3 Pentecostals Debate Us on "The Great Apostasy" 

Kudos to both sides for keeping it real and respectful. A far cry from some of my mission experiences.

They never made a coherent argument (in my opinion) about whey they shouldn't be Roman Catholic, if there is no Great Apostacy.

Now this LDS Apologetics at its best. Not the arguments, but the conversations, the truth explained clearly. Thank you guys!

Brad won this whole thing in his first statement. Beautiful. Great content and moderating from Cardon. I could watch stuff like this all day.

As a former evangelical/Pentecostal I was reminded in this episode why I left (years before I became LDS)- a total inability to engage in a religious conversation without constantly proof texting and avoidance of addressing the actual rhetorical question being posed. The guests never clearly stated what they believed about any doctrine of a great apostasy. They constantly referred to scripture warning of apostasy written before our doctrine claims it happened. The reality is Pentecostals believe it hasn’t happened yet and will occur at some point in the end times, and naturally it won’t be them. The guests also refer to the lineage of authority held by the Catholic Church without addressing what authority entails and what happens when it is abused. The reality is they don’t believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, they believe in the authority and priesthood of all believers. All that evangelicals are taught to do is proof text, often without context, to prove their ideas rather than form them. Cordon did an outstanding job of moderating the conversation, giving everyone time, staying on topic, clarifying and restating points.

Great episode. This serves as even more affirmation that the LDS church is the truest and only living church of Christ.

God gave more scripture than is recorded in the bible. He continues to do so for our benefit and learning. That's one of the biggest differences in belief between us and other faiths. The absolutism of the bible is a stumbling block, imo.

These Pentecostal guys were pretty cool! Hope we can see them again. I loved the civil conversations and general funness involved even though there were some serious topics discussed!

I’m grateful that I was born again at my baptism, at the age of 8 years old, by immersion, into the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. And that I was also given, through the proper priesthood authority, the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. I’m eternal thankful.

This sort of content is so important! Thank you for organizing this, I hope there's more denominations invited in the future!

So they appeal to the Catholic pedigree of authority for their legitimacy, which makes me wonder how they have continued that and by what right do their pastors operate outside of it?

If Saint Nicholas was one of the last to hold the priesthood, then isn’t it interesting how Christmas is a celebration of both the birth of Christ and the legacy of Saint Nicholas. The beginning and the end of the dispensation of Christ.

TIL that in order to deny the Mormons a win, Pentacostals will embrace the crusades and papal orgies.

Thank you Midnight Mormons for this sacred work of gathering you are doing in striving to get on the same page with our fellow Christians. Keep up the good work. Hopefully the continuation of this conversation will be soon.

And this wasn't a debate. It was just a good old conversation about religion. How it should be.

Great conversation. Looking forward to the next one!

Wow! respectfully the pentecost Bros got schooled. Great job Brad Kwaku & Cardon. The restored Gospel will go forth for those who are willing to listen.

Interesting conversation. It’s very interesting to see others perspectives. I have mad respect for any Christian denomination.

Brad wins the debate and Cardon loses 🤣 jk .... but that was a great line that went something like "similar to Jesus' death and resurrection, so did Christ Church" ❤️

