Working up a cheap 223 plinking load using 62gr SS109 military surplus bullets. Powders tested are IMR-4895 and CFE223. UPDATED 09/27/2018 - All links have been removed to comply with RU-vid content policies. www.patreon.com/reloading
@@quiettime6871I was listening to this and thinking, “I know of some primers that are pretty cheap” nope! Still $.06 each and gotta buy 5k. I’d never use that many.
I have never seen good accuracy from these bullets or 55gr fmj. Midway has SP on sale for 7 cents. Every SP I have ever tried is way more accurate. I haven't bought fmj in a while. To me they are a waste of powder,primer and time. When I was a kid the Sierra bullet factory was right down the street from me and I took many tours of it. I remember asking a factory rep why does match rifle ammo have a hollow point? and his answer was essentially this: "You are going to hear all kinds of apocryphal explanations of why match ammo is made like that. Things to due with stability, aerodynamics etc. The real reason that they are made that way has to do with the fundamental difference between match and standard ammo and the difference is simply Q.C.. Both bullets are made using the same equipment and the same materials the difference is the number of rejects based on weight and shape. The small hollow point is simply an artifact left because the jacket is swaged from the rear and brought to as fine a point as materials will allow. the small void is a consequence of the limit to witch lead core can be swaged to a point. The reason the jacket is put on that way instead of from front to rear as in an FMJ is because the FMJs would have a much higher percentage of rejects due to weight and shape and the base geometry would be all over the place which has a bigger effect on accuracy than the nose."
🇦🇺😎👍Cheap 223 projectiles are $185/1000 , primers are between $650-$1000/5000 , and Australian made ADI powder is $395/4 kg 8lb atm ( nothing else to choose from ).We have had no pistol powder for 2 1/2 years. Most factory ammo is up by 40/50% and 223 is drying up fast. Hope that helps
Insane how much things have changed, granted I've been able to find .223 projectiles from various places for probably $13/100, picked up some ss109 for $14/100
The tight groups with green tip or SS109 are a fluke. The steel penetrator in the bullet is the issue. They’re not equally concentric bullet to bullet.
I'm a big fan of your channel. Thanks for all the great job you do. Any chance you start a 7,62x39 serial ? Deep reloading tests are unusual with this ammo and you are the man who can do it !
This is 2024. If you know where to look, projectiles are still priced the same. Primer prices are stable but large rifle primers are nearly nonexistent. Powder costs the most in reloading and it just keeps getting more expensive
Thank you and I am new to reloading 223. Even though you did not get the convergence on the groups, you have a sound method for load dev and I learned a ton watching you on this video. Thanks again, FletchMan
I know I'm late to the party (new subscriber) but my pet load is these bullets loaded in LC brass with CCI mil primers and 25gr IMR 4895. I'm using a White Oak 1:7 twist 18" bbl and I get sub moa all day every day. I threw it together as a plinking load but I'm getting great accuracy. Biggest problem I had developing this load was seating depth. My OAL is around 2.260. 2.250 caused the groups to open to 1.5 moa. Love the channel!
Case fill? After watching your blackout reload where you tried Cream of Wheat and cotton! Fun video, BTW. I realized how important it was to have the powder weight matching the volume of your case. That makes a lot of sense if you've ever seen how shaped charges work. Could that be an issue with these loads?
24grains of h335 in my experience is the most accurate. With cfe223 the best accuracy I could get was 2-3 moa. With the 335 I got between 1.5-2 inch groups
I have been looking into reloading. I live in Cali. So that's why. My AR loves 62 grain. Agulia 556 62g shoots very very well in mine. I have a 1/8 twist barrel. Although now oddly I foung a deal on Winchester 556 in 55 grain and it is doing pretty good. So maybe your twist rate for 62 grain may be the issue if it is 1/7 or 1/9. Just a suggestion from a newbie. Thank you for all your wealth of information. :) :)
I went to the range today and shot the same projectiles and powders. One thing I found was the diameter of these bullets is not consistent. I found sizes from .220, .223 (90% were this) and .224 (about 5%). I also weighed the rounds and the the weighed varied from 62.3 to 62.8. My best groups were 3 inches at 100 yards and I was happy. CFE223 shot better than 4895 in my guns. I also shot some Nosler 77 grain and CFE223 did much better than 4895 and I was getting around 2900 FPS. Hodgdon's website has 223 loading for 53000 psi and 2811 FPS. The best group I got was 1.5 inches and I have shot some severely underloaded Sierra Matchkings and got 3/4 MOA. I am hoping to get the Nosler 77 grain to 2900-2950 accurately with CFE223 and still be sub 60000 psi. My brass was LC 09, primer CCI 41. Too bad Wolf primers have disappeared. I saw quite a few people getting great results with them. The only thing i would suggest with your video is to measure the diameter and see if you have significant variance, sort some by diameter and reshoot using the most accurate load data you have. I think you might be surprised at the results. I would like to know to see how they compare to my measurements. Thanks again for the video.
