It has to do with the empty volume in the cartridge and the primer size. Lower charges (higher empty volume) equals lower ignition pressures which provoke hangfires. Large primers will increase the pressure compared to small primers hence improving such conditions. Keep that in mind because if you are going to test the issue you need a proper strategy to control these variables. Not doing so will give you inconclusive results.
thank you for the testing. keep testing to find the best. i will definitely not use small over large while hunting. not worth a hang fire. good knowledge to know.
All i got was LaRue MBT for the WIN! No just kidding. I really liked this. Haven't seen a reloading vid on any other channel actually aiming for a failure. Most folks go "well that didnt work, we wont do that again." I like seeing someone search for and point out the flaw so that they/we never encounter the same failure point. Thats really the only way to make real progress.
I've done a decent amount of reloading but I wouldn't call myself an avid reloader and this is the first time I have heard you could get brass in both large and small primer varieties. You learn something new every day... Thanks!
LOAD UP SOME BERGER CLASSICS OR VLD WITH THIS SETUP PLEASE! PS: I’ve been really missing out on this channel. Best reloading channel ive found, oh well, back to binge watching!
Not surprised Sellier & Bellot primes we not quality components. Bought 500 rounds of their .22 long rifle bullets and over 200 would not cycle my Ruger Mark IV. The only ammo that would not cycle.
Drop the IMR 4895 .5 gr. Should be a match to the two other groups. Me I would use the CCI 200s and new brass and I bet the group are going to be really good and FPS will be very good. My self I wouldn't even mess with the small primer holes in the .308 but that is just me. Keep the videos coming. I love the stuff. I've been reloading with my dad at the age of 11. Now at almost 62 I still love to reload. Rifle, Shotgun and pistol. Great work.
That's crazy. I've been using Lapua cases for 6.5CM with RL16, RL17, and H4350 with the CCI small mag rifle primer. The H335 has rocked in the 5.56 also. Glad I've never ran into hangfire issues!
between 7.62Nato and 5.56Nato i've loaded and shot over 20k rounds. my total round count for handloading is 40k rounds. I have never had a hangfire either.only 1 round in 5.56 didn't go bang (CCI Small rifle) in a match one time. even the 5k Tula primers all worked great.
Just when your brain was on verge of exploding but you were holding on.... it now just exploded!!!
5 лет назад
I do not remember the channel, but it deals with long range accuracy. That channel mentioned that he had found better accuracy with small primer brass. He mentioned Starline now sells both large and small primer and he was going to stay with the small primer. So, you are the second person I have heard that Sally's primers are more accurate.
Before I pass the 2min mark. 358 Win users love small primer Lapua brass. Ditto for many 7.62x39/Grendel wildcatters, especially if going "larger diameter". The argument is almost always "you get about 100fps for free". About to watch the rest of the video, curious if the conclusions will bare this out. Post video : interesting, now I will have to do some 358 testing with large and small Lapua brass
Well they stopped importing their primers to us so its not like thats a bad thing that once they're gone they are gone lol I wasn't a fan of them anyway because the primer cup was harder on them than the cci primers and this just put the nail in the coffin for me with those lol
I have no experience with the Small Rifle S&B primers. The Large Rifle S&B primers have a solid reputation for very low es and sd. Not that it matters anymore because they aren’t coming in to the USA. Wolf and Tula primers had a very great reputation surprisingly. Many F Class and even bench rest guys were using them.
You suck Johnny, You do do your best to do a crap group with 10 shots and you kick my ass with my best handload 5 shot group haha Keep up the awesome work mate Cheers from down under
It's the toilet bowl vortex debate all over again, in your hemisphere the rifling needs to turn to the left, up here in the states we get away with right hand twist
Big advantage of the small rifle primer brass is it has more brass in the case head making it stronger. Palma shooters tend to load their rounds pretty hot as it's needed to get the 155 grain bullets to the target accurately from the 1,000 yard line.
I'd be curious for the same test but with a know "pet" load and not just minimal charges. It's funny you show that powder/yellow'ness. I bought some S&B large rifle YEARS ago cause it was $16/1k and had the same yellowing in some misfires that I took apart. Didnt know what it was so I tossed the powder. Right now for my precision stuff I prefer Fed Match and my plinking either reg fed or cci.
