The FBI switched from a .40 S&W sidearm to one chambered for the 9mm. They claim modern 9mm bullet technology makes it as "good as a .45." I call BS on that.
9mm has made big improvements but not that big. .40's biggest fail now is does not work in compacts so well. .45acp can manage in a compact okay. The market these days is all about compact CC Guns.
I love the .45 acp. It’s probably my favorite pistol cartridge. You always hear “the 9mm has experienced so much advancements over the last few decades and is better than .45 acp now.” They forget that the .45 acp has undergone the same advancements.
Maybe…..maybe the “new tech” 9mm ammo (if it performs perfectly can be “just as good” as fmj.45 But the .45 is a big ol bullet to begin with, if you’re HP doesn’t perform perfectly….you’re still punching a bigger hole. 9mm has capacity….that’s about it in my eyes
These people know the 45 has all the same advancements and benefits the 9mm has......the people who think the 9mm is greater than God never admit that fact because then they would have to eat shit and admit to being wrong.
40s&w expanders to be the same diameter or larger than most commercial 45acp ammo, AND 40s&w can be had in a smaller more concealable package without giving up a bunch of capacity like you would lose with 46acp.
45 is my favorite caliber and I love 1911 style pistols, but I’m sorry, the 45 tech has not kept up with the 9. It just hasn’t. There isn’t any brand of 45 out there that matches up, at least that I have found. Been shooting over 50 years.
@@thatsmytwocents4372 what "tech?" They both can use the same brass, bullet, power, etc. The only difference would be the amount of power, and the overall size of the JHP bullet. You're just regurgitating talking points with using any critical thinking.
In the 70s and 80s, the Army trained women on the 1911, 45 ACP. They did not seem to have any problems. Now today we have grown men who complain about the recoil. They sure don't make them like they used to.
@timothyprice9064 go fire 8 shots as quick as you can at a target, on target and see which one is quicker. 9mm is way easier to fire quickly and get back on target. That's just plain science. .45 is not better of a cartridge and that's why nobody who shoots people for their job uses it. There have been many tests that prove accuracy, capacity, and quicker follow up shots are more important than a bigger bullet. Why do you think most people use a 556 round instead of 300 Winchester magnum? Control and capacity is far more important than have a big bullet.
@@herpman4 You have never been around the military, have you? My question was, is it enough of a difference to make a difference? Ok, I stole that from Paul Harrel. Yes, 9mm bullets have gotten better, But then again so have 45acp. Are you telling me the military and special ops job is not to shoot people? I'm sorry if my statement upset you in any way, but it still remains the same.
@@timothyprice9064 the only reason special forces would use 45 acp is it is already subsonic. Yes suppressed it would be a good caliber to use, but it's not used because it is a more effective round than 9mm. They use 5.7x28 as well and I actually really love that round. People like to say it's too weak, but that is nonsense
I had this exact conversation with my department when we switched from 45acp to 9mm. They were saying bullet technology. I said bullet technology is across the board, the 9mm wasn’t the only cartridge that benefited from the binding technology. Thanks for the video.
@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb I argued the same thing with my agency when they decided to switch from the 125 gr Gold Dot .357 Sig to the 135 gr 9mm Hornady Critical Duty. Since the switch, our Highway Patrol has seen multiple cases of that 9mm failing to put folks down, one even went through a windshield, hit the perp in the head, bounced off and landed on the center console....he had a headache, but not much else. I argued that the same technology that 'improved' the 9mm exists across the board. How it can it be logically argued that a 950-1000 fps round with a tiny hollowpoint mouth is superior to a 125 gr .357 Sig (essentially another 9mm) running 1400 fps with a massive hollowpoint? It is frankly irrational. I suspect that FBI 'approved' 9mm is really designed to make it easier to shoot, therefore easier for smaller officers to qualify with. Building rounds tailored to a set of preconceived notions or protocols, then saying all other rounds don't matter anymore, is more of a political decision, it's not based on reality.
I carried issued P220 .45’s for the majority of my LE career, and they served me very well. The last issued load we used in those pistols before my agency switched to 9mm Glock’s was the RA45T Winchester Ranger T Series 230 Grain JHP. It performed exceptionally well in the handful of shootings that we used it in. Yes, capacity was low at 8+1 rounds, but it proved time and again to be adequate. None of our shootings ever required more than those 9 rounds, and all of the bad guys involved were neutralized. Today, being retired, I have followed the trends toward the 9mm for my daily carry based primarily on magazine capacity and ammunition costs. I hold no illusions about the 9mm being the ballistic equal of the .45 ACP. It isn’t. It has come a long way from what it was in terms of performance years ago, but the .45 is still the better hammer when comparing modern premium bullets to modern premium bullets. I worked enough shootings as an investigator to know that both cartridges are very effective. I just believe that the .45 has advantages that make it the better choice under certain circumstances. As such, while I do carry a 9mm pistol most of the time, it is a P220 .45 loaded with RA45T that sits on my night stand. From room distance, I just have more confidence in that gun/ammo combination to end a confrontation faster than any other handgun option. YMMV.
@@ArmedAndIndigenous THAT. That is LITERALLY what is bullshit. You fudds like to claim that the army dropped 45 and the fbi dropped 10mm because of felt recoil, when thats just a myth. The reality is that smaller calibers like the .40 and 9mm are much easier to bring the sights back into line while still providing enough stopping power to put a target down, AND they're cheaper.
My dad was an Oakland cop from 71-07 and has shot 5 people in his career. The first 20 years he carried a model 66 combat magnum with 158grs. The rest of his career he bounced back and forth between a 1911, 5906, and then the 226. All 5 of his personal shoots were 357 and all of them were one shot stops. On the flip side he has been on seen of dozens of other officer involved shootings and hundreds of gang shootings. He will contest that sometimes it will take a dozen rounds into someone before they go down. His partners got into a shoot that the suspect took 2 12ga 00 blasts at 5 yard and 6 357’s before dropping. If someone is determined enough they can still have a minute of fight in them even after taking a hit to the heart. We have all hunted and shot deer with a full power rifle and watched the deer run a block before going down. Then during processing you see that you took out both lungs and the heart with a 30-06 and that thing still ran for 30 sec. Now imagine a severely weaker round with 10x less power.
Nothing works all of the time save decapitation. With a sword. I think carry choice is about leveraging your odds. .357 is a good choice. So is a .45acp. Because if the average lone cop or civilian is going to need dozens of bullets to stop one perp, then no hand gun will be worth spit because none of them have enough rounds to get the job done.. Unless you cap them. And any of the discussed guns will do that, though I'd say the .45 and the 10mm have the edge. Everyone is so obsessed with center mass they forget other targets will work. A round to the head will end a human and even better a round through the hip will stop them dead in their tracks. Because its really hard to walk with no hip. Aim for where the front pocket is on jeans. Massive shock and blood loss. Not to mention cracking their face on the ground breaks their concentration. And if they are still a problem, they're at least a stationary problem.
I agree with 95 % of your comment, but in that shoot you posted that shotgun must have had bean bag rounds. At 5 yards a 12 gauge will shoot the wad clean through the target much less than 9 33 caliber pellets. We are talking about a fist size chunk being taken out. To quote Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch " pistols put hole in people, rifle put holes through people and shotguns with the right load and distance take large chunks iut and throw them on the ground" He is an ex Vietnam combat Marine, ex police officer retired and owner operator and head instructor of Thunder Ranch. A very experienced, straight shooter and national treasure.