At one time, I could have been civil with Evangelicals and Pentacostals. I started my mission thinking that people of the protestant world were our brothers and sisters in Christ, but after a year of work among them, attending their meetings and observing the conduct of their leaders, I completely changed my mind. These days, after serving a mission among them in the American South, to hear that they are willing to cuddle up next to each other and even the Catholic Church in this "ecumenical" buddy-buddy relationship, I realize that such civility is no longer merited. They were as vociferously antagonistic towards the Catholics in 2005 as they were to us when I served my mission. When they were having us murdered and lynched in the 19th century, they were burning down Catholic Churches. How is it that the Catholics are now saved and the members of the Restored Church are not? It is because Satan has full control of their organizations, their teachers and their Churches. This supposition of an ecumenical united front is a sham, made purely because they do not want to accept that the authority of God resides with those dirty mormons, their words, not mine. They would rather make oblations to the Pope and Rome than to God's restoration. Utterly disgusting and pretentious. They teach our doctrines in their Church, and then declare us heretics. If I had not heard it from their mouths that "Man shall become as God!" I would not have believed it. The "Church of Christ" in America, who denounces the use of instrumental music in worship services, opposed with forcefulness the Baptists and all of the other denominations as being under the influence of Satan. The same with the Seventh-Day Adventists and the lack of prophecy and God's appropriate Sabbath on Saturday. Each would, in their turn, be calling each other to repentance, there was no unity. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, we were merely the most hated, of a whole swath of hated denominations. Furthermore, not one preacher, deacon, minister or otherwise, made an appeal to Christ's authority through the Church fathers, all claimed it through ecstatic means. To now say otherwise is such tripe. This does not even begin to touch on the rancid wickedness that pervaded so many of the Churches there, the worst being those who indulged in Charismatic worship. From inviting the few wealthy members to flaunt their wealth in front of a poverty stricken congregation, to a minister that handed out pornography during the service, to yet another that endorsed the practice of "free love" and only gave sermons on sex. This is the second time I've heard this drivel come from the protestants, and it is an utter re-writing of their own history and truth claims. I see no other reason for this ecumenical movement, which specifically excludes us, as being merely another move to unite at some time against the Restored Church and it's members. To justify again our marginalization, persecution and eventual slaughter. I trust little that flows from their teachers mouths, particularly when there are so many that know of the truth of the Church, yet stay away from it for the love of their careers as popular teachers.

I loved this. Can we have an hour of just Brad though? He kept asking the exact questions I had. Cardon's and Kwaku's questions and remarke were good as well, but Brad's questions follow my same line of thinking almost perfectly.

Brad, Kwaku and Cardon gave some excellent rebuttals on apostasy, authority, and gates of hell prevailing! I learned some good stuff! So nice to see such a respectful tone!

I love how respectful you guys are! You don’t falter or sway, but you treat others with love. That’s some Christ-like behavior right there! Keep up the good work guys! You’re such an encouragement!

I want to see them debate the trinity on Jacob Hansen’s show that would be fun. And definitely a part 2 on this as well. Thanks for sharing! Let Kwaku talk more also 😂.

Your guests are great guys with strong faith. Have them on again.

Apostolic authority ended with the death of the 12 alive when Jesus died. That's why the catholic Church has always been led by Bishop's, which are local authorities. At some point, they decided to elect an arch bishop to provide a centralized leader. That has always been a man made appointment.

The chillest Bible Bash of all time. God Bless

I don't think the Evangelicals ever understood Cordon's question about the great Apostasy, because they didn't answer it.

This was a great episode! Recently I've been learning about the Orthodox Church because it's the only "traditional" Christian church that interests me as a Latter-day Saint, and this question came to mind: If there wasn't a Great Apostasy, then their claim of being the original church would have some weight to it. If it did happen, and the Priesthood was taken, then our claim of a Restoration has weight. It would be interesting to have this conversation with 3 Orthodox brothers!

Have wondered about how "primitivists" such as pentecostals and evangelicals can go on about Sola Scriptura yet teach doctrines based on 3rd to 5th century creeds.

Thank you to our beautiful Pentecostal brothers for this conversation.

I sense alot of confusion with our pentecostal brothers.😕 still one love ❤

I would call tens of thousands of Christian denominations the epitomy of subjectivity.

Loved the conversation. Mad respect to both sides for being civil and funny as well as very spiritual. Great job again Midnight Mormons.

Why can't all talk this way to one another... you guys are awesome. Cardon, Brad & K, you guys, I know were amazing missionaries. 🙏❤️

Well done. I still can’t understand how the Holy Spirit is the authority when everyone claims the Holy Spirit yet disagree. There has to be a restoration, that has always been the pattern.

Everyone is praying for Kwaku during his challenging time. Not me, but Mormons probably are. I can't wait to hear his update about dog reptile people on Kolob.

It's cool you guys did this!

