5-Axis VERSUS 3-Axis - Which Would You Choose? UMC-500SS or VF-4SS - Haas Automation, Inc. 

The points about the 5-axis being more efficient is fair and valid. Pricing the work-holding vices as though they were a consumable for the job is not really a fair comparison. You can use those vices for years and their cost is tiny compared to the overall cost of the CNC machine. The actual business-plan calculation would be how quickly the bottom-line profit associated with the higher part-efficiency of the 5-axis would take to break-even with the cost difference of buying the 5-axis vs the 3-axis machine, including any secondary costs of staff CAD/CAM training etc. To sell people 5-axis machines, you need to be clear and honest about what thus differential pay-back time is before customers will start to see an actual cost benefit.

I would personally pick a VF4SS with a 4th axis option and one of Jay Pierson's Rotovises. You could machine 5 sides of the part in one setup, load multiple parts in the machine at once, and you could even load stock on pallets while your machine is performing OP1. Your machine cost would be significantly lower and more versatile with its larger machining envelope.

For that simple part, the best decision is 4 axis machine. 5 axis machine deserves more complicated parts.

This was fun to watch and very helpful. Please post more videos like this.

5-axis is great. But you can get two VFs for one UMC. It would have been interesting to run apples to apple cost all the way to the machine. Doesn’t make sense to stop at tooling and working holding. You can probably get one of those VF with a rotary and which would change everything for a fraction of the cost.

I agree with some others that this is a great 4 axis part. The VF4 with an HRT210 and the same vises as the UMC would be a real winner here. There are lots of benefits to 5 axis, but I don't think this is the best example. I appreciate the video though!

I like this video. I'm not a machinist rather an engineer but this helped me gain an understanding of what goes into making such a simple part. You make excellent arguments here and your process is transparent. This comes across as an educational video and not just a money grab promotional to sell expensive 5 axis machines.

I am very please by the reality and honesty of this analysis. Good job. Very good job.

Now cost compare the UMC 500 with the VF-4 with a TRT-210/TRT-310 installed. You get the same capability with the added benefit of more table space on the VF-4. The UMC-500 doesn't become competitive again until you add a pallet changer or exclusively work with parts that require the 400mm platter.

I would love to see more of this type of videos

I think this is a misleading video. Show the VF4 with a high density pallet system / 4th axis tombstone and then factor in walk away time. You could leave that sucker running for 10 hours if you set it up right, night time is free time.

Please make more videos like this , its very valuable tool and i am enjoy watching very much, thanks

Great video and a good eye opener to how a more expensive machine is actually cheaper to run in the long run in terms of its average productivity and payback time. Although as a turner myself, I'd love to see a video explaining the benefits of single vs dual spindle machines.

Interesting to see how you approach the machining process in different ways 👍🙂

you forgot to include the pre op for the umc aka cutting the dovetail opps that actually 3 operations and 3 setups

Horses for courses. It so much depends on jobs. On a 3axis machine you can make anything what you can make on a 5 axis, just might take longer. But big table on a 3 axis allows you to do bigger jobs compare to usually little 5axis tables. Again if you don't have enough 5 axis requirement jobs, it's hard to justify initial extra cost of 5axis..my 2c

Why not setup a bunch of modular vises for half the cost of all the big vises? We have the Saunders workholding setup. Could easily fit 6 or so of those parts on at a time (probably more on that machine) and do them in batches. Less tool changes. Cheaper vises. Cheaper soft jaws. Etc.

Great to see all the cost comparisons on the operating and tooling, where was the cost comparison on the 3 axis machine compared to the 5 axis machine? Looks like someone missed out a 6 figure sum in their maths 🤔

From Kenya 🇰🇪 I love it never looked at it in that angle above all am obsessed with the 5 axis machine I absolutely love it with to own one

Two triangles make a rectangle, so make 2 brackets per billet and split at the end. Four programs on a 3 axis machine all using standard vise jaws plus one 3 pin soft jaw to machine angle. Probably saving around 25% in material.

Too bad the vices are not reusable... Someone should make some reusable ones, seems like a great opportunity !

would like to see compared to a 4th axis also great video

I‘m a SMM owner / operator. Having a rather small machine I can not even imagine having so many workholding devices on my table. The last part that I’ve run required 6 operations and it really pushed me in to thinking that 4th axis is more than required. So my suggestion is that you make the same part on a 4 axis machine. If I could choose, I’d suggest a SMM with a HRT160 4th axis.

