44 40 vs 45 Colt in a Single Action Army: Which would you choose? 

I love the 45 colt. But if i lived in the 1870s -1890s 44-40 would be my choice just to go with my rifle.

Back in the day I’d have gone with the .44-40, for sure. The original .45 Colt wasn’t an option for lever guns back then because of its puny rim, but that issue has long since been rectified. The .45 Colt being a straight wall case, it’s less fussy to reload, and we’ve got good bullet selection, too. So, .45 Colt is just more practical in today’s world, for both wheel guns and lever guns.

You just answered my question I have asked many black powder folks for years. All of the 'experts' have told me the .45 Colt is clearly more powerful. Now I am confident that my choice of 44-40 does not make me a wimp. I don't know how this video hit my feed, but I'm now subscribed.

I was a young man back in the ‘50s with a paper route, still it took me 8 months to save up enough to buy Ol’ man Ronstadt’s Merwin & Hulbert Pocket Army for $55 (I had to help my Mom out with our rent which was $25 a month back then.) I thought it was the .44 S&W, but turned out to be the .44 WCF DA version. The Ronstadts would break open a box of Black Powder .44-40’s and sell the individual cartridges for 18 cents a piece, which was pretty expensive! I carried it in a Hand Tooled holster made in Nogales Mexico for many years, it went off like a bomb and made a huge cloud of rolling smoke! I wasn’t able to pair it up with a .44 WCF rifle, but had many adventures with it and a Winchester model of 1903 ,22 RF rifle. Later in the Marines I bought a 6 ½” Ruger Flat Top in .44 Magnum from a Marine in need of money and eventually paired it up with a Winchester Model 94 in .44 Magnum and finally had my matching Carbine and similarly chambered pistol. To my surprise the rifle was a bit of a disappointment and was replaced with a scoped Husqvarna rifle in .35 Whelen. When I go to sleep at night I still find myself reaching to touch the old familiar grip of the Merwin by my bedside and often wake up having relived an adventure with it and the old self loading rim fire in my dreams….

Great video and information about the comparison of both rounds.👍 As a kid of eight, in 1958, my great uncle began to teach me firearms. His pistol of choice was an 1884 Colt SAA in 45Colt. He loaded with black powder, as he said smokeless powder was just a passing phase.😉 We'd reload with an Ideal 310 tool, and cast the old Ideal 454190 255gr bullet. Lubed with a blend of beeswax and mutton tallow. Sized also with a 310 die. And we loaded 40gr of DuPont ff powder. Imagine an eight year old shooting that.😲 Well, 65 years later, I'm still shooting that load now and then in my 45s. Reckon if it ain't broke don't fix it.

What I particularly appreciate about Doc Kesner is that he does not simply reproduce the "shooting" in sober evaluations, but also somehow makes it imaginable through his comments.

This is a very apples to apples comparison, well done sir! Both 5.5” barrels, both 40 grains, both 2F powder. Much more even comparison than more RU-vid videos.

I happened to have chosen neither. 38-40 is what my Marlin 94, Winchester '73 & 92, and Colt Lightning & 4-3/4" SAA are all chambered in. (all of them are over 100 years old, and are all great shooters) 🙂👍

Great video, Doc. I love the 45 Colt cartridge but if it was 1880 and I had the money for both a pistol and a Winchester I suppose I would lean towards the 44/40

My mother still has her grandmother's 44-40 Colt from when she worked with a Wild West Show in the '20s. Solid lockup clean hand gun. To get a matching carbine would be very fun. That old revolver sparked a fondness for single action in me as a kid that is still alive and well at 61 years old.

The Colt single-action Army revolver was known as the "Big Iron" made famous by Marty Robins' song, "Big Iron."