Everytime I here someone bring up Galatians, and quotes the verse, teach another gospel let them be accursed, I want to shake them and ask them , do you even understand who Paul was talking to and why he made such a statement. Paul was specifically talking to the Gentiles who were hated by the Jews who were followers of Christ. These Jews were racist and were telling the Gentiles that they were not of Abraham and therefore not of the covenant because they were not circumcised. This is the theme throughout all the epistles, including Romans when it refers to grace.

My question: Is baptism essential to Salvation, and should it be done as was done with Christ, full immersion?

What a great discussion! I love learning from Evangelicals, Protestants and Pentecosts. Respect for these 3 guys, they know what they are talking about...from a strong Lds.

I loved the “why aren’t you guys Catholics?”

This is cool that you are doing this. I always like it when Latter Day Saints and non-Latter Day Saints can speak to one another with respect and answer or ask sincere questions. Religious conversations can be a challenge as we struggle to explain and/or listen with real intent to understand one another.

99% of Christians today have not read those man-made creeds. And, there are literally dozens of biblical scriptures that do not jive with just the Nicene Creed alone.

Thank you for demonstrating how to debate without being jackasses:). Loved it.

You should have a catholic, orthodox and more historically connected protestant

Oh heck yeah. This is fire 🔥

This was super interesting. But based on what the Penta Bros said, they believe in a very confusing God that doesn't really lead.

Cheers to all! If only we could talk about things or topics in this way, in all things. Totally worth the watch! ❤

We’ll done. Conversations without contention

You’ve got to get them on for a part 2. There’s a lot left on the table here!

I had to pause the video and laugh when they chose to open with first Jude, and the different readings, as an example of the gospel being delivered all at once. As if the Bible was written all at once. I’m sure the Jewish sects used that verse against Jesus and his apostles.

Pentecostals defending the Catholic Church's claim to priesthood lineal authority?! Haha great episode guys. These kinds of respectful conversations really help intellectually nourish my testimony that the Father and the Christ have called prophets and apostles again on the Earth in the latter days in preparation for His Second Coming and Thousand year reign.

Always great watching gracious convos like this

Thank you to the Pentecostal brothers who came on, and to the spirit of love I felt was shared. It dawned on me during this episode that even if you don’t believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet called to “restore” Christ’s gospel. There is no reason for all the Christian denominations to almost universally deny Mormons the title of “Christian”. All the founders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints came from a Christian faith, so at the very least, they should be afforded the same privileges as any other Christian reformers as merely wanting different “preferential” practices, because the core of believing in being “born again” is not disputed.

Nice guys, but you all knew what they believed more than what they believed. 😂

Brad, as a fellow Brad who loves the scriptures I gotta say I love your insights man, you are learned and humble and it shows, keep preachin brotha!

Excellent debate, guys!

Favorite episode of cardon. Great conversation ❤

They always loose me when they say Christ is GOD. ie God the father and Jesus Christ are the same person.

These guys were cool. They set a good example that I wish other Christian groups would follow.

Awesome chat. Just awesome.

Cardon, you shine in these types of settings, you should do more of these.

Y'all should invite Robert Boylan on for this discussion

Keep up the good work!!

The Matthew 16 reference for members of the Church of Jesus Christ refers to Revelation as the rock...not Peter.

Positive and great exchange. Cardon, Brad and Kwaku scored the most points on logic and reason. Jesus' testimony and Church was founded on revelation. That's what the Savior said to Peter, not that the Church would be established upon one man, but upon revelation: "But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The Church would not be founded on flesh and blood. The gates of hell prevailed against Peter and hung him upside down in Rome of all places. All the apostles were murdered except John (couldn't be killed as blessed by Christ) and things spun out of control after they were gone. The residual absorbed into unholy political Org that killed and persecuted true believers throughout the centuries. It suppressed and altered the doctrine and ordinances of Christ. The pentecostals brothers get points on belief in Jesus but are simply disobedient Catholics.

wonderful respectful conversation.. kudos to both sides. lets do more of these please.

