This is incredibly useful, Bill, thank you! I’ve been shopping for a safe, myself, and also became frustrated with how difficult it became to determine the security or fire safety of safes from what the company boasts about in their literature. I now feel much better equipped to assess my potential purchase.
This is a great and much-needed review of safes! I was also mystified when shopping for a safe, and your video puts all the information in one well-organized place. Anyone looking for a safe needs to see your video. One of the most valuable youtube videos of all time!
Glad it was helpful! This video is a bit out of the ordinary for me but safe questions were always coming up and, since I was in the process of buying a new one myself, I thought some people might find it useful. I was super-surprised about how MUCH there is to know about safes and, more importantly, where manufacturers could cut corners to safe $$ (for themselves) and deprive end-users of security.
@@bosnianbill the only thing you didn't mention was something we had to consider when we had a professional safe installed. The floor. Ours was heavier but still. The guy that brought it up 3 flights of stairs to our workshop said "you have concrete floors here but do you know how thick it is or is it reinforced. The reason I ask is that this safe will be pushing down all of its weight, every second of every day for years. And what I've seen is the concrete stress cracks and in one case sank through the garage floor" ... just a long term issue to consider Bill. Brilliant video thank you.
As a fire captain who has seen how these perform in the real world, I recommend at least 60 minutes at a minimum of 1000°. Just as with security there are layers to fire resistance. Numbers are a salesan's friend, not yours. Unfortunately I consider 30 minutes at any temperature to be like using an abloy padlock with a cheap chain. You're hedging a bet that the attack will only be on the lock. I've seen too many Australian art projects come out of safes where they put their money into security and cheaped out on fire rating. All that said, you did an amazing job with this video. Now I don't have to spend time explaining this to friends. I can just send them your video. Especially the part about putting a cheap safe inside to up the rating for the more delicate items. Only thing I would add is that security can be increased by not advertising you have something worth stealing...
I opened a safe 2 weeks ago that had been in a fire. If you heard about the Phoenix/Talent fires in Oregon it was in one of those houses. The safe and the car body shell inside the garage was all that was left. Needless to say, everything inside the safe was damaged. All the ammo fired off. The safe had 1.5" gypsum board and 1/8" steel all around. The top and all 4 sides including the door was buckled.
@@600miles Don't store your ammo in your safe with your gun or more delicate items. I suppose some people feel the need for security for the ammo or are required by law to lock up the ammo. In that case, use a separate safe for security.
@@600miles Ammo should be kept in a smaller "useless" safe or simple container, IMO. Expect that it will all cook off in a fire and store it well away from the safe. Same with flammable things like gun cleaning solvents and gunpowder. Those are *outside* the safe, elsewhere. If the guns are long-term stored, obviously unload them as well. As for precious items like film and so on, the advantage of a small safe in a safe approach as well is that you take that and toss it in your car trunk before you evacuate. Grab the computers/laptops/etc, and all of your other critical items are in one thing with a handle on it. Easy 5-10 minutes to get gone and down the road.
I built my own. If your handy with a welder you can save a bunch. A simple 1/4" steel box with a decent pad lock is enough to make life tough for your average burglar. If you want more resistance you can make it double wall and fill it with concrete and be creative with your aggregate choices, perlite for thermal insulation, carbide scrap for grinder resistance, etc. If you really want to make it fire proof, it's hard to beat an in-ground safe with concrete poured around it.
@@tthomassims9005 Not a bad choice, but would get very expensive very fast. If you have any CNC companies near you, they generally sell their used carbide inserts to a scrap dealer. Most would be happy to sell them to someone who pays a bit better. Still far cheaper than new carbide.
As a claims adjuster, a few things you can do to protect yourself (and significantly increase the speed of your claim settlement) are: 1 take pictures of your home (from all directions, getting each exterior elevation in at least one picture) and contents (even just an overview of a room can be significantly helpful, but take a photo from all four corners of each room and you'll be my hero). 2 list your personal property (if you want to be able to replace "everything," then list "everything"). Ask your agent if they have a spreadsheet that you could use to ensure you get all the info you would need. 3 sketch out your home's floorplan (doesn't have to be to scale or incredibly accurate, but approximate room measurements and placement makes all the difference). Save all of that offsite to ensure you have it if you aren't home/prepared when disaster hits. I just got home from a 2-month tour in CA to help with wildfire claims, and I could have a total loss claim paid and closed within a week with the info above. We could be looking at your policy term limits for the claim (for my company, 2 years) if we're relying on your ability to remember every detail.