An interesting discussion. Thanks. I will add that I had a talk once, many years ago, with my late father about the 45 Colt, 44-40 and 38-40 cartridges. My late father who was born in 1924 in south Texas knew men who fought during the Mexican revolution, 1900-1910, and the subsequent Cristero War from 1910 until 1920. Those men informed him of their preference for the "Carabina Treinta" or winchester 30-30 (rather than the 30-40 Krag) and the 38-40 Colt revolver. Not commonly known is that the 38-40 has a 40 caliber rather than a 36 caliber bullet like other 38 cartridges yet was loaded with 40 grains of black powder originally. It bears mention, at this point, that 44 caliber cartridges, even today, are actually 43 caliber while 45 calibers are true to that description. The 40 caliber bullet loaded into 38-40 cartridges at the turn of the 20th century generally were between 165 and 180 grain bullets. Thus, with only 165 grains of lead pushed by the same 40 grains of powder as the other two loads, the 38-40 demonstrated superior velocity with a similar diameter bullet and velocity means explosive power. On the other hand, the famous gun writer of the 60s, 70s and 80s, Skeeter Skelton, wrote often of Colt SAA revolvers and their heritage cartridges including these three discussed. He wrote, as I recall, that these three cartridges all bear the same base diameter and dimensions. Thus, one could fire the other two cartridges inside the chambers of a 45 Colt revolver. He remarked, again as I recall, about firing a 38-40 in a 45 Colt would split the case and send the bullet "bouncing" down the barrel with little accuracy but with a warning loud report. Thus, there was yet another advantage to having the 45 compared to the others in a time and place of limited ammunition supply.

Finally! I've red a bunch of comments and not a single one of you used that none existent 45 Long Colt moniker! I really appreciate that. Knowledge is power. Keep it up.

Thanks for the video Todd. Very interesting. I think back in the day I would have went with the 44/40. Definitely advantageous to have 1 cartridge for both firearms.

The rim of the original .45 Colt was far too small to work in the Winchester. So if you wanted to use one kind of ammo in both weapons, the 44-40 was the only option. It was called the "Frontier Model" The .45 was the "Peacemaker."

Great discussion regarding history and fair and honest evaluation of the two rounds. especially like BP loading

Velocities: .44 WCF seems fairly consistent with the black powder load. One notes all the chambers of a revolver have a higher or lower average than others. Usually within a range that shows which is the 'fastest'. The .45 Colt was also respectably consistent. I used to shoot 'Cowboy' at that time I had a .44 WCF (made by Jager, now defunct) and a Rossi reproduction of a Winchester 92 (they don't make .44 WCF rifles anymore to my knowledge). Simplified the ammo supply problem. Now I have a 'Cimmaron" (made by Uberti) version of a Model P in .45 Colt. None get much use anymore. I think I prefer the .45 Colt in honor of Gene Autry, Roy Rogers and William - Hopalong Cassidy - Boyd. Obviously a matter of preference. Good solid video. I liked it.

In 1880 44-40 (44WCF). Today 45 Colt because I am a reloader. The 45 Colt is a straight wall case and easy to reload.

Thanks for the clarity. I lived in Montana as a child and the mountains are in my blood; the Big Sky has always called me.

Can understand how gunfighers in the old West could easily miss , the recoil was hugh. Great video ,thanks

Great Video, Finally a good comparison between 44 WCF and 45 Colt, best video I've seen on the subject.

Got to say .45 Colt been a favorite for a lot of years. Mostly used a mild smokeless load in my 1st model Dakota it might not have quite as much thump as the 40 grain BP load. In my unofficial survey so far no one wants to get hit with a 750 fps 250 grain lead bullet at all😅

Awesome video! So basically the moral of the story is, don't play catch with either round.

Sir, I am happy for a chance to subscribe. Your stuff is educational, very much so. At 76, I thought I knew my single action revolvers, but you showed me I do not. Particularly, I knew nothing of what is meant by the "black powder frame." Although I have several Ruger single actions for hunting, this video convinces me to get a Uberti clone and use it exclusively with black powder. Thank you.

Todd this is a great video. As much reading as I have done, it seems the .45 Colt in a 7.5" barrel had a velocity of 1000fps. Elmer Kieth wrote about a cowboy in Idaho who pulled his colt .45 and shot a Grizzly in the face at about 30 yds. It was a one shot kill with a lead bullet. It still is quite the handgun and cartridge. Love your costume by the way.

My First Generation (1884 built) 44-40 came to me in pretty sad shape - broken hammer notches, no ejector housing, 98% of the nickel finish gone. It was a gift, so getting the rather expensive replacement parts for it wasn't too painful. Fortunately, it wasn't shot much and the cylinder, bore and frame are in very good condition. I've restored it mechanically, and it shoots very well with a load of 36 grs. of Pyrodex P and a 200 grain bullet. 44-40 is a complete pain to handload - the cases collapse at the slightest hint of misalignment with the dies. That aspect alone would probably make me chose the 45 over it.

