140gr Hornady SST with Hodgdon Varget and Hodgdon Superformance in 6.5 Creedmoor. UPDATED 09/27/2018 - All links have been removed to comply with RU-vid content policies. www.patreon.com/reloading
I shoot a savage model 10 tactical with a 24” hbar and a 1:9.5 twist. The load I shoot is the 143 gr ELDX with 47.5 gr of superformance with an AOL of 2.835 pumping out at 2980, yes it’s over max but I’ve shot it and can’t see any major pressure signs a few hard strikes and some shiny spots, but my gun absolutely loves them. Also my standard deviations haven’t been over 8 FPS
That’s what slow powders do watch stable that stuff has a preasure limit varget just max it out Still say Rl 23 would work less than 22 same results lower the preasure
The Superformance works awesome with the 127gr Barnes LRX. I wouldn't even consider using anything but Barnes bullets. I've tried developing loads as tested on your video and can't get either of these bullets to group. The magic was with the Barnes bullets!
Johnny I just found your videos a couple of days ago I have been bieng watching them you do a great job and you have been working on some vary similar loads as I have both in the 223 and also the 6.5 creedmoor. I have been working on loads with the 143 eld - x and superformance and have loaded up to the max of 44.7 grs and haven't seen any signs of over pressure this seems like a totaly different powder the way that it burns . I did however load up some Varget I had sitting there from working on my 223 loads and like you said I thought the Hornady manual was pretty conservative as far as loads go so I loaded up 5 of them at 36.4 grs. Varget basically to foul and warm up the barrel for the superformance loads I have been working on. I shot them and checked the brass there wasn't much sign on the base of the shell just a little shine of the ejector but what I did find when I checked the diameter of the base of the cases they had stretched almost .003 over what the hottest superformance loads I had shot. So the Varget was definitely making some pressure. I am new to loading so I don't know all the pressure signs but when I checked the diameter of the brass I was surprised to find that. Also I noticed that you changed your chronographs from the Caldwell to the magneto speed was there a reason or a preference for that ? I am looking to buy one just not sure which . Great videos keep up the good work !
have you considered using the labradar chronograph? I wonder if that would be a useful tool in your toolbox for accuracy and velocity at the same time. Again, thank you for all the effort you put into your channel. I'm learning things and having fun!
Varget works extremely well in my 6.5 CM with Lapua brass and smaller bullets such as the 95 grain V-Max and the Sierra 100 grain HPBT. In fact, out of 8 test groups with the V-MAX ranging from 38.9 to 41.0, 7 were sub-moa and 4 of those had a single digit SD. 40.7 grains produced a clover leaf group measured at .385" and an SD of 6. The same load works almost as good with the 100 grain Sierra. So I highly recommend Varget with the smaller bullets. I tried IMR 4831 with the 140 grain SST and tested 11 groups ranging from 40.0 to 43.0 grains. Note that the COAL was a whopping 2.815" with CCI 400 primers and Lapua brass. 6 of the 11 groups were sub-moa and 6 had single digit SDs. 42.4 grains averaged 2641 fps in my 24" Bartlein barrel. 5-shot group measured .693" and had an ES of 8 and SD of 3.8. There were no pressure signs at 43.0 grains where I got a .755" group that averaged 2686 fps with an SD of 11.4. Note that 43.0 was not a compressed load and I still had a little case capacity left.
I definitely should have mentioned that! The lighter the bullets, the more appropriate Varget gets. No doubt about it. I've been debating whether to try IMR 4831. It's another powder that I've never used before. Seems like it should be perfect for Creedmoor.
I had used IMR 4831 in a .243 Win with outstanding results before I re-barreled it to 6.5 CM. Since I had an 8 pound jug sitting on the shelf I decided to try it in the 6.5 CM. There was no Hornady load data for IMR 4831 and 6.5 CM until they published data for the 147 grain ELD-M. Min: 35.2g/2300fps - Max: 42.2g/2650fps. Berger lists IMR 4831 data for their 140 grain bullets (Min: 37.0/2422 - Max: 41.0/2665). The only problem with IMR 4831 is if you want to seat to the cannelure on the SST. Case would be way too full.
I started getting sticky bolt at 42.0 with superformance with 140 Gr nosler accubond. Brass looked alright. Hodgdon’s max was less than sierra’s start. Glad I stated with the more conservative data.
Nice videos. I'm glad I found your channel. Question, I just ordered a Tikka 6.5 with the 24" barrel. What powder should I look at being H4350 is non existent? I'm even finding Reloder 17 "sold out" in most places. I have some Varget and RE-15 from loading for my 223. I'll try them but I'm still looking for other options.
