308 Win vs 277 FURY: We Have A Problem! 

Sig was on the meateater podcast (I know. I know...) and had some comments about the powder chemistry changing significantly down the road. They made it seem like the charge for 80k psi isn't just packing a bunch of powder in the brass/steel, but also a change is what the load will be fueled by eventually and has something to do with why they won the contract. I guess we'll see, but like you, until then, I'm sticking with old reliable.

@@lllhunterlll9644 while I agree, I don't want to fund r&d. The cost:benefit isn't there yet. It will but not yet.

Watch some who_tee_who

I second this.

Check out Rattlesnake Defense.... Pretty good guy, (gun owner, decade plus gun store employee) just trying to build his channel with real life experiences...

While Demo Ranch has done some really informative destructive testing and alleviated my fears of accidentally turning my rifle into a glorified pipe bomb, it does feel like their target audience is about 12 years old. That's why I mostly watch Ron Spomer Outdoors.

@@mattrickard3716 check out Paul Harrell

Cost and time of building a reinforced concrete structure is another factor

Ceramic plates break stuff up pretty well too.

​@@HWG-wm8ldConcrete creates nasty fragments of bullets and concrete flying around.

Yeah. And you can transport empty hescos or sand backs easily.

@@jackdburmy buddy makes his cannon balls out of concrete.

ffs this is like using 38 spl to claim 357 mag is not good enough ... this standard casing hunting ammo is SEVERELY underloaded than the actual 277 Fury ...

@@Asghaad take a moment to read franklewis comment then realize how you need to work on your comprehension skills.... never mind I doubt you can figure it out without help, if civilians cant get mil spec 277 and the only option is what was tested in this vid then .308 is the better choice by far why waste money downgrading?

@@xomox5316 you do know that there are three variants of the cartridge out of which TWO are available... Right ? Yes the higher pressure bi-metal case ammo is available... He didnt test it because HIS GUN CANT HANDLE IT not because he cant get it... Ffs before going on AdHominem rant taking 80% of your post maybe get the facts straight, maybe, just maybe you will not make such a fool out of yourself...

I bought a ferrari. I've been putting e85 in it. Why isn't it driving better?

Come on you should have been able to find those bullets they were right there

this. i can't stand when people call it "outdated".

@flawseeingeye I agree. Take the .50 bmg, for example, it's over 100 years old, and I don't see people saying it's outdated. Kinda ruins any argument for most people claiming certain rounds are outdated.

Armor (vehicles) used to be thin enough that it was reasonable to expect a shoulder arm to penetrate it, toward the end of ww2 that was no longer the case. The result is a focus on more realistic (shorter) ranges with better accuracy while lightening the load on the individual troopers.

I have no idea why we had SIG Sauer develop a new cartridge only for it to perform about the same as .308 with its normal ammo and only marginally better with its absurd 80k PSI ammo

​@@trashcompactorYTMoney

And Scrapnel...

We said that for .50BMG

@@ThePimpedOutPlatypusit’s better to get hit by the 50cal with out being behind a barrier. Depending on the type of 50 cal round and type of barrier.

Civilian funded military development

because it is very close to being a 7mm... 277 is only 0.007 inch difference in diameter as the 7mm is a .284. besides you can hand load a 7-08 to 277 velocities.

.277 fury IS the 'civilian' version of 6.8x51mm, just to make that distinction.

But what happens when you load a 277 past that, it’s not fair to compare hot hand loads to factory ammo

277 is simply: A modernized 7-08rem that can MAYBE emulate 270 win performances with vaporware bi component cased military ammo ....

​@@levergatRaphaSo essentially what you are saying is the new military cartridge is a modernized uber expensive version of something that has essentially existed on the market for quite a while now, correct?

So now we need is 308 api or ap explosive rounds for the full effectiveness 😂

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa .... No.

LOL You are so extremely far from the truth. Either you are a blind 308 fanboy or you are totally clueless. The industry has passed the 308 a VERY long time ago and have passed it MANY times. It is really not that hard to do. Can the 308 still do a great job? Yes. Is it still plenty good enough for many uses? Yes. Is it best at anything? Very far from it.

@@lanceroberthough1275as I understand it, inside 500 yards, 308 is still king. What similar round is outperforming it? Serious question, if there is one, I don’t know.

Spot on observation.

Tru-dat! If you don't clean out the old projectiles, the new rounds will impact more than just sand.