I loved your comparison video, thanks for that. The results are what I expected. I've owned a Uberti 1873 deluxe rifle in 44WCF with a thirty inch barrel for decades now. It's fitted with a marbles long range tang sight adjustable for windage & elevation. The accuracy is outstanding which makes it a joy to shoot. I also have a Uberti black powder frame 1873 colt replica with a 7.5" barrel, in the same caliber, it's also very accurate. They make a great combination. Colt & Winchester made them first & you can't argue with their collectible value but Uberti makes some very fine clones.

I will stick with .45 , it is a proven killer and after shooting everything under the sun , the bigger bullet usually does more damage. Anyway my lever action Henry carbine is 45 long colt also so I'm good on both good points. Good video and information.

The first Colt SAA's were chambered in .44 American and tested by US Army Ordinance in that caliber. It was the same chambering used in the S&W American revolver previously purchased by them. The Colt out performed all competitors but Army Ordinance requested chambering in .45 to match the bore of the Springfield Rifle. That was the birth of the .45 Colt Cartridge.

You don't realise how lucky you are in America ,here in the UK we lost our pistols. I was a Smith advocate having a mod 14 ,19 and 29 but one of my favourites was my friends Webly in 0.455 ,superb accuracy but no idea of the ft/lb .Great video

Watching carefully, the .45 Colt had a slightly greater recoil arc. Thanks much for the comparison!

Being a traditionalist I would of course chose 44/40. That way it works in rifle and revolver just like it did in the old west.

The straight case 45 colt is easier to resize than the tapered case of the 44-40 for reloading . But the tapered 44-40 case chambers smoother in a rifle than the 45 colt . The rim design of the cases is different and sometimes the 45 colt doesn't extract as well in the rifle .

Of the two calibers, the only one I’ve fired was the .45 Colt - a black powder load from an 1880s manufacture 7 1/2 inch SAA. No idea how it chronographed ,but it certainly felt powerful - to me somewhere between a .357 and .41 mag. And not helped by the blackstrap sticking out about an eighth of an inch because the wood grips were so worn and shrunken. My dad has an old no- name Spanish copy of a S&W top break double action in 44-40. It doesn’t work as the main spring is likely broken, but the latch mechanism seems solid suggesting that the S&W versions would have been sufficiently strong enough to handle 44-40. I couldn’t say how much the gun was shot. It had a fair amount of wear to its nickel finish as it was owned and purportedly carried by one of his uncle’ father, who early one actually worked punching cattle. Anyway, I’m guessing it was shot at least enough to break the main spring. My dad’s uncle gave it to him when he was five or six. It wasn’t operable then. Dont know if it had even worked when his uncle was young. As for what I’d carry if I’d been around back then? I wouldn’t be surprised if I owned at least one of each depending on what I was doing - just because I like firearms.

Back when I was shooting cowboy action (full loads not mouse farts) I found that the 44-40 was much cleaner, especially in the Win 73's. The bottle neck sealed much better than the straight walled 45 Colt.

Thanks for the informative and entertaining video. I am a fan of the .45 Long Colt and I have always wondered about the 44-40. Now I know. ≈

Thanks for the nice video. I have a 1st Gen Colt SAA in 32-20, 5 1/2”. It was my grandfathers who was a cowboy out in Colorado at that time. My father was also born in Colorado and they eventually moved to Michigan where I was born and still live, 77 years later. I sent a request to Colt and paid for the history letter. I understand the cut off for black to smokeless powder was in the 117,000 range. My Colt is in the 122,000 range, made in 1901. It is in beautiful condition, missing some blue and case hardening finish, no rust, all original. I still shoot it occasionally with cowboy loads and light reloads.

I love to read Western novels and learning about the different weapons of the period is a fun thing to do.

"It'd be close. I'd hate to have to live on the difference." - John Wayne's character Sheriff John T. Chance from the movie Rio Bravo

Thanks Doc.I really enjoy these .

I would love to see a chronographed head-to-head-to-head comparison in cartridges loaded with a common smokeless, actual BP, and a BP substitute like Pyrodex.

Good info. I'm having a hard time picking between the 2 right now. Good to see that either one is just fine in this demo.