The groups string vertically because the muzzle is rising during recoil as clearly shown in the video. Try installing the SilencerCo Omega muzzle break on the end of the suppressor and remove the chronograph from the muzzle. The muzzle blast from the suppressor break hitting the chronograph would be an issue. A properly tuned rifle will recoil straight back. The best group fired showed less muzzle rise. The rifle tuning process is clearly explained in the MarkandSam RU-vid videos on Extreme Long Range shooting.Great job on reloading!
Thanks for the response Johnny. I have the same rifle, suppressor, reloading equipment, and process as you have. I achieve much better accuracy results from my loads. I use Quick Load software therefore I am not guessing at best loads and powders. Quick Load recommends Reloder 26 for 6.5 Creedmore for highest velocity which is what you discovered in your testing. I use a Caldwell chronograph 12 feet from the muzzle. I use a large heavy sand bag for a front rest and sand bag on rear as it is the same technique required by Shooting Times/Guns and Ammo magazine editors for accuracy testing. The large heavy sand bad on the front with the stock wedged down into the bag reduces muzzle rise. I can achieve 1/4 MOA groups with this approach. It would be interesting to add a grid behind the barrel while shooting in your videos to show muzzle rise. The chrono attached to the muzzle has to go. It changes POI and accuracy since it impacts barrel harmonics.
Leroy Jenkins you need to watch the other videos with this rifle where he tests the whole setup with plain barrel, just suppressor, just chrono, muzzle break with suppressor, and the whole kit. Accuracy was NOT changed, only point of impact was. As long as the results are consistent, the rest is moot really. And regards to your gun/ammo/suppressor shooting better groups doesn't mean his technique is to fault, there are way more variables at play than just the chronograph or any other single item.....
the MarkandSam vids are great. No beating around the bush with what they find works and doesn't work for them! Straight up how it goes with the testing/development.
Good reason to use Varget is it is available over some others. With superformance if it is a ball powder wouldn’t you lose velocity with the low temperatures? That combined with the shorter barrel should make sense right?
41-42 grains of superformance might be a velocity accuracy node? Playing around in that area could let you tune the load while keeping the same velocity in various conditions which produces better accuracy.
Just a thought and something I personally could really appreciate and probably others would too....Is a summery video of all that you have learned from all this reloading and testing so far...Not a specific caliber ,but just all the important and not so important steps in hand loading rifle ammo...Idk ,just a thought and there may be plenty of those types of videos out there but for those that have been following your channel and your ways, it would be nice to see your do's and don't's and your techniques and what you've learned in summary...Your summary being a 50 minute video though (; Maybe you've thought about that already
When looking at your targets u have a measurement of “ATC”, again I’m relatively new to reloading, what does this stand for what are u measuring? As before thank for your patience.
So I loaded some 6.5 creedmore with varget and I did a .31” group with 2620 FPS and the same bullet out of a 22” barrel on a rem 700 how much better can it get and all that I got out of a hornady case with a Remington 9 1/2 and 37gr of varget with 140gr hornady sst and the primer looked just fine
Curios to know did you like the varget powder in the 140 grain? Like you mentioned about the varget in other rifles are good. Just getting started reloading the 6.5 creedmoor. Your opinion matters, like your videos!!
The shift in the first shot vs the others I would assume is the suppressor not having gases in it on the first round. The second round has the burned gases therefore changes the pressures. I would take it off and shoot a clean cold bore and a dirty cold bore, followed by two more shots on two different days. I would bet that you see something different. Just my $0.02 of what could be causing that shift.
superformance is Super in the heavier bullets, that what is was made for like 147 gr, 150 gr SMK and superb hunting with Hornady InterLock 6.5mm 160 Grain bullets (chrono 2612 ft/s). Small Rifle Magnum Primers might be reason your SD was so jumpy, the case was designed for large Rifle Primers vs a violent detonation with magnums.
That TC Compass is working great! I'll be grabbing one soon. Also I really like that group measurement your adding, it gives a good visual. Would you mind if I ask what program that is?
How much time do you spend between shots? How much btwn groups? Do you use the Chamber Chiller btwn shots or just groups? Asking because I have this same exact setup. I dont reload, but using match ammo I can usually get btwn .89" and 1.5" 3-shot groups.
I get consistent .5 MOA groups with 140 SST and 43.6 Superformance. I'm using Hornady neck sized brass and WLR primers out of a Savage Axis II heavy 22" barrel. Velocity is in the low 2600s with a SD of 8-10.
