40K's Mad Scientists: Fabius Bile VS Belisarius Cawl | Warhammer 40K Lore 

I wonder if cawl has ever been voted for to become domnice of the machnicas

in another words i despize him and primaris i don't accept them as cannon but what i can do about it

fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one second of we don't talk about cawl here Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions. We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous. They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person. Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert. Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint. If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.

I love Bile’s male pattern baldness…. Looks like an old gym teacher from the 90’s..

@@houseadams4841 the ultimate skullet

Warhammer 40K metaphysics are simply originated from the dualism between Materium & Immaterium, Emperor tried to balance the psychic and physical qualities of humanity but as Live! From Black library channel guy said: His works are so rushed and unnecessarily secretive even among the Imperium humanity allies that causes Emperor's projects in shambles The hubris of Emperor's pasts during Unification Wars, Great Crusade and Horus Heresy are ironically absolved by his successors regardless of the Imperial Cult or Chaos-oriented ones, they will be instrumental in repelling Tyrannids, mending the Dark Eldar to be less sadistic with new beacons, giving Necrons more 'humane' purposes to unified themselves, all while threatening Imperial Cult's status quo to enact The End Times, The King in Yellow also are opposed by those in Imperial Cult's bureaucracy and administrations which already rotting for 10.000 years and further after Age of Apostasy, Months of Shame, etc The End Times in Warhammer 40K will end with both bang and whimper, or at least as series of Implosions from the legacies of War in Heaven and Dark Age of Technological marvels, meanwhile Trazyn, Vulkan, Farsight and Cegorach are breakdancing and dabbing surrounding his magnificent historical collections to the dismay of soyfaced clone Fulgrim (with real lesser warp god soul of his own) are seething in confusion and laughter as all of them seeing all of Undivided Chaos, 99.99% of Imperium's worlds, all of Xenos factions and Tyrannids' Hivemind destroying each other in The End Times of Warhammer 40K

@@ohamatchhams New beacons? Explain. I wish to hear about this.

@@ohamatchhams There wont be an end times in 40k. Business needs to business.

yeah Cawl and Bile are like Human mirrors of the Necrons and Dark Eldar. when I saw some of Bile's creations, I immediately thought of the works of the Drukhari Homunculi and their fleshcraft abominations. and many Skiitari are almost as mindless as Necron Soldiers, and Cawl himself is almost entirely mechanical at this point, he even has a body plan shared with some Cryptek Lords.

​@@nicholai7300let's hope not. Although I don't mind another grand war that leads the Traitors to Terra again. They need to finish HH, The Scowering, and do some novels of The Dark Age of Tech.

Agreed, and that's a good way to put it. Cawl is a one man cabal with the amount secrets he keeps from his peers, his general long-term goal causes him to innovate and create and it seems generally like a good thing; Bile's long term goal has him travelling world to world flaying and torturing whatever life he can find... Even if his goal of creating a race to supercede humanity is ultimately meant to be for the greater good, all he has done so far is make perfect fuel for the chaos gods to feed on.

I thought guiliman gave him permission to do what he needs to

Bile is resourceful and that's what I love about him.

Tyranid world?

@@qwaeszrdxtfcgvbqwaeszrdxtf5733 I think he means a world being 'occupied' by Tyranids (like how a soldier would 'occupy' an enemy outpost on their way through hostile territory.)

Report the account above me. It's scam.

@@woohoogdo The question isn't 'could' he, the question is *WOULD* he? Even for Cawl that sounds a bit Much to ask. Wouldn't he had rather glassed the planet, then dug a hole in the remaining rock?

It's only arrogance if you can't back it up. If you can it's pride.

This. I love that cawl doesn’t praise the mechanicus to the point where he thinks new technology is heresy and believes most of the mechanicus are morons. The only thing I really dislike about the character, is his looks. I think he’s just one of the ugliest, stupid, looking character in all of 40k. Nothing about him looks cool at all.

@@Reformed322 only cool thing about his looks is the 5 extra arms holding the giant chain axe. I mean, go to 7:54 and tell me thats not badass

Well "retaining his humanity" is rather debatable.

Yes I think for Cawl always appreciated the human desire to achieve and he didn’t want to lose that piece… really just his internal drive to continue to be great. He wants to shape the future by creating. Rediscovering will not make him happy

I'm sure it would be called Something something "horrors beyond comprehension" 😂

Most beings would go mad in the foyer if not just by seing a poster for such an event.