@@factsnotfeelingssendit5961 Yep, all sorts of important tubes and meat down there. And even better from the defender's POV the bad man is now only in a position to bite your ankles off! (Monty Python joke just came out LOL)
357 SIG is one of the best cartridges ever made for semi-auto pistols. I don't really understand why it's not anymore popular than it is. Maybe it'll get it's due some day soon! 45 ACP is definitely a tried and true warhorse and hard-hitter! 9mm also has stood the test on battlefields also!
Bottleneck handgun cartridges have never gained a large following, even though a couple were stellar performers. I have a .38 Super slide/barrel for my Colt Light Weight Commander and will be covering it and hot handloads in a future video. It can give near .357 Magnum-level performance, but so can your .357 Sig.
Yup that's why the army went to 45's. However they were using the old 45 Colt rather than the 45 acp. The 45 acp was developed afterwards around 1908 and passed army trials and adopted in 1911 with just a couple modifications.
I shot a VC five times with a Browning HiPower in Vietnam in ‘69. The fifth round entered just under his chin and exited out the crown of his head. The first four never fazed him and he still managed a five inch scrape just below the flowing ribs on my left chest. Two months later, I shot another VC a couple inches below the solar plexus. It folded him and and he went down. That was with one round from a M1911 (.45 ACP). 9mm and .45 ACP ammo were both military hardball.
@@mmabagain There are so many factors that come in to play. There is a pretty small chance that the round that is carrying about the same energy as the 9mm and is only slightly bigger in the grand scheme of things was the determining factor. And before you ask, yes, I have a 9mm as well as a 40 and 45.
@daniel5808 Not true. Whenever those guys came through, they traded their Hi Powers (and a case of air temperature Bud) for a 1911 and 1000 round brick of .45 hardball. I had a Hi Power because our arms room was out of 1911s at the time. Since the Hi Power was off the books, I soon traded it for a 1911. I also carried an M1 Carbine because I hated the Mattel Barbie Gun.
The 10 mm is still as lame as it used to be and don't tell me that the ammunition is getting better it's barely better than 40 caliber I don't know what you're talking about man and I'm up to date on my firearms so I know what I'm talking about
@user-os6dx1cz6s You sound so insulted. Use what you like. I stay up to date on my stuff as well. It's not hard to see that 10mm ballistics are beating the 45acp. 45acp is a good round and so is 9mm but the 10mm has more punch to it. Can you get better with reloads? Yes you probably can if you are into reloading. Yes round selection makes a difference as well. I have 45acp and 10mm handguns and the 10mm has more velocity and energy. Opinions are like ass holes everyone's got one. I personally think 10mm is awesome and will continue to shoot and like it regardless of what you or anyone else says. You told me don't tell or basically undermine you about 10mm. Well guess what I am it's a better overall round for terminal ballistics. I could care less about a 40 S&W it's a necked down 10mm basically. Have a great day and shoot what you like and can afford.
@@GregoryAlcorn-o3g Bro, I was researching bear defense recently and found that the minimum recommended caliber is .357 magnum. Most people in Alaska carry a .44 magnum to be a little safer but have recently started packing a 10mm because of the extra ammo. 9mm, .357 sig, .40, .45 are not recommended for bear defense.
Interesting that this video popped up on my feed now. 34 + years on the street. 26 with an eastern big city department. We started with 9 and ended up with.45, for those who wanted it and could handle it. Results matter. Now im retired in the country and got pulled into a small department due to lack of new recruits. I carry a Glock .40 now and was contemplating going to a 1911 in 10mm. I work nights and am the only one out there. "They" can say what "they" want, but having a powerful blow that you can land with precision is something i find comforting. Well done video Brother. Thanks.
Dad and I conducted an amateur ballistics test on the .357, 9MM, and .45ACP rounds for a high school project of mine in the 1980’s. Can you imagine that today??!😆 Great presentation…
I'll say this too. Anyone remember the summer of 2019? I'll carry a .45 as a civilian thank you very much. Nobody knows what the future holds and civilians can be stuck where they're having to shoot through windshields or doors...from the inside, to try and get away from people intending to do them harm. I watched what happened and learned that lesson well.
I use to do OR for the Navy. One thing I learned is that the head shed decides on the scenario that best supports their pre chosen alternative. In the case of the FBI analysis that claims the 9mm to be the best choice that scenario is what I call the wildwest style shootout. In the shootout shot placement is the only variable that matters. It is not a bad scenario for most police use of force incidents and virtually all armed citizen self defense incidents but it is not the only scenario that a LEO can face. One thing that FBI emphasis on shot placement misses is that shot placement is not independent of caliber. The bigger the bullet the larger the zone of good shot placement becomes. Penetration is a different story. I just saw a RU-vid video (Gun Sam) where he tested 9 mm v .45 Auto through auto glass using Hornady Critical Duty. Both rounds had similar penetration through bare and FBI standard clothing barriers but when shot through auto glass the .45 had twice the penetration.
I’m subscribing for no other reason than your honesty and practical explanation of these two cartridges. How anyone in their right mind would think the 9mm is as good or even better than a 45 baffles me. Thanks again for a non biased but practical lecture on this subject. Absolutely wonderful talk! 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
The dynamics of modern self-defense encounters has changed dramatically in recent years. Aggressors do not come at you one at a time, but often two, three, or more at a time and often with extended magazines. Police have the advantage of trained support which can arrive quickly, or, for that matter, may already be with them at the scene; however, the average citizen in a life or death struggle with multiple attackers has only one strategy available and that is to keep the assailants pinned down until the police arrive. My disagreement is not with concern to the caliber, but rather with the capacity. It may be critical to have enough ammunition to keep multiple attackers at bay for an indeterminate amount of time.
The M&P 45 is a good modern 45 platform. It has a thin, flat grip like the 1911, comes with or without a thumb safety, and increases the capacity from 7/8 rounds to 10.
M&Ps are nice. I have a couple of those, but I EDC a Sig P-320C in .45 ACP. 9+1, 25 ounces, 3.9" barrel, accurate, reliable, and soft-shooting. I carry a 9mm sometimes... but the .45 is my emotional support caliber.
check out wilson combat they make 10 round magazines for the 1911 platform I have 6 of them. Believe me I'm not outnumbered by much in the 9mm department.
I see the merits of 9mm (especially in micro / subcompact conceal carry pistols), and I know that advances in bullet technology has brought them a long way forward, but… I’m also a firm believer that bigger bullets leave bigger holes, and also those bullet advances have also made their way over to 45 caliber too. And as much as a 9mm can expand, a 45 doesn’t shrink! All that being said, shoot whatever you shoot best.
Yes, when S&W aka Big Blue ran the recent rebate 2023 offer 🛒 I considered a new Shield .40 because they offered after market .357sig, 9mm barrels. The flash, blast 💥 didn't seem worth it. I owned a Shield 9mm from 2014 to 2016. The gun worked great, fed cycle factory 9mm; no problems.
Kinetic energy on impact is far more important than projectile size. A good round that moves with great velocity and solid shot placement does the trick. I like .40, .45 and 9mm. I also love .22Lr. I think finding what one is the most comfortable with is the absolute most important. It is better to be armed with a weapon you can use effectively than have a weapon you just can't use correctly. Lots of science to test the ballistics but none of it matters if you can't hit anything. Size does not matter. Skill does.