Another interesting 🤔 and educational 😃😃 video!! Thanks Todd.

I have been facinated with the Old West since childhood! So glad I found these videos, Thanks for the history.💕🤠

.44-40, absolutely! You could get a rifle chambered in that caliber to go with your revolver. Just made sense back then to standardize on one caliber.

It should be considered that the .45 Colt SA the Army adopted had a 7” barrel for the cavalry. That would be more “umph” than the 5” versions cow pokes and gunslingers preferred.

Great video Sir. I myself would have to go with the 44wcf for my rifle and revolver, since Winchester didn’t produce a lever gun chambered for 45 Colt until 1985. But I do have a mid 90’s Model 94ae trapper chambered in 45 Colt which I do intend on doing a video here very soon. I have two original model 73’s chambered in 44wcf and I have a Cimarron MP523 in 44wcf as well. I really love the 44wcf cartridge.

Great video! Another difference in the BP frame, is sight picture. The BP frame has a 'pinched' rear sight, and a thin blade front sight. At least the diffeence is there in my Uberti replicas. More precise aiming IMHO with the BP fame. I wouldn't want to be hit with either load. Thank you so much for the comaprison testing!

Great video, thank you. As far as the muzzleloader aspect with crossover ammo. In the military sector it was called an officers musket. The average officer and often noncommissioned officers would be issued a handgun that was smaller caliber then the standard issue musket. They would then go to a government certified smith and have a musket made to match the handgun.

Another great video. Love your content.👍🏻

I've questioned this aspect for close to fifty years, thanks for closing it up. I never had a chronograph handy to try it myself.

I have to admit I lean towards the .45 colt. A hundred years ago I would likely have chosen the .44-40. Ammo would have been easier to come by. Wider variety of rifles and pistols chambered in it. But in the current day the bigger bullet of the .45 colt is the tipping factor. Both Calibers are available, so wanting a rile and pistol in the same caliber is easy enough to accomplish. While the .45 colt may be 80 to 100 fps slower that heavier bullet makes up for it and then some. The last fact to consider is carrying a rifle in .45-70 and a pistol in .44 russian. No they are not the same ammo, but the rile would give you a considerable edge. And I would be interested in seeing how the .44 russian stacks up against the .44-40.

If you are shooting Cowboy Action with black powder, the .44-40 tapered case seems to seal better so has less fouling in the cylinder. If you are shooting smokeless powder, the .45 Colt is much easier to reload because you can use carbide dies which do not require lube on the cases. I shoot smokeless .45 Colt loads in my Peacemakers and in my 1892 rifle. BTW, 12 gauge paper cartridges loaded with black powder are fun to shoot!

A very interesting and fun video with good info and I Thank you Kindly! Lovely pistols they are! You have a great channel! Many Blessings and Good Shootin! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania

I've been told that the 45 Colt brass didn't have a well machined rim. It was more of a wrinkle at the base.

I see you still have your incredible teaching abilities. I used to own a 44-40 Marlin rifle. It was the Sweetest shooting rifle I've ever fired. It even sounded great. So yes I would go with the 44-40 Rifle and revolver. I dearly miss the program. The time we spent there was some of the most Fulfilling time in my life. I pray you and yours are doing well! Best Wishes! M.H.

Both of those are good stoppers. I grew up using Cooper’s Short Form (so named because it was a simplification of Hatcher’s formula for stopping power). He used bullet weight times velocity (not squared) times bore area in square inches, then knocked off the extra zeroes. 20 was “passing.” All due respect to Roy Weatherby, but velocity isn’t everything, and FPE isn’t the whole story. Great comparison!👍

Good video, I guess it turns out as Paul Harrell might say, the difference isn't enough of a difference to make a difference. I guess it would come down to personal preference and or availability of the other.

Very well done and informative video. Thanks for making it.

Thank you for the awesome video. I enjoy watching your channel. You definitely need to make more hunting videos with the firearms you use on your channel. It is nice to see antique firearms used or clones. Keep up the good work. Learn a lot watching your channel.

acquired a ruger new vaquroe .45 colt stainless steel with the full leather rig and 20 rounds of ammo for 500.00 . It made my day

Good comparison of equally good weapons. I have shot both and prefer a cartridge over having to reload

I liked the idea of having rifles and pistols in matching calibers so much that all my Winchesters (9422, 9422mag, Trapper 94 carbines in .357, .44 mag & 45 Colt) have matching caliber Ruger single action revolvers (Single Six, Blackhawk & Super Blackhawk) to go with them. Of course it helps when your cousin is an authorized Winchester and Ruger dealer who will get you great deals on on them.

