" during barrek break in (first 25shot over 2 hours) 110Yards see sites.google.com/view/reload-cheap-subsonic/homepage
Good video, I was wondering how a chamber that is not as a tight as my defiance would be with a hot load. My concern is also with something like RL17 which isn't supposed to be as "temperature stable" if I happen to get a hot day out here. I'm also wondering if the smaller primers require a smaller firing pin. I think I might need to make another call out to defiance to get another bolt.
Johnny, H 4350's popularity is that it's temperature stable !! It's "top of the mark" stable in performance at no greater than 25 fps variation over a wide range of temperature (if my memory serves me). This reason alone makes it "#1" in powder choice.
Another reason whyI really appreciate you and your channel...typical morning for me, coffee and gun, reloading videos etc. ..you know the saying "everyone is a comedian" ? Well now everyone is a youtube channel gun and bullet Tester...Funny thing is ,there results are never because of there shooting skill(unless good results)there hand loading skill, the gun they built themselves, or there cheap low battery chronograph etc.etc....and I especially love the world ending survivalist prepper pretend navy seal operators who are going to be the only ones left on planet earth when it finally happens....Wow,the dumbing down of america is really taking hold
So, I’m eagerly watching these for guidance on 6.5CM loads for my new TC Compass. I picked up a box of factory Hornady Match tipped with 140 grain ELD - Match. They have an OAL of 2.810 inches. That is in contrast to their own current tenth edition reloading manual which specifies an OAL of 2.800! If Hornady is seating their “Match” grade factory loads .010 longer, it may be something for you to try in this series!
Seeing you are pretty slow you might be able to comprehend by now what little bit of difference you found in measuring their shelf bullets to their manual was so minimal you are insane. They do not measure each and every bullet. You think 100th of an inch is something? If you were to measure the bullets you would find more error in the bullet itself length than that. OAL's are not on the money with any bullet. Measure all the bullets in any box of ammo and they will never all be the same. 100th of an inch in OAL means nothing. Measurement to the ogive is more important than that and they aren't perfect either.
I was looking at this video since I'm looking to load a reduced recoil load for my Kimber Hunter (only 5.5 lbs without scope) for my daughter (she's only 85 lbs) to use deer hunting. My thought was using a Hornady 123gr SST or something similar with a minimum load. I use Varget for my 308 Win, but I was wondering if you could do a few tests using H4350, Varget and BLC-2. I understand most guys are looking for maximum velocities and don't mind a bit more recoil for that performance, but some of us are looking for forgiving, low-recoil rounds for children and significant others. What do you think? Sound like a good idea for a video?
Another great video! Can you revise or add a section on how the 6.5 CM compares with H4350 vs Varget powders. I believe that Varget may be a viable option when H4350 isn't available!!!
I know this video is a bit old but one thing to consider is temperature variations. I’m developing a load with 140g Berger LRBTs and N555 - not a ton of data so I’m also using Quickload. What I noticed is that the final charge on my test at 43.4 grains (matching the Vihtavouri max data for 140g projectile) seemed to be at 54k PSI in a simulation with my barrel length and seating depth. The base simulation is at 70 degrees. If I change the temps to 110 degrees - it does get that hot every so often where I shoot, the pressure gets to a near maximum - at 44 grains, I’m hitting above and at dangerous levels. Also with a 10% variation in powder burn rate - you are also approaching dangerous levels. So I could probably go a little higher but if the speed is good, the accuracy is good, why risk it while also shortening barrel life.
All reloading manuals and powder manufacturers have lowered their published maximums in the last 10 years. Also, a big problem with the 6.5 was that people were using 308 bolts and firing pins in large frame ARs and were having serious pressure issues. Now you can buy "high pressure" bolt and firing pins which have a smaller firing pin hole and thinner firing pin. and it solves the problems.
Good video man. I'm not a huge fan of the new schedule format (range, bench, repeat) but it has its benefits and will let you split up those longer videos into two desirable short ones. You'll need to come up with a cool "to be continued" transition, like the "dun dun" sound on Law & Order.