Loved the video.

Not sure I like the pricing calculation. Workholding cost sort of assumes the vices etc. are then what - discarded? One would assume they go back into storage for the next job. OTOH the price of the machine is not entered into the whole thing at all, which may make a difference in the operational cost.

Awesome video

The interesting comparison would be to compare the two machines if you were a manufacturer that had to make thousands of these brackets regularly and were looking to invest in new machines and tooling and potentially employees to produce it. The difference now being investing in higher density and customized work holding for 3 axis, invest in a 4th axis solution, or stick with a 5-axis solution. I would bet with a VF4SS machine and a bunch of fixtures, you'd be cost ahead and have the ability for one operator to be pulling out, say, 3 of these every 20 minutes. Or maybe the smart move at some point is to look at a parts loader or pallet pool. There again maybe a 4th axis could do almost everything the 5th axis could, and having one or two cleanup stations on the mill is all it takes to finish the job without going full 5-axis. Lastly maybe a 5th Axis with robot ends up being the best cost for the program even at those volumes. Lastly is the downstream considerations such as accommodatingpart design updates or variations (say they make a new model that is 1" longer on one side) and needing to split production between 2-3 configurations now. And then if in 3 years the design is retired, which equipment has the best versatility down the road? I would love to see this same part revisited in a scenario where the manager of the company that ordered the 100 part run from this video came to their local HFO and said "we have a factory and need XX,000 of these per year, we want to tool up in house, what's the best strategy?" And hen address all the possible options on the table and then discuss those outlier considerations: cleaning, footprint, maintenance, etc.

Seems like you added alot of unnecessary steps to the 3 axis part just to shine more light on the 5 axis machine. Also the work holding part doesn't seem like a realistic comparison.

this was great to see from a pricing standpoint I learned a lot I'm still confined to my sharp 24 12 VMC with a 4 axis and would love a 5 axis if my space and wallet could accommodate. would like to see the master cam or fusion 360 tool path programming for 3 and 5 axis just because this video is making the claim that 5 axis is just as easy to program ( I'm already sold on 5 axis ) thanks for the video!

Forget the setup time saving, it’s all about the walk away time. Stick a pyramid with 3 vices on and only load a few times a day. Then run 5 machines and give yourself a pay raise😁

It is quite unfair to depreciate out a vice in one part… unless that’s all the longer they last

We are looking at the UMC-750SS for our company in the next year or so and this really helped! I just hope I can figure out how to program 5 axis using Fusion 360 HAHA! This will be a HUGE step up from our baby Tormach machines!!

5 axis for prototypes, 3/4 axis for production. :)

What is the cost comparison with the two machines?

The problem with 5 axis is how many can you mount and make like this? You gonna make it one part at a time? Imagine how much you'd save if you properly designed a pallet or smthing for a 3 axis?

So that's a day and $700 saved (not counting fixtures since they are reusable) on a machine that costs just about twice as much, 155k USD VS 90k USD for that 3-axis. Since an operator is still required to load/unload it, let's consider one shift per day (no lights-out work). That 5-axis would have to work about 6 months longer than the 3-axis to make up price difference of the machine. Considering that it is only about 25% faster, that's closer to two years if it was making nothing but these brackets. Of course some jobs are simpler, and some are more complex, so i guess in the end I can see benefits of both machines. What about something in-between, like a 4th axis rotator? Would be interesting to see one of those compared to the results of this video.

So on the 3-axis you are not running 5 parts at a time? Why not take out a finished part every time you have to move a part for the next operation? Then you can go do something else for however it takes to run, like work on another machine.

I understand this is only a Sample part. But, in this scenario I would machine 2 Triangular parts out of 1 piece of material. Not wanting to waste machining time and material making only 1 part at a time. This might help with set-up and fixtures. ( all Machined on a 3 Axis Mill ) In general it was a Good video to help showcase the capabilities of a 5 Axis Mill. I'm sure those who Need a 5 Axis Mill already know they Need a 5 axis Mill 👍

I would like to see this job ran on a VF2SS with an HRT210-HT and then compare the cost of tooling & time vs the UMC500SS as well as the cost of both machines for a comparison..

You're turning a lot of material into chips by not saw cutting the blanks into a triangle .

Exelente video saludos 👍

Nice video as a owner I have think about these things all the time 3 axis or 5 axis along with running a shop, employes. i would not add the work holding we buy that stuff with a new machine it lasts forever .

