1887 Winchester - The Rube Goldberg Device of Shotguns 

Don't forget the Australian market. back when the jailers banned semi-autos and pump-action shotguns, they completely forgot that lever action shotguns existed.

You forgot the biggest reason that gun is highly desirable - "lever gun fun" and "big lever gun more funner" This is my biggest reason for wanting one

Terminator 2. Thats Why.

Your discipline at not saying the "Goddamn it" out loud during the malfunctions is impressive.

"I need your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle". I have to agree. Pop culture made that shotgun popular lol.

I have been using an 1887 replica for my cowboy matches for several years. The Chiappa is a very nice reproduction of the Winchester 1887 shotgun however my ching-chou Chinese replica works great and cost one-third of the Chiappa. The secret of using the 1887 is using 2 1/2" shotgun shells. The original 1887 receiver was designed for 2 1/2 inch brass shotshells. The modern 2 3/4" shotgun shells sometimes catch on the chamber edge during ejection which results in a bad ejection. RTS shotshells sells 2 1/2" target loads that work outstanding in the 1887. My theory is the repros are chambered for 2 3/4 inch shotshells however the receiver dimensions are the same as the original designed for 2 1/2 inch shotshells. At least that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

It might be strange and have some odd quirks, but that is why the 1887 and the LeMat revolver personally appeal to me

The 2 3/4" shotgun shell wasn't standard before 1925(ish). Prior to that the standard was 2.5" and that produces some of the issues with antique repeaters, especially upon ejection. When that 2 3/4" inch hull opens the front actually brushes the front of the action as you eject which is why you need that "forceful" ejection. The gun was designed for 2.5" shells and you're shooting 2 3/4" shells. With some calipers you can measure the length of various brands of shells and you'll find they differ slightly from company to company. You'll want to measure fired hulls because most of that length difference is because of how they are crimped. Choose the company with the shortest hulls and you'll have fewer issues.

Pop culture has not lied to me, I don't care what issues they have, it's the Terminator 2 shotgun and a browning design, it's a certified classic in my book

in the words of marge simpson "I just think they're neat"

Thanks Karl, I appreciate your honesty on that 1887. I love old western guns and have thought a lot of getting one. I believe I'll think about it a little longer. Thank you for all your hard work and time Sir.

I guess this design didn't evolve so that the solution to the carrier screws getting loose would be locking screws like the Auto-5s did eventually.

Do you need one? No. Are they practical? No. Are there better shotguns? Yes. Is it just freaking cool and thats why you should get one? Hell yes.

Hey hey, @InrangeTV I'm a gunsmith from Hungary (But nowadays anybody can claim that) and when we got double barrel shotguns in school for fixing and cleaning and whatnot, most of the people (With external Hammer Designs) complained about the hammer screws coming loose all the time. What we usually did was that we drilled out the screwholes, and put a negative thread in it (Negative compared to theoriginal threading) so when the hammer strike, it actually tightens the screws instead of loosening them. Maybe it would work on a Winchester 1887 as well, who knows?

The story of the 1887 never fails to bring a chuckle. JMB must have thought, even if he never said "I told you so".

The rundown I've been waiting for on my favourite gun! Why do I want it... I took a chance on a Chinese repro for cheap and it became my favourite gun of all time. I always walk away from shooting it with a big smile on my face, the feeling of levering in 12 gauge shells is such a unique and fun feeling. It being John Browning's red headed step child is also a cool historical anecdote on it, and a credit to his ability to just make what he was asked. It has its annoyances and quirks, but it fits me like a glove. Cheap to shoot, and it's been fully adequate for my introduction to grouse hunting. Love the 1887, every quirk and problem and perk.

I just got one of the new Cimarron versions and am extremely happy with it. Smooth as butter action. The carrier comes up cleanly when you reach bottom of the cycle stroke and it feeds well. So a big thumbs up on this incarnation of the gun.

It is a absolutely uncanny. For the last 3 weeks I have been really considering getting an 1887. I researched its quirks and had basically found all the issues with the gun from other people and still wanted it. I hadn't even seen your competition video. Now seeing this and your own issues you'e had...I still want it. Just have to save up and bide my time to get it. Is it the most effective tool? No. Would I be remiss in buying a pump alternative? No. Is it better than no tool? Yes. Will I feel like a cowboy? Yes. So its worth it.

Why want one? My Dad used a 12 and a 10 gauge in the late 1930's. Times were tough. He said he made sinkers out of his slugs and slugs from sinkers depending on food availability.

When I was a kid, I hunted with an original 1887 12 gauge. It had a 30" Full choke, and whether hunting deer or ducks, it did the job. Heavy as all get out, though.