Johnny's Reloading Bench: From time to time, Midway has sales on bulk projos and are labeled as "Factory blemishes", to the average range plinker such as myself, one couldn't tell the difference between the factory blemishes from new off the shelf projos.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench I purchased 500 M855 off Ebay a short time ago. I weighted them into groups. 62.0, 62.2 (majority) 62.3 and 62.4. I plan on using them with CFE223, have you tested them in respective bullet weights, yet? I'm using the correct 20" barrel 1:7 twist, what they were designed for. Originally these were the bullets designed around the SAW machinegun. I still believe that if bullets are weighted and sorted, they should shoot pretty well. I would expect 1 moa, out of a service rifle scoped. What say you?
finger to tripper placement and breathing can help you more. I see you pull a bit on trigger that is why you are hitting right of target. breathing in and out changed your up and down. since is is a low shock rifle not breathing while shooting might work better for you. These are the things that my Shooting Sergeant worked on with me. 25 yards to 500 yards every round hit right in the kill zone after I learned breathing and finger pull.
I'm sure switching powders, continued later testing and playing a little with the OAL and you could tighten it up some, but honestly I have never got the ss109/m855 to shoot. I have always had much better luck with the 55g m193 bullets for good range/plinking bullets. A cheap barrel shot out seems like a fun idea. Both ballistic advantage and faxon barrels have both shot very very good for me on the inexpensive barrel side of things. A premium Spr/mk12 ish upper to test match loads with in the future would be awesome. Either way thanks again for the great Vids, this channel is the best reloading channel on you tube. Excellent video/audio quality, thorough details of your reloading process, all the editing, testing of the rounds when your done, etc. etc. It all takes a lot of time and work to put it all together and it doesn't go unnoticed. Big thumbs up.
I' not sure you will see this but I wanted to ask you about 223 dies. I'm a straight wall pistol cartridge reloader. This will be my first rifle cartridge, (aside from 450 bushmaster) so some advice regarding the best dies to get for plinking type reloading. I thought if I can stand it I will upgrade later. But where to start? toss me a bone here. Thanks. Big fan.
You must be near where I live. I think I recognize that lady bug. Weird to see it crawling on my screen but actually in the video this time. Dang those things are hard to get rid of.
How important is OAL? Not a reloader so I don’t know, but .006” seems like a lot in any type of precision work. The rotating head on your press seems to flex up a little when seating the bullet. Maybe this is where the variation comes from. Do you have a press that is more rigid? Might try that for more consistency. I would be interested to see the difference. Loving the videos. Keep up the content.
Why don't you use the roll crimp feature in your seating die. That way it seats the bullet and crimps in one stroke instead of fiddling with one more step. I like using the IMR 4895 for my .223 loads and also my .30-06 loads for my M-1 Garand. IMR stands for Improved Military Rifle. Excess resizing of brass work hardens it, and prematurely weakens it and it is prone to cracks in the cases and head separations. If you are going to use the rounds only in one rifle, get a neck sizing die. It will only resize the neck. The brass is fire formed to the exact dimensions of your rifle chamber. If you use the ammo in different rifles or use range pick-ups full length resizing is a must. Also when using military cases you might want to drop back you powder weight 10% the military brass is thicker and the internal dimensions are smaller. Consult your loading manual regarding loading military brass.
I bet the bullet diameter is .223 and not the normal .224. Maybe a thermocouple on the barrel would verify the hypothesis of temperature effects on accuracy of these bullets.
I was getting stuck .223 casings and finally used 800 grit compound on a bore brush with cordless drill and it polished out the die and no stuck cases since. I've got the same RCBS hand priming tool, best one available and no fighting with stuck angled primers, the case just pops out and isn't locked in a shell holder.
Hey dude. That was bewildering groups. I have always got good result from IMR-4895, However I'm using a 1-8 twist N.M barrel 20 inch. This was interesting. Dave.