I think something needs to be said about the development of the Lapua 308 case with small primer pocket and small flash whole. That brass is labeled as "Palma" , the Palma event is fired at countries that speak English originally using the Nations Military cartridge in this case it's 7.62 NATO. the requirements are the competition is at 800-900-1000 meters/yards. Through a bolt action rifle which is supplied by the host country. The hosting country's also supplies the ammunition that each competitor needs, for the weeks long event. Every host country since the 1990's has been using the Lapua case with standard primer pockets. But switched to the small primer pocket with small flash hole, some time more recently. When Australia hosted the event they loaded the ammo with Varget powder, and when the USA hosted , the Sierra 155 grain Plama Match King bullets became standard. The small flash hole is to reduce the back pressure which blows out primer pockets in small cartridges as used in Bench Rest shooting. Way back when the Berdan primed cartridge case that had 2 small flash holes rather the one large one was for the same reason, reduce back pressure that can cause a flame to enter the action and into the face of the shooter.
I read an article by a competitive prone shooter who's 300 yard load was a moly coated 168 SMK, 47.0 grains of 4895( I think H, but it may have been IMR) in Lake City or Lapua brass, and PMC/Russian large rifle primers. In 30-06! Think you have some powder shaking in 308? Of course this was a bolt gun, and he didn't discuss hang fires, he did say that before loading it into the rifle, he would tip it bullet up to make sure of ( or make him feel more confident in) a complete powder burn. Now I realize in an Ar platform, to test this, you would need to point the whole rifle at the sky before every shot, which is umm... silly or a more englishy word. Just thought I'd give you another variable, just in case. Your videos are great. CWF
Hi Johnny. The PRS crowd has produced some interesting data for large vs. small primers using H4350 in large doses. Generally, accuracy was too close to call one better than the other, but the small primer did have an overall lower MV. I even have read an article in Precision Shooter with similar findings. Curious though, why not use IMR 4064 and better quality primers than going with a known poor combination of a spherical powder and crappy primers? Keep up the good work. 🛩 Martin.
Great video.. I like the 308 series of videos in the Ar platform. A side by side with a bolt action shooting the same loads and large primer vs Small to see if either would benefit from large primer vs small.
Really enjoyed the video Johnny ive been reloading for awhile and one thing ive figured out is there are 2 types of reloaders one type finds one thing and sticks with it the other is like me ive got to try every thing
I've got an obsession with stockpiling good ammo so I'll buy 1000 bullets if a good self defense type soft point. Right now I'm doing 2k trophy bonded bear claws. And I'll find a really good load and then just pump out all the bullets with that good load. I've got gold dots stockpiled, 75gr hpbt's, ss109's, tbbc's, tracers.... I just have a thing about having lots of ammo that's all consistent with itself instead of 50 different bullets with different loads that all need their own scope settings.
The small primer 308 cases are usually bench rest cases. The old Remington version used to have thin walls / heads, for more capacity. The idea was to allow a similar amount of powder at a LOWER pressure and they were not meant to be loaded to maximum 308 pressure loads. The Remington 7 1/2 primer is super hot and is called the bench rest primer by Remington and is meant for full size bench rest cases.
Savage F/TR Palma rifle., 1/13 twist, 30 inch barrel. Lapua palma brass. CCI Bench Rest primers (br4), 43.1 gr Varget, 155 gr. Sierra Palma bullets. Use crappy primers get crappy results. Only one "no bang" so far and I think it was a plugged flash hole or a bad primer. Leaning toward the plugged flash hole. (walnut)
Always very good contents in your program.Very valid stuff and we need mor of such programs and real live cenarious.Most people don't even bother about it but this is a distinguishing vactor of a pro to and amature in later live!!Knowledge!!
Small primer brass is marginally better shows up in the coarse of a shooting season. But it was more consistent. Consistent often leads to accuracy. New brass is probably more accurate, also what is the H20 capacity of Palma vs Regular 308 brass. Think you really covered it. Shoot stick not ball for small primer and watch the cold weather....
Yeah, CCI primers are definitely not "hot" by any stretch of the imagination. W-W, R-P, and Fed are all hotter in comparable primer types than CCI. They are highly reliable and ignite really really long as you hit them with a strong enough strike.
I have two 6.5 Creedmoors. I use Lapua brass with CCI 450 magnum primers. I'm on my second barrel on both rifles and I have never had a hang fire. (H4350 and RL-17) You should test them in the small primer/small flash hole test. Also, I have read that the yellowing of powder is from soap residue (not rinsing enough) from wet washing (tumbling or ultrasonic) cleaning. I'm not sure if that is true or not. Maybe one of your viewers has some input on that.
I'm interested to know if that when there is a misfire are your cartridges pressurized from the primer? In some pistol cases I've seen that the bullet is separated from the case and has entered the barrel so I was wondering here in the rifle cartridge if the cartridge is still pressurized or has depressurized by the time you take it apart? I've also found much good scientific material related to primers online. Here is a link to one of the several I find in a Google Search. www.researchgate.net/publication/48204066_High-speed_measurement_of_rifle_primer_blast_waves
I agree .308 videos are fun. My wife is shooting a T/C Compass in .308 lately. She is working up to 1000 yards. Last month she reached out 610 yards on 12" steel targets. Fun stuff!
mutantmutton yes Sir I’m having so much fun with my rig and this cartridge. I’m extremely new to reloading so it extremely cool that Johnny is doing this. And I can follow along.
mutantmutton , i came to this video to see if anyone knew if Johnny is ok . Well i hope he is alright. I miss his him. Kinda strange to miss someone i ain't never met but he is so honest and down to earth.I really hope all is well.