My Tikka Lite SS 6.5 Creedmoor has a long throat and plenty of room in the magazine. The 143gr Hornady ELD-X COL to fit and function in the magazine is 2.970. That's seated .025 off the lands. Accordingly, pressures and velocity are reduced. 43.7 gr of H4350 only produces 2,720 fps in Lapua brass with CCI 450 primers. No pressure signs at all and I could probably go as high as 45 grs. Base to ogive is the important measurement not COL unless you're a hunter and are limited by a short magazine.
The TC Compass in 6.5CM is the best deal on the market for distance shooting. My honey load for my Compass is Hornady brass, 42.8gr of H4350 sending a 140 ELD-M @ 2770fps. Cloverleafs at 200yds and can consistently hit 18" steel @ 1000yds. (I DO get a little bit of primer cratering with this load)
I can only get Winchester primers but plan on working up a load like yours (I’m new to reloading) do different brand large rifle primers create significant differences in pressure?
JRB the max pressure load for H 4350 could be of (1) test barrel length (2) different OAL (3) different lot numbers of the powder, one lot could be Slower or one lot could be faster. (4) Different brands of primers used. There are A LOT VARIBLES.
Actually Johnny, the pressures listed in manuals is the AVERAGE pressure for that max load. But it's listed as a max load as at least SOME of the shots hit the maximum pressures.
For the "hotter" loads, have you tried using a longer drop tube for the powder funnel? I saw you using the Hornady pink funnel directly on the case mouth. I have found (and seen videos, like moparmadman's) that show a significant increase in case capacity when using a long drop tube. In turn, that might reduce the crunchiness of those loaded rounds and lower your SD's. My belief is that the compression is inconsistent from round to round, which causes changes in the powder density and burn rate, thereby altering the velocity shot to shot. Also, have you looked at loading longer than 2.800"? My pet load is 2.840" COAL, 42.5gn H4350, CCI 200, 140gn ELD-M. Velocities are around 2775fps out of a 24" barrel with a suppressor. I powder charge by hand using a Dillon manual powder die (because I already had their 6.5 funnel) which I think is enough of a drop tube to settle the powder. No crunchiness at all and single-digit SD's. What do you think?
Johnny is with out a doubt helping others stay out of the over pressure danger and getting hurt thank you! would it be posable to have a secondary paper target and third behind the first? reason being is at different distance the bullet is trying to break the sound barrier and, will like an aircraft wing wobble giving you a different MOA and I'm interested in the massive 6.5 Creedmoor testing you have done and at what distance with what load it goes south? sorta speaking. The engineering of all is so interesting. I suggest your normal 100 yards data all ready known. 125 yards, 150, 200, what ever is possible. Might need to modify in 5 yard increments? forward or back for best results. Faster loads might be closer in breaking sound barrier or farther out depending on bullet weight. I just thought it might be fun to know as no one else does this. Thank You for a great Experience!
Hey Johnny! I am new to your channel and also a beginner in the world of rifle reloading for accuracy (things hoped and wished for). This video has brought on a question in my mind: how do companies like Nosler and Sierra come up with pressure numbers? Are they calculations or are they measured, real world? If the latter, then how is it measured? I love your channel brother. Keep em coming!
The brass is a much more reliable pressure indicator than primers just due to the inconsistency in primer construction. CCI primers in particular might never show any signs of pressure even after case extraction becomes very difficult. If you think about what it takes to get brass into the ejector hole in the bolt fase, the brass literally has to 'flow' with sufficient pressure behind it to depress the plunger so that brass can extrude into the hole in the bolt face. That is high pressure, seriously high to use your words. If you disassemble the bolt, don't be surprised to find some fine brass shavings inside from the brass extrusion into the ejector hole. Clear signs to stop and back off the powder charge. Consider one of the suppressor wraps, that is what most competitive shooters use to mitigate the mirage off the suppressor.