Johnny's Reloading Bench They say that the tungsten tip can be off center in the tip of those bullets and gyroscopically they fly unstable. However what I found about the video was that load with IMR-4895 shot within an inch. That's good enough to clean your target in the National Match Course of fire @ the 200 yard line. I feel that those Raccoons wouldn't know how dead they were getting hit by those. Defiantly put a wallop on them. The Military put it out that the green penetrator bullets were best used in the SAW for support fire out to 450 yards because of the stability issue. anyway it's good enough for recreational hunting and target shooting in my book.. You should get yourself a Dillon 550B for making your consumable ammo. I find that the Dillon 650 has too many bells and whistles for me. It too is a awesome Machine But not my speed. Dave.
Johnny's Reloading Bench I have to agree, I've loaded Lake City and Armscor 62g. and groups not much under 3" at 100yds. I've tried 6 different powders , primers and c.o.l. True they are cheap, but you can get Hornady 55g. fmj for the same price and they are 100× better.
i have some 200g lee cast powdercoated that i load up for my ar10 that are 17-22cents a round depending on what i want to do the 22 cent load is gas checked and going 2086 avg 10fps sd 18es and can hit to 600 consistently although it drops almost 3 mils fro 500 -600yds the last 100 is starting to dive but it shoots right at an moa ans seated to 2.625 for reliability thats 100% 3031 @35g rem mag primers is the accuracy/distance load if you have a 308 give it a try gas chech and size to seat check powdercoat then resize it keeps the check from occasionally popping off from being seated so deep. did i mention no leading its awsome i think im gonna make a video on it actually
Yea, I agree...I believe he was using an palmetto state barrel with this video? I have a PSA barrel... it shoots just like this one in the video...sometimes good, sometimes bad...Just simply inconsistent. ha
As usual a fine vid. Remember your using a fine weapon , but not a target rifle. An AR with a longer free float barrel would do much better. For the use as a defense weapon close will normally work out well. I like the 223 5.56 because it is cheap to load and flat fun to shoot. Keep up the great videos.
CFE 223 has revolutionized my copper fouling cleaning schedule. Now my cleaning needs no more copper solvents, just a patch wrapped around a brush and soaked in CLP to remove the carbon fouling, with not a trace of copper. Love this CFE stuff (copper fouling eliminator).
I also wet tumble and use the same lube. after prep I run them through a dry tumbler with corn cob and Nufinish. it seems to give it a little better shine and the Nufinish adds a little bit of protection from tarnish that the wet tumbler seems to remove.
I do the same. I dry tumble with walnut (pet store) media and Nufinish. I had my tumbler on a timer but didn't shut off where I set it and it tumbled for over 12 hours, it was so shiny.
Thanks for sharing your method. A couple of things I do differently is use the "Bootleg Case Lube" formula during resizing and "The Worlds Finest Trimmer" for case trimming.
I’m not quite sure how people can expect bench rest accuracy out of a gas gun- With so many moving parts, even Before the bullet leaves the barrel, there is no way the harmonics can be consistent
Just wanted to share some experiences with you on this SS109 bullets. A few years back I bought 500 pieces and tried to reload using them. The result was a disaster. Since then, I tried to use other powders with the same result. I currently have about 300 pieces and concluded that it is not worth the investment of components and time for what one gets. I have also tried commercial cartridges with the same result. My guess is that the bullets are garbage. I am sure they will penetrate a car door or a windshield as they were intended to do, but I wouldn't want to have to engage other targets at more than 100 yards with them. I do not plink with junk. Most of my targets are 3 inches at 300 yards from the bench.
Great video, did you ever wind up getting a decent load using the cfe 223 or any other powder? I have a bunch of these bullets and I'm also having a hard time finding a decent load.
This confirms to me that CFE233 is just too slow burning to work well with lighter bullets unless you load them near max. I have been developing a Hornaday 62gr fmjbt load and the lower charge weights don't group well and the powder leaves a LOT of carbon behind. I will stay with Ramshot TAC for bullets 62gr and up after my supply of CFE223 runs out.
This is my experience as well. Using bulk Hornady 55gn FMJ. Hodgdon claims over 3000fps out of a 24"bbl. I get 2450 out of a 16" AR (tried 2 different ones). That's way slow, even when considering the shorter barrel. Even at a max load of 27.5gn CFE223, I couldn't break 2700 fps. Factory XM193 OTOH, chronoed at 2950.
phishstyx I did find a decent accuracy node finally with 62gr and cfe223, but the velocity is still not on par with factory loads. I wasn't confortable pushing the load beyond published max very far to try and duplicate velocities. In discussing this with a friend who had success in light bullets with cfe223, he was above max and starting to show pressure signs.