As usual great video. I do have a question. What do you think would happen if you reshot the loads that gave you all the hang fires with a magnum primer?
Great video. What I understand from talking to a lot of bench rest shooters, if you run small primers on rounds that are designed for large, like the .308 or 6.5 Creed and others you can run into reliability issues if you do not run magnum or bench rest primers. Something that burns a lot hotter. If consistent ignition is the goal say for hunting then you should stick with the primers that the case was originally designed for. If you want the smallest standard deviation and POTENTIALLY smaller groups then small primers can be the answer. Got this same information from multiple sources I always just run Large primers in standard short action case and small primers in mini action style cases.
Johnny, my father just gave me his remmington 7mm mag he bought 30 years ago. Its priceless and not a scratch on it. He reloaded for it for years, but his health is too bad to allow him to continue to. I'd love if you could do a video on reloading 7mm mag, so I can follow along and maybe keep the tradition alive. Love all the videos you do! Thanks.
7mm mag is nothing special to reload. Check out Johnny's vids on his 300 win mag, there's great information for reloading magnum cartridges, but except for brass sizing there's nothing really special.
does a softer primer strike influence the primer ignition capability? I would run the same test with the original trigger group to see the results on the SB PRIMER....IMHO. Nice video once again.
Is your 24 inch Wylde barrel on the back burner? I acquired one from Midway awhile back and looked on-line to find some info on what loads it liked. Some RU-vidrs have them but have not done a lot with them. I set out to find my own results and have some success and would like to share the info with you. I'm just not sure how best to do that. Keep up the good work i enjoy your video's
S&B seems capable of some okay groups, I would feel guilty taking them off the inventory list just for that reason; certainly never waste powder either (I was like "Johnny don't fire all of them! 5 hang-fires'll do") really I would ask Obi wan and he'd say patience. Then next time you go on in to the store and just see which isn't in stock ;) decide later and maybe you won't have to. I would focus on some more optimal primer situation with 4895 and investigate the standard deviations in flash hole size amongst different sm primers
I recall the discussion when small primer Palma brass was introduced as follows: 1) You get more loadings with the smaller flash hole as there is more material in the case bottom to resist "loosening" 2) Smaller primers make for "softer" ignition. This means you can use more powder to achieve higher velocities without exceeding the SAAMI limit. This being like using a less "quick" propellant.
On those cases that had hang fires was the primer seated completely with the 3 anvil feet at the primer pocket bottom, or did the firing pin push the primer to the fully seated position after it fired?
Double base powders usually require a hotter or a primer with a longer burn. due to the facts the double base powder graduals are coated with graphite's.
Always very good contents in your program.Very valid stuff and we need mor of such programs and real live cenarious.Most people don't even bother about it but this is a distinguishing vactor of a pro to and amature in later live!!Knowledge!!
Ol target shooters know that ball powders can be hard to light with some primers. W748 and H335 are the worst. Suggest that the test is re run with Federal or CCI matchprimers and Varget.. the only ball powder I run these days is CFE Black in a 17 Hornet.
Well Johnny, its been a fantastic run! I hope all is well with you and yours. Still the best reloading channel ever! Just give us a message to let us know that you didn't blow your face off!
2024 and large rifle and pistol primers are nonexistent, small primer full power cartridges would be nice to have just to use the small rifle primers that are plentiful.
It is sad to watch this in June of 2022 as reloading supplies are almost non-existent. I used to love reloading but that is a thing of the past in this point in time.
The small flash holes were put in for what?? Competition shooters using the rifle under a very specific and controlled set of circumstances. Bolt guns, competition loads built to function a particular way. This makes using them for sporting ar rifle seem silly. But I’m just putting that into its correct context. Why not use large primer brass for your .308 ar? So crazy it just might work. And no one needs this ‘problem’ diagnosed, because put into correct context, it’s not a problem.
Small rifle primers gave you better standard deviations because the small primer blast stacks less deviation into the equation we call a gunshot. It's a thing is hornet loaders understand. The weaker the printer, provided it is hot enough to give ignition, the more consistent your load. The issue you were having was that the SRP was simply too little to consistently ignite that charge of ball powder in that size of a case.
The Barrel harmonics like 2635 better than 2662. Also, you need more 335 in those cases because a 1/2 case of powder is not covering the flash hole enough.