Almost a year ago. Theres a couple of things that I've learned recently that I didn't know about the Great Apostacy have actually come from other faiths and it's apparent that other faiths recognized this was a thing. I don't know about how it's taught to today, but in my time it was taught the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually have a lot of respect for what is called The Reformers. John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and John Calvin are actually respected for their turning from the Catholic Church in order to spark personal study. It wasn't until the Restoration, however, that someone would actually approach God and ask him so the Reformers jump started the change. I've been able to study St. Ignatius of Antioch lately and the letters he wrote to the Saints while he was imprisoned awaiting a martyrs death, he was to be fed alive to beasts and the Saints were going to break him out but he told them No. It's believe that St. Ignatius was one of the children that Jesus had gathered around when he blessed the children, though it's not for certain, but Ignatius was a big fan of the Apostle John who called him and set him apart as the Bishop of Antioch. It's awesome to learn through Ignatius that God had an order, when Jesus organized the Church and Paul wrote of it to the Saints in Ephesus, when the Apostles were being killed, we know this, that the Saints went to Ignatius and asked him for guidance and Ignatius understood the Priesthood, his office, and his authority and replied to the Saints, in essence, "I am but a Bishop". Ignatius knew he authority only stretched so far and wasn't going to overstep his bounds while other Bishops were taking on roles they had no authority to be to so when the council in Nicea happened, you had all this input from Bishops that didn't have the authority. Ignatius turned it down, he saw the Church crumbling and told the saints that he would do his best with what he had, but he wasn't an Apostle, he couldn't receive revelation on behalf of the whole Church, he understood that, but he did what he could with what he had but, the people had just rejected Jesus and Jesus told his Apostles that they were next and prophecied that they would die along with him and history documents the rejection and mode of death for the Apostles. So, we actually learn, through Catholic History, that Ignatius understood his limits as a Bishop, he was over a congregation or a district and that was it. We've also learned the Apostolic authority for Constantine or those around him, or should we say lack of. Constantine wasn't a converted Christian. He claimed he saw Jesus and that helped him win his war victory, but what he left behind seems to indicate that Constantine used Christianity and it's rising popularity to win over loyal subjects. Pegans loved and wanted to part of the message of Christians as love and peace, that was the selling factor for them coming from a faith the exact opposite and Constantine saw this huge rise that could threaten his empire so, to gain favor, it became political, but Constantine never actually converted to Christianity, he was never even baptized. Constantine remained loyal to Apollo and built structures in his name to elevate Constantines status, his Pagan beliefs never left but Christianity was a mask worn over Pagan traditions to gain favor, Constantine died a Pagan. When he gathered his council of Nicea well after Jesus' crucifixion and the death of the Apostles, Bishops, BISHOPS, were called to the counsel. There were no Apostles present, no Seventy, but Bishops who preside over the Priests, but no Apostles, no prophets, no seers, and no revelators, and who even knows where these Bishops received their authority from. The Bible was NOT compiled or even written by the Aspostles that followed Jesus around. Unlike the Egyptians that wanted everything documented, the Jews weren't exactly the same way. I think Christians envision Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and James sitting at Jesus' feet scribing while he's talking, but that wasn't it. Paul's Epistles to the various Churches (by which I mean congregations and not sects or denominations) are the only legit written documentation from an Apostle, so long as they're translated correctly, everything else, including the Old Testament was written by scholars. YES, the Bible was written by mortal foulable men. You know the telephone game where kids line up and pass a message along? That's how the Bible was written. It was written from memory of the Saints that listened to the Apostles teach. People were gathered to tell the stories to the best of their knowledge and scholars wrote it down and then compiled it. We have no clue what order they should be in, they're not chronological in order, the Book of Revelation just to happened to fall at the end, so, when we say the Bible is God's word, that's a stretch. God's word is perfect and pure, nobody will and can dispute that, but mortal man is flawed, and everyday Joe off the streets took from what little memory some might have had and wrote second or third-hand accounts and wrote those down. NO, the Apostles didn't write the Bible, they taught sermons that were documented into the Bible and are a small portion of what they taught. Other documentation is yet to be found, I'm sure as archaeological digs are always finding something new, and, these documents were translated by mortal men that may or may not have know the language well, who knows save them? So, the Church once Constantine wanted to dip his hands into that cookie jar was already on really rocky ground. It's not God's fault, it's mortal man's foulability. Finally, the other point to be made, as far as I know anyway, the Great Apostacy was coined and taught first by Martin Luther, the German monk that nailed his thesis to the door and led and pushed for Bibles to be printed and distributed to the masses for themselves to read. So, my understanding is the Great Apostacy is actually a Lutheran term, or started out as such and Martin Luther identified and taught that. Joseph Smith learned that way later, but as far as I know, Martin Luther, and Protestant Christian , taught that first

I remember just being surprised when I studied history that people can deny the great apostasy.