Appreciate your perspective here, especially as a LEO. I live in a state that limits us to 10 rounds. I understand the benefit of extra 9mm rounds. But trying to figure out the best overall round to carry if 10 rounds is the max. I feel like low weight \ high velocity .45 is the way to go.
Wyatt Earp wrote about gunfights and stressed the importance of accuracy above all else. That always stuck with me. His writing on the subject is a good read 👍
@@michaelhennegan9637 36 colt navy is weaker Than a 38 special, 80gr bullet at 800-900 fps with a 7 inch barrel, 38 special with send a 158 gr bullet at about the same velocity from a 3 in barrel
Yeah except in his day you had five shots and maybe one reload if you carried an extra chamber around with you and so did the other guy. You had to be careful about your shots. Nowadays gunfighting has things like suppressive fire, and criminals running around with AR pistols n shit. I recommend watching Donut operators channel and all the shootouts he has on there and see if you think everything Wyatt Earp said applies to modern day gunfights.
You sir are absolutley right. I am ex infantry officer, so lets compare FMJ 9mm to FMJ 45 As far as the number of rounds in actual application of both rounds in combat. The nine generally take multiple rounds to stop the fight unless you head shoot the enemy.... they still come on after taking several hits which just pencile through the combatant. Now lets look at the 45 ACP, most stop the fight far quicker, normally one shoot to the thorasic cavity stops the combantant. It just dumps more energy to the target and it's wound cavity starts out larger which leaks more of the targets hydraulic fluid with little left over once it exits. As you stated the bullet technology can be applied currently to all calibers. This was all tested over a hundred years ago with the Thatcher tests performed on live animals when the Army was ditching the 38 in favor of a 45 heavy caliber pistol. In the energy formula 1/2 MV squared.... velocity is king but they tend to point to tempoary hydrostaic shock on tissue, however that comes to play in actual gun fights with velocites are in excess of 2,000 fps (rifle cartridges) and not at handgun velocities. Using Hatchers formula it takes into account the bullets diameter or mass x caliber x velocity devided by 7,000 grains. If you run the numbers you will always find that the high speed 9mm is almost half as effective as the number of a 45 ACP at any bullet weight. That would also comfirm the Armies testing data as performed on live animals. Speed alone does not necessarily make a cartridge more effective. Bullet weight and caliber play a equally impirtant part in the real world. Why do you think the US Delta (Special Forces) operation teams still use a 45 ACP model 1911. They can also be made more quite / surpressed because the rounds are subsonic 9mm's have to use 147 grain bullets and yet they still are at times still at or above 1,000 fps. I am also a life long shooter, firearms instructor and an avid reloader for over 45 years, so I am quite well versed on the topic of which I speak. So in closing I have to whole heartedly agree with your assessment.
Thanks for your support, and thanks for your service. A few years ago Delta switched to Glock .40 S&W, but they have some latitude in SpecOps, so some individuals may still be carrying .45s.
The 45 is a lower pressure cartridge so it has very similar energy numbers to the 9mm. Most handgun rounds today have around 35k psi chamber pressure (including 9mm, 40 S&W, 44 mag) but the 45 is only around 21k psi. Just like the 380 ACP and 38 Special, the 45 ACP is a neutered cartridge with fairly low chamber pressure. Like you said, magazine capacity is where the 9mm really beats the 45.
The 9mm is a subpar caliber, makes a smaller hole in the intended target and doesn’t have the same stopping power. That’s the problem with 9mm, and I don’t recommend it at all.
I do believe that with modern technology, the 9mm has become a very effective cartridge, much more so than it once was. I carry one daily. I do not think that it is the same as carrying a .45 of an equivalent design (i.e. Barnes TAC-XPD) but I do believe that ultimately handgun cartridges are lacking much when compared to a rifle. I can see where some people might come to the conclusion that a 9 is "as good as 45" because when comparing stats of One-Shot-Stops or maybe ballistics...that the numbers come out close. When once the 9mm was rated as an 89-91% one shot stopper versus the 45 at 90-92% (or something like that) that they think it's close enough. And they may be right when you take into consideration that the amount of training they can manage to become capable with one over the other and cost of ammo. To them, it is. This ammo capacity thing though, I gotta say I really dislike people who insist that their single stack auto or their magnum revolver has more than enough capacity for any given situation that ~they~ don't feel more is needed. That's fine. Good for them! Carry your Ruger SP101 with no reloads then. But outliers exist. They're outliers for a reason, and in the 30 plus years I have been carrying a sidearm I have never needed any more than what was in my gun. I hope that never changes but don't go telling me that I will NEVER need more...because I guarantee that it is THEN that more will be needed. Murphy's Law and all. Imagine if someone made a law saying you could no longer carry a .45 because it's too big and causes waaay too much damage so must be restricted to only the military.
So carry a couple of back up magazines or speed loaders. One is none and two is one. Mags have been a leading cause of stoppages in semi auto matic pistols.
Usually carry a HK45. That's 10+1 45 acp always carry another magazine. Not because I'd need the ammo. The thing that malfunctions the most in a semiauto pistol is the magazine. As for carry a 9mm, no problem with it good self-defense ammo can be found, and I love Beretta 92s. However, as 5.7 has become more affordable, now that PSA is making it. For me, it's going to be more tempting to carry a 5.7 than a 9mm due to the light weight.
@douglasduda9826 The shooting starts multiple, attackers will usually run. A 75-year-old woman in Oakland just ran off two intruders with a 357. The best thing is to have both revolver and semiauto. You get 6 to 7 for sure round from the revolver, and then go to a semiauto with all the positives and negatives that comes with semiautos.
I spent lots of time comparing coroner’s reports against fatal wounds and vital organ damage caused by different handgun rounds. .45cal from my research provides much better energy delivery to the body. I’ve been involved with many incidents over my career. It is not comforting to have seen how many persons struck by a 9mm round continued to fight or flee before they were incapacitated or died from their wounds. Personal experience made be start asking questions of our trauma surgeons locally post incident. I’m not indicating 9mm isn’t a good round or it’s less lethality. My only input regarding this argument involves stopping power and vital organ damage. I personally carry .45 for EDC, sometimes I carry 9mm because it’s easy to hide while out in public on my own time. Training can not be substituted for cal and number of rounds. Train often, train hard, like your life depends on it. It’s a bad day to have to shoot someone, it’s a horrible day if you have to shoot someone and it doesn’t stop them. Be safe y’all
The .45 ACP is nothing to sneeze at at far as effectiveness. That said, the guns are bulky, the ammo eats mag space, and it has the least hard barrier penetration of all the common self defense rounds. Rounds in the gun equals time in the fight, and the .45 is always going to hold less.
Lehigh rounds in a 45acp, either extreme penetrators or defenders will go through multiple types of barriers with no problems and still penetrate at the fbi standards in a gel block. There are videos proving this.
@@jona5517 yes, they will.... AND a smaller gun with less weight, more ammo, less recoil, and faster split times will do the same thing... with or without boutique ammo.
Spot on video and opinion my father survived ww2 and carried a 45cal throughout the war.He always preached the importance of the round seeing firsthand experience of it. In later years as a avid collector of firearms he had his choice of cal but his service 1911 hung on his bed post as his go to.