With the 3 axis version of the part did u run parts in all vises on one cycle or just swap a single individual part along all 5 vises to achieve the total job time ?

What about when you need to machine a large part that won;t fit on a UMC? Get a 5 axis add on for your VF4 and now you can do a lot more. I do a ton of work on my VF4SS with an HRT-210SS 4th axis.

That endmill was twice as long as it needed to be lol

"Hey everybody, John Nelson with Haas Automation here, and today I've got this aluminum bracket part to make." John, buddy, you're already holding it.

Wouldn’t a better comparison be between 3,4, and 5 axis machining set ups?

Okay video, but where’s Mark Terryberry? Love to see more of him. Thanks!

But why are there 5 machining operations on a 3 axis? 1. maching one side of the triangle including the trough hole (leave a step for the radii that will be finished in operation 3) 2. machining the other side of the triangle (automatically probing the part through the hole) 3. Drilling the one hole inkluding the counter bore from the top and and add the 2 little radii 4. Drilling the last 4 holes and milling the other 2 big radii If you use a reverse deburrer there shouldn't be many deburring left. And since you dont have to machine the radii line-by-line the probing in step 2 isn't any slower Sorry if my english is bad, im from Germany and don't know every technical term :D

I can't see charging the same hourly rate for a machine that costs more than double.

OR.. buy two vf2ss's for the same price as a UMC500, and you will have two spindles running - the first doing ops 1,2 and 3,, the 2nd doing ops 4,5 and 6. Cycle time would then be 9 minutes on each over two VF2's compared to 13 on the UMC. the only extra you would be paying is electric and a little extra (duplicate) cutting tools

I think you could do that far faster and with far fewer setups using a trunnion table 4th axis system. One operation to machine the base of the bracket, and one operation to machine the rest. Rotate the part using the a axis and if necessary you could even create a fixture to rotate the part 90 degrees on the trunnion. That would decrease the setups to either 2 or 3 and you wouldn’t be wasting the money on something like a 5 axis machine. Then you could use the 5 axis for something more complicated.

Your video is really useful. I was wondering if you could use a sensor or an accelerometer

I cut a lot of stuff from plate. Whenever it looks like I have some waste on the plate that will allow it, I drop in a soft jaw model that I’ve already done the cam for that uses tools that are always in the mill. For a few min of run time I get a free soft jaw or 2.

I bought V4SS with a TRT210 to get the best of both worlds. 5 axis capability when you need (I use the TRT210 on about 80% of my work) and the large table for those longer jobs.

love this video and everything it shows, defiantly going to show this to my boss, my one question is why program the 5 axis shell mill to mill towards the vise when cleaning up the back of the short side on the bracket, wouldn't programing it to sweep across the y axis be safer?

Never even seen a 5 axis in person lol

Very nice video, but I also expected you to include the maintances and amortisation cost of each machine so it would be more meaningful comparison.

Excellent example as of apple to apple comparison, but my question is how much more expensive the 5 Axis versus 3 Axis VMC is,,,,

4:04 trying to make it look like hard xD

I feel like the cycle time math is messed up here on the VF4. The point in having multiple vises in there should let you run all 5 stations per cycle start, which will cut down on tool change times. The math is no longer as straight forward since you need to start 4 parts and finish 4 parts without all stations loaded up, so of the 100 parts you make, you can only run all 5 stations for about 92 parts, but that's still a lot of tool changes saved. That's also hands-off time you can spend doing other things around the shop. I also agree with the others here saying its a bit of disingenuous math depreciating the cost of those vises for a single job. Also did you not add the cost of the dovetail cutter to the UMC's tooling costs? I saw the 3" shell mill and back chamfer tool, but not the dovetail cutter

Thank you! but I think we need to add somehow de price difference between de 3 axis and the 5 axis machine

how about lathe? does sub-spindle can do this too? or save more time?

Hmm i’m not sure if this part is a fair part to try it on a 3 axis mill, looks more something for a 5 axis. I would suspect it would make a lot more sense to use the 3 axis for something like a mold etc.

Have seen many videos on RU-vid 3axis,4axis,5axis. Make a video on 4+1 axis that how can we run 4axis simultaneously while 1axis is stop

so a machine with a gripper to flip the metal part and place it in the vise, would be smart?

Where is the waste bin for those 3 vises? Investment in workholding is not a running cost.

