Testing the 9mm 115 gr American Gunner VS the .38 Special American Gunner in a 10% Clear Ballistics gel test with and without 1/4" MDF and denim. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...
We’ve got some of those HKS here. They are kind of “the original.” I know there are newer, better, etc., but they work and you can get them for nearly anything. My wife carried that exact speedloader when she wore her Model 66 on duty back in Texas, years ago.
@@lanedexter6303 I like them because a normal gun store will have them for like $10. Sure the better expensive ones are nice, but the HKS are a must have when you buy a new gun. Very nice for having several for a range trip.
I wonder why you don't use mdf on the back of the clear block as well, since ribs and vertebrae are on the back side of anyone, too? Seems like "over penetration" would always be subject to hitting those bones on the rear. 🤔
Having come up through the era of "hotter is better" (and having to admit I STILL have Federal 9bple +P+ in most of my 9mms) I have become fascinated with how well a "lower power" (on paper at least) round like .38 special does so well on human targets. I've often suspected there's something we're not taking into consideration. Something like overall length of the projectile, balance point ... I don't know. But .38 special wouldn't have been the law enforcement king for most of the 20th century if it wasn't "enough." Another great video. Keep 'em coming! :)
I've noticed that lower velocity rounds get more straight-line penetration in gel, especially if the round is decently heavy. They tend to not cavitate at all, though.
@@kellenphan7198 - I've noticed the same thing. Crazy to see, for instance, such a sedate round as non-expanding .44 special penetrate as much or more as an expanding .44 magnum (although as you note, with much less destruction).
I'm not a 9mm fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I do like your little Ruger. I've always been a Ruger fan and always will. I agree that the 38 Special is actually better than the 9mm. With the 38 you've got a huge selection of loads to choose from, whether mild or wild. The 9mm ( or any semi auto) is severely limited because of the OAL of the cartridge and the shape of the bullet. The only way to experiment with semi auto rounds is really the powder. A revolver will shoot anything as long as the bullet doesn't protrude beyond the length of the cylinder.
I have a Security 9, and it's never jammed. The only thing it can't do is hard primers. Bought some LAX Ammo (Freedom Munitions) andit wouldn't set off those cartridges reliably
38spl is really weak. most 9mm is easily pushing over 300 ft lbs of energy and even some .38+p can’t reach that. .38 spl pushes a similar weight bullet as a 9mm but at SIGNIFICANTLY less speed.
Had a Beretta 92FS and with JHP ammo jammed on average 1 out of 350 shots. Had a Taurus 0.357Mag and jammed or misfired 0 times out of over 500 shots. I'll stick with the weaker wimpier 38 spl and have it in case it's needed. I am now and have been a revolver guy for some years now.
I think people give the 9mm way too much credit, and the 38 not nearly enough. The 38 did the job for many many years, and honestly i dont know if youd be able to feel the difference between dying from a 124gr+p+ HST fancy smancy to the heart, and dying from a 158gr lead slug to the heart. Just saying
The fact is that, if you count out the large/powerful cartridges like .44 Magnum and up which most people aren't going to carry regularly, no handgun cartridge is ideal for "one-shot stops". There is a LOT of information on the internet, and folks can draw their own conclusions, of course. Not that I want to be shot with ANYTHING, not even a BB gun, but very few handguns are instant "death rays" the way Hollywood makes them out to be. Pick what works for you, and practice, a lot. Rifles and shotguns, that's a completely different story.
When considering over penetration, in a real life scenario, the target would also have bone and clothing on the back/exit side. It would be interesting to look at over penetrating rounds and retest with fiber board and denim both in front and in back of a length of clear ballistics cut to represent the depth of an average torso. That would be an very interesting set of tests and could put to rest a lot of concerns about over penetration.
I could potentially add rib simulation on the back. The main reason I do not is that most good ammo stops at less than the gel block, which is 19" if you include the first 3" section.
@@GunSam I was suggesting you review your previous studies, pick out the more note worthy over penetrating loads and try them in that set up. It could be a real game changer in the whole over penetration controversy. If they do not exist through bones/clothing on the back they would be much less of a risk, except, perhaps in a nudest colony!!
Another excellent comparison.. I like how these tests are super standardized and refined. Definitely scientific and repeatable. These videos make a great database for anyone looking to learn what ammo will work with handguns of a particular size.