Yes sir. A .45 will always make a .45 sized hole. Because after two ammo droughts its possible you might be stuck with .45ball in the next one. And in FMJ .45acp is the only way to let lead fly.
The late R Lee Emery wrote of meeting a safari guide in Africa who had a early model Glock 17 9mm pistol. Emery, as a Glock company spokes person/PR offered to give the Safari Guide a brand new Glock 9mm gen 4, a few new magazines, holster etc. The guide declined the offer & said; my Glock 9mm has worked fine for 25 years ✔️ . I've killed 6 men, had several animals attack me, had fended off several robbers & thugs. The Glock 17 9mm never let me down or had any jams. Emery was impressed!
I sometimes carry a 9mm pistol because it is slim, easier to conceal, and more controllable for a smaller handgun. However, I refrain from kidding myself about the power of that round. The .45 ACP definitely packs a harder punch. The modern Federal HST 230gr looks to be the best manstopper among handgun bullets outside of the magnum category. Regarding the handgun grip on double stack .45 pistols: The Springfield XD did improve on the grip size compared to the Glock 21. However, Springfield unfortunately made mistakes that put them in the doghouse with the gun community.
If i shoot you with 4 9mm in the chest or 4 45 acp i doubt you'd live long enough to notice a difference. So just shoot what you want and be happy, nobody cares what anyone else shoots anyway
I have most common handgun calibers, I used to carry a revolver most of the time. BUT as my heart gets weaker so do I, and the lighter plastic guns are easier to carry. I am confident with any caliber, even 22lr, my backup is a NAA mini revolver.
My Sheriff’s office went to 40 cal Glocks around 2005, and around 2019 they started transitioning back to 9mm. The training department said it was because of ammo cost and availability. I don’t know, I retired in 2020 and kept my 20 cal as part of my retirement. I never had a problem qualifying with my 40.
I was originally issued a Glock 22 in 2003 and my agency switched to 9mm about 15 years later. When I wanted to stay with the 40 people asked me, “why, how can a 1mm larger make a difference?” I’d tell them think of it in reverse. Would you rather carry a 380 or a 9mm on the street? What does it matter if they’re the same caliber? Made them think.
As a retired PO firearms instructor my experiences showed people with small hands and limited strength , smaller men and most females struggled with the 40 caliber glocks we had. The recoil caused problems. Police forces now employ many more female officers than back in my day. I can see why a tamer recoil might be better these days. As for me personally, 45 is my fav caliber to shoot....no disrespect to the Lady officers intended....
Whatever bullet evolution that has enhanced the 9mm performance over the years, has also had the same effect on the .45 auto. Battlefield performance with FMJ bullets, has proven that the .45 auto has a significant advantage in terminal performance over the 9mm.
@@chubbyjohnson5480 almost every bullet type, configuration, construction, shape, and material, that is available in 9mm is also available in .45 auto. The 9mm is 10 years older than the .45 auto.
I was lucky enough to be able to carry my 1911 for many years as a duty gun. I did have a 9mm mandated at one agency and felt perfectly comfortable. I still carry a .45 regularly. as well as a little Glolck 43.
There are some very musinformed people. I was heavy into the 10mm and have abandoned it. It offered no advantage over the 45 ACP for ME. I have observed 45 ACP out perform the 10mm - even penetrating further through water jugs depending on the loads... think on that. So, when the gun store employee tells ma a 9mm is superior or even on par with the 45 ACP, Ive heard all I need to hear. TKO, momentum and ACTUAL DAMAGE opposed to energy foot pounds can be a good start. Great video!
@@stevenp8198 I suppose you can go as far as you want with either - 10mm from 40 s&w mild loads right up to full house 10mm, but you can do the same thing with a 45, so I suppose it comes down to preference, but I see absolutely no advantage to the 10mm based on the weakest loads right up to the hottest I've used - at best they performed roughly the same with the heavy 45 ACP actually outperforming it.
@@alaefarmestatesllc how so? So you’re saying other rounds the bullets come back out and the wounds heal? Because if you think it makes sense then that’s apparently what you’re saying. And btw, in my career in L.E. and before as a paramedic I saw many people shot with all types of rounds. The .45 wasn’t the wonder bullet some of you want to pretend it is.
@@livewithnick I think you need help if you can’t figure out what op said. Not surprised being that u were in law enforcement. Most of u can’t shoot, and even more are completely useless. Try using that brain for once. It doesn’t cost a thing to do so.
40 delivers more energy than 9 or 45. ( if you compare 124 gr to 180 to 230 gr ) or lighter grains to each caliber. That being said, the 3 calibers are good self defense options. It is just a personal preference. Use whatever makes you feel good.
I'm 52 & a Army veteran; licensed G armed security officer, since 2002. I own-ccw a few calibers. I carry 9mm +P on security details. I wear my snub .38spl M&P or carry my Glock 22 gen 4 with either a 9mm LWD 🐺 barrel or a Glock Store .357sig barrel. For ammunition I use bonded Golden Saber or Federal HST.
May years ago I owned a Khar single stack .45 and it was both accurate and reliable - was, in my opinion, greatly underestimated and under appreciated - and it used 1911 magazines. I did eventually moved to a .40, but the old Kahr was a great arm and easy to shoot. Thanks for a great video!
I too loved the Kahr 45. That I owned. Accurate and easily a tack driver. But I wanted more pellets to throw downrange at IDPA and such. Wish I still had it!
9mm+P and 9mm+P+ is better at going through auto materials than 45 ACP. A lot of police shootings involve shots through auto doors and glass. That’s the fact Jack.
The 9mm, .40 S&W and the 45acp all suffer as a good fight stopper when compared to a rifle or shotgun. Handgun stopping power is a myth. The the technology of modern projectiles relating to controlled expansion and increased velocities due to improved powders have greatly improved the 9mm in penetration that now meet the FBI requirements. I think most will agree 9mm won’t out perform the .40 S&W and the .40 S&W won’t out perform the 45 ACP But the gap has closed in recent years to where there’s not that much difference. I don’t recall the FBI claiming the 9mm out performs the .45 ACP The FBI claims the 9mm is the better choice due to many reasons a higher volume of ammunition in the gun and your back up magazines, lower recoil, smaller frame guns that are more user friendly for most people and easier to make faster more accurate fire. What stops an attacker with any of these calibers is shot placement and with any skill level your better off having more ammunition available and now that the 9mm meets the penetration requirements it’s really a no brainer what the best option is. John Browning understood it when he designed the browning Hi Power, the United States military understands it and the FBI has figured it out. Studies shows most law enforcement shootings result in only about 30 percent of the rounds hitting their target what about adding multiple attackers? The idea that more bullets isn’t important is a ridiculous statement, I’ve never heard anyone that’s been involved in combat say they had too many bullets but there have been many that ran out that wish they had more I’ll refer you to the 1986 FBI Miami shoot out. The FBI has the best ballistic lab in the world and has spent millions coming to their conclusions.
Actually the rifle & shotgun trump ALL pistols & revolvers!!! One shot from a .223 caliber or 12 gauge 3” magnum 00 buckshot or slug gonna send someone to see Jesus!!! Call the medical examiner shits over!!!