How much tool overhang affect?

me before watching: 5 or course thats a stupid question because you need to get on more than one side of the part nerds: actually there are no stupid questions me: there are but they say no because they want to make you feel good also me: proper tools, you press green for go and be done with it. my boss when buying machines: but they cost money me: or you could try to get a better driver than me me after watching the video: exactly what i said for haas going full decked umc is not expensive compared to fiddle around with 3 or 4 axis setups. Proper is always better than fiddle. With anything.

Is it possible to learn the same work set-up strategy by using non-commercial hobby machines? I graduated from a Tech school but have no chance to practice on professional machines, likewise as soon as my classes were complete....the ability to use MASTERCAM to practice my newly acquired design and toolpath skills were suddenly gone. I woud like to start a small boat business since many parts are designed and fabricated with CNC.... Any suggestions?

That UMC-500SS cost 165K. Who bills $80 an hour for 5 Axis work? more like $175.00. I could run that part in 2 ops in about 14-15 minutes , on a VF2SS with a HRT210 that cost 80K for $80 per hour

7:16 all time you invest making good setup. some one who just know "green button" throw parts

Serious question. As a 3 axis machinist that does all my own programming for 1 off parts, I never prove a program before running. We just can't afford to run everything twice. Do all 5 axis operators dry run every program or do you also just have to have confidence in the CAM software?

You skipped one tiny detail- price difference between 3 and 5 axis machine. How many brackets would you have to make on 5 axis machine just to break even?

If you set up 5 vices, use them. Run program 1 to 5 once the vices are full. 🤷‍♂️

3-axis🥀🥰

Epic

That part is 2 ops on a 3+1 axis mill. Op1 4 sides on the rotary and Op 2 in a vise on it's side. Done! FIVE vises and setups...come on man.

Let’s goo

1 установ на 5 осях, 2 установ на 3 осях. подготовка перед первым установом тоже на 3 осях . я выбираю комбинированный способ

Now if Haas would only develop a Cad Cam software specifically for their machines that was affordable and good!! They would sell a lot more 5 axis machines

16:19 5 axis cost allmost 50% more i mean 100% 2x

5axis should win,, but there is alot to save in workholding cost if you only use one vise in the VF-4SS. You still have the loading, but you run all parts OP1, then all OP2, and so on. Downside is that someone needs so stand aside changing parts. But there would be a more honest comparasion, who I think the 5ax would still win. Then we come to what the machine-cost is. But thats another story. This movie was made to sell 5axis machines. Not take times.

❤️✌️

Maintenance cost for 5 axis vs 3axis, plus mastercam seat that includes 5 axis machining were curiously not included in these prices.

Why not cut the square into two triangles?

why dont Haas machines have potentiometers for feedoverride? Pushing buttons only is kinda dumb imo

Wants 5axis machine program

why not just buy one vice and make the jigs for the different axis?

6:04 lotsa time even have all measuring equipment i do loss without

Where does someone find this 80/hr shop pay at???

6:28 yes first test run propably only correct but what if boss sell that part 146? lol you need do all those before faster so make some profit or there is no price its just how fast machine cut thats cost for boss xD there is no tool cost calculated if not have tool then make part tool that have

Yes, but make the cheapskates understand that they want you to finish a part like this in 1.5 hours, on a 3-axis, saddleless machine and a single press. Because it is made of aluminum and that is why the machine cuts it right away. They don't consider anything they say in the video and if you tell them they get angry. Because according to costs and time should be saved. As if the machine was going to do everything by itself (Now with a 5-axis machine, go figure! No, put your hands up!) It's all a debate but very good video.

That is much interesting and informative video But on the other side i would like say Machinist job is hard to find if you make this type of video The number of job for machinist deceased down..

Without the life time portfolio of the parts to be machined such a comparizon is not correct. Suppose, you have only this one part and very large amount of simple 3D requiring parts...

What is the background music?

Currency hurt the system or export &import system,think

Not sure I agree with the numbers. First off you could have done that job with 3 vises max. Including the cost of the vises on the job also makes no sense. If you assume you already have vises available. If you include the vises as startup on the 3 axis you need to include the CAD/CAM software in the 5th axis machine. As well as the fee for the program posting software which is very expensive. Other issues exist as well but it's not a very good comparison. Seems like a sales pitch geared towards financing departments with no clue how to machine.

I want a Polo shirt like he has.

If it’s only for one pc to do I’d choose the 5axis if its for production I’d choose the 5axis. If it’s just for fun to show off I’d choose the 5axis.