And Arkhan Land in the corner

Knowing orks he would accidentally win first prize for making something work that shouldnt.

@@weshammer from the timeline where the horus heresy never happened

lol though he hates it when Lucious calls him bob especially over vox (lol tts)

The factory must grow...

And after a hour later Bellsarius comes back and says, "Your Machine had proven incable of handling my designs." Translation: it took me an hours to crash the game. it would of been shorter but I have better things to do.

Cawl would absolutely make the most insanely efficient, self-reliant factory imaginable in like a hour, maybe two if he is doing something else at the same time.

Cawl would solve Factorio in seconds as if it was one of those shitty fake banner ad games, then he'd release it as an STC that he "found"

He was from the time Innovation was still in gray area. Not to say mechanicus fully outlaw innovation, if one could point to something proven and prove the advancement came from that then it is okay😅 Also, undercover researches never stopped. Really high ranking magus wouldn't care about the rules all that much

My brother in christ, please go actually read the books for yourself before spouting nonsense. Fabius Bile is an atheist and probably the only marine left in existence that actually adheres to the imperial truth. He is certianly not "powered by chaos", and he doesn't struggle to make copies of imperfection, he can literally produce perfect clones of every Primarch. He just doesn't do it because he did it for Fulgrim and then changed his mind saying "the age of gods and monsters is over" before trading Fulgrim away to Trazyns collection.

On the topic of innovation, Cawl is so far ahead of the rest of his "peers" that it wouldn't be hard for him to reverse engineer xenos tech and build it so it looks nice and _Standard_ , then say it's an STC that he found in some far off cave on a dead planet. I think Cawl would argue that innovation is neccessary, not only for humanity but to keep himself occupied, of course humanity has completely twisted the original creed of the imperium, worshipping big E as a god when it's the opposite of what he wants, so in that regard Cawl would see innovation as an integral part to worshipping the Omnissiah even if the greater imperium sees it as heresy- because they're idiots, and I (Cawl) am a gigagenius chad scholar. Bile's goal is interesting and I admire that he rejects the ruinous powers completely, but he is an extremely twizted fella even without boons from the chaos gods. I think Cawl would beat him if they had to square up, they're both geniuses and physically nothing to scoff at, but neither are primarchs and Cawl is utterly chromed out with all his augments and dendrites. Like a comment from @Paradise2003 below this chain said "We see Bile's unrestricted peak. We dont know what Cawl's is."

@@SmokerX91 Lets not cap perfrect Fulgrim is not someting Bile can just repeat

Fair, maybe he can't repeat endless perfect Primarch clones, but seeing as he did an imperfect cloning of Horus followed by a perfect cloning of Fulgrim, it's fair to say he can reliably recreate Primarchs, even if they wouldn't go on a whole redemption arc like Fulgrim did. It does however piss me off that most lore youtuber just say whatever and the people in the comments talk even more nonsense without actually having any knowledge about the lore. Saying Fabius Bile is "powered by chaos" is ludicrous and saying that he's struggling to copy others is BS as well, as he managed to create a new lifeform out of Astartes geneseed, Eldar DNA and Human DNA that can naturally reproduce and kill a space marine 1v1 while the space marine is armed and they are naked.@@eliasmagus5086

Although, the Primaris are pretty impressive biological... things.

​@@Overanalyse_ThisWell, there is some Mechanicus influence on the Primaris. Each tendon of a Primaris Marine is encased in a steel coil.

Half of Modern medicine is feat of engineering tbh. There is the biology factor in it, but to maintain sterile systems and biomonitoring systems of today, we need extensive engineering. There's even a bachelor's degree thats associated with it. It's called biomedical engineering. On the flip side, we have biology entering engineering today, with biomimetic design taking the forefront to modifying and developing our current engineering systems. From compliant mechanisms in biomechanics to studying communication between ants in a colony to model swarm behavior for drones and studying deep sea bioluminescent creatures to further develop optical fibre tech, biology and engineering are getting together more than ever.

Dude made Alpha Primus, even Bile was impressed to the point where he recognized it as better than anything he has made.

I agree on this not because of what he said but because it's the GOAT himself..... "Mike Tyson Baby!"😝🤣

Biles future would be a sinking ship for the current humanity though also. Considering he would wipe every last one of them out

Bile himself believe that he has no place in the future with the new men.

why would you call him cawl's boyfriend...