The middle guy was saying that everything that God says is perfect, but we know that there are lots of interpretations of scriptures. And the people that translated them weren't perfect so although god's words are perfect, it doesn't mean that what a fallible man writes is perfect. And just because God's words are perfect doesn't mean we interpret his words correctly.

Cardon: Then why did Martin Luther nail 91 thesis’s … Brad: It was 95. Cardon: oops my bad, then why did he nail 94 thesis’s … EJJ: *silently praying* Lord help this man

I’m surprised that they actually committed to some of the doctrinal tenets such as church authority. Most Protestants just stand their ground on the Bible giving them authority and the Catholics are going to hell. One of the guys was saying that Jesus’s words are like this seed that will always stay consistent even if people corrupt or twist it. But he fail to address what happens if a people only have the corrupted or twisted version of it? Is there ever a point that it is so corrupted and twisted that it is no longer the true thing? It just comes down to that they have faith that the Bible is has not been corrupted (even though the stewards of it were corrupted). Where to believe the Book of Mormon is true means that you believe it was given to the earth by God to a prophet of God and has been managed exclusively by prophets of God ever since. And that does require faith.

On a different topic, do you guys plan on talking about Bro. Corbitt's talk on activism towards the church (ATC as he labels it)? Seems to fit pretty well into some of the discussions you guys have had as of late on other topics. Love the show!

I'm surprised you guys didn't bring up the priesthood as part of the great apostasy and why there was a need for restoration. I liked how the conversation was respectful!

Nice job everyone. Really enjoyed this video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and testimonies. Christ is the best. He told us himself the truth wasn’t on the earth and their creeds were an abomination, etc. I know you can’t really use that in a debate but just thinking out loud.

great discussions here!

You guys are to be commended for having all types of guests. I'm not Mormon or Pentecostal but I think another conversation with them would be interesting.

"The gospel was given once and for all." So ... back with Abraham and that was it? (Gal. 3:8,16)

I always have a hard time being patient when people continually go back to Greek or Latin words to try to find absolute meaning in that one root word or translation.

I did love your guests. You can tell they are great and good men.

I’ve been attending a Pentecostal church for eight months. I was hoping these guys could provide some clarity to the answers I get at church. No such luck. There are so many leaps of faith in this. In my church they claim authority comes from the studying of the scriptures. So hard to swallow. Luckily they have a great fellowship. Great people.

Great job on this and awesome these guys came! Not sure I heard their answer about what the great apostasy of the Bible refers to. And not sure I heard your answer on why the delay on when the restoration occurred.

38:10 “Boom shaka laka, Christ lives.” No truer words have been uttered😂

One thing I wish had come up, "we believe that the people who got together in the councils were the corrupt ones." I always tell people who are open, the lord said that their lips draw near but their hearts are far from him. The lord does not love eternal divorce and he does not love sending the dead to hell that never heard of him. Anyone who teaches this has a heart far from His.

I'll be honest. I don't think the Pentecostals ever had very solid points. Follow their last point: In order to remain objective> (not make it in our opinion) >To properly execute the word of God >We have the Holy Spirit >The Holy Spirit is the author of the word of God >After that "he warns us" and says listen this is what is going to happen >In order for us to avoid subjectivity we are given the holy spirit >The Holy Spirit is the mind of God >There are people that will twist the word of God. (the LDS Church) The whole point he's making is a subjective point.

Please let kwaku and brad speak. Please?!! I know you love love talking and recapping but your co-hosts are really really great speakers and they are smart and funny. I'm glad they ended up fighting for s bit of time.