I love my 1887. Though technically it’s a 1901 replica because of the two piece lever. I came home from a scout fair on my 13th birthday and there is see on the dining room table a box that had a picture of the 1887 on it. My dad said he got it for me because I expressed interest in it though it was because I saw it in The Mummy 2, not T2. When he went to Collectors Firearms in Houston, they said they had 3 of them on hand, 3 original production guns. He got me a much cheaper Chinese replica instead. My gun has been fairly reliable for me. I haven’t had any issues with the hammer being too soft or weirdness with ammo, though I’ve only ever shot birdshot out of it since I used it shooting trap, but I have shot it a lot without issue. I dunno if it’s just my gun or maybe my gun being an updated 1901 model, I don’t need to pull the trigger to drop a shell onto the carrier. As soon as I close the action, it drops a shell. I do have to tighten the screws on it every once in a while and the front bead fell off forever ago. It is a weird and quirky design that has to be run just right to run at all, but I kinda love it for that. Thanks for covering this weird and awesome gun!

Clearly, any functionality problems are user error. One has to have the proper Clothes, Boots and Motorcycle..... Just as John Browning intended.

I keep getting amazed by how huge it actually is. In the hands of a T-800 it almost looks like a Mare's Leg.

1911s are quirky too but we still love them. I have one of the newest generation of Cimarron repros and it shoots like a champ. She just likes it rough, is all. Gotta really work that lever.

They key question to ask when anyone asks "Is XYZ reliable" is "How many other companies copied the design and put out their own version?" If the answer is "Oh, everybody did, companies came up producing nothing but ripoffs of it" that's a key that the design is solid and it's pretty reliable. If the answer is "Uh, well, that company didn't even stay with the design for that long" there's probably an obvious reason for that, and it's likely flaws in the design. As such, that's probably why the '87 Winchie, while revolutionary in its day, didn't really stick too long before other better ideas surpassed it. If anything, it should be credited with opening designers eyes to repeating shotgun possibilities, like pumpguns.

Thanks for another great video, Karl!

Fun fact: they only used this shotgun in Terminator 2 because James Cameron really liked how John Wayne flip-cocked his mare’s leg in True Grit

Love the video and love the scarf Karl ! Keep it up !

Have an original and a repro AND YOU ARE SO RIGHT! I love the scene in Mummy Returns when Rick is trying to reload his "87 on the run, and just gives up!

6:52 I had this exact same issue with a charter arms revolver's transfer bar. Transfer bar was soft and starting to mushroom out, getting light primer strikes and actually started getting caught/stuck/dragging on the firing pin as well making the trigger pull abyssal.

If you want a more time proper loctite solution you could use a pine pitch or even just the sap. It'll harden like loctite but you can remove it with heat. My great grandad used to do that with his guns

I want one specifically because it is a finicky unreliable problem child I love my junk project guns they make me feel like a real gunsmith when I fix stuff and it works right for a while

A Chiappa with soft metal parts, why I absolutely never would have guessed! Seriously though, had a M4-22 upper and it cured me of the want to buy anything Chiappa again.

Very interesting. Well done showing your process. Thanks.

Bought 1 when i turned 18, never regretted it a day in my life

It's nice when suppliers are on the ball and get the orders processed then sent in a timely fashion. Those guns are really neat with the 70,140 conversion.

I have ran a few versions of this shotgun. I can confirm the clunckyness is a product of the design itself and not one particular manufacturer. Still fun though. In fact, I would say the clunky nature of the gun makes it more fun to run.

Reproduction 1887s became popular here in Australia after pump action and semi auto shotguns became heavily restricted in 1996. They have been largely replaced by modern Turkish lever action shotguns and straight pull bolt action shotguns.

As I recall, John Browning told Winchester that he'd rather just finish his pump design, but they said "we sell lever actions." He knew this was not a great design, but Winchester's money spends as good as anyone else's. The 1893/97 is the Browning design that's fully baked.

There’s a purple loctite that is weaker than the blue. You can also use pipe thread tape

My favorite shotgun is the _other_ one with an iconic scene in a James Cameron movie-the Ithaca Model 37. "I like to keep this handy..." _CHA-CHAK_ "...for close encounters." (Also, I'm a lefty and the Ithaca ejects out the bottom)

Nice presentation, well timed, edited, and spoken. Thanks Karl. Gus

I have the recent Cimarron Chinese reproduction, I bought it as a range toy and that was my level of expectations and I've been happy with it. I'd compare ownership to that of a classic car. There's nostalgia, there's the iconography, and when you do have everything working right, its fun. But its never going to be your reliable daily driver. It will require more work to keep running, but there's also a pride that comes from that as well.

Still want one. I really appreciate the brief run down of it’s quirks.

1) Coolness 2) it's different 3) gun control (In Australia lever shotguns are very very popular due to pumps being illegal 4) Terminator

Absolutely educating view on 1887 shotguns, thanks from a CAS shooter from a jurisdiction where pump-action shotguns are prohibited.