Here's a load I've worked up for my 6.5 creedmoor that shoots perfectly in my ruger using WLR ptimers and 39.5 grains of IMR 4166 under both the 143 gr ELDX bullet and 95 gr v-max with no pressure signs on the case's and I'm only having to use a neck sizing die
the primer cratering tells me that the compass' bolt face has an enlarged firing pin hole- primers are still rounded on their edges....there's nothing you can do about the bolt outside of sending it back to T/C, explaining your findings. Personally, I'd go for primer flattening, looking for ejector markings, then back off one grain as my absolute max. Good Subject Upload-
42.5 was my best load with a 24" barrel, my buddy that I load for is 42.4 with a 20" barrel. I found groups widen out past 43 so it wasn't worth punishing my brass. Past 43.5 I was crunching powder and heavy or sticky lifters. Your SD is alot better than mine with large CCI BR primers. Best I can get is 8 to 10
Anything under 10 is considered excellent in reality. That is with a minimum of a 10-shot string. You should be shooting all of them with a fouled barrel as well because a clean bore shot could screw up the SD.
I don't know if I'm noticing a pattern with this rifle or if it's just that I want to see it shoot better. Most of the "best" groups you shoot seem fire the first two to three shots within a half MOA. Then, the last two to three shots seem to walk off. I'm wondering if this is a bedding/heat issue. You could try taking your best load, shoot a three shot group, let the gun cool for 10 minutes, and then shoot another 3 shot group at the same spot. Of course, this could just be my curious nature playing tricks on me. Good luck and keep the videos coming!
JRB I just watched this video for the fifth time. I have seen some talk about large primers flattening and destroying the primer pockets after 7 or 8 firings. I assume this is due to the outward pressure the primer is inflicting on the case head. The small rifle primer flows out of the center of the primer around the gap between the firing pin and the bolt, thus less outward expansion on the case head. I wonder if the bolt was bushed, would this cause the primers to flatten due to a lack of area for the primer to flow to? And perhaps cause premature loose primers? Perhaps someone that has experienced this, and had their bolt firing pin bushed, may chime in and tell me if I am totally off base on my theory. Thanks again for a great job on the video!
All your videos are great, do you have any info on the 6.5 PRC loads, with 140-143 gr seeds, only have some IMR 4350 ,Superformance , H4895 and varget to work with. 24" barrel Bergara, just can't find one gram of powder these days. Thanks in advance if your do.
I know this is an old video, but I got a Savage Axis II Precision in .223 Rem that right out of the box, (had a huge pit in the bore, but that's a different story) was popping primers with middle of the road loads. I did a temp fix by switching to CCI 41 primers, but that shouldn't be anywhere near necessary with a bolt action. I ended up with a better fix by replacing the firing pin springs. I can use standard primers now with high end loads.
I run 6.5 creedmoor 140gr nosler custom competition H-4350 43.5gr. 2845fps, SD 3.2 I think it was sub.5 moa with no pressure signs. Witch worry's me a bit. I'm running star line small primer Brass.
I've had nothing but good luck with IMR 4451 (Which is damn close to h4350) in my 6.5 Streedcred. Trying out another enduron powder in my 308 today (4166)
I’ve loaded 6.5 Creedmoor with Hornady 143 gr. ELD-X bullets. My best load is 42 grains of Winchester StaBall 6.5 powder. Using Peterson brass, and CCI large rifle primers. IMR 4350, H 4350, and 6.5 StaBall powders are very similar. But 6.5 StaBall is ball powder, and loads easier.
Been checking out your channel and liking what I'm seeing. I have tried SR brass in the Creedmoor and the 260 Rem, the old Remington SR BR brass. I've used faster powders (IMR 4064, PP 2000 MR) as well as IMR 4350 here in western CO and I get consistent hang-fires with CCI 450 and BR primers. Temperatures at which these loads were tested was 65-80 degrees. I am curious if you notice any differences in performance based on temps where you live?
Your lower pressure node is between 40.3gr and 40.6gr and your upper pressure node is between 41.6gr and 41.9gr. It is indicated by the extremely low SD and minimal change in velocity. Can you shoot some loads in .1gr increments and adjust seating depth? I wonder if the functional accuracy of that barrel is .8MOA as you've seen or possibly better with some COAL and charge weight tweeks?