10:45 can I jump in on that? No. That was perfect.

Cardon and Gang, how about a video on the Australian “fraud” and Jana reise’s video, along with FairLDS response. Hot takes like that will increase your viewership, since that’s what everyone is talking about.

I appreciate the civil dialogue between two somewhat opposing philosophies of Christianity. This is always the way it should be so thank you for showing it can be done. I wish the Midnight Mormon guys would have clearly articulated why the ongoing movement of Christianity from the time of Christ forward isn't enough to prove an apostasy didn't occur. Although an apostasy was discussed and that many scriptures state it happened, nothing validating why it was the restoration was necessary was really addressed. The scripture in Matthew 16:18 refers to the rock of revelation, the rock of priesthood and its accompanying ordinances and the rock of Christ. Mainstream Christians take this scripture to mean the Christian Church as an organization. This is why they are confused. The Christian Church has not left the earth since it originated with Christ so they don't see what was lost. The restoration included a return of the priesthood and saving ordinances and prophetic revelation. These items were lost during that 1700 year period of time. Nice job overall guys but don't miss the opportunity to share what we believe in its fulness!

Was this discussion ever continued, as was implied at the end of the episode?

I think The Great Apostacy was worst when it started. It was worse when there were people rejecting living apostles.

definitely invite back, a lot of things to think about AND a second session will allow for people to think about where they agree so that is not talked about as much.

If the Bible is supposed to contain all of God's word, where is the record of Christ's teachings to his Apostles during the 40 days after his resurrection? On the other hand, if God's word in the bible is complete without that teaching, why did Christ need to spend that time with them?

Kwaku itching to say something the whole time 😂 homie loves these type of Conversations

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I would suggest part of what is meant as the "great apostacy" has to do with what happened after Christ and the apostles were killed where the actual priesthood of Christ and authority were gone. At some point there was no actual authority/priesthood left on the earth. People who liked the preachings of Christ and considered themselves advocates or Christian may have had good intentions. But, any priesthood or authority of Christ/God was taken from the earth and a man-made assumed-authority/priesthood came into being with the formation of the Catholic church and on through protestant reformation. We don't mean any disrespect to Catholics or protestants as many of our members (including myself) came out of the construct of Catholicism and protestant reformations with our forbears having been members of those faiths. So, we are saying that any man-made priesthood authority came about through seminaries and studies and subsequent certificates that had nothing to do with God/Christ/ or angels presenting authority to man. Another part of what may be meant by "great" in the great apostacy is the length of time that the apostacy remained. We are talking about an apostacy that lasted sometime after AD 100 up until 1830 which sums to a period of over 1700 years without God having an established church on the earth and thus without actual revelation from God to man via prophets. We believe that at times God inspired men during the apostacy but without authority and revelation man sought the will of man in things pertaining to God. Compare mans will and without authority to God choosing servants who would diligently under that authority God seek the revelations of God and lead the church under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Part of priesthood authority means the bestowal of the gift of the HolyGhost whose presence can be felt daily and as often as one repents and remains in tune and harmony with God. Compare that to occasional moments of feeling Gods presence and witness of the warm loving hands of his Spirit upon us. So, this is my weak interpretation. But hopefully adds some insight into our understanding of the great apostacy. I think if I spent alot of time thinking through this better my thoughts would be more precise and less error prone rather than remarking off the cuff.

I, agree with *94 *. for the most part. every side seems respectful. Regardless what side we are on NOTHING is gained by dissing& screaming at ea. other like alot of Churches do( are you paying attention BAPTISTS????). Disrespect, is what the world does. Not those that profess to be CHRISTIAN. What a cool video; bring on some more####

How, much fun is this. How, can one have too much of the LORD OF Glory........

The Great Apostasy, The Great Tribulation and The Great White Throne … it all makes sense!

the Rock that Christ meant was not Peter, it was the Rock of REVELATION. The church is lead by revelation and that revelation will not fail, and it never fell, because the Holy Ghost inspired many reformist to point out the corruption in the Christian world, and I would argue that just like the great apostasy did not happen all at once, so was the restoration not brought about all at once.