The M-80 7.62 NATO cartridge was tested for sandbag penetration and IIRC they found max penetration around 200 yds. Closer impacts caused the bullet to break up and farther away reduced the velocity enough to also reduce penetration. Sand IS a bitch. And for the other tests I agree that the rounds are so close that bullet construction is the main difference you're seeing.

Um, no, it's actually the 30-06 SPR. You, however, are "entitled" to your opinion. 😉😉😉

And if it is a little much for your aching and aging shoulder, it's little brother the .243 is a similar do it all cartridge, everything from coyote to white tail. With a lot less kick.

I agree, 308 is the standard by which all other cartridges are judged. I know the 30-06 folks luv their soap box and there is no doubt that the 30-06 is a great round but even though the 30-06 is a parent cartridge all the comparisons are against the 308. And let's be real here, 308 wins against a 30-06 out to about 500 yards. If you're shooting 600+ yards consistently then the 30-06 beats the 308 HOWEVER, the 30-06 then needs to compare against many other long range solutions. Bottom line, 308 is the standard for the standard. Most hunters shoot within 500 yards and 308 rules that space.

It's funny at about 100 yards, you get some results like this: 150gr .308 Win 19" penetration .55" expansion 180gr .30-06 Spg 22" penetration .60" expansion 150gr .30-30 Win 23" penetration .616"+ expansion

i only know of 3 rounds based on the 30-06 case. how many are based off the 308?

308 is stopped by 8 inches of oak. Pressure treated lumber is softwood like pine.

The only reason 277 Fury exists is specifically because the DOD didn't want to "go back" to .308/7.62x51 for their main service weapons. Their logic - the actual, real reason they used as to they don't want to go back to .308 was because "it's an old cartridge and we moved away from it. Going back to it would feel like a mistake, and the US Military doesn't make mistakes." That's it - that's literally the whole reason. So we have this nonsense cartridge being rotated into military service that is functionally worse than 7.62x51, logisically-similar enough to cause stupid problems (e.g. having mutli-caliber-compatible weapon systems that can be chambered in either cartridge on a battallon level, like the new XM250). The only real, quantifiable benefit to switching to this new cartidge is that the US can push it on the rest of NATO to formally adopt. Since the new .277 Fury cartridge is a joint-venture that's owned between both the US Gov't Sig, there are no other entities that have technical data packages for producing compatible brass, projectiles, magazines, barrels, etc. This, effectively, allows the US to make of money by scraping out royaltees on any sales of new production materiel to other countries. That's, realistically, reason this cartridge exists: To potentially extract defense-budget money from other NATO countries, so that we can make defense budget bigger.

Big Mike reminds me of the guys in the bar that have a simple answer for all conflicts. "Just nuke em"@@bigmike-

​​@@bigmike- that makes a lot of sense with government defense spending. I studied this video and came to the conclusion that trying to find hard differences between the 2 ammo is a waste of time. As far as real life application go there literally the exact same thing speed performance and damage wise. The differences between the cartridges are extremely negligible.

And you can always get 308.

@@beastprime7668 the big difference is being able to add a suppressor to a .308 equivalently powered rifle, and not have an unwieldy mess. I personally don't think it's worth it. M855A1 satisfactorily solved the issues of prior 556. There is more reasoning than you've given them credit for, though. Don't forget that the M5 is part of an entire system: the rifle, cartridge, suppressor, and optic are all dependent on each other, not standalone.

As far as i know this will perform similar to a .308 out of a 20 inch barrel while needing only a 13inch barrel to do so. I guess we all are excited fpr the day when the full rifle setup find their way into public hands so everyone can test it.

I don't see how that difference makes sense economically in a major war. 556 in the US and the equivalent for Russia are the standards for a good reason. Specialty round 277 is fine. Mass use? A big mistake in conflicts like Ukraine or Gaza.

I think the 277 bimetal runs about 3100

Avg 3067fps out of the xm7 rifle that garand thumb tested ​@@Neuron429

Not sure what MV a 135gr 6.5 gets from a 20" AR10. Do you know?

@@DBravo29er The 277 Fury case has just a little more capacity, closer to a 7mm-08 Ackley Improved.

The Hybrid case really does cook! You're getting into 30-06 territory with Hybrid loads! Here's the what the 150 grain Hybrid .277 can do: Muzzle Velocity: [16in: 2830] [24in: 3120] Muzzle Energy: [16in: 2667] [24in: 3242]

@@TheTGRproductions Yeah that's real close to 270 WIN. Might be slightly more, or less, but it's right in that ballpark. And 270 Winny is a 30-06 case necked-down to accept a .277 bullet.