To be completely honest and transparent, the only reason I bought a 9 mm firearm, is because when Armageddon arrives and passes and the world is burned down to ashes. The likelihood of finding scattered 9 mm ammunition will be extremely high. Everybody and their mama and Mama's boyfriends cousin has a9mm.
Thanks Sam great test as usual! You’ve proven again if you’re limited to standard pressure 38 special just use lead SWC,RN, or full wad cutter especially in compact or snub revolvers.
Have always hated the XTP bullet. I've seen a few videos of that revolver having problems. I was thinking about getting it, but it was out of stock for years. When it came into stock at a good price, my state outlawed guns. Now buying guns in Oregon is forbidden. 40K people are waiting for background checks. The system stopped working and very few gun dealers will sell a gun after 3 days without a check.
I have said many times that the XTP seems to need some velocity, say 1100+ fps, in order to work. That being the case, it is more suited to magnum revolvers or the 357 Sig. I believe it was intended as a hunting bullet, and Hornady is trying to give it a broader application. Something tells me the 158 gr 357 mag might be excellent for certain things. Reminder: a 38+P is still running st substantially less pressure than a 9mm. IIRC, 38 +P SAAMI spec max pressure is 17,500 (PSI, I think), and 9mm is around 30,000. So the 9mm has an advantage to begin with, where velocity is concerned. This makes the performance of many 38+P loads all the more impressive. People need to stop getting hung up at the mere appearance of +P and claiming it is unfair.
MY THOUGHTS TOO -- BOTTOM LOADS FOR 9mm ARE OVER 20,000 -- MAX LOADS FOR 38+P ARE AT 20,000 - ACTUALLY A PERFECT COMPARISON TO ME -- LOADS I CARRY IN MY 38 ARE JUST A COUPLE TENTHS OF A GRAIN INTO THE +P RANGE & THEY SUIT ME -- DONT FEEL UNDERGUNNED UNLESS MAYBE THE BAD GUY IS 300 lbs & DRESSED IN EXCEPTIONALLY HEAVY WINTER CLOTHING -- THEN I'D RATHER HAVE MY 357 BUT ALL IN ALL -- THE 38 IS ALL I FEEL I NEED
@@jimnagel5611 Yep. A good +p load is all you need. Many felons were checked into the morgue in the 70's and 80's with a 158 gr +p lodged in their back muscles, nicely expanded (no overpenetration). Those were fired from 4" or 6" guns of course, but it worked. The RCMP carried a special version if that load which would get 1000 fos in their 5" Model 10's. They did not switch to autos until the mid 90's, and they went with one of the better 40 loads (i forget which) in the Beretta 96D. They were very careful not to give up any hitting power when they evaluated new ammo.
38 special is the winner. Went further in the gel but in human with denser tissue, bones etc that is a plus. Lower recoil as well. No doubt 9mm is popular these days( a lot to do with being cheaper), but 38 special is still king next to 357 magnum.
One awesome thing about having a Ruger 38sp revolver is that I can load 38s very, very HOT! They are built like tanks. You can load them so much more then a 9mm. Love reloading. Lotta experiments you can do.
I still have some like, .38+P+ loads that are 158 gr LRN bullets set deep like a wadcutter that I loaded a few years ago and never tried. I been curious about them.
When Brian Oldfield through the shot put he invented a swiveling circle spin method to throttle the putt across the masses of the air slicing threw going father than the crest
As an ex LEO from Spain....I have to say many ordinary cops and detectives carry 9mm HK USP but the detective's also carry a small .380 ACP for backup which is usually stored on their person or in their patrol vehicle...If tactical police (swat) need to come in...they use MR556 made by HK.
I would like to think that, the type of bullets implemented, can and will play a huge part in the outcome/destructive equation. For example, the extreme Defender bullets which looks like a Phillips screwdriver hands, is deadly extremely deadly possibly almost in any caliber I would think. Long Live my favorite caliber of all time. Used by the greatest detectives ever to set foot on screen. Never excluding the all-knowing famous never fools always solving any case that must be rude, mr. Colombo
Love the vids, Sam. I have the same 856 3" blue. I won't run Buffalo Bore or Underwood thru it, because I think they're too hot for that small, light frame. I usually stuff it with Remington 158 lswchp +p or 125 swchp +p. Both are good rounds & affordable
Digging the video n luvn that 3” piece, I had a 686+ in 3” model, sold it, And the only remaining .357 I have is the 640 pro model , Which I love Great video again GS am
Just an in the head estimate, but the 9mm was running with about a 50% energy advantage in this test. So the results on the gel kind of surprised me. I was also kind of surprised that you got near the 900fps advertised velocity. How much more effective the 9mm was is debatable. Obviously penetration comes at the expense of expansion, all things being equal. But exit wounds do tend to be nastier. It's probably confirmation bias or something going on with me, but it seems the 38 is more efficient with how it delivers the energy. Probably the size of the HP cavity. 9mm has to feed, you know?