As soon as I saw this video title card I knew exactly the type of person I was going to see behind the camera. I'll take my 17rds of 9 over his 7rds of 45 every day of the week
Glock has a single stack 45 acp. It’s the Glock 36. I’ve had it since 2008 and it’s been flawless. No malfunctions and It’s very accurate. 6 round magazines. It’s about the same size as the Glock 19/23. I use the Underwood Extreme Defenders in all my self defense pistols. They are the best barrier blind ammo also great penetration.
I wouldn't discount the .45 GAP either. People asked Glock for a .45 with the grip size of a 9mm. They shortened the .45 casing, used the same amount of powder, used small caliber primer, and the same 230 grain bullet. A couple of manufacturers are starting to produce this round again, Buffalo Bore is one of them.
1.) All handgun loadings are terrible when compared to long guns. It's just a matter of degree. 2.) Fire discipline has gotten worse, but it looks like gunfighters tend to shoot about half of their available ammunition in single engagements, regardless of total rounds available to them. Perhaps they should train to shoot less and hit more 🤔 3.) An 18 shot 9mm has no advantage over a 6 shot 44mag if every target automatically gets 3 bullets. You'll fight the way you train, and an 18 shot pistol with a "3 round burst" trigger finger is a six-shooter 😂
Great analysis. I carried 9/40/45 throughout my career. I currently carry 9. I can shoot all equally well, but I don’t have grip issues primarily because I shoot thousands of rounds of all three annually. I agree that there’s no way todays 9mm self defense is equal to todays 45. We carry HST and the energy displayed isn’t even close. You can make the argument that a flyswatter and an anvil will both kill a fly so they’re both equal.
I’ve been shooting for 65 years, I spent two decades as a military officer, I learned a great deal about firearms when I was a kid from my FBI Special Agent father . . . and there’s a reason why my “at home” sidearms are either an H&P USP .45 Tactical or (12 + 1) or a Sig P226 chambered in .40 S&W (13 + 1). Yep, a 9x19 mm will have greater capacity, BUT how many rounds realistically are required to subdue armed home intruders legally? The fact is, an excellent Ruger or Smith six round DA revolver will suffice, and I do NOT want to risk innocents with a “spray and pray” approach to lawful defense.
9mm can go through a German ww2 helmet, while a 45 Will just leave a dent, I realize a 45 has stopping powder but not penetrating power, my cousin shot his 45 at a target almost 100 yards away just for fun, the bullet drop into the pond right before the target lol, and a 9mm can easily go through a car door while a 45 might get through, I’ve seen it in videos and in person, I’m not hating, just my own experience 👍🏻
I could say a thing or two about "stopping power" but .45 clearly has less penetration than .45 in bone. "Next we have the various .38 caliber auto loading cartridges, the old .38 Colt auto, now about obsolete, the later Super .38 auto Colt and the well known 9 mm. Luger. The .38 Colt auto developed 1070 feet with a 130 grain jacketed bullet and the newer Colt Super .38 auto raised the ante to 1300 feet with the same 130 grain jacketed bullets. Both loads are excellent for penetration but have little shock. I have shot a lot of small game, and some game not so small with them, and found them inferior in shock effect in every case to the .45 Colt auto cartridge. They would shoot much flatter over unknown ranges and penetrate a great deal better than the 230 grain .45 auto punkin. On small game the .45 auto was by all odds the best killer and also on body shots on deer and similar game, but for brain penetration the two .38 auto cartridges are superior to the .45 auto.” Source: “Six-guns” Elmer Keith. We have the large caliber proponent Elmer Keith admitting that the .38 ACP ( which is very similar to 9mm) and the .38 Super both penetrate skulls better than the .45 ACP does. I would assume Elmer Keith is talking about the standard .45 ACP FMJ round when he says ".45 auto punkin." He doesn't use the term "punkin" anywhere else in this book by the way.
Spot on video. Ask any combat veteran which caliber pistol they would prefer to have as their sidearm I think most would say 45. The 45 packs the umph to stop someone in their tracks. Having seen almost every caliber bullet wound, of course shot placement is the key. However I have seen people shot multiple times with both 9mm and 45 who survived because of lots of different variables distance, shot placement that missed vital organs, fast EMS and Hospital Interventions , and prepared cops i.e. tourniquets etc. My personal opinion is that cops or civilians want the capacity to keep fighting vs reloading which under stress is sometimes impossible. The debate has been going on for at least since Law Enforcement switched from 38spl to 9, 40 or 45 and will continue. There are just too many variables to consider for everyone to agree. But I have to agree with Dick on this one. I sometimes use the analogy that it’s like hitting someone with a ball peen hammer vs a sledge hammer both will kill you one just packs the bigger initial punch. Just my humble view from being in the business for 44 years.
@@user-un5my5bw4j If neither load can dump all of their energy into the intended target, does it matter? Are you using "published" velocities or recorded? As in, what the manufacturer is claiming vs. random person measuring as a test. Many manufacturers have been proven to over rate their ammo velocities by a significant margin when actually tested by random RU-vidrs. In some cases as much as 500 FPS less than what was claimed on the box.
I did a unscientific test shooting an old steel water heater with 115gr 9x19 FMJ and 165gr .40 S&W FMJ. The 9x19 merely dented and none penetrated but the .40 punched holes in it. I was impressed by the .40 in that experiment. I like all the calibers, and find the .40 to be the best overall performance/capacity compromise in a duty sized handgun, but I find the 9mm ideal in a single stack sub compact for performance, controllability, and capacity. The .45 is a great round but suffers from capacity and/or size of the gun, and costs of ammunition for training and inventory. Regardless I have examples of these guns and like them all. YMMV.
Even on swinging steel plates you can tell a difference. Even when they have the same exact energy numbers for some reason the 45 swings the plate more. I don't know if it's momentum or what but I always found that interesting.
I agree, the difference in the "smack" on the steel plates makes me think a .45 hits harder, but the scientists can't measure that effect, so they ignore it.
@@lockloadwithdickfairburn-cr1jb Yeah, and you get called an idiot by all the keyboard warriors if you refute them. Texas star plates hit with a 9mm drop straight down. They get driven back 3-4’ with my mild .45 ACP load.
Which bullet is more powerful: the Buffalo Bore 9mm +P+ 115 gr @ 1400 fps [500 ft lbs ME] or the standard pressure 45 ACP 230 gr @ 850 fps [367 ft lbs ME]. Fire both into the sand trap of a 100 pound Ballistic Pendulum and the surprising answer is the 45 ACP is the harder hitting round. The 115 gr 9mm @ 1400 fps will move the pendulum at 2.76 inches per second while the 230 gr 45 ACP at 850 fps will move the pendulum at 3.35 inches per second for 21.3% greater striking force. This is because "Muzzle Energy" is NOT bullet striking force. "Muzzle Energy" is effectively the horsepower developed by the powder charge to accelerate a given bullet weight to stated velocity against aerodynamic and gravitational resistance. To accelerate a bullet past 1000 fps to the 20% higher 1200 fps velocity requires 44% more accelerating energy from the powder charge. Accelerating a 9mm bullet to 1400 fps will require 171 % more energy from the powder charge than accelerating the same bullet to 850 fps, and that is what the ME calculations mean. Mathematically, ME is the energy in the accelerating vector of the bullet. Once the bullet exits the muzzle, the bullet is mathematically on the "Deceleration Vector" because the energy developed by the powder charge has ceased and no longer has any influence on the bullet. This is why bullet striking force is not the same as the bullet accelerating force represented by "Muzzle Energy".
