400FT Run: Fiber Or CAT6 Cable? 

Gamechanger Cat6 Cable Review Video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZY48KUAZKhM.html The Altelix enclosure used in the video was no longer available on Amazon, here is a similar waterproof / weatherproof enclosure box amzn.to/3y3Rkh8

Lightning protection would make me choose fiber. That way even a direct strike on the AP will not have a path an electrical path to the house and the serving switch.

I would run conduit with fiber. I have a petrochemical background and PLCs hate grounding problems and repairability is a must.

I understand the use of wire in this situation, however I would have at least ran 1" or 1 1/4" inch pvc conduit for future changes or additions.

Tom, my concern in these situations would be lightning. It is a requirement now in a lot of government environments anyway cabling of that nature be fibre due to lightning

I would have run fiber just due to the lightning/ground potential issue. Here in FL if it is outside it is fiber.

I had a similar situation at a nursery, they wanted a wireless access point that would have been at about 400' out. Where it was going was cabinet near the center of the property that had all the irrigation controls and some other equipment. Conduit was already in place. I convinced them to go fiber to that center point and just use a media converter, power was already there. A few months later, they decided to invest in some cameras and replace their irrigation controls with stuff that could be monitored online. I swapped out the media converter for a switch, installed a pole for a couple cameras, and they used a ditch witch to pull 1" pipe out to where the other cameras were going. I used a direct burial cable through those to the camera locations. Worked slick (though make sure you have plenty of pulling wax to get the cable through those pipes.) Yes, I could have fed the switch with C6, but fiber is just the better solution in my book.

Because of different earth potentials between buildings you should only use fibre optic cables between buildings.

I would have gone with Fiber to offset ground loops and lightning. In fact, I run fiber inside when connected to things like cable modems that are a potential lightning conduit into the building.

In Australia - when we run CatX cable underground we are required to install lightning protection/isolation at each end of the cable. When this is factored in, running fibre or site to site radios is usually the preferred option.

If you have an open trench…. Why not throw a utility conduit in the trench and run both? But, I was known for overkill. When “that time” came, customers were always happy with the money spent.

One plus for fiber is that you can get a fiber cable with 2,4,6,8 fibers in one fiber cable that has a Cat5 diameter.

First off, excellent channel. You got me hooked with the pfsense videos. My take would be to estimate the chance of future expansion in the warehouse and if the possibility is really low, run three Ethernet terminated to a small patch panel. That way you have a second for LACP and a spare. If the unlikely expansion happens you can stand up a LACP port-channel or if just one additional AP is needed you can add it and still have a spare. Keep in mind you have POE injectors as an option when deploying small amounts of AP. Wireless coverage in warehouses with pallet racking or stock that is solid or metal can be spotty and multiple AP could likely be needed if you experience unexpected coverage issues. If you know there will be future expansion, then fiber, run a 6 pair minimum (check pricing on higher density, it may be cheaper) so you have two connections for a future LACP and one spare. My preference would be OM3/OM4 multi-mode for 10g link support or single mode as prices are close enough to multi mode now and single mode supports faster speeds over a greater distance.

Another option, which I have worked with, is media converters and coax cable. This provides significantly greater distance than Ethernet cable and can provide PoE at the far end. The usable distance depends on the cable type. BTW, you mentioned a dock. Many years ago, I was working on some equipment at the end of a pier in Goderich Ontario, which is on Lake Huron. The equipment I was working on was for measuring water levels and there was a large hole in the pier beneath it. If you dropped anything, it was gone. It was also "fun" getting the car turned around in the limited space of the pier, with no barriers to prevent going over the edge. The network to that equipment was 110 baud ASCII over a current loop circuit.

I Love that box. I use it when I do apartments & storage facilities

Thanks for the video, great information. I was looking for that box everywhere but I couldn't find it.

I agree with the choice here. Although like others I do worry about Lightning, I've had it happen numerous times. It is never fun to have to replace equipment because of lightning.

Pretty damn cool. My inlaws neighbor is putting in a pool with a pool house. He wants to put wifi out there, it's a good 100+ feet from the house. I was pushing for fiber but this cable might better!!