Yeah, that's the exact thing going on. Why I think .38 Special is a bit better. Especially with SJHP or wadcutter ammo, so many cool things you can do that a 9mm can't. And if you feel the need, you can get 9mm velocity within 20,000 PSI with the right powder, albeit a tad more recoil, but the option is there which then makes the .38 Special+P a bit MORE effective than 9mm.
@@GunSam From a simple high school physics point of view, the math goes to the 9mm. Same diameter bullet with more energy in most cases. I'm undecided on hydraulic effects from higher velocity rounds of a given energy vs heavier rounds of the same energy. I simply don't have enough information. I will admit that for splashing water jugs, velocity wins. For serious use, I just don't know. Obviously you want the threat to stop as close to instantly as possible. Since feeding reliability isn't an issue with revolvers, there is a lot more you can do with bullet design. And as you noted, with the extra case capacity of the 38, you get to stuff more powder in the case as needed.
I'm not surprised the .38 performed the way it did. The XTP bullet is hard to expand anyway and using the low velocity of standard pressure round, poor results are to be expected. These lower end rounds not accurately represent the .38 special as a defensive load. The plus P loading with a better hollow point design is an excellent defensive load.
Yeah, my hand loads beat this load, more like 900+ in a 2" and 1,000 in a 4", and they do actually perform. I have tested my favorite hand loaded XTP, same 125 gr XTP and it did indeed expand.
Just like hammers, where a ballpeen hammer, a finishing hammer and a sledgehammer are all for different jobs. Guns are the same. Tools made for different jobs.
I’ve seen this line in .380, and would like to see what it does compared to regular FMJ. A basic standard pressure XTP seems like a decent choice in a .380.
Mac, as someone who really appreciates Sam's exhaustive work on ballistic testing, especially the 38 special / 357 magnum, you would be doing yourself a favor to explore some of the 380 acp ballistic testing of a channel called "ShootingtTheBull410". Just search 380 ammo quest in youtube. Well worth your time, and as a spoiler, XTP's do very well.
Fiocchi loads a 38 special +P XTP bullet that is 110 grains supposedly rated to 1100 fps. Would love some tests on that. I carry the Hornady Black XTP 124 grain myself which is the same round as the Custom line and tj iui s American Gunner line. The XTP bullet is nit as good as Speer or HST but they do pretty good.
How bout that, have the same two pistols setting next to one another in a draw. Rugers loaded with 115gr american gunner. Taurus loaded with critical defense +Ps.
Yes a few times here and there. One notable example was Speer's .327 Federal 100 gr Gold Dot. Pop open, hmm looks like Ramshot Enforcer powder, I weigh it at 14.5 grains. I then take some Ramshot enforcer powder I happen to have, weigh out 14.5 gr and put it in the case, and hmmm....fills the case exactly the same height as the factory load. I also found it interesting that Speer's load data shows Ramshot Enforcer, but they list 13.5 gr max charge with their 100 gr Gold Dot, so that yours is never as good as the one they want you to buy lol.
Id love to see the BEST ammo for each caliber compared. Imo federal hst 124gr +p is as good as it gets in 9mm. Id be curious what the best case scenario is for 38 special. Ive been eyeballing one of those wiley clap sp101's
That’s a great sign my man lol 😂 is that custom made or can it be purchased at a store because I definitely need one of those I mean I have warning signs but that one says it all ✌🏾
Nearly impossible to beat a good wheel gun with good ammo for reliability. But don't think they never fail. If a bullet jumps crimp, you get a hangfire, a squib, something gets between the hammer and firing pin, something gets between the frame and cylinder or God forbid 5 shots didn't get the job done. Well, now you might have more of a bludgeoning weapon than a gun. Wheel guns aren't infallible and many issues you might have are going to require tools to remedy. Besides that, a double action is not exactly overbuilt and stupidly simple internally. There's a delicate dance of springs, pins, connecting levers, sears and so on all working together that can and eventually will break. Don't trust your life to a junk quality revolver over something like a Glock is all I'm saying!