I've always been a fan of small and light with higher capacity magazines. By those measures the 9mm is superior, but in terms of dealing damage per on-target shot I'm with ya. Though of course there's always a bigger bullet, you've just got to figure out where you're losing more than you're gaining.
Back in the day are used to shoot bowling pin matches. 45s were the gun. I never shot the 9 mm at bowling pins, but they said they would not knock the pins off the table. I know the 45 work very well with a good hit. I still smile at the pins flying through the air.
9 is a joke and so is sub and compacts. The real 45 collector. (Full Size) - FN FNX 45 Tactical - FN 545 Tactical - HK USP 45 Tactical (hard to get) - S&W 2.0 Tactical (Discontinued) - Springfield XDM Tactical (Discontinued) - Glock Gen 3 Austrian version Tactical (been discontinued) - Glock 21 Gen 5 MOS (adding TB) - CZ 97b (discontinued) - CZ P10 F 45 (Extremely rare and Discontinued/low production) - Kimber 1911 custom Tactical (1,000 made) - Kimber Black Ice Rapide (limited production) - Springfield 1911 Loaded MC Operator (unsure if low production or limited edition) - Desert Eagle 45 - Sig Equinox 45 (P220) - Walther PPQ 45 (Discontinued) - Beretta pX4 Storm Type F (not sure if their discontinued but you cannot find. The limited production model was the LE fde model type F) - American Ruger 45 (hard to find) - Ruger SR45 (Discontinued 2017) - Taurus 24/7 Pro - Taurus TH45 - Smith & Wesson Governor - Ruger Vaquero - Sarsilmaz K2 - Charter Arms Pit Bull 45 All I need currently to every 45 on the market made is - Hipoint 45 Gen 2 - Kahr cm45 or pm45 - Taurus PT845 - HK45 Tactical - Stoeger ST45 Older models I would like to have (45) - GM Liberator 45 - Ruger P90 - Colt premium or limited production 1911 - 1911 Polymer - SMG 45 - Kriss Vector 45 - Colt Double Eagle DS/SA - ATI FXH DSC 45 - Para-Ordinance P45 If I miss any text me below so I can add to my collection/museum.
Excellent commentary Sir, I i’ve been in law-enforcement for 32 years started out way back when carrying the Ruger GP100 in 357 mag (still one of my favorites) since then I’ve carried the SigP220 in 45 ACP,Glock 19 9 mm and currently the Glock 23 in 40 S/W. I’ve seen a few shootings over the course of the past 32 years and have heard all of the same arguments about the “superior” 9mm round. Our agency was considering switching back to 9 mm last year until we had an officer involved shooting,the bad guy was dropped with a single 40 caliber Winchester 180 grain SXT to the chest. That pretty much ended the discussion on switching back to 9 mm.
I've carried a 9mm for more years than anything else, because of policy. When I could carry what I wanted, it was a .45. Any of them will work with good bullet placement, but the .40 & .45 offer a degree of insurance I prefer. I've been a pound of trigger pull away on three occasions and two of them were looking over the sights of a 5.56mm, so you see my real preference.
Tell that to the guy who says there is .45 technology has not kept up with 9mm technology. I agree with you that if you want lots of energy, size, penetration as well as expansion, then your .45 is bad ass and to say that the equivalent in 9 is better is inaccurate. If you CHOOSE more rounds and are more comfortable with 9 then go with it. If you want 230 grains of penetrating, expanding, energy dumping beast at your disposal then .45 is your ammo. The Fed HST .45 + P 230 grain ammo is also amazing. If you want more rounds, smaller firearm, less weight, then sure stay with your 9mm. A lot of people, would choose super hot 5.7 ammo with three 20 round magazines! To each his or her own!!
The problem with the .40 caliber is not the AMOUNT of recoil. The problem is with the ERRATIC RECOIL PATTERN. With any other pistol cartridge 9mm, .45, etc. the way the pistol recoils is consistent. With the .40 the recoil pattern changes shot to shot. Other than that you’re spot on.
No matter how you look at it, .35 does not equal .45. It's .10" to start with. Some of the .45 ACP hollow point bullets expand to about 3/4". If you think about it, you soon realize that's bigger than 12 bore diameter, and no 9mm with the same bullet construction will expand as large. When people argue that there have been so many advances in ammo technology the last 5 or 10 years that 9mm is now as good as .45, I always point out one thing. The same applies to .45 bullets, so they're better than they were, 5 or 10 years ago, too. Pick any number as an example - if the .45 was 25% better than the 9mm before, and the 9mm suddenly got 50% better, it's still not as good as a .45 now, if it got 50% better too. If it's a choice between putting 115 grain or 230 grain chunks of lead downrange, I'll always pick the ones that weigh twice as much. Even if they don't expand, they hit hard and make big holes.
I've got several 9mm pistols but only one .45 acp, a SA Champion race gun. I see the difference in on-target energy every time I shoot them. While 9mm is adequate, the .45 is devastating. The accuracy is so much better with the 1911 too. Even my new Echelon 9mm won't out shoot it. You are so right about recoil. It's largely in your mind. Shooting a couple hundred rounds a week tends to make dread of it go away.
9 mini-meter is very much cheaper than .45 and .40 S&W. The FBI wanted to save a lot of money on their firearms budget. So, FBI wrote a study "proving" that the 9 mm is just as good, or better, than the larger calibers. I worked for the government, and that's the way the government works. 1) Decide on what result you want. Then, 2) Write a "study" to prove the result you've already decided on it the only way to go.
To me, 40 is the best round. Going to the typical duty load. One magazine in the pistol, two on the belt. Going with Glock, to keep it simple. 9mm you get fifty two rounds. With 45 it's forty rounds. In 40 you get forty six. 9mm and 45 are roughly the same amount of energy per round. 40 is notably more energy than either, per round. It gives you the most energy for your basic load out. That being said, I still carry 9mm, because (unlike the FBI, I'm at least honest about it) I can't as easily afford the ammo cost for 40s&w.
Two points. (1.) Glock does make a single stack .45 ACP, the excellent and often forgotten G36. (2.) Another advantage of the .45 ACP is that in the event of an ammunition shortage, .45 ball is, as the late Dean Speir said, "proper defensive ammunition."
Hubby started out carrying a Para Ordnance Hi-Cap .45, backed by a .380 Guardian. Later switched to .40 S&W in both duty and backup (Glock 35 & 27), because the backup could use both mags. Retired, he carries either 10mm Glock 40 & 29 or .357 Magnum S&W R8 & PD360 (both with Hilary hole deleted). Lately he doesn't believe anything coming out of the Ef-Bee-Eye.
@@jason200912 Again, you are confused. A 9mm or .357 SIG does not use the same bullet and or loading's as a .357 Mag. They are similar, but not the same. The .357 SIG does not push a 158gr bullet. 99% of the time its a 124gr or 147gr bullet. If we compare bullet to bullet 124gr .357 SIG vs 125gr .357 Mag, the Mag's bottom end velocity starts where the SIG maxes out. I've been developing loads for many calibers including these two for the better parts of two decades. I know the differences. You are comparing Apples to Oranges here. 9mm +P is nowhere near .357 Sig or .357 Magnum when comparing same or near same weight bullets. Go get some reloading manuals and educate yourself.