As an EE that spends way too much time looking at networking and data solutions, Whenever we talk about a copper run from one building to another, lightning becomes a major worry of mine. While I wouldn't rule out copper entirely (especially since in this case we're talking about a single AP for now), I would want to know more about the destination and route. The three most important things that come to mind are: 1: what does the destination look like? Is it a structure that can handle or divert a lightning strike without passing it through the data lines? If we're in an out building built to code with existing power (especially power from the main building), chances are the risk assessment will say we're good to go. If we're just mounting on a pole in the middle of an otherwise bare field though, that's asking to kill equipment. 2: what is the proposed route. In this case we're talking direct burial with appropriate cable, but if we're doing overhead on poles/trees/structures, that lightning protection comes in again. 3: how are we going to arrest voltages above the protection rating of the interfaces on each side? we're going to want to tap into an ISB on both sides so we can arrest voltage spikes. besides that, if there's going to be a switch on the other end and there's already power, just go for fiber. If you choose the right fibers, you've also future proofed yourself when the client decides to go 10Gig/40gig trunks down the road.

I have learned to put at least 1 spare cable in the pipe/trench. The trench is the expensive part of the job, another cable is quite cheap in comparison. I will have fiber between my shop building, shed and house because I want the electrical isolation (currently 1 fiber patch cord going between the shed and house until the other building is built). They will be only a couple of hundred feet apart and *could* be copper but the risk isn't worth it, not much lightning but possible in the pacific north west. I will be putting in 24 strand SM but should only need 4 strands to each location initially. The termination is cheap compared to re-pulling or adding more later.

I've got a lifetime supply of single mode fiber drop cable; great for outdoor runs. More rugged cables can be bought from telecom folks who don't like short ends of rolls. You can buy

Looks like the key requirement was power, and that is a strong case for the cable in this situation. It greatly simplifies the installation while still allowing flexibility for future changes. Site-to-site makes little sense for the current use as it at least doubles the number of devices and adds significant complexity.

What do you do to mitigate lightning or other potential electrical surges? That's one major benefit to fiber.

The cable sounds cool. DEFINITELY would have installed a conduit for future service and/or upgrades.

I would have run the Cat6 in a duct as excavation is the major cost in any of these works. Duct costs nothing and means you can change out the cable (fiber or copper) should anything happen, also allows you to add more capacity later - just pull another cable through. Duct is also another barrier of physical protection, all it takes is a sharp stone placed against a cable during backfill to cause problems later on. The lifespan of any underground cable depends on if there are vehicles trafficking over the cable route (if any) and what weight of vehicle and frequency of movements. I wouldn't direct bury anything that isn't steel wire armoured as a general rule. Duct is always a good investment if you dig, ground workers tend to be pretty rough by nature and aren't always careful with what goes back in the trench. Having a duct means you can do the fine, more technical task of pulling and terminating the cable after the backhoes have gone, and pull through your cable of choice later. I'm sure the copper will be fine though for many few years, only you know the specific circumstances of the job (budget, customer expectations, how much you need to make it worth your while etc). I love fiber, but copper would still have been my choice as the run is only just outside the standard spec. It's hard to justify fiber over that distance, if it were 500ft or more it would be different then you'd have to go fibre. If the customer just wants it done as cheap and quickly as possible then your copper solution wins you this specific job over fiber any day, and sometimes that's the name of the game. Great channel, keep up the good work.

Cable looks really interesting, not sure if its shielded or not as ground loop would be a bit of a concern (outside what others have said for lighting). Whilst the signal lines of ethernet are galvanically isolated, the shield is usually tied to chassis ground, which is intern to earth via the electrics CPC. So if you had two sources of earth (ie earth rod at the dock as it sounds quite far from the house it would likely fail earth resistance requirements to share the earth in the house, and the mains earth in the house) there is almost certainly a potential difference between them (no two earths are the same potential) which means current flowing through your ethernet shielding... so maybe not ideal for a long external run just because of grounding and fault issues... That said you knew the place better than any of us so were probably aware of all of this and mitigated against it (best way is to only connect the shield at one end... you loose immunity to very high frequency as that really needs grounding at both ends, but stop the ground loop issue).