In the UK, we have a similar rating system. It works on a cash rating system (the valuable rating is 10 x the cash rating). £1000 cash rating is a tin box. £4,000 is grade S2, £6,000 is Eurograde 0, £10,000 is Eurograde 1, £17,500 is Eurograde 2, £35,000 is Eurograde 3 and £60,000 is Eurograde 4. We have a grade 4 in stock, it has 2 Mauer Safe 11 Lever Locks and weighs 320kg.
In terms of fire safety in the UK, there are two standards, paper safe and media safe. 30 mins, 60 mins and 120 mins in each category. FYI there are nomex wallets, that can keep FIRE SAFE, small amounts of money or documents inside a secure safe, these are not tested but may be useful.
I Got lucky, my local Sears closed and among the items for sale was the jewelry department safe. They wanted $1000 for it but I offered $500 and got it. The problem was, I hadn't seen it and as it turned out it weighed 2700 pounds. I had to rent a forklift to move it. Needless to say it now resides in my garage and I am comfortable knowing it won't be stolen anytime soon. The side walls are 1 and 1/4 thick solid steel and the door is 1 and 1/2 solid steel. With the same type of keypad you have shown. Inside the lock there are 2 spring loaded glass rods that if broken will automatically lock the door if tampered with. Word of caution, that type of keypad has a factory bypass code, it should be included with your paperwork (which is recommended you not keep in the safe). This code can be changed as well, and I would do it. I also have a gun safe much like yours that I inherited when my brother passed away, and yes, I did know the combination.
Bill, for most consumer safes/security containers, you can easily gasket the door with the fiberglass rope used for wood stove doors. The seal that you showed being impinged with the torch is what's called intumescent material. This was a favored fire protective material used on jet engine cowlings until around 25-30 years ago when ablatives and now metal foil fire blankets have won favor for ease of replacement. Storing ammunition in the bottom of the safe is also a good means from having someone tipping a safe. With a large enough foot print and weight in the bottom, the smash and grab guy will try brute forcing the lock, and give up after knocking off the lock face plate and denting the door edges from prying. Onto the Golden Rod or fan circulation inside a safe. You're better off using a silica desiccant and drying it weekly or monthly depending on humidity levels. Desiccants typically use a color change indicator so that you know when it's time to dry for reuse.
Just bolt it down. Solves all kinds of attack vectors. Also, a low wattage incandescent lightbulb is the cheapest dehumidifier you can get. That Golden Rod is just a resistive heating element. Might as well get some photons while you’re burning all that power!
Routing electricity inside is an additional risk. If some electrical device fails inside the safe, it could set it on fire, from inside, i.e. bypassing all the fire defefnses.
Tip: Put everything in seal-able (zip-lock) plastic bags in the safe. Especially in the inner unlocked safe. This keeps the smoke and moisture out of the items you are storing. In a fire, it is the smoke, smoke acid, and water, after the fire is out, that does most of the damage. I learned this from a 2004 series of a computer businessman who lost his company because a small device caught fire on his table. The smoke, smoke acid, and water destroyed his computers. He stored his floppy disks in sandwich bags on top of the table and they were saved. The papers and items stored in his fireproof safe were damaged by the smoke acid while waiting for the insurance company to process the claim. Plastic bags keep the smoke and moisture out, even it they are left out on the kitchen counter. For big stuff, use the vacuum sealed bags, for storing your off-season clothes, to store the bulky items.
A police officer for the major city I live near said that home burglaries are down where as commercial burglaries are up. Why? Because everyone has been working from home.
@@antoy384 Nah, we're looking at offices that are suddenly unguarded 24x7 because everybody is at home dialing in to work from home. Burglar can break in and steal literal truckloads of stuff any night of the week without getting disturbed by someone working late to finish stuff or fulfill last minute online orders.
My great uncle sold safes and vaults when I was growing up; what I learned from him has framed my security perspective to date. A big thing yo know is that most consumer products sold as “safes” and “fire/gun safes” are actually “Residential Security Containers”. Combining Fire rated RSCs with higher security containers, like 1/4” steel security container, inside can be a good compromise. Regardless of what you use remember to bolt things down.