@@DBravo29er It's actually impressive, .277 150 grain Hybrid is almost the exact same as as 150 grain 270 Winchester in a 16 inch barrel, .270 Win just barely edges it out! But in a 24 inch barrel, the .277 Hybrid actually beats it out in velocity by about 270 FPS, and 530+ foot lbs of Energy! I really hope other companies or Sig start making Hybrid Cartridges for stuff like .308, 5.56, 30-06, etc! It's a game changer to be sure!

Agree. luv my AR10. Can do everything an AR15 can do AND performs as well as a 30-06 out to about 500 yards. Sure ammo is heavier than the 556, get to the gym 😁

​@@humansustainability you're one hike away from changing your mind on "does everything just as well!"

@@constantk8780 You make a good point that should not be overlooked. The increased weight is a limiting factor for many people. However, those with the strength and stamina will benefit from the increased power and range of the 7.62 undoubtedly outperforms the 5.56. I train with a 60lb INCH, a 9mm with 3 reloads and a REPR with 6 reloads. 30mi out to camp and 30mi back. It's not enough to finish WWIII but I think 69 of 9mm and 176 of 7.62mm is a decent load out. Add geocaches into the mix for resupply and I think I've got most contingencies covered. Stay safe out there.

I have a Tanker 16" M1A I have hog hunted with, and a Ruger American Rifle Gen II in .308 and they are both superb tools

I have 300 rounds of this ammunition and it is amazing! Well, I have 260 left anyway. 2009 date on the white boxes, Lot # FC-10C700-006 130 grn OTM T762TNB1 B.C. of .340 I think. Now I'm going to have to test it!

Was it only able to achieve that performance with a long ass barrel though? Because the M7 has a 13 inch barrel

@@BlargeManThey’re going to go through a lot of barrels very quickly. Me thinks they didn’t think this through. Very high performing round. The cost? Extremely high pressure cartridges that will burn up the barrel in 10,000 rounds, knowing damn well the DOD WILL NOT change out the barrels as scheduled.

@@isaiahmarquez9717 “me thinks”. All credibility lost.

3300fps out of what a 36" barrel? You are about 400fps off reality. These are the specs direct from CRANE- (7.62MM Enhanced) 130 grain OTM (reverse drawn Jacket) Bullet Temp stable flash reduced Propellant Not yaw dependant Reduced recoil (10%) Optimized for MK 17 (16” BBL) 2925 fps @ 15’ 2750 fps @ 15 (13” CQC BBL

.308 said hold my beer 🍺 😊

velocity translates into fragmentation... if you want penetration from a high velocity bullet, you need to shoot solids.

@@renaissanceman5847 22-250 using a 55 grain bullet will zip right through 1/2 plate of mild steel. And that is with a 55 grain soft point!

I went to the metal scrap yard and bought some steel for a .308 target, thinking it would be reusable. Silly me. I watched this video and realized it's not going to stand up.

@@rt66rc86 not of it hits 6 inches of wood first.

Isn’t there a squad MG being designed for this cartridge as well by , of course, Sig? So then it Is replacing it.

Seems unnecessary.

From what I understand it's to replace 7.62 NATO and specialty. Units may have a. Chance but this is huge step from 556 double or triple the power

@@peternorton5648 Squad level MG is the M249 SAW, a 5.56 firing platform. The crew served M240 is the 7.62x51 MG. It is not organic to a squad.

It's designed to defeat the Commie Body Armor.

lol the US military did ask that question, and they did get a perfect answer, sorry your 308 is doodoo :(

​@@adamdavis7271I'm guessing you have never actually even shot before, let alone either of these rounds. Definitely a product of a single mother and public school

It’s like being a consultant.

The Sig fury is just an answer to the tiny 5.56 poor power.

This is the reduced-recoil version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo. The full pressure round would do better, especially since it will use the 2nd gen steel-tipped Enhanced Penetration Round (EPR).

Correct. Using a full power round as a standard issue rifle is not the best idea. The weapon system M5 will be great as a DMR but not standard issue. The M4 and 5.56 will continue on. The new M855A1 round solves alot of 5.56 problems and performs very well. But without making a larger weapon or heavier ammo. I handled the Sig and it is heavier and bulkier. M4 is much more ergonomic

Shot placement is what matters. These caliber debates are fun, but meaningless. A .38 or a 308 goes through your heart, dead. A .38 or 308 goes through your lung, you have a hole in your lung, not dead. My favorite is these idiots that feel safe here in Sitka carrying a 10mm handgun for bear protection.