I think there's a time and a place for both; I would have gone the cable approach to in that situation. In a recent network upgrade in my house, I wanted to add network jacks in the bedrooms and add an access point upstairs. In terms of connectivity, I would have preferred to run a cable per endpoint back to my main switch. The challenge with that; there was no simple route I could take within the fabric of the house that would accommodate that many runs, and I didn't want to surface mount a large conduit to accommodate them all. I still had to install a conduit, but a was able to install a much smaller one with the solution I went with. I installed a switch in the top of an in-built cupboard as it was the most logical place for it to go, and as I had to run both power and connectivity in the same conduit; I went with a fibre run. The run is less than 10 meters, and I doubt crosstalk would have been a problem. I had the SFPs anyway, and with multimode pre-made cables being so cheap, I went that route. I ended up with a 10G link between the switches too...not that it's really necessary. Another install I've been working on recently is in my place of work; our main office is on the second floor of a shared building, and we have just taken on some office space on the ground floor. We needed to get connectivity between the floors, and we went fibre with that too. As the floor risers are accommodating all kinds of services (and who knows what) an 8 pair fibre cable is going to be installed.

Here in New England we have thunder storms all summer long and I find that any kind of copper cabling in the ground, whether in conduit or direct bury, seems to invite a lightning strike to fry the equipment on both ends. Not so bad if it's just a switch, but often it's a more expensive piece of equipment, not to mention service interruption and the labor to troubleshoot and replace. For this reason I've come to favor fiber for in-ground connections even if the distance is under 100 meters. As to the fragility part, 6-strand pre-terminated fiber assemblies aren't much more money than 2 strand,...I order more strands than I need so that there's one or two spare pairs and room for expansion.

Since +5 years we stopped pulling copper between buildings. Glass is cheap, copper is expensive. We’re on the equator on +90% humidity, hot salty beach climate. No issues whatsoever with fiber nor termination equipment. Media convertors are dirt cheap. Also no magnetic issues and no lightning issues. Fiber ftw

What other certifications would be good to have in your line of work?

You should try putting the ends on. I just learned how to terminate fiber and while there are a few subtle techniques, $2-300 in gear will get the job done. I decided to use the AFL FASTConnect system and Jonard tools. AFL has great support as a company - can’t say enough good things about them! Single mode and multimode are pretty much the same since you’re only strip down to the 125 um cladding. Not something that’s used frequently but has certainly changed my outlook on using fiber and helped with some backbone links as well as 25GbE workstations so I thought was a pretty cool novelty to learn. Takes some of the mystery out of the fiber magic.

MICHIGAN????? that's so cool dude! I'm in Michigan too...the weather has been really funky lately!

That job box is nice but crazy expensive..

With this being down by the water and running back to the house I am curious what you did for lightning protection.

Copper is good for most applications and far simpler to work with than fiber. That said, a factor for selecting fiber over copper is if your site is susceptible to lightning strikes. Power supplies can be protected easier than network device ports against surges and fiber is non-conductive. Although not relevant to the described project Single Mode Fiber also has longevity, as in you can use faster transceivers on either end over time since fiber is just needs to pass light (1gbit today, 10gbit tomorrow and 100gbit if needed). Wish I knew more about Passive Optical Networks though, that seems very interesting and could be practical, but it also looks like a shared bus design (may not scale well for high utilization networks (ie: streaming to all the TV's in large house at once).

@5:20, ohh boat dock, not a loading dock... Now the trenching makes sense.

Keeping it simple is best.

Idk if I would run this cable or not. My concern is like many other comments is the risk of lightning strikes. I know Fiber does not carry power, but putting in a power drop on the other side is easier now days. I would probably run fiber since it is "future proof" meaning that it will be able to carry new speeds as they are made available. But on the other hand, I would seriously consider site to site options as well. I could get over the fact that there are a couple of poles in the yard especially if it gets the internet down to my boat dock.

I've had poor experience with twisted pair run outside. Lost too much equipment with electrical issues. Had an entire run of CAT-5 vaporized once. The jacket looked fine, but most of the wire was turned to green powder.