I can't bring myself to spend for Berger and other high price bullets when I know I can work up really tight loads with SSTs. I forgot to mention that my OAL for the 140 SST is 2.80". I get .3 to .4 MOA groups in my Axis II and my Ruger American Predator with 123 SST over 42.5 grains of Hybrid 100v. OAL for that load is 2.76". I can get close to that accuracy with H4350, Norma URP and RL17, but not quite as good.
Man!..... These results are identical to mine!.... I have never been able to get an sst to group at anything but low velocities. Not saying these are bad groups, but 2500 f.p.s. is still a little slow. I'd love to see what kind of safe speeds you can get out of the 22" barrel with both of these powders. Also how well the sst performs for you. Also curious what the true c.o.a.l. is when sitting 0.020 off the lands in your rig. I've got about a heavy 3/16" showing below the cannelure when loaded to 0.020. Sst might like some jumping!!... well off to the deer woods for some vittles, but thanks a ton for fulfilling my paper punching, load development needs once again!!!
I'll be pushing harder with Superformance, without a doubt. I'll also use the rest of these SST's to test at higher velocities. Good luck in the deer woods!
You aren't putting out new videos, so I'm re-watching all the old ones. I bought a TC in 6.5 and I'm loading for it. I'm hoping you put out a new video before I have to buy a TC in 300WM and start loading for it too.
Hi Johnny thanks for info brother have you used varget I have 2 pounds of might as well use also H4350 for Hornady 140 BTHP if so what is best charge and C.O.A.L. I have a AR-10 barreled in 6.5 22" 1/8 twist thanks brother
Hey Johnny, I have the same rifle, in the same caliber, you have a lot of videos with this rifle...I was wondering what recipe gave you the best grouping. I live in CA...so for hunting, I have to use all copper bullets and I tend to use Hornady....If you would be so kind as to let me know what you use...I appreciate your time.
Referring back to this video, after I just did new load development with 140gr. ELD-Match and SuperFormance Powder. Wanted to do a Comparison. I as well am shooting the Same TC Compass in 6.5CM. Started at 41.5gr and worked up to 44.5gr. Working up in .3gr increments. I have nearly the same velocities and S.D's. I did find a NODE at 42.4gr-43.0gr. The crazy thing I got though.... Is all 10 of the 5 shot groups were .250-.750 inch grouping. All at 100yds. The majority were all .255in. This powder is very consistent. But velocity is a bit low. I wish the TC had a few more inches on her. But I'm happy with the results.
Need help love your channel btw. I cannot find any 4350 or RL 26 powders, i have plenty of win760 but i cannot find any load data to use win760 with the hornady 147gr eldm, can you help please
Why is some 6.5 Creedmoor brass available in both Small and Large Primer? Can you use the same powder charges with either small or large primer cases or is there separate data based on the primer size?
The brass cases with small primer pockets can handle more pressure without enlarging (more metal around). That's the same thing with the 6.5x47 Lapua, those cartridges are designed to handle more pressure than the .308 win or .260 rem, that's why they have small primer pockets. In fact even for the .308 win Lapua provides some brass with small primer pockets especially made for Palma competitons : .308 Palma. They use it because these competitors can only use the .308 win, so they need to get as much velocity as they can to win at 1000 yards.
Good video as always I’ve been watching your videos that pertain to the calibers I own but finally subscribed I like Superformance I use it in my Aero Precision 22” AR10 6.5CM and using 44.3 grains I was averaging 2696 FPS w/ a sd of 7 and my best group 3/16” I am @ 5440ft elevation 69f . I tried 44.2-44.4 but 44.3 was the load that shot the best out of my rifle as well I really enjoyed your BH mk .223 77gr SMK video you should check out shooters world match rifle powder I load 77gr SMKs w/25gr and avg 2845.5fps w/sd of 16.5 and.33” groups out of a Wilson Combat 20” fluted Super Sniper barrel non threaded w/11degree target crown thx keep up the good work
Man, I'm here to tell ya... Your videos are top notch and well executed but I really miss the poster board , it may sound childish but for me it was the highlight, the see all and tell all, the good, bad and the ugly. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be.
I gave up on it. Couldn't find anything terribly consistent. It's a really high velocity powder in longer barrels but I think it's mostly Hornady marketing wank to make it sound awesome.
I know it's only a two inch difference but doesn't Hornady test on 24" barrels? Maybe they're not embellishing that badly because superformance is slow burning right?