.38 Special is pretty good, in the middle for shootability sort of like how 9mm is. But from what I have read in a lot of real world incidents, the .38 Special seems to be more effective than 9mm despite having less energy. It's one of a handful 'can't go wrong with' cartridges due to power, shootability, ammo availability and cost etc.
I was wondering if adjusting the sight picture like; bringing the front closer to, or matching the right half of the rear sight wall would comensate for the obvious misalignment of the Taurus defender? I have the same gun, but with the VZ grips, and the color is two toned. Fortunately, I don't have the same problem, but you had me thinking about sight adjustments this afternoon when I was dry-firing.
I prefer the ballistics of the 38 over the 9. Back in the day the gun rags pushed the latest 9 (and 40) as the latest and greatest wonder weapons. The 38 was presented as equal with the 380 but less rounds. Better than a 32 but.... It was just baloney. Now, I have a friend with the taurus snubbie revolver in 9. How would that stack up to a snubbie 38+p.
@@rbm6184 Man... I hate havin' to send in firearms now that all mailin' companies are woke and in bed with alphabet agencies... Why can't things at high dollar be made correctly before bein' shipped to an FFL/SOT? If my problem isn't resolved by this adjustment, I am gonna have to go through the same Hell I went through with Taurus when my Raging Hunter hell apart... It is so freakin' expensive to ship firearms...
@@rbm6184 Did you hear about Taurus demanding gun control in Brazil? They also want to force other arms dealers and ammo makers out of business in that country. If they don't retract that, I will buy from them again
Ruger is pretty good. I have had a few issues with their semi autos a few times, their revolvers have been great. If S&W is a 10 out of 10 for both revolver and auto (which they are, I have only had one jam of any kind with a S&W pistol) I would say Ruger is a 9 for revolvers and a 7 for semi auto. S&W is 10 and 10.
I have a good reason not to choose +P. I have a Smith & Wesson Model 37 and a Model 67. I got both guns used within the past 20 years, and neither one came with a manual. I contacted Smith & Wesson to figure out when the guns were made and whether or not they were rated for +P ammunition. Both guns were made in the early 1980s, and according to the Smith & Wesson representative, neither gun is rated for +P ammunition. So, both of those guns only get standard pressure .38 Special ammo fired through them.
@@Kaelland That is true, but +P wouldn't do anything to them. If you have ever fired standard pressure foreign ammo, you were probably at a higher pressure than American .38+P pressure as +P is max 20,000 PSI and 'standard pressure' in Europe is 21,700 PSI.
No thanks. They keep my flow going and help me to remember the points I want to make. Your way would have me speaking really weird and more monotone. People are already at their wits end with the level of Jeff Goldblum monotones per video.
XTP is a hunting bullet and not even good at that, if they expand at all its not much and they plug up like crazy, terrible choice for anything but targets .
your conclusion is backward. you got more penetrations and explanation and cavity with 38special. Seems like you already made up your mind before the test
That's one of the dumbest comments I have ever read. What conclusion? I mentioned some points about both of them and never drew any specific conclusions, so how can a conclusion be backwards when I never concluded on anything definitively? 9mm in plain gel is 15.5" penetration .501" bullet diameter from expansion and .38 Special 18" penetration and .434" expansion. With denim and MDF 9mm got 18" penetration and .494" expansion as where the .38 Special got 23" penetration and (no) .357" expansion. So the 9mm got adequate penetration and some expansion every time, the .38 Special got over-penetration half the time and under expansion both times, and I quickly concluded that the 9mm was doing a little bit better. I 100% stated the real facts, and 12" minimum and no more than 18" maximum penetration is the standard, .38 Special did not meet that standard. Then 1.5 times expansion is the standard, and 9mm came closer in both shots to 1.5 times expansion. I will double, triple, and quadruple down on my conclusion because it's the RIGHT unbiased conclusion.
Souldnt be a surprise 38 went further ! … idk why every thinks of 38 as small caliber and 9mm as the start of the bigger defense calibers … dosnt take a rocket scientist just looks up the amount of gun powder in each , 38 has more and the both shoot the same size bullet
With typical off the shelf defensive ammo the 9mm is actually more powerful though. The .38 might have more case capacity but it operates at lower pressures with standard ammo. The .38 can safely be loaded hotter and performs far better with heavier bullets than the 9mm. The FBI load is a good example.