Great answer. Especially for a lake house where I imagine there are a good bit of trees. Not the best place for PtP wireless. Fiber is a bad idea for home customers. They can't swap out parts for that on their own easily and if the wire goes bad they are going to hate you for the cost to replace it.

My internet provider don’t wanna hook me up to the internet because the distance is 200 meters. They keep saying it will lose signal. Is that true if they use fiber ?

What about media convertor? It is cheaper than using switch for fiber termination.

ive been using cat 8.1.... for long gigabit runs ... works fine for me

What's the availability of the game changer cable. Fiber costs are a little too prohibitive... for a lot of clients

If you need 100m or more you're probably having a second switch on the other side. So if you run fiber you can easily run 10Gbit and potentially upgrade to 25Gbit in the near future. Of course, only makes sense if you expect more than one device on the other end.

Why not a conduit for futur proofing the installation ? :)

Good job Tom. I see a lot of nay-sayers about lightning and burying coper cabling. but you can spend yourself into the poor house trying to cover every contingency. Should this be in a conduit? Should you have run fiber? Should you ground the cable at both ends? The answer is it depends. The reality is you had a problem to solve: Install an AP on a dock. The AP can run off PoE. There was trenching already being done. You have a single-cable solution that is rated for direct burial and the distance you needed it. No need to overcomplicate it. Can it get struck by lightning? Sure. Is that likely to damage the cable, AP, and the Switch / PoE Injector, Yes. At that point, you deal with it. You can spend a couple hundred dollars now and get a working solution that probably won't have issues, or you can spend several thousand for a solution that is way more complicated, has many more points of failure in that are in the elements (therefore likely less reliable), to fix a lightning strike or water ingress situation that has a relatively low probability of happening. Also for those saying it's bad to bury copper cabling because of water ingress (corrosion); yes that is always a possibility; However in Michigan stuff gets buried pretty deep (42 inches) to be below the frost line. At nearly 4 feet underground there isn't a lot of surface water; the soil is just always kind of damp. But direct burial cable is designed to handle that. Not to mention the phone, cable, and power companies have been burying cable underground for 100+ years with minimal issues. Corrosion happens, it's outdoor. And those job boxes are far more likely to get damaged and leak than the thick plastic around the direct burial cable that is 4' underground; simply because the boxes are exposed to people and the elements.

I need to try that cable out

i was shown the other day that cisco has in their 9000 series WAPs an outdoor WAP that has an SFP+ port although it would still need power.

I partially agree yet from switch to switch is always go with fibre as it’s usually cheaper in the end for starters and it’s future proof and also it’s more power efficient and every switch you use outside of your home as at least one SFP if not SFP+ Edit: waterbed the whole video.. yes def with cat 6a end of story

I would go with fiber, the armored stuff isn't that delicate when compared to cable and that's exactly what ISP's have been putting in the ground for years. ISP's use an armored OS1 cable within a tube to make it easy to replace is needed. Get a box where the spliced fiber is mounted in (in the Netherlands we have these 10cm by 10cm boxes with room for two fibers: www.kpnwebshop.com/mediadepot/4333313f86c2/536/200/ftu.jpg) and plug a patchcable in there. No need for a switch, a media converter with a PoE-injector will do just fine and you could fit that all in the box nicely. Also you'll beat that lightning-problem that has been mentioned before. Another plus of the fiber is future-proofing, it's easier to expand that to lets say 10GbE when you need a lot more devices attached to the network.

Years ago when I was back in school I was told you can’t go more than 100m with Ethernet it just won’t work. Not being deterred I put it to the test however I didn’t have any Ethernet cable and wasn’t allowed to buy any so I resorted to using a cheap roll of 8 core stranded alarm cable the alarm engineer left behind once. Laying 200m of this cable across the garden all the way to the shed suspended from various trees and bits of hedge it didn’t work 😂 but then I had a brain wave I doubled up the cores only using 2 cores for each tx and rx pair boom 100mb connection and it worked reliably for years till we got a new pup 🙄 now though it runs a partially buried cat 6 outdoor cable over about 160m and works at a full gb and has done for about the past 10 years! However getting into fiber now because I realised the risk of lightning and the fact that there is quite a power differential in the earthing between the 4 buildings I have cables too😬

Do you burry the cable without a pipe?