Great audio! Each time I watch this I am impressed by the audio and your voice. Thanks...

I have both, and the 44-40 is my go-to revolver. Both are Uberti models, and both have held up to many years and roubds.

Great video, sir...I own lots of firearms, but now I guess I'll have to add a couple of those beauties. Thank you for covering this issue!

I'm a huge 45 Colt fan. Carried a S&W 25-5 for a number of years when I was LE. I cowboy shoot with the 45, both pistols and rifle. My favorite caliber along with the 22.

I had a S&W break top in 44-40, with a henry rifle in 44-40. The break top just made my day..top show Doc

Great video Doc For me the 44-40 would be the choice Good luck with your new adventure in AZ

44-40 all the way is my choice I feel it's all about being first being on target, if I haven't been misled the 44-40 can also be used in the rifle it makes good sense to me one pistol, one long rifle, one round ,I may be wrong but it sure feels.good in the soul thinking that way! This was an awesome learning video thank you!

What a fun video! Great information too. Not surprised at the outcome though.

I had a Ruger Blackhawk and a Henry repeating rifle ... both in 357Magnum , shooting both in 38Special were nice to fire !

it would be intresting to see a second video to this not only showing the latter 1880's loading of a 217gr bullet in the 44-40 but also the lighter 45 colt loadings that were offered up, as i understand at one point there was anywhere from 255gr with 40gr of powder down to 230gr with 30gr of powder, and perhaps to see what one would get out of loading 3f powder in them as people could of back then, i personally think at that time the 44-40 would of been the way to go especially if you could of gotten a mix of ammunition loaded for you by a gun smith, giving you loads that worked best for both but also having the ability to use either round in pistol or rifle. now days though i think the 45 colt is the way to go evan loading black powder simply because of the wide arrange of bullet molds and bullets still made for 45 pistol caliber

To throw my 2cents in....... I personally will stick with my uberti clone of the 73 44wcf carbine and the uberti colt clone of the peace maker chambered in 44wcf. One ammo works great for up close and personal out to (as of for now) 360-400yrds. Both are shooting 217 gr soft leas bullet being pushed with 35gr homemade powder and homemade H42 primers. Judging from never having a deer run more than 100yrd from where hit at 300 yards tells me I'm close to being right on spot.

Nice comparison with historical cartridges and firearms. I love the .45 Colt, however after I complete my move to Montana from Nevada, I may need to look into acquiring a .44-40 caliber revolver. Thanks sir,

Great info!

I read the real difference was the Colt's cartridge having a thin rim in its original form. Cartridges were very new. Colt did not use the solid head we are used to today. The 45 Colt copper case could not take the harsh extraction of the lever actions like the Winchester. That is why a lever gun round worked well in a Colt pistol, while Colt's original offering did not suit the lever guns of the time. The difference between an 1873 cartridge and the 1877 Winchester round show how fast things were developing at the time.

Excellent presentation.

According to COTW, the 44-40 was offered for a time in a high velocity round for Winchester rifles but apparently caused some problems in some weaker firearms. Also, there were 3 different .45 caliber handgun rounds, the .45 Colt, aka the Long Colt, the .45 S&W Schofield and one named the .45 Colt Government, that was "supposed" to work in both the Colt and S&W revolvers, which wasn't exactly perfect, but worked, sometimes, again according to COTW.

Very educational! Appreciate the video.

Very good video, buddy! You're a natural!

If nothing else, the 45 Colt is much more available commercially than the 44-40. Since I have a Winchester 1892 chambered in 44-40 I would prefer the 44-40, especially if I had a pistol and rifle both chambered in the same cartridge.

I was reading many years ago that the 45 Colt was normally loaded with 35 grains of black powder. It didn't say whether it was FF or FFF.