I agree. I have an old safe I inherited from my grandpa but I'm sure the fire rating isnt so good but security is great! So I put my sentry fire safe inside of it and boom I have peace of mind!
Absolutely fantastic information, Bill! I went through nearly the exact same processes about 5 years ago, while determining what safe would best suit our needs. This video would have saved me a lot of time!
Definitely a good value. It's amazing how many people think the little safes the get at a big box store are "safe", they are "a big box", that can be opened in 2 minutes with a crowbar. Thanks Bill, as always you're awesome.
Great information you are providing. Always amazed on how well engineered the old safe were made. I am so happy to have my gand dad's safe from the 40's and 50's. Bauche safe with fichet double locking mechanism circular key and manual code. Weigh of abou 1700 lbs...
Excellent video! Zero sales pitch, real nerdy customer analyzing the market with information from real life experts. This video will skyrocket because of the usefulness. I watch your videos for fun and I never had the intention to pick a lock, but this video also gave good practical life advice.
Hi bill, the other thing most people don't look at is the construction of the live bolts. Some manufacturers just weld the bolt to a bar on the inside of the door. Ideally, each bolt should move through a bushing a few inches from the hole in the door.
Excellent information for safe safe shopping! I've heard that in a pinch, oven bags for roasting turkeys can help be used inside safes to help delay damage of paper. It said to have a few sacrificial sheets on top and bottom. Those layers may char first before your real papers start to char\burn. Results may vary. Check your local listings for price and availability. :-)
I have seen high price data storage safes that use actual wooden inserts to delay heat delivery to those computer backups. The wood was of cause chosen specifically to reach specific total fire ratings for safe plus insert. So that inner Sentry box could be replaced with a simple wooden storage box that can be cooked to 350°F on it's outside while keeping the inside below 177°F for an additional 30 to 60 minutes. A kitchen oven could provide a test for that ability, checking how long to bake until a thermometer reaches 177°F.
Very nice video. As a software guy for 40+ years you covered the highlights as far as back ups, plastic stuff and so forth. But if your outer safe is anywhere near the fire I would suggest you ask the fireman to put some water on the big safer just to cool it down. Or put it this way, if the big safe is hot to the touch, spray it with a garden hose until it’s much cooler. Otherwise the exterior heat could get into the small safe.
Bill, the cheapest safe in the world is just fine provided you pay the tax stamp for a Claymore. Mount in rear of safe, Front Toward Enemy, and never forget to deactivate upon opening. In all seriousness, thanks for posting. GSA security containers with Mosley combination locks also work well. Not as pretty, but a thief isn’t walking off with it.
Just before I watched this video I got news my sisters storage unit was broken into in San Diego, CA. They pried open the electronic lock on the building and sheared the lock off. The group who robbed the place were caught earlier this year, but they couldn't keep them in jail because of COVID and released them. They went right back to stealing.
I'm surprised you didn't talk about Sturdy Safes. They are more expensive and not UL rated but the steel gauge is much thicker (7Ga or 4Ga) and the bolt work is very robust. You should check out their videos.
Great video Bill. I did all this research the hard way many years ago and you covered nearly everything. One item to note: Another way the manufacturers cheap out is the sides. Lower gauge steel and if the sides are exposed, cutting attacks with cheap harbor freight tools are very quick and effective. One way to mitigate that is careful location planning and those bolt downs. At least install it right up against a wall on one side and then maybe bolt down something difficult to cut through right next to it. This is why you see many safes installed in “alcoves” in some environments. If you can’t get a tool in there... Anyway. Great job on the video. It’ll get people to thinking harder about their safe and what they want it to really do. Oh another tip: If confused about what to get, and as you probably know (!) often pro locksmith shops are really “security shops” and they can not only recommend a safe but also look over all the other things around it that affect access, speed, etc... and make other recommendations. An example would be the neighbor near you... those ground floor windows... how to slow up someone there... how to alarm / alert when someone breaks in so they’re time limited to mess with the safe itself... etc etc etc. Security is always a complete plan, not just one tool. The safe is just a tool. A means to an end... Love the videos.
The internal document safe should still be locked otherwise it may not protect your things as well or at all. The ratings are all designed with a locked door/lid in mind.