@@HWG-wm8ld a rifle round is significantly different than a pistol round....not even close

​@@jhutch1470confused on your statement. As 6.8spc and 277 fury are two different rounds.

@@johnkrstyen7351 Oh crap, I just looked up the differences. I had originally heard that 6.8 SPC was going to be the military's new go to, so I thought that people were just calling it in it's caliber form, like the 5.56 and .233. Ooof, how wrong I was. I deleted the other post so people wouldn't have to read my idiocy. LOL. Thanks.

Angles… like sloped armor on a tank?

for hunting / recreational shooting it is, for military purpose the actual combat load bi-metal 277 Fury makes 308 utterly obsolete

@@Asghaad pretty much…. The problem is logistics. Replacing all barrels with 277 fury and tooling up for mass ammo production in this inflationary environment and “supply chain problems”… wish 277 was widely available and affordable 😐

@@joquin4618 it will happen, though the market will be flooded by TONS of surplus 308s once the US military fully transitions to M250 which will replace all 308 machineguns but that will probably take decades and no they wont be replacing just barrels, whole point of NGSW program was to find a MACHINEGUN to replace M249 and M240 (unless they change tehyr mind and also adopt the M338) the M7 is just "oh by the way we will take assault rifle in the same cartridge" but logistically it would make more sense to stick with one cartridge especially if the general infanry will use the same one ... 277 Fury has potential to totally unify the small arms ammunition in US military, from general infantry, Designated marksman, squad automatic, general purpose machinegunner and even sniper all can use ONE cartridge - the 277 ... just imagine how that simplifies logistical chain when you can dump 5.56, 308, 6.5 Creed and replace them all with one universal caliber

Yes, sand and dirt are great bullet stoppers. Sand however is difficult to contain. Sandbags tear after a few rounds of impact and dry sand will run out like water. A sandy dirt that will somewhat hold its shape and not pour out like water would be your best bet for bunker cover.

Yes, but he is also using a the reduced-recoil version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo.

@@jfess1911 that shouldn’t factor in very much unless he went way down on his charge.

@@albundy7459 He used SIG factory 135 grain FMJ "practice" ammo which is downloaded to 308 pressure levels (he shows the box at 11:09). It is designed to cause less damage to the barrels and the targets than the full pressure stuff. According to SIG's data, their full pressure ammo pushes a 150 grain bonded bullet to 270 WSM speeds (3120 fps) out of a 24" barrel. That's about 20% more energy than the practice ammo.

Using brass ammo makes this a useless test.

@@wathaet1386 handloads are better than factory ammo 100% of the time.

Good idea. FWIW, I tested shooting an 8"x16"x8" high "concrete"/cinder block filled with sand (about 5" thick of sand in cavity). It stopped IMI 7.62x51mm NATO 150gr FMJ from a 20" long barrel AR-10 style (PSA).

762×51 > 762×63 Short action vs long action alone wins the contest.

The 30 06 does better with heavier bullets than 308...if you're gonna stick with standard 150g...308 is better...if you're gonna use 200+ for big dangerous things...30 06 wins

the 06 is only better with heavy bullets 180 plus but your shoulder will say NO WAY

You mean the corrosion cell that will definitely cause problems anywhere wet? I have no idea how that managed to get approved, it's a terrible idea.

Even if he had it, it still wouldn’t be conclusive. The military rounds are using a proprietary powder blend that is still classified and SIG can’t ship with civilian ammo.

@@Clockwork0nionswonder what army they're equipping themselves to fight against 🤔

​@@rob6850the same ones as before. What the 277 is meant to do (at 80k psi) is be a 308 with a shorter barrel. The idea is equivalent performance, flat trajectory, light weight.

@@danielrouw2593 Not to mention much quicker as well.

That's something I was wondering, I've heard the military spec loads are supposed to be much more powerful, and most arguments over 277 are if it's worth the recoil and barrel burn for military use, esp. since .308 is cheaper and sufficiently effective in both sniper and DMR roles, and 277 is intended for the new DMR/BR/MG SIG guns we're apparenlty adopting. That in itself aside from the 5.56 argument for ammo on hand and logistics concerns.