Practically overheating by the end of that fight.

As Wes said, if the newest New Men are like her... Damm old humanity is I trouble!

IIRC all iterations of the new men were designed to be 100% capable of breeding with all forms of baseline humanity (not sure if abhumans as well) with all the children being born as new men. This is why there has been issues of entire populations of new men springing up on planets. So not really an issue of extermination so much as (sorta) forced and rapid evolution.

Bile has a chip on his shoulder, Cawl is in it for the love of the game

If you're giving an edge for clarity of vision, they're also tied there. Cawl gets the monologue at the end, but it echoes what Bile had already been saying throughout the book.

Which book has fabius going to cammoragh?

​@@martintodd9944 read his trilogy

@@Mondy667 I've got the ebook of the trilogy saved but am reading Felix and gortek at moment. I hoped it was the trilogy so thanks

@@Mondy667I’m on the 3rd book now myself, but it’s odd that Bile’s visit there is all in the past. Almost like there’s a side quest/book in between. It’s explained well enough, but it feels like there should be a novel there..

Did he have a whole team for the Primarchs? He had one for the spare marines which struck me as odd considering he created the Custodes first (before the Thunder Warriors) and they are superior to the space marines. But I always thought the Primarchs were the product of very few, with a great deal of personal input by the Emperor himself.

@@RichardStrong86 well actually in First Heretic Argel Thal is sent back in the past by the Chaos Gods to visit the laboratory of the Primarch project and he describes whole teams of scientist working on it and in Saturnine we learn that part of the Primarch DNA comes from a perpetual named Erda so he was not alone on those works

Yeah, that is a good way to put it.

its kinda hinted that alpha Primus is a mix of a handful of traitor primarchs, bile claims he “senses the presence of the Cyclops” after Primus almost kills him with his psychic powers while personality wise he acts quite a lot like a form a Perty

​@@whiteeye9584😂write a book or something

fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one second of we don't talk about cawl here Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions. We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous. They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person. Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert. Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint. If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.

A colony of ants, intelligence level wise, for how small they are, is insane. A colony of 10k year old super scientists would be fuckin nuts

@@fmlAllthetime The point I was trying to make was the intelligence of Fabius is spread out across multiple versions of himself, separate instances so to speak. With Cawl its basically all in one to the point where he has to occasionally delete parts of his memory to make room for new memories. I'd say memory does play a part in intelligence in this manner I think Cawl definitely has Fabius beat. I don't think Fabius has had to delete his own memory just to make room for more lol.

Wouldn't that mean Cawls retention is worse by definition? @@winterwolf1250 Idk how Fabius wouldn't have to do the same shit considering how old he is, but ain't no one ever accused 40 k of making actual sense.

It’s left up to interpretation why he did it. Reading the book I came to the conclusion that he was genuinely scared of what a united emperor’s children could become, worried that the new Fulgrim would be manipulated, and overall entrenched in his philosophy that it is better to create than fix what is broken

@@anexistanthuman2435 what could a united emperors children become.... PERFECT.

@@texasallstar6969 Not Perfect, nothing is ever good enough to be perfect. The emperor’s children weren’t perfect even at the height of the great crusade. Another theory I have is that the real Fulgrim would attempt to kill the fake Fulgrim, drawing too much attention to bile and overall just being a bad incident for everyone involved

@@anexistanthuman2435 lol the pre heresy emperors children were about as perfect a space marine legion as you could get xD

@@texasallstar6969 And then boom, gene seed blight. Internal complications. Characters like Eidolon and Lucius.

Oh shit, that *is* a good theory

Didnt cawl perfect the space marine genes to create even better soldiers? I thought chaos guys tried but couldnt do it

Bile probably also understands warpcraft to a far greater extent too.

@@nemdenemam9753 While the Primaris is a noticeable upgrade, they hardly come near perfected. Something both Bile and Cawl agreed upon. Bile has upgraded marines combat abilities since before Cawl was a student of Biology, but his work often comes with severe drawbacks, mutations or addictions. The real feat Cawl archived was the scale of Primaris production and the comprehensive upgrade/redesign of their gear and armoury. Again, Bile and Cawl agreed on this as well.