Craigslist is a good place to look for safes. I got a 2,000 lb monster TL-30 safe that came out of a credit union for $600. Places like banks and pharmacies are required to have certain levels of protection by their insurance companies so if you can find a used safe from one of those places it will be heavy duty. They will often be happy to give you a deal because they don't want to mess with moving it.
A local locksmith is a good route to get a safe and then have them install it professionally. I've done a bunch of these and people that come into the shop get a rundown of the research I did, rather than what they have to figure out. I find it weird that your local shop didn't try to sell you on something worth shopping local for, but not everyone is a salesman. Getting a safe online will save you some money, but we constantly get safes with major dings and damage that then have to be returned which is on us when it happens and not up for the customer to figure out for themselves. Having help when programming these things is also very important for a lot of people, or a necessity in the dial configurations. Anyways, great video resource for people shopping, keep up the good work Bill.
If you can put the safe in a closet, install two layers of 5/8 drywall to the inside of the closet for extra fire proofing and check for a local door supply company for a replacement fire rated door ,at least 90 minutes, with a deadbolt lock lock for added security. this should add an extra 60 minutes to your fire rating and extra Burger rating. Mac w/ Arlington lock
10:40 bolts on most quality safes will be mounted so that they can rotate. This prevents burglars from sawing or angle-grinding through them. 10:30 hardplate will not slow down drilling, it will pretty much stop anyone that doesn't have the proper tools. Regular HSS drills are close to useless on hardplate. It even slows you down if you do have the proper drill bits.
One thing Ive read, is that if there is a fire, you need to remove anything that can be corroded as soon as possible. The fire protection method in lots of safes use gypsum board which produces steam as part of ablative cooling. This effectively keeps temperatures down in the safe, but after a fire if left to sit it can cause everything inside the safe to be destroyed, especially electronics and guns.
Fun fact; the RSC/TL-5 rating doesn't require that the professionals be quiet. They can be as loud as they want. The actual time needed to break in quietly is much, /much/ longer.
I have always felt that by the time you have a person with a bag of tools sitting in front of your safe with a mind towards breaking it...you have much bigger issues than a few hundred dollars spent on a safe is really doing much about. As long as they can't break it open with a crowbar or walk off with it, then you have probably raised the bar higher than matters.
Lots of information Bill. I also never knew there was so much to know about safes. You must have lots of cash, jewellery and firearms to store.... also all of your Ratyoke picks! :) 😁👍
My Stealth UL28 arrived this past week, purchased in no small part to your helpful information I first saw in these videos a couple years ago. I wanted to thank you for the advise and hope you're doing well these days.
That's a lot of safe for the money and I very much like the power point/USB feature. For anyone out there wanting the very best in fire resistant gun safes the two brands that stood out in research done after the Camp Fire in California are Liberty and Champion Safe. Both will be considerably more than the one featured here but if you need the best you pay for it. For most people in suburbia the one Bill bought is fine, I'd own one.
A few years ago I bought a TL-15 rated safe that was also fire-rated for one hour at 1500 degrees. It was only 38" tall and weighed 775 lbs. The door alone weighed about 250 lbs. For the house we lived in at the time I figured the only safe place for it was the basement. I bought the safe online and had it delivered to a local moving company that also moved safes. The delivery guys started to move it down the stairs with a stair-climber dolly, but it was so heavy that after only one step a bolt snapped on the dolly and they almost lost control and let it crash down the stairs, but I rushed to help and we managed to wrestle it back onto the floor. They gave up and left. I had to find another safe-moving company, and after lifting off the door to lighten the safe, they managed to get it down the stairs. It was obvious it was never coming back up, so it stayed with the house when we moved.
Not to sound like I’m self promoting, but I also made a video regarding burglary and how lockpicking fits in as a percentage, turns out about 19,000 cases of burglary via lockpicking happen in the US yearly. Despite lockpicking as a hobby growing in popular culture, it still remains a relatively small threat in context to the greater umbrella of burglaries
Two things you didn’t suggest . If it’s in the basement why not put in a fire sprinkler and hide it. If they don’t see it they won’t try to get in it. I had a sentry safe and it took nothing to break into with a hammer and screw driver. Nice vid BB, YOU AND LP lawyer are great.