Hi, I need some help to resolve the NAT issue with the new pfsense 2.5.1. I have two WANs and both have done with some port forwards but the rules are only working through default wan, at a time I can make only one wan as default gateway but it should work with both WAN same time. please help me out to resolve this.

love this channel, but a couple of things that where not mentioned, Fiber Vs Cable its what your budget is... BUT......Underground cable? Direct Bury wire is a bad idea. Spend the few extra bucks, Put it in conduit with some frost selves and a extra pull string!!! Trust me you will thank me when your landscaper weed-eats around the post! As for the "JOB Box" yes you can find some of them on amazon, But they are actually Called Enclosures and they come in different Materials and Ratings. NEMA-3R Protection against incidental contact with enclosed equipment · Protection from falling dirt, rain, sleet and/or snow (like your power meter) NEMA 4X enclosures are primarily intended for outdoor use and offer a superior level of protection from corrosion and extreme environments We use to use NEMA 4x for all of our industrial Automation if it was located outdoors or in a wet location. Side note I have seen the aftermath of a step down Transformers catch fire inside a quality FRP NEMA4x enclosure, It never spread outside of the Enclosure. I bring that up because I have ordered a few enclosures from amazon, and they where not the same quality. So if you need a enclosure or a "Job Box" your best place to get one is Automationdirect. com or factorymation.com. Base your Enclosure off of these guidelines---> www.drexan.com/pdfs/HD090818-20%20-%20NEMA%20Ratings%20-%20Rev0.pdf AND USE CONDUIT!!!

If I wanted to just run fiber from my router to my computer , would I need a poe?

I like the solution. If you have to add cameras, I’d suggest something like the flex switch and power it all over Poe. I’d worry about ground loops with it being a dock. GFI can be tricky when near water, and I’d hate for a secondary copper connection from your Ethernet cable potentially interfering with a trip on your additional power circuit.

The most expensive part of an underground cable installation is the hole and the labor. I'd have thrown a conduit in. 50mm - and that means we can repair the conduit and re-pull if things get damaged. With regards to fibre - pre-term fibre exists - and it can be shipped with an LV cable integrated into it. It's simps... You also don't have to worry about lightning.

The problem is not the 400ft run. The problem is with lightning. I have extensive with trying to run ethernet aerial or underground. I don't know what your weather is like up there, but here in the south lightning will eat it alive. I have tried shielded ethernet, installing ethernet surge protectors and still got hit by lightning, taking out what ever it was connected on either end. I would put pvc conduit in the trench and pull fiber. The conduit will future proof it. Just my experiences and thoughts. But to each his own.

Ruckus T750SE (Outdoor AP) has an SFP+ port.

The 100m limit on ethernet has nothing to do with the cable type, it's a hang over from the days when it was a shared media, 100m is the distance a signal will travel in the time it takes to transmit the preamble. If you exceed 100m you run the risk of collisions. No longer an issue now with switches as there is only one tx device on each link. Now the limiting factor is the cables performance, so better cable will go farther. As others have said though, lightning is more of a concern than length.

GC cable is a good solution depending on the scenario. Fiber is future proof if designed and installed properly. We use GC. Love the option. 99% of our networks are fiber backbone. It's proven to be better,

I really wish I had used fiber at my summer house between the 3 buildings, as there are a lot of problem with lightning strikes there, and I have a bunch of protection boxes and galvanic isolation equipment in both ends of each run now to mitigate it. Not a clean solution whatsoever. Would be a much cleaner setup with fiber instead. If you think a lightning strike would not conduct via the cable, I've already experienced it with devastating consequences. If the switch is too big, there are smaller media converters you can use.

First time there is a lightning storm you will see the error of your ways. Outdoor CAT 5 even buried deep is affected by nearby strikes. Yes fusion splicers are expensive but one can also do the multimode/epoxy/polishing puck method for distances up to 1800 feet or even mechanical connectors or just hire a fusion splicer for an hour. I doubt lightning strikes are eligible for warranty.