I think it's barrel heat.I have the Ruger American and it is not a medium barrel. I think, but not that the barrels are comparable. I start losing group size after two rounds. I am impressed with your three shot groups with that barrel. I know the medium barrels will hold group size to three rounds and start losing at 4 rounds. Just a thought and thanks!
Good vid ... Im running IMR 4350 Hornady 168g bthp , and I ran a similar test , I found a mid node in the 41.3 area , 2820 avg , just moved up to max load(42) and found a high node at 42.6 area, i had I think 2 shells of 20 with just a smidge of ejector mark(could have been the primers) but other than that no signs of pressure prob at all ,forgot my chronograph but im guessing somewhere in the mid to high 2900's. Ill find out this weekend
I have a 6.5 Creedmoor Tikka Hunter and a Leupold scope on top. I have watched numerous videos that you published about reloading the 6.5 Creedmoor shell. I am planning on figuring out which load works the best in my rifle. And I plan on using some of your same technique. I have two questions. 1. I think it is well established that h4350 is accurate and versatile, but in the absence of h4350 what would be your next go to powder? Ramshot Hunter, reloader 17, or something I have not thought of yet? 2. Rather than finding out how much powder we can put in a cartridge and burn each time we pull the trigger oh, it makes more sense to me oh, that's a question we should be asking is how little powder can I put in the cartridge and still have a consistent accurate group?
Have you tried repeating your "whippy" video with the Creed? I just tried 2 different styles of muzzle devices, not suppressors, and POI dropped 5-6 inches and opened groups up terribly.
I shoot the same brass same powder and 140 berger hybrid or 144 berger hybrid. My load currently is 41.8gr of 4350 shooting .6 to .7 moa at 200yds. When I went up in charge 42.5gr and above I did see the same issue with the ejector on the brass. Now all this being said at about 200 rounds I had to rebuild the bolt head due to an ejector failure something to consider.
I used 147ELD-M in my tika tx3-a1. I tried 40,41,42grn Hunter, brandnew lr starline brass,s&b primers at samii length. 10 pieces each. The 41 shot 2 groups from 0,1" with the first (ever) loaded and shot.(after the 20 shots barrel break in) sites.google.com/view/reload-cheap-subsonic/homepage
Curious if you can tell me the thompson center full jam measurement(coal) 140eld match. My ruger hunter american is 2.870 and my buddies savage 110 is 2.815 ,just curious what the compass is shorter or longer chamber????
42.3gr. H4350 using Norma brass and my 22in. Barrel ar10 gas gun I'm @ ~2725fps but see ejector swipes on my brass. 42.5gr. Got me up to almost 2800fps (shooting 140gr barnes match burners) but was raising burrs from ejector and blew out a primer on one of my brass that had a few firings on it, so backed it down to 42.3gr and seems to be a great load!
Update:. So started crimping and backed off the lands a bit more. Also added more buffer weight because bolt was unlocking prematurely. Up to 2800fps @ 42.3gr.
Hi, I just recently bought a Ruger American Predator chambered in 6.5 CM, 8 twist 22 inch barrel. Its obviously a caliber thats "all the rage" at the moment and the powders that I want to play with are harder to find than Escobars millions. Mainly H4350 (weird huh?) Ive been reserching H100V a little bit, and was wondering what your thoughts are on that powder or if you've used it. Im gonna be shooting Hornady 140 ELD Match bullets. Any feedback would be much apreciated. Awesome channel by the way. I subscribed after the first video I watched.
OCwyoProud 307 I have the same gun and use both powders and the 140 ELD Match. Now I'm not saying you should try my loads, develop your own. I have gone all the way up to 42 grains of 100V COAL at 2.800 and VEL of 2760fps with a .75 MOA @100 yards with a 5 shot group. My best groups were 41.2 and 41.4 both around .6 MOA. My next test will be 41.3 and play with the COAL. H4350 shoots about the same but a little slower and much more expensive. Oh one other thing the 100V is so much easier to work with.