A lot of good info for some people who get lost with everything, but you forgot to talk about the make up of doors. That safe looks like a composite door. Also I would love to see the bolt work and internals. I do safe and vault work and would love to own a TL30, but that price tag 😬. Lol
Also Bill I forgot to mention, don't use those bolts. Go to home depot and get yourself some red head bolts, they are much thicker and will be more secure.
I went through a 4 month search for the safe I landed on. I went through the same exact thing you did from the mere hundreds to outrageous thousands, tool ratings, fire ratings and decoding them. Great tip for anyone actually reading this; wait till black Friday, deals on safes can be as high as 500$ off. I think you did a great job by alluding to the cost benefit of buying a safe that fits individual needs. I would have liked to see more emphasis on the locking mechanisms, re-lockers and hardened anti drill plates for physical protection but you make the video that much longer with all the variation. I'm also glad you mentioned the average time spent in the home as a smash and grab type scenario. Physical location of the safe has a lot to do with that scenario, cause 8 mins on a safe with a metal saw to the side because you have it in the garage vs. the basement; or the complete removal of the safe into a pickup, could mean you keeping your stuff or not. Overall great video, I like that you took the time to not necessary talk about locks and picking, but lent us a little bit about your life outside of locks and your safe struggles.
Thanks Bill! It's great variety of information for the channel. We love this channel for the lock picking, but passing on information like this is just as valuable to us. 👍
A better option are Sturdy Safes. Until this year they were the same price and now are just a bit more expensive. They don’t come with useless drywall “fireproofing” though you can add ceramic wool insulation as an option. They use 7 gauge (3/16”) on the body and 0 (5/16”) on the door (thicker steel is an option). Weights are comparable too so consider how much of a safe’s weight is just drywall...
I am recently retired from the safe and lock business after 40 years. I have some photos and videos you might find interesting on safes and safe opening. I don't know how to contact you.
Hi, Bill. This video is very helpful. I have been robbed of everything of value in my possession. It is heartbreaking. It was tracked to a swap meet. Nothing could be recovered. But it is just stuff, and I only miss my fancy adjustable air-mattress! hahaha! It was the comfiest bed I ever had. But now, time has passed by, and I never think about it anymore. If I am ever in such a situation again, I will have a safe that can't be hauled away. I only had a fire safe. Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
I'd have thought the LockLab was the most secure location in the state.😂 . Add a fridge and a toilet and that thing is nicer than some studio apartments. . Wait, so Farenheit 451 isn't the temperature paper burns, it's the temperature *money* burns? Knowing Bradbury, that makes so much sense.
Bill, I'd be really curious to see what's behind the cover on that door. I know it was popular for a while with residential safe makers to put inch or inch and a half bolts on the outside for show but behind the cover they're really just threaded onto a 1/2 inch or 3/8 inch rod. In the pictures you showed in this video, the destroyed safes that had the bolts bent over very likely were built that way.
I really want to applaud your use of primary sources for your data. We need a heck of a lot more of that to dig us out of this echo chamber type discussions we all have lately. Well done.
If you check SafeandVaultStore, they have their in house brand TL-30 vaults for about $4000 for the basic version, starting at 2300lbs. Great value but still an absolute beast of a vault. I’m not sponsored or endorsed by them, just a great product to recommend.
Thoroughly fascinating - not something that's quite as common here in the UK (at least not for non-commercial use) has definitely made me consider fire-proofing certain items that are sentimentally valuable. Great vid 👍
Lots of good info, and points to look at when purchasing a safe! Good stuff as always Bill! Your opinions and points of view on security are greatly valued 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Hi Bill, I live in the UK and although the requirements here are a bit different (no guns generally), your advice is very thorough and much appreciated. Take care and I hope you never have problems.