The original loads in 10mm auto was a manstopper. But most new law enforcement recruits ARE NOT gun people before they enter the academy. So they reduced the case length, and created the 40S&W Never understood why because it just duplicated the ballistics of the.45acp. With 230 grain FMJ rounds, it's been stopping aggression with ONE SHOT to the torso, 19times out of 20 (95% one shot stops) for 80 years.
Soy un hombre de 73 años. Retirado de Policía. Comparto al 100% su valioso aporte con su franco e inteligente comparativo. Soy portador de mi "mamba negra" que así llamo a mi GLOCK 27 y con campera portador de GLOCK 30S. Tengo otras armas de porte. Pero estas 2 me brindan un plus mental superior. Hasta pronto señor. Formidable video...✌️
Shot placement > Pistol Caliber size. If you (random people) think the latter is most important why carry a 45 acp when you can just as easily carry a 44 magnum revolver? The measured energy difference between a modern 9mm and 45 is miniscule when compared to something like a rifle cartridge. In reality I carry my small 9mm far more often and more places than anyone in my family carries their large 45. Food for thought years ago 357 sig held the highest single shot lethality rate.
It depends on the intended usage. I pick 9mm over 45 for three reasons... 1. Concealability 2. Ammo capacity 3. Cheaper ammo for more practice. A 45 that is concealable will hold 8 rounds at best. A 45 that is relatively concealable has far too much muzzle rise for quick follow up shots. Its not that i cant handle the recoil. Its just simple physics. If i were to carry a 45, it would be a full size 1911 style. But that limits the available carrying options to a shoulder holster rig. A 9mm with a 124 or 147 grain bullet, especially in a +P cartridge, is a formidable round.
I have both and carry both. Unfortunately my 10mm is a G29 and I don’t like to carry striker fired pistols appendix carry because I don’t want to risk the health of my wedding tackle. So I tend to carry the Sig P220 in said carry position.
People will cope and think their skills are way above than what they are, then choose an oversized caliber so they can feel big and masculine. That's the reality.
@@avatarion I don't think you can make a blanket statement like that. Case in point, I shoot my 10mm much better than I do my 9mm's but it could be the gun. I shoot all my 45's better than both calibers. I shoot my wife's 380 worse of any gun in my possession. You just have to put in the time and the range and see what works for you.
Projectile design far outweighs caliber. Modern hollow points aren’t really expanding to make a bigger hole, its to control penetration. No duty caliber is traveling fast enough to stand out from one another. Bullet hole size is almost irrelevant, hole location matters… So, they’re all getting nearly identical penetration, even through barriers, doing nearly identical damage to soft tissue (if we’re talking same projectile type). So, more ammo, less recoil, faster follow up shots…yeah, 9mm. And to disregard training concerns around recoil is like denying any other reality of life. Departments are on limited training time / funds. You aren’t getting cops to shoot 5k rounds of .45 to get proficient. DocGKR for real data not hypothetical nonsense. Science doesn’t care about opinions.
A couple of points here. I went through the full transition cycle in my career. First, with a .357 magnum, then 9mm, then.45 auto, then.40 S&W. I transitioned to a quality custom .45 capable of greater accuracy than my 9. Much of this influenced by the Police Training Institute in Illinois. Only department policy drove the change to .40. The 9mm had gone through a couple of perceived failures to stop. One with the FBI in Florida which drove them to the 10mm then .40 cal. The other in Illinois where 2 ISP Troopers had difficulty in neutralizing a biker in a leather jacket. Some of the problems identified with the WW Silvertip was the hollow point not expanding with plugs of leather in them, and ammo which failed to meet factory specifications. A PR nightmare for Winchester who quickly rushed the law enforcement only version of +P+ ammo to ISP minus the silver tip. ISP eventually made the transition to .40 getting a higher capacity magazine. The biker, by the way, was wanted for murder, an actually died of a heart attack. He only carried a 5 shot revolver so when ISP returned fire, he was already empty and dying due to cardiac problems. The FBI on the other hand, continued to use their custom .45 automatics for their special teams. I believe the decision to transition back to a 9mm is a training issue. Recruits, with no firearms experience do better with lighter 9mm loads while police administrations are comforted that fewer recruits wash out for failing to qualify and their ammo budgets look better. The comfort themselves by saying, look , we’re just following what the science provided by the FBI says. Th say a 9 equals a .40 or .45, BS
Yes. His bad luck day. An ISP squad with 2 Troopers not 1. I had some of those +P+ firecrackers that were gifted to me. Still have the box. ISP also started out wearing their new 39’s in a cross draw holster to start. The rationale being they would have violators seated in the front seat and the cross draw kept the gun out of reach. Don’t think that lasted too long.
Excellent analysis and very cool dogs there at the end! 9mm, in my view, is great for little concealed carry guns for folks who probably aren't going to be called upon to shoot thru windshields or car doors. I flat out think it's better in tiny little single stacks like the Smith Shield. But I chose a .40 S&W for home defense. A little more power and only minus one or two rounds of capacity? Reasonable trade in my book. You get used to the recoil after one or two servings of red meat! Thanks for the video! You earned yourself a new subscriber!
Thanks for the video, Dick. I’ve had this same argument with literally dozens of people. I think their main argument is just like the Chevy vs Ford. Once you’ve bought one, you don’t want to admit that the other is just as good or maybe a little better. About 98% of these guys argue that they have so many more rounds available. I’m 70 years old. I really don’t see myself going places and getting into an outright firefight. My .45 1911’s, regardless of round capacity, are plenty for me. And with rounds that expand to almost an inch, they give me the terminal output I can count on.
High capacity has been the holy grail of some folks since the Browning High Power P35 pistol first hit the market. If you are carrying a pistol to get INTO trouble (cops/military) high capacity is an issue, but most of us carry a pistol to get OUT of trouble (concealed carry/personal protection). I feel a single-stack magazine of ammo, coupled with good training which includes mental preparation, will do just fine.
These 3 calibers generally perform about the same with nods to 9mm for capacity and .45 for expansion. I have long believed and still believe the .40 is the best compromise and provides enough speed/weight to penetrate barriers while not sacrificing size or capacity in a practical sense in a duty sized gun. In the same sized gun, for instance, for approximately the same performance per bullet, you're getting roughly 30%-50% more capacity in a 9mm over .45acp, and that is significant (or to retain larger capacity the .45s are larger guns than the 9mm counterparts). The difference between 9mm and .40 is much closer in capacity, maybe 15%, in the same frame gun. But .40 can do things 9mm cannot reliably, such as barrier penetration like car windshields (9mm is generally too light and can deflect off windshields). Capacity seems to be exponentially less important the higher you go above 10 rounds, with diminishing returns, and people can carry reloads. For defense and LEO applications for the INDIVIDUAL defender/officer, for a service sized carry gun, I believe the .40 S&W offers the best combination of ballistic performance, barrier penetration (such as car windshields, as I learned in actual training), capacity and pistol size allowing for a full 2 hand grip to tame recoil. However, when getting down to subcompacts and compacts for deep concealment, I believe 9x19 is better for controllability (.40s are very snappy and harder in small guns), and capacity (.40s simply suffer too much loss in capacity in low capacity small guns), and training costs. I like the .45 but it is rarely my top choice. The pistols suffer from capacity, and either much larger or single stacks greatly suffer from capacity loss. Shooting less rounds to get the job done, should be noted, as a big advantage. While the .45 is excellent and powerful, it suffers from capacity, and/or size, and higher costs (detracting from training). Ammunition costs for training, and stockpiling, cannot be overlooked. You can train probably 15% more with 9mm over .40 or 30% more over .45acp. Training and stocking ammo is very important.... From a LEO administrative, budget, and female recruitment perspective I fully understand the return to less expensive and easier to control 9mm. More training, more accuracy, more confidence for female officers.