That was great information. Thanks

Depends. In 1877, I may have chosen the .44-40 to go along with my underpowered .44-40 chambered rifle. There really weren't any powerful rifle cartridges available in repeating rifles at that time. But after repeating rifles for more powerful RIFLE cartridges were available, then the .45 Colt would have been my choice. I'd rather have 2 different cartridges, both better for their intended purpose than two guns chambered for a single cartridge that wasn't the best choice for either. By 1898, no question. I would have had a .45 Colt revolver, probably a DA Colt New Service, and a powerful repeating rifle. A Model 1895 in .30-40 would be a great choice. The concept of having a rifle and handgun chambered for the same cartridge today is as obsolete as buggy whips. I prefer the phrase "Always bring a rifle"

Just found your channel, very interesting stuff. After looking at some of your other videos I subscribed. As a. Side note I think it's interesting to look at the older 44.40 and 38.40 loads and see how close they come to the (new) 40S&W loads ! Everything old is new again as they say !! Looking forward to seeing the next installment.

Between the two I chose the .45. But for combo guns I chose the Colt saa in 32-20 and a 1873 Winchester in 32-20 . Keeping the cowboy tradition I matched up my 1911 with a Marlin Camp Carbine. Both use 1911 mags. Happy shooting.

I think if you check you will find that the 45 Colt was originally presented to the Army with 250 grain bullet and 50 grains of Standard Powder. The army asked Colt to reduce the Powder to 40 grains and that became the standard military load

Since folks back then often lived a ways from towns and cities having the same cartridges for both handgun and rifle allowed them to carry a bunch of ammo on their person as witnessed by some of the photos of folks wearing 3.5" - 4" cartridge belts worn above their gun belts. El Paso Saddlery currently manufactures such belts.

Great video, very informative. Lucky for us, we have options in the modern world. For me, it's a price point issue. .44-40 is not as inexpensive as it was years ago so .45 it is.

I personally like the 44WCF, esp. for shooting black powder. While that very slightly bottle-necked case never made any difference for me with reloading, it seems to seal quite a bit better than the thick walled 45 colt. Esp. with reduced loads (sacrificing some case volume for felt & lube when I cannot get or cast proper BP bullets). At least that is my personal experience. When you have a modern made gun made for .429 bullets, they can be had plenty and relatively cheaply. But 45 colt would not be a bad choice, either. :-)

Great video. Learned a lot.

Today, I use the 45 LC and +P loads in both my Ruger handguns and 1894 lever, but also love the modern 44mag/special in handguns and lever and the 38/357 in both. If I lived back then, I may have chosen the 44-40 for the same reasons, and especially, if on the trail and back country with no resupply other than my handload tools.

When I was looking at buying a few SAA clones I read some of the differences between the two frames and descriptions of them. They were called the Old Model (OM) and the Pre War. The old models had the screw to release the cylinder, the round ejector and also a thinner front sight blade. Don't know if that's the same for every mfgs. gun. I've ended up with all mine being the Pre War design so I never did any comparisons of them. Those are some nice guns you have and a great video presentation on them.

My first dedicated firearms book ! Was a 196? 7 ? Shooters Bible ! It’s here somewhere! But in the worst condition now !of any I have ! Was pristine when given to me in 73’

Nicely done comparison! From my experience, when used in a rifle or carbine, the .44 WCF really shines! I’ve been shooting and loading for both .44 Winchester and .45 Colt since the late ‘60s. Although I really like both of them, having fired thousands of rounds of them, I’ve found the .44 to be more accurate in both pistol and rifle, especially at ranges of 100 and 200 yards. I’m more of a rifle guy anyway, so today I’m shooting more .44 WCF, than any of the other cartridges I shoot.

Great video. I have a Ruger .45 Colt Sheriffs model , and a Italian copy in .45 Colt ! I love the cartridge 🦅🇺🇸

Definitely agree that the extra 10 ft lbs from the .45LC is not enough to make up for the convenience of having the same cartridges for rifle and handgun.

Enjoyed the video. I find the history very interesting. Personally, while I have shot black powder in revolvers, I like most load smokeless when roaming the boonies- or most other places. My SA is a Ruger Bisley (sacrilege some might say, but it has served me well) I enjoy the nostalgia of the old, but the function of the newer. The .45 Colt wins it for me today. I have no use for many of the magnums and have no need for abusing myself. Plus the straighter walls make reloading a bit easier. That said, both of those are undeniably great cartridges.

Excellent video and information, I own three SAA colts and love shooting them.