Excellent review of safes. As you say, many people go for the cabinets thinking that’s what they need without thinking of the outcome of a fire etc. We had a couple of thefts from my place of work, and the ‘guy in charge’ got 100 small safes for each cabin. Unfortunately they came from a well known DIY store ( they were Smith & Locke) had no rating; and I found that there was 3 ways to bypass the lock mechanism; and I’m still a novice at this ‘locksport’ game 😁
I wonder if a relocker mechanism is a good idea for gun owners in high earthquake risk zones. Following an earthquake is probably a time when a gun owner may want access to their defense tools the most, finding the relocker has made your combination useless in that moment might be a bad thing
If I may add a second thought Stop putting up "protected by S&w" or glock, springfield etc stickers on your home and vehicle. Don't advertise to criminals that you have a locker full of guns in your home. Stolen guns are of high value in the drug trafficking community, they can be traded directly for drugs or sold for cash. Criminals know that you can only conceal and carry so many guns. They may bet that something of value may be left accessible when you leave. As noted, these are likely drug addled minds, compelled by a desire for their next fix. This desire can diminish and outweigh the fear of an armed occupant. Stop advertising what you have. Even if everything you own is secured, your family may suffer the mental anguish of having their home invaded, worse a desperate criminal may force you to dispatch them in front of your children.
Jerry vibration has no effect on a relocker. Only if the back cover of the lock screws were loose then vibration could set it off but the scews should not normally be loose anyway. Relockers only fire under violent attacks such as punching. Thanks.
@@jerryfick613 and don't wear 8 guns to the coffee shop either. It just shows that you have eight guns that can be stolen - oh, and that you probably don't know how to fire, maintain, or store them properly, since the only reason you have them is to prop up your ego. Don't mimic the loathsome, cowardly Gravy Seals. Guns are tools, nothing more; treat them with respect.
Great walktrough in the path of safes. I can add an personal expirience. Do not and I mean do not let a 5 year old play with the combination lock! We had friends at home and their kid had a problem to sit still but fascinated by pressing the lock thogh it beeped for each press. I thought what harm can that do the safe should be secure right? Nah in some way he managed to break the circuit board to the keypad. Safe were also equipped with tamperlock that locks the rods. It took the locksmith 2 days to drill the safe. Ad it were a lot of different materials. Steel, concrete, plaster, brass and copper. Abit confusing with all these materials but explained at least that brass in the inner layer were to stop sparks when drilling if there were explosives in tbe safe. So an additional advice. - No 5 year olds near the safe. 😨
This is why hoarding cash isn't a wise decision. Precious metals better hold their value and can't be easily destroyed by fire. They might change their shape, but they'll retain their values. Very useful video Bill. Lots of research put into one source.
The lengths Bill will go to so all his bling is kept safe. Great info and when you consider the weight and that it's bolted down, it ain't gonna be going anywhere soon. The ultimate test is he and LPL trying to get in non destructivly.
Good information bill. Not sure it's that smart giving specifics of which safe you have and what manufacturer makes the electronics that control the lock. If there's a barcode or safe number outside the safe, you might want to remove it and store that somewhere else, just in case the number is related to an override code. It would be useful if it can be bolted to a wall on the back, bottom and side, so it can be secured in a corner of a room. You could even fit a tracker inside, and connect an alarm to its power supply. I like your idea of the firesafe for sensitive storage media. You would probably need something similar for storing ammo too (I'm guessing that's temperature sensitive!)
Hopefully you put it in your basement because if you have a fire the floor will giveaway and your safe, because of the weight, will deform and will let water, fire and smoke to get in. A good safe will also address that issue and it will be on the label but I doubt that those safe cabinet can survive a drop.
One comment I'd add, from recent experience, is if you have an electronic lock make sure it's externally serviceable. My safe had a LaGard lock (3700 series), and the connection between the input pad and the lock mechanism was permanently attached to the input pad. Luckily (for certain values of the word) I was able to repair the pad well enough to eke out one more open, and replaced it with an S&G mechanical lock. However, S&G electronic locks--I believe--have the same wire attached to the locking mechanism, so the input pad can be replaced without access to the inside of the safe.
Gun safes with Digital locks are the easiest to drill and open. Just slide off keypad and if you know where to drill, 5 to 15 minutes. Also, I have been hired 3 times by safe manufacturers to open failed digital locks. Of course they supply a new lock and if you do the repair correctly redrilling in the same location is harder next time. Get a nice mechanical dial lock by S&G as a minimum. You only want a digital if you are into it 30 times a day like the local weed dealers here in Oregon.
you can significantly increase the fireproofing by using intumescent paint to create a carbon layer barrier to whatever you're trying to protect and probably will cost a lot less than replacing everything in a fire. There is also homemade starlite recipes that you can apply too if you want.