@@V3RTIGO222 That's the point. The US military no longer considers the 7.62x51 sufficiently effective in those roles. Decent body armor is getting more common and the DMR and sniper ammo is not effective against even mediocre body armor at range. Once level 3 body armor began showing up on third world battlefields like Syria, the US Military got worried. Less than $100 body armor can now stop our current DMR, sniper and MG rounds at battlefield distances.

Go with a bolt gun on .277, AR 10 would be pretty beat up with that kind of energy.

This is the reduced-recoil version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo. The full power ammo is closer to 270 WSM power. The M7 uses a 13" barrel, though, so performance is closer to a regular 24" 270 Win.

@@jfess1911 True, that's a fair and accurate point. I still think it's curious how the army is going back to a caliber nearly identical in dimensional diameter to the 7.62x51 NATO🤔

@@johntrimpe2032 A lot of that has to do with punching through body armor. Even with high velocity specialized ammo, the effectiveness of smaller diameter bullets is limited (its a geometry thing). Once decent body armor started showing up in third world fights light Syria, the US Military decided they needed something to deal with future adversaries. The big question is whether this will put the soldiers at a disadvantage overall, since most fights still are against unarmored opponents and at relatively close range.

In all seriousness I’m not trying to start an argument. Can civilians reasonably obtain military loads? If not, it seems a fair test to me.

I agree, also the government gets super spicy bullets that aren't given to the civilian market

Have to step up to .30-06 to compare the 6.8.

This is the reduced-recoil version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo. The full power is closer to 270 WSM performance.

What is stopping them from making 80kpsi 308 rounds?xD

@@davidh9659 Nothing. In fact, it has already been done. As soon as the hybrid ammo became available, people began wildcatting. The recoil would be greater and the ammo would need be heavier to achieve the same effective range, though. The Army made the decision to go with 6.8 and provided the bullets for the NGSW competitors to design around. There has been a suggestion to make high-pressure 5.56 weapons as well, but the relatively stubby bullets needed for 5.56x45 limit long range potential. The higher pressure would help with body armor penetration, though.

I’ll have to see what I can do. Just started handguns but haven’t posted anything yet

@@bananaballistics pressure treated wood doesn’t make it tougher it just makes it more resistant to rotting when it’s in contact with concrete

On the mil side of the house, the .277 is said to do exactly that. I can only go off of the numbers provided by Sig as we haven’t gotten the new ammo for me to shoot it myself yet for comparison. But it’s supposed to be a flatter flying projectile like you said and I believe it’s supposed to deliver more energy on impact at distance than the 7.62 NATO.

@@harrisonpeck130 The goal was to get better penetration of body armor, even when using the 13" barrel of the M7. The high pressure really helps with shorter barrels. This test used the reduced-recoil (practice) version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo.

Highly doubt that is true at long range, but it's irrelevant. If you can not do the extremely simple task of hold-over or dial-up, you shouldn't be shooting. ALL CARTRIDGES require compensation.

Probably better, seeing as it's got a whole lot more power behind it, and I believe they have steel cores. Now, 7.62x51 AP vs 8.8x51 would be an interesting test.

​@@theodorehunter4765Agreed, too bad M80A1 is damn near impossible to get ahold of, and if you buy it online the ATF and FBI will be watching you like a hawk 😂

Brass will contract a bit after expanding to fill the chamber, steel more or less doesn't like to spring back to its original shape, and clings to the chamber; makes it much harder on extractors. Higher pressures will exacerbate the issue. There's a reason 7.62x39 has a strong taper, because it was designed with steel cases in mind, but that also limits powder capacity.

With a 12.5 M80 is out of gas at about 650-700 yards. I need to get some 168 and 175 to see how they do

@@PointBlank65 M80 is also about 150-200fps slower than commercial 308 loads. I only shoot 165gr or heavier out of mine.

​@PointBlank65 150ishgr 308 drops below 1000 ft lbs(widely accepted whitetail minimum) by 350 or so yds with hunting rifle length barrels of 22+ inches. Because of those numbers, I'm wondering what you mean by a 147 grain bullet from a 12.5" not running out of gas until so much further away. It's that only for paper, because of a rainbow trajectory needed to get out that far? Edit:Swype failures

@@jagx234 paper/steel , thinking of going to a 14.5 but 12.5 is so much fun at the range

The biggest advantage of the higher chamber pressure comes with short barrels. Even though it uses roughly the same amount of propellant as a 308, the higher initial chamber pressure does more in the first few inches of barrel. This test used the reduced-recoil version of the ammo that runs at lower pressure. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo.

This is the reduced-recoil version currently at $32/box from his source. The high pressure stuff is more expensive.