@@PoolNoodleGundam Fair

The worst part about this discussion is that people are acting as if what Belisarius Cawl has done is unprecedented in actual, real life human history. Belisarius Cawl, for me, is an interesting expy of Leonardo da Vinci (or the more generic Renessaince Man archetype) set in the 41st Millenium, with the time and resources to actualize his concepts . Dwelt in anatomical studies? Check Designed flying and war machines? Check Actually built a mechanically powered suit of armour? Check! Hell he even dwelt in Geo morphology when he designed the diversion of the Arno river (which Machiavelli worked on) Nothing that Cawl has is out of the ordinary for what "baseline" humans can achieve and since I have yet to see him paint as a minimum: The Last Triumph Aeldari Lady with Gyrinx Le Guilliman his capabilities are actually less of what "baseline" humans at their best can achieve. Accomplishments aren't what define a mary sue. A mary sue is defined by a lack of effort, a mary sue accomplishes what no one else can with minimal or no effort rendering other "cast members" irrelevant. Rey for example (the most egregious example of this) is a mary sue not because of what she does but because of how she got there. She beats everyone around her is better at everything than everyone else with zero training or experience. That's a mary sue. Cawl creates better space marines, better armor, and better weapons, all of this without any prior experience working on or with the space marine project. He even arguably did a better job than the Emperor who may as well be an actual god. On top of all this he is also skilled in engineering and biology, not only re-engineering the space marines but also their equipment. Single handedly reinvinting anti grav tech with zero outside help. Something that the mechanicus has been working on for millenia. Its not what he accomplishes but how he got there and the inplications of what that means. Cawl single handedly outdid every tech priest who ever lived and the Emperor himself with almost zero outside help. He rendered the mechanicus obsolete in much the same way Rey renders her cohorts obsolete. There is nothing they can do that she can't do better, there is nothing the mechanicus can do that Cawl can't do better. He is absolutely a mary sue but unfortunately a necessary one. GW set 40k up in such a way that the Imperium could only be saved by a mary sue. There was no way out of the literary corner they trapped themselves in except for this. So while ordinarily I hate mary sue plot devices this one I'm ok with, and at least he has a modicum of personality unlike most other mary sue characters (eg: Rey)

💯 B Cawl is the smartest one. Not to take away anything from Bile but Cawl is the superior scientist with knowledge and memories from multiple other very smart ppl

I have read books about bile and Cawl . They re different they do focus in 2 different xeno techs and do have a lot of similarities but Cawl has multiple minds of few of the smartest ppl of the Imperium

@@whiteeye9584 this took some time to read

fisrt of there is no die hard fans who said that cawl is importand in fact they said he is deus ex machina and retcon of 40k and shity one second of we don't talk about cawl here Here's what doesn't make sense: how many AdMech members currently exist in 40k? Hundreds of billions, trillions, more? Next, extrapolating from this, how many AdMech members have there been over the last 10k years? Probably quadrillions. We know that Cawl is hardly the first or only heretek and yet not one out of those countless people, all of them tinkering and augmenting themselves in a myriad of ways, have achieved even a tiny fraction of what Cawl has. Just making a better bolter or new mark of power armor would have already made him one of the greatest Magi in history and then he does so much more that it's beyond ridiculous. They've set him up to be such an anomaly that he's no less special than the Emperor. A once in a billion years type of person. Imagine if tomorrow DC released a super hero that was better, smarter, and more powerful than everyone else and was nust hand waived him away by saying "yeah he's been here the whole time and participated in all these super important events even though you've never seen him before" would you accept that or would you be calling that out as a mary sue author insert. Cawl isn't young or inexperienced, however he does things he reasonably should not be able to do given in universe constraints on the Tech Priests. If any Tech Priest could become just as skilled at different fields of study as him, then why didn't they. Cawl is a nearly messianic figure at this point, regardless of whether he's liked or not he is doing things that he should not be able to do. In doing so he is rendering the rest of the Mechanicus irrelevant, this is people's main complaint. If Cawl is objectively the best, smartest, most powerful Tech Priest who can do whatever he wants up to and including breaking previously stated in universe rules (taking control of Necron tech) and he can clone himself effectively allowing him to be everywhere at once, what's the point of the rest of the Mechanicus? He makes everyone else pointless that's the sign of a poorly thought out character in any setting.

@@whiteeye9584 not everyone is going to like him. 2 Ain't reading all that 3 there is a simple solution if you don't like something in the 40k books just don't read it. Read what you enjoy the most

Were*

He stuck with the new men for a couple thousand years before making a reiteration