It found reasonable accuracy with 69gn SMK and velocity is better with heavy bullets, it's just a completely in appropriate powder for 55gn and under IMO. It's strange that they call it CFE223 because it's actually slower than Varget. I'm just frustrated that I wasted all this time screwing around with it because surely a powder marketed explicitly for 223 would be ideal for loading the most common 223 bullets, but no.
I know this video and some others I've watched recently (June/July, 2019) are a couple of years old but I have to say, your LE6920 hasn't really shot anything well. I have a Del-Ton carbine, 16" M4 barrel, 1:9 that could probably outshoot your Colt on any given day. OK, enough criticism. I really like your channel and the variety of calibers you load for. Great stuff, keep up the good work. 👍
I know this is an older vid but, you are using cheaper brass, cheaper primers, US Mil Spec (never high quality) projectiles........ I dont think it was to bad with the 4895 but, the CFE was ugly.
I like your systematic approach to testing. I may be mistaken but it seems to me that the horizontal (windage ) variations are greater than the vertical (drop) variations. Was it windy when you were at the range? Is the overall mean shape of the groups telling us anything? Just my first impressions - hesitate to jump to any conclusions. Keep up the good work.
It may have been windy but typically when your group does the weather report ( horizontal spread ) is usually due to difference in pressure which can be small deviation in Seating depth your usual looking for the this sign because once you find this sign you’ve found you Depth now you can start playing with. Powder charges I usually play with 00.2 grains increments I learns this from jack nearey he has whole videos explaining this look it up it’s really revealing
Need to trade that colt trash in for a sling shot !!!! LOL No wonder GI's averaged 50,000 rounds per kill in Vietnam. ( I think that is correct). I use AA2230 and it shoot WAYYYYY better than that.
Ok, it’s years later and I’m not sure if you figured it out. I sure didn’t get good accuracy but I’ve purchased, what, 5,000 from Brownells so I have to keep using them. I do have some “real” Norma SS109 coming so maybe I can see if the factory stuff shoots better or if 62 gr. is just a lost cause. Reading up on SS109 I see Europe pumps them up to about 3100 fps as the bullet is “velocity dependent” to become a viable military round. Pump up the volume, I guess.
Johnny you should do a price comparison video ... go back and quote some of these old video prices and then update with current prices and availability. Also, see if you can get your hands on some of the Wolf MSRPs (magnum small rifle primers) and do some tests with those in place of the CCI 41s. I bought A BUNCH of the old Wolf MSRPs from Wideners back in the day when we could pick them up at their warehouse in Johnson City ... I mean a BUNCH because they advertised them as “milspec primers equal-to CCI 41s” .... also, why not try to match SS109 loads? Go for it. Did you ever buy bulk IMR 4895 Radway Green surplus powder from Wideners? Ever tried loading any of that? I’m rambling ... jonesing for updated videos using scarcely available components these days .... primers are definitely not the same costs these days, neither are bullets or powders or brass. Do an updated video brother ... current times, current prices. You DA MAN! Oh, and this is your rifle, this is your gun, this is for killin’, this is for fun ... you know the deal. Oh and small base dies, (most importantly), have to be regularly cleaned in order to mitigate as many stuck cases as possible.
I loaded some old imi ss109 with accurate 2460 to NATO pressure and got really good accuracy. From my tests so far I've figured that cfe is a lot like blc2 and I've gotten terrible accuracy with both. (With 68 and 75 hornady) like 3" groups. The 2460 shot 1" or less at 100yrds, one .33" 5 shot group. May have just been luck. I think those powders work best with hotter loads. When I got to the max for my cfe with the 75 hornady (the load listed in the manual 2900fps) the groups were dramatically better if I remember correctly.
Steve Newsom your experience matches mine. CFE223 only seems to perform near max loads and that makes me nervous about temperature sensitivity when the weather turns really hot.
EMC556 yeah I've thought about that also. Where I shoot it's usually hot weather year round. I try to use extruded powders to avoid the temperature sensitivity, although I'm not sure what effect it really has. I use rl15 or varget for heavy bullets. I've been trying benchmark or arcomp for light but h335 outperforms them with a lot of bullets so I'm not ready to give up the spherical powders just yet.