I'm late to the game, but... I used the Atelix with electronics inside to service 4 IP cameras. No 400 feet cable of any kind. Just a cheap UBNT wireless bridge.

what about cat 7 or cat 8.

I'd be leary of using a special cable like that these days, say it breaks and you need to repull a new one... and then you can't get any because its out of stock everywhere, that sucks. I get why you're doing it but they do make some industrial grade media converters for high temperature applications. lc os2 fiber with bidi modules is easy, you can get LC os2 cables from about anywhere

Man, I don't care much about the length. It's good, but if I were to bury, I'd bury fiber. I'm simply way too scared of lightning strikes... Copper unfortunately carries.

did you run POE on that run?

I would have just used cellular, assuming the area has service. That's the simplest.

Just out of curiosity, has this been a single cable run or a pair?

What kinds of speeds did you get at 400 feet?

I watched the whole video while making breakfast, and didn’t specifically hear what the “gamechanger” cable was. I’m guessing CAT6 with 2 Siamese power wires on the side?

Tom, don’t be afraid of fiber. Buy a Jetting V0 HD kit and a Fujikura 31S. Reasonable cheap but awesome stuff. Then you just run a 7/3,5 duct that every “monkey” can put down. Then you guys come and blow let’s say Hexatronic Stingray blow fiber. Both the fiber and duct is cheaper then ordinary copper cable (but the margin is better). Win-win

400 feet, is that even a question? Fiber of course! :D Sure you could span that with copper but why bother? To add to that I've noticed some companies will even sell pre-terminated runs if you know the distance you need it to span, it's sometimes cost effective enough to be worth while (plus you don't have to futz with terminating it yourself).

Fiber is immune to ground faults, shorts,etc. Otherwise, copper in a conduit is ok. Can do poe as well.

Do people ever request fiber runs in homes?

unrelated. seen the new 10 gbit flex switch form ubiquiti? 5 port multi gbit switch for 200 bucks!

Fibre always

job boxes are nice, we've quoted nema 4 pedestal cabinets for active equipment and fiber, they also had active cooling. The guys were not cheap

Why not run a tube/raceway when trenching? then you could replace the cat6 with fiber in future. Best of both worlds

Fiber between buildings/ground systems.

Look out at mikrotik FTC, it's a fiber to ethernet module that cost 39$ US! VERY CHEAP, and fiber is cheaper then ethernet cable..

Mikrotik GPeR (1 KM+)

129m for the rest of the world

First comment! Love this comparison. Real world decisions here, thanks for sharing and for the excellent content!

Fiber is much more durable than copper and immune to corrosion. Along with voltage difference issues, fiber all the way

I'm sorry but fiber in a pipe is what should be done. To isolate the dock electrically from the house

Fibre for that length.

For the algorithm

That type of box is not the best for running fiber, there are other proper deployment solutions.

fiber

why ANYONE would use direct burial is beyond me, if the trench is open use conduit. Why make future changes a pain in the ass?

First! Great videos Tom!

if you are on pc already on fiber optic internet ? Do not ethernet copper your pc . Get a card and fiber optic ethernet instead get a fiber optic hdmi . On copper network ? Equal lenght ethernet cable from modem to say tv and xbox is pretty . But xbox cloud on s90c ? It's something else entirely . I wish ethernet rj 45 was fiber optic . The image say uhd ? Say a thing take6 pixel by 6 pixel . You get noisy red noisy green noisy blue and the noise of transparency . Plus rgb combined noise to make color . I hope someone make a male rj45 to fiber optic source and another for display adaptor or whatever . Fiber optic is vastly underestimated . I wonder how good it would look on a avp vr

It comes down to use case. If client needs just an AP for mobile devices running a non bandwidth intensive app and possibly an IP camera in future. Since they are digging now twisted pair makes the most sense.

The limit is actually 90m for the fixed run , not 100m. The 100m should include patch cables. The game changer cable may work, and it will prob work fine, but its not in spec.

That fiber will pass 10GB not the copper... plan for the future folks

FIBRE

When you say site-to-site in US, in the UK we would point-to-point