All of the issues you listed is why the 1887 is at the bottom of my buy list...but its still on the list

Very interesting Karl as always! Keep them coming! Always solid info from In Range!!!

The nice reproductions are really desireable. Dad had originals he didnt shoot much, if at all. When the reproductions quality level increased he bought a few for shooting. He did not like the new look and was masterful at giving them a well used, maintained look. We both knowingly bought originals and repros to repair. All too often the repro parts needed massive amounts of fitting to make them work.

Try all of that with black powder shells!

One tip for loading, brown leather work gloves and some practice you can get decently fast. Also everytime you shoot lube the action well.

Nothing will tell you how disappointed i was to drop almost 2k on my case hardened chiappa mares leg, only to find it VERY quickly that its a POS. And its not even chiappas fault.

Bought mine to hunt with, mostly pheasants. I got extra choke tubes so it can be from full to cylinder bore.

For the locktite I would say maybe the green if I remember correctly it's meant for things that'll be disassembled regularly

I see this as the same boat as a 1930 T bucket. No matter how poorly it performs, it still has a great look to it.

There is a great video put out by the gunsmith that worked closely with the Chinese company on behalf of century arms, and he helped the Chinese maker produce a very good copy in the century arms replica, the PW87A. That is what I have. It works flawlessly, with roll crimped 2 1/2 to max 2 3/4” shells. In the video I referenced, he goes over the minutia of what he had to go through with the Chinese maker to get a superior product. You video is great as well BTW! Thanks for your awesome content!

Have an original, fell in love with them from rhe western movie Desperado (1987). Mine has been very reliable. Thinking of getting a Cimarron to convert to 70-110. If you think an 1887 is quirky you should shoot a Spencer Pump Shotgun! Have 2 of them. The Spencer predates the Winchester 1893/1897. They started in 1882.

My Chinese 1897 was rough. Sold it and regret it. I had an 1887 and 1901 originals in 10 gauge. Sold them and didn't regret it.

Try pink lock tight for small soft screws we use it on brass screws on the restraints of roller coasters

Thank you for this, Karl, i knew about some of the issues, now i know more, still, won't stop me from getting one 😁

In Flight Missile Repair. Best expression all week!

Speaking of pop culture, my introduction to the 1887 Winchester was in the Alan Moore run of Swamp Thing, of all places. It even mentions how it wasn't even the best gun at the time, it's got issues, but there's still a few reproductions a year for people who are into that.

I have the Chinese version from back when they were about $300, if I recall. Haven't shot it enough to run into problems but you have to run the action with vigour. Very cool looking gun.

I’ll get the 28” version eventually. Definitely going Chiappa.

It was never designed to be a speed cycled firearm, not in the 1880s and not now. It was designed as a hunting firearm not a "gunfighter" gun. My grandpa had an original, longer barrel, functioned flawlessly.

Another great video Karl . I really like your recent content 👍🏼

I couldn't tell ya. I LOVE lever actions, and shotguns have always been cool so having one weapon that is both just tickles that 'joy' part of my brain. same reason I love revolvers, shame a lever-action revolving shotgun doesn't exist. then i'd be in heaven.

The carrier screws would seem to be a good application for Vibra-Tite's VC-3 threadlocker. Rather than the typical anaerobic threadlocker that's assembled wet, dries between the threads and retains until being disassembled (once); VC-3 is painted on the screw threads and allowed to dry. The dried VC-3 remains soft, so when assembled it serves the same thread retaining function as the nylon insert in a Nyloc nut. The fastener can be adjusted removed and reused without requiring another application to still work. It doesn't last forever under repeated disassembly, but when it wears out the dried compound can be cleaned off and reapplied. I would recommend not putting any on the first couple threads of a fine thread screw, as it can be easier to get the screw started in the threads correctly without the VC-3 being there, especially the first assembly after application. For me the 1887 shotguns fall in the interesting, but not something I want to own category. I am fascinated by the progression of firearms design over the years, and always wonder how does the industry decide that a basic design is good enough, lets just run with it. In this case of repeating shotguns, start with an intentional handicap by a marketing decision, move on to a different mechanism entirely like pumps, and start tweaking those designs until they run well and are cheap to make while concurrently exploring semi-auto designs and going through the same design processes. Great video!

Lithgow Small Arms in Australia tried to make 1887 shotguns for the Cowboy crowd over here decades ago. But they could never get the leaf springs to work satisfactorily (too soft or they broke IIRC) - all the 'old timers' who made leaf springs for the SMLE had long retired and the new crew only understood coil springs.

Another cool benefit is the action is very compact. I have one of the new imported Cimarron and yours looks way prettier than the matte black finish on mine.

Sounds similar to running spencer. Thanks for the info carl.