I found the best load for my gun today after buying a Chrono it goes 1800fps 62 gr Hornady with 25.2 of h335 I never much cared about sub moa until watching this channel. Now it's my new hobbys hobby! Thanks Johnny!
Notice how when you snap on RCBS primer cover it always tend to flip some primers upside down and then you have to open it and cycle repeats... drove me nuts! One day I decided it's enough and just snapped off the middle stem with pair of wire nippers and just put rubber band around it - no more flipped primers!!!
PS. You keep saying, "I'm an idiot!" I'm sure everyone knows you are not an idiot. But! I suffer from dumb mistakes, too. And this is how I make myself feel better..... I just try to remember that most people haven't got a clue how stupid they are. I, on the other hand, do know how stupid I am. Knowing what most people don't, makes me smarter than almost everyone! See how easy that was?
EXCELLENT VIDEO!!!. I have done a lot of research in regards to accuracy with the 62gr fmjbt, and mostly what I have noted is that the ideal twist rate for the 16" bbl would 1.9" and of course that wouldn't be the case using a longer barrel. as for the powder, I haven't heard a lot of brave reviews using CFE .223 for the 62gr fmjbt projos. but I'am sure everyone is going to have different results with propellants, different weather conditions, i.e. altitudes, temperatures etc... With that being said, you've done a great job with your tests,attention to detail, and data collected. I've learned a lot from you. Kind regards! Eric Dee
Ok i am a noob. You stated everything in your video. But salt lake city brass is 5.56 correct? So how close could i copy your load data for .223 brass? Im looking at loading nickel case .223 with 62gr ss109. Any help?
I keep hearing shit about military crimped primers. Guys doing reloading chores w me said no we can’t use them lake city brass, crimped primers. Yeah ok. Well I had no issues popping out the primers w a standard decapping die, no issue putting in new bangers, fired them no problem noticed no difference in performance between them and Winchester federal and hornady hand loads, all 77 grain Mk262 clone attempts at max charge according to Nosler load data
Kinda look's like there is a reason the military pulled them bad boy's and sold em!, they suck every time I have used them,I dig the channel KEEP ON ROCKIN IT JOHNNY !!!...
For the necks you can use Imperial case neck lube, it is graphite based and will not contaminate the powder, while still using the Imperial case sizing wax on the outside of the case. After resizing just wipe the wax with a rag. That's my method, just my .02
24.3 and call her done. The 24.2 shot better in the first test because the gun/barrel was hot. For my heavier bullet AR loads, I have had really good luck with 24.3 grains of IMR-4895. I mainly load the Hornady 75 grain HPBT because it is cheap and shoots really good. My 14.5" AR was sub MOA out to 600 in calm consistent winds with this load. This load also shoots really good in all my AR platforms.
You proved two things, Crappy bullets still shoot crappy and those bullets like to be shot hot. When I first got an AR I was all about green tips. Why? I don't know, maybe because that's what uncle Sam shot in the AR, or I thought the green paint on the tip was pretty, but I got over it later on when I discovered accurate ammo. They shoot and are accurate enough most of the time to do what they are supposed to do. I think I've had my best luck with Varget and maybe Benchmark as far as reloading them. I even went so far as when I bought them bulk and of course they don't have the green tip until they are loaded painting the tips to identify them. But everybody has to try them for themselves and find out they are not magical and the green paint on the tip is not unicorn blood. Why they always fetch a premium price? Don't know the answer to that either, the plain old 55 gr SS109 is a far better bullet and usually quite a bit cheaper. I'm more into the 77 gr. SMK now as it IS long range accurate and pretty wicked when it gets there. I've watched ALL of your videos on duplicating the Black Hills Load with it, Several times now, and that's what I feed both of my one in seven twist AR'S now mostly. Where I live I was able to buy up several pounds of AR Comp powder and haven't looked back. Went with the last load you shot with that combination before you got pressure signs and I get none in either of my rifles so that's my load. Enjoy your videos, keep it up.
Excellent info...however, have you ever thought maybe it's your scale? I see you use a digital scale. I will never use a digital! It take more time...but your RCBS beam scale is way more accurate. Digital scales are not very accurate.
Just going threw some old stuff. And these groups don't seem great bit jot horrible either from a bulk bullet that isn't know for supper accuracy anyways idk I think I would learn to live with a hotter charge of 4895 and just dump a bunch of mags lol
Hmmm. Very good presentation. I just cringe though when I see priming near two pound s if powder inches away. However small, " rapid combustion" in an enclosed space might result in a new skylight in that ceiling. Just a thought.