Finally someone with a platform spoke the truth! The 9mm would literally have to defy physics to be even as good as a .40, .45, or 10mm....much less pass them in performance. I also don't perceive a significant increase in recoil between the calibers except when I'm firing Buffalo Bore ammo in 10mm. However to be fair, on a timer, I have noticed an almost negligible time between shots. I have to use a timer to notice that. I did go back to a 9mm in March of this year. I bought a Sig P365 for a pocket gun. I waited till I felt they had finally got the pistol dialed in as far as reliability. I stayed with my Glock 27 till then, and still do carry it quite a bit as well. I'm still basically a 1911 or Glock guy as far as semi-autos are concerned except for that P365. I have gotten lazy and carry a LW Commander in .45 still. I had Colt's Custom Shop build me a Defender in .45 since I didn't own one and heard they could be finicky. They did a great job on mine. It runs like a top. I've only got a little over 1100 rds through it so far. About 300 of those rds were hollow points. Since Speer's Flying Ashtray is extinct, I use PMC Starfire to see if they'll feed. I don't like the bullet in any round except I've seen some good guns choke with them. That Defender doesn't seem to mind them. There's also the fact that you'd have to shoot one into an Abrams tank to maybe get it expand a little. Once again great channel and great content. Yesterday, I figured out why I felt like knew you. I was rearranging my gun room. I keep a lot of police, weapons, ammo, and history books in there. I came across this book called Police Rifles that I've about read the ink off the pages. It's right beside my Jim Cirillo books.
Thanks for the comment and kind words. I still have a few "flying ashtrays" (and a decent supply of the evil Black Talons in all calibers). My Colt LW Commander .45 was my last on-duty carry pistol as a Public Safety Director. Hand built by Richard Heinie with a second Colt slide/Barsto Barrel in .38 Super. Heinie is working on fitting a 9x19 barrel to the .38 Super slide to give me a third (cheapest to shoot) caliber for the .45 LWC frame.
Awesome! I'm officially breaking one of the big 10. I've got some serious coveting going on. I love your channel and you're one of the few creators that I feel like if we ever disagreed on something, we could discuss it as men and come away with more knowledge than when we started. That's a rare commodity nowadays. Hope you and yours have a great day.
The laws of physics in fact say common loading of .45 acp and 9x19mm have near identical kinetic energy. The .45 has way more momentum but kinetic energy is the indicator of "shattering power". When you stub your toe on a door frame that is way more inertia transfer in a small area than a .45 but it doesn't blow your toe off because the kinetic energy of the collision is still low. Now if you have a very light .45 bullet like 185 grain then .45 can pull ahead in kinetic energy but such loads have other problems like being extremely velocity sensitive. Too fast and it overexpands, too slow and it acts like FMJ. 9mm is a pretty darn good compromise, especially if you want to use much shorter barrels. PS: hunting bows are so deadly with low kinetic energy as their head is specially designed to get far more tissue cutting for a given amount of KE, hollowpoint bullets all operate on the same mechanism so it's the same effect for given KE.
@@Treblaine I think your last paragraph, the KE of an archery broadhead, illustrates how comparing projectiles by KE is meaningless. The placement and projectile performance are all that matters.
We need to understand that almost All handgun calibers are anemic. 9mm just ticks off more boxes over the other two calibers. When your caliber is weak (and they all are) shot placement is all that matters! And in the real world people miss, so if you have extra shots to place, that one wins.
You make a number of great points. One area in particular is how people always seem to find ways to disparage the 45 as old. Which is completely stupid. Your point about them measuring old tech vs new is a great point.
You are quite the wealth of knowledge sir. From another bullet nerd i appreciate this content. You should put the link to the e books in your comment when they come out so people can access them with ease
Excellent. Simple. Rational. Every ballistics argument I have ever heard for "9mm = 45acp" depends on comparing 9mm modern tech to 45acp old tech. Modern tech to modern tech, especially in pistols, bigger holes > smaller holes. AND I CARRY 9MM!
Yeah excellent….except it’s not true. He is conflating a 45 acp with a 40 s&w. They aren’t even close. The 40 is a more powerful round than the 45 acp with far better terminal performance. As far as muzzle energy 9mm vs 45 acp is the same. 45 acp lacks velocity and penetration through gel or light barrier testing. Lucky gunner did a recent gel test with over 30 self defense ammo. Only about 30% even made the fbi minimum for penetration and expansion (which is terrible). Of those that passed the majority barely past. Basically It’s just inferior to the 9mm. 9mm also has more capacity, and significantly less recoil. New or old tech it makes no difference. 45 acp is the only modern caliber that I have ever heard of were people have been shot in the head and it didn’t penetrate the skull and they lived. Let’s not even talk about the windshield testing which is abysmal. The 45 acp jhp rounds will NOT penetrate a car door either. Atleast not in my experience. There is a reason why almost all LE do not use a 45 acp.
@@KodiakKen over the 40 perhaps because the 40 s&w still holds some advantages over the 9mm. The 45 acp has been obsolete for quite a long time and holds no advantages over the 9mm in every LE testing data I have seen.
@@czwarlord9243 I was taken by your comment that "The 45 acp will NOT penetrate a car door either. Not even close." Can you provide a study that demonstrates that? I would be interested. Thanks!
@@navchaps3449 I’ve actually shot at car doors with a 45 acp and many other calibers. They have even worse penetration than a 9mm. Not even a 40 s&w and 10mm will penetrate a car door all the time with range and self defense ammo loaded in their typical 450-500 ft lbs. Doors have different areas of bracing fyi. The only way to consistently shoot through the door every time requires loadings in the 600+ ft lb range. I did it consistently with a 10mm 200 gr hard cast load. Hard cast in 357 magnum loadings will also penetrate consistently.
Here's the thing - *a more powerful bullet isn't worth dick if you have small hands or can't control the recoil* or your target is more than a few feet away. So unless you're a strong man, you're going to have trouble controlling a .45 _especially_ if you're under stress fearing for you life. The reason the Army develop the M1 Carbine is because when they examined German hospital records of WW1, they could find a single case of casualty caused by a 1911. The M1 is simply easier for most people to shoot accurately and effectively rather than struggling with a hand cannon that isn't accurate beyond a dozen feet or so (for most shooters in most situations).
Couldn’t agree more. The FBI’s testing is seriously flawed. Having spent more than 30 years in LE, I can say that 9mm does not, and will never hold a candle to the .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and especially the .357 Sig.
I carried the 9mm during a 30 year career with a big city police department. After I retired, I tried out a Glock 30 sf (45 acp). The 45 acp is now my go to weapon at home and on the road.
The average muzzle energy for 9mm is around 400 from a 5 inch pistol, for 40s&w and 45acp is around a 100 more. If it is easier to shoot a 9mm for the average civilian, then it makes sense for them to use it. The aim for self defence is preservation of life, and stop the threat. Not everybody wants to obliterate the offender.