I have one of the china ones. Screws extremely soft so they sent me replacement screws but like 1 at a time with the last one coming 4yrs after the first. Mine is mostly reliable except the last round almost always sticks to the bolt on extraction no matter how aggressive you run it. Polishing chamber helped with reliability alot.

Thanks for the honest review, but I still want one!

I noticed the hammer was very slow to fall during the failures. I first thought "spring" before thinking some deformation could slow the fall.

I have a Cimarron Model 1887 20” and I have about 100 shells through it so far and it runs great. I just might get it cerakoted to be more weather resistant because I am not too fond of Chinese steel coatings from factory but running bird, buck, and slugs, it runs great and I can keep my cheek on the gun when cycling and shot a 24/25 at my local skeet range

I have a Cimmarron repro, and the quirk it has is that the magazine spring is too strong to +2 it. It needs to compress a bit more to get that shell on the lifter, about the length of the brass on lowbrass target shotshells.

10:00 The "old" way of ensuring screws didn't back out was to use cornstarch on the threads like dry loctite. That's the method I know, not sure if a water or even oil paste would work if it needed to be easier, but dry cornstarch may be enough to stop those backing out.

I have a Chinese copy from Centruy International and it seems to work pretty well. It DOES need to be handled with authority to function correctly. One thing different on mine is that the next round enters the lifter once the action is closed. No trigger pull needed.

Are you telling me that ghost loading has been around since the inception of repeating shotguns? Heck yeah.

Very informative video! How about a head to head comparison of this, the 1893/97 and the Auto-5? Comparison of all the iconic JMB shotguns!

I have one of the Chinese replicas and this sums up a lot of the issues I've had with it over the years. Really starting to debate trading it in for something

'In-flight missile repair' is gonna stick with me for a while, I think

Beyond nostalgia, this sounds like a pain. I get the cowboy action part though.

Excellent in all ways. Thank you. Me being a still somewhat functional OF- Old "fellow" -read flatulence, of 80, who recently felt a desire to own a lever shotgun replacing my grandfather's shotgun, I will forgo that. Thanks! However, I add something useful perhaps: having read more than several evaluations about Chiappa guns it seems they have a basic problem with quality. New guns breaking, soft parts, etc, etc, I believe I will avoid the brand entirely. Further, I will add that 1897's bolts can have very sharp edges giving a nasty cut to the thumb web-something that is probably well known. Wishing all good shooting and happy trails.

So I have owned one of these for about 6 months now. Not a Chiappa, I got the new in production Cimmaron because I was going to review it for my first Fallout themed Gun review. I managed to pump out about 100 rounds of high brass 00 Buckshot in an afternoon between my friends and I and an additional 100 rounds of field and target bulk birdshot. When I brought it home after the second trip to the range, my stock was rattling. It turned out that my receiver threading to hold the stock screw in place had stripped out under firing. It is currently at the Cimmaron gun smith being inspected

You could also buy the 1901 version, in smokeless 10 gauge(or 12 gauge). All the old quality of the 1887 without the black powder, shoots modern light loads. Sense no one seems to know or care about the 1901 Winchester, you can get it for cheap. I got mine for $300 at a local gun show. I wonder if these guns work better with paper or brass cartridges, sense that is what they are designed for?

It's funny because growing up I always thought that since John Browning hated it, that everybody else did too. Then whenever I kept seeing other people wanting one, I wondered if maybe I was the one told misinformation.

Me packing for a Brutality match: I want it so there is InRange content

I know you bring this up in your video: John Browning himself told Winchester (when they asked him to design a level action shotgun), that a slide action would be a much better choice and they should commission that from him. Winchester insisted on the lever action and Browning basically said "okay I will take your money but don't say I didn't tell you so." [my paraphrase of course]. Funny how Winchester did much better with a slide action within a few years with the 1893. John told them so.

Leather wrap on the lever: check. When i hand mine to interested shooters i always tell them don't baby it- she likes it rough. Mine actually runs pretty well but you have to treat it like a rented mule.

Thank you.

Stop ruining my preconceived fantasies with “facts” and “truth”.

It can effectively stun a T-1000, allowing you time to escape.

Thank you

ive had one for years, had an action job done by cowboy action shooter place, id have to bust it out to see, and man it is fun thats for sure.

you forgot that you could leave a round on the carrier after you fill the tube so when you close the action youll have a round on the chamber. I really like this shotgun it can carry 7 rounds and its not so hard to reload.

i like them for the same reason i like cold war era guns, it was an experimental time and therefore brought some mental technology like in this case a levergun that spills it's guts when you run the action.

Needing to finger rounds in through the ejection port reminds me of loading my KSG. At least with the KSG you've got 12+ rounds instead of 7 lol

Awesome firearm I've always wanted, just not for $930.

Best video I’ve seen on the 1887