Of course it would. It's nearly identically ballistically to the much respected 7mm-08 Remington. I haven't looked at prices, but I bet it's way more expensive, though. It will be interesting seeing how the reloading situation will be for it, what with the (until now) unconventional bullet diameter, especially once people are able to get hold of the steel-headed super brass. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that the brass in that form won't be reloadable at all.

​@@Gunners_Mate_Gunswould the 7 PRC be close to the 7mm-08?

The high pressure makes better use of shorter barrels, great for hunting with a suppressor. According to the data on SIG's site, a 277 Fury rifle with a 16" barrel gives traditional 270 Win (24" barrel) performance and with a 24" barrel, the Fury equals the 270 WSM. The other advantage is that the less expensive lower-pressure rounds would still work well for most hunting at relatively shorter ranges. This way one rifle could take the place of two. You would only use the expensive, high pressure ammo if you were hunting bigger game or at longer distances.

I believe the length of the SiG M5 is 13 inches. The military round also has a hardened penetraor in the tip similar to M855 or M855A1. Not sure if it's steel or tungsten.

The military isn't using an 11 inch it's a 13.5 inch barrel and the velocity it's getting is still around 2900fps according to Alabama Arsenal and InrangeTV's videos

And it’s a complete waste of money, short term and long term.

@@HWG-wm8ld it's all politics. Sig is simply putting money into higher up people's pockets to get big contracts. The military isn't actually switching M4 to the M5

@@nemisous83 so the velocity of 6.5 CM. And they have suppresors and a much thicker barrel which makes it extremely front heavy. 20 round mags and more recoil will make it harder for below average stature soldiers. It's a massive walk back from something like the HK 416 in M855a1 5.56.

Steel hybrid case 277 adds about 150-300fps from the brass case when driving the same bullet.

That short barrel is the entire reason for that barrel burning 80k psi chamber pressure.

The military isn't planning on using the .277 Fury in *any* weapon. The 6.8x51mm is an entirely differrent cartridge, despite being dinemensipnally identical. And, unlike the .277 Fury, the 6.8x51mm cartridge has a powder formulation designed to deliver those velocities from a 13" barrel, whereas the .277 Fury was formulated to reach lower velocities at lower pressures from a longer "non-NFA" rifle barrel. You *can't* buy 6.8x51mm equivalent ammo, unless it is literally stolen from the US military (or a government contractor who only has it to fulfill US military contract obligations).

@@geodkyt Correct!

@@geodkyt The powders will be pretty much the same since SIG is pushing for its use in 16" and shorter barrels for hunting use with suppressors. Saint Marks Powders is making the propellant for both. Even the currently available hunting ammo gives traditional 270 Win-like performance but from 16" barrels and 270 WSM performance from 24" barrels. The big difference will, of course, be the bullets, and you are right about them.

@@FluxApex we've been through plenty of classes, good advice though.

It's very thoughtful of those future honors students to bring pews to school for everyone to have a place to sit.

High velocities help in fragmentation. Lol shooting into water, a pistol will penetrate more than a rifle.

The military .277 is way hotter than the civilian version, and it was developed for military use so

Agreed. There's not an AR10 in the domestic market that can even run full-house 6.8x51. SIG has not supplied a single XM7 outside of the MIL that has actually been tested past 6k rounds on the full power ammo. Further, the hybrid case civilian ammo is actually 100+fps slower than the MIL stuff. I say this as a huge 270 WIN fan and it's the first rifle caliber I ever got.

277 fury will never be adopted in a big capacity

​@JackHoff-cz3eq No they will field it and it will become a dmr, it's to heavy, the ammo is not ap with regular projectiles, everything about it is a scam and that high pressure ammo will be left by the wayside, congress will spend billions to find out the military doesn't even like it once they find out, the ammo is heavy, the magazine holds 20 rounds and the recoil is too much. Total redo of history here, m14 I'm talking to you.

​@@JackHoff-cz3eqSmall Arms Solutions has a good video on this topic. I think he'll likely be right, the military will only adopt it in a limited capacity and the AR platform (5.56) will remain the standard. He goes into detail as to why.

In its low-pressure loading, as used here, it is very close to a 7mm-08 Ackley Improved (the .277 case has slightly more capacity than a standard 7mm-08).

This isn’t biochemistry, it’s just a fun comparison…it’s called banana ballistics. I really think he does this to make all you caliber weiners lose your shit.

Mmm i don't know, they used to say the same about 30.06