I would of liked to have seen the varget pushed a little higher into the 36gr area like 36.6-36.8, IMHO Varget shoots best with more powder in the case
I've been watching your videos for a couple of months and I'm curious what kind of velocity you could get out of the 6.5 creedmoor with a 140gr hornady otm bullet on top of 39.5gr of IMR 4166 I have been getting 1/2in groups with that load at 100yds but I don't have a crony
Good work, Mr. Bench. Good groups, but not as good as I was expecting. I got good groups in.30-06 with Sierra Pro Hunters in 180 grain with IMR 4046. I’m still learning, been at this a year now. I’m going into .223 and .270 Win. .30-30 and .35 Remington. Guess you can tell, I’m a hunter first, then shoot.
jimhans1 yea, 4064. Hey, I said I’m still learning.🤣😅🤠😎 That was the first Powder I bought, because it was listed for so many cartridges in my manuals.
I use this bullet in my 6.5 tikka tac A1 CM. I use Reloas Swiss RS62...similar to h4350. Using small primer lapua brass I load 43.6gr for 2600fps and ragged one hole groups at 100yds using murom kvb-223M primers. I set the bullet to jump 20thou. The cannelure is just the jacket crimp for the bullet interlock so it doesn't matter where it sits on the seated bullet. Your velocities are lower than liad data not due to the barrel by the way. You've missed a really important issue which is load data is usually derived by powder manufacturers using LARGE primer brass. Small primer has a lower ignition energy which affects speed of initial burn resulting in about 100fps under what you get uding lr brass so lower pressure. That is why you NEVER use a load developed using small primer brass in large primer brass. Classic example is 42gr h4350 under a 139 scenar in Lrp brass gives about 2700fps. It takes 1.5 gr more in srp brass so 43.5gr for the same MV...barrel and primer depending. Please anyone reading this do NOT go straight to these loads in ypur rifle...start low and work up. Just be aware for safety that srp and lrp brass are not interchangable for load data due to the differences in primer ignition energy and that most load data is stipulated for large primer.
Hornady factory loads with Superformance vs Hornady load manual data are not even close. They must be going well over load data max to reach velocities numbers they claim.
So just an observation but don't you think group testing should be done without the chrono? Also why use a crappy scale when we know you have better ones for a precision cartridge?
I tested the groups with and without chronograph in earlier videos with the Compass and did not find it made much difference. As for the scale, ktmracer358 covered it well enough.
Accuracy testing with a Magnetospeed hanging on the barrel is not very representative. You should mount the Magnetospeed to the stock (or a stock extension) so it doesn't influence barrel dynamics if you want velocity and accuracy at the same time. I use an Oehler 35P. Accurate, repeatable, and no influence on barrel dynamics. More effort to set up and additional cost, so it depends on what your testing goals are.
In one of his recent videos moparmadman was trying to find accuracy nodes by measuring the velocity. How it is supposed to work is when you find that you have added powder and you see that the velocity did not change much, that is a node. The 6.5 guys have a better explanation than me. Anyway, I thing you found an accuracy node when your Varget load stepped up by a grain and the velocity moved only 7 fps.
Yep. More powder doesn't always mean faster. Check out some testing I did with 168 SMK's and IMR4166. Once I get over 44.1 grains the MV actually goes down!
I saw Moparmadman's video and I've seen the 6.5 Guys video in the past, and I plan to do some similar testing myself. I have to be honest...I'm going in skeptical to that whole concept. We've done a whole lot of charts on this channel and I've never really observed the obvious "flat spots" that method is looking for. When I test it myself I'll go in with an open mind and try to give it a fair shot, but it needs to be obvious and repeatable. We'll see how it goes! In the specific case of this video, we were shooting in full 1 grain steps! That's what really blew my mind! We occasionally see it when shooting .2 or .3 increments, but it took me by surprise here.
I tried to post a pastebin link and youtube took it out.... here's the thread on another forum: forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/trouble-with-a-newly-build-308-ar10.3940473/
That "flat spot" test just seems to get you into the ball park of how much load to use. Then, you still have to fine tune to load amount and the length to load at. I have never tried to replicate that test but have occasionally noted that increasing the powder charge did not make much increase in the velocity. At least now I know why that was happening.
No but the 6.5 likes the 4350 burn range and 4451 falls in that burn speed so apples to apples my friend. And whutch 190 did you shoot in your 300 win I live the 300 win
4451 is supposed to be decent and I'm picking some up but it's not what I meant. You brought up 3006 was my point. On that day it was Nosler Trophy out of a Weatherby Accumark but anything from HSM to Hornady. I must try Black Hills because a couple weeks ago I was sighting in someone's Rem700 Win Mag with Black Hills 190 and they were lasers. I reload and have a new custom 300 win mag being built on a Bighorn TL3 action so I'll pick up some Black Hills for brass and screwing around to 1500yds or so.
Yea. I just meant that's tho only caliber that I had tried it in but yea I would like to try the sierra 190 I handload about everything g other than for the 9mm. Thanks for the advise
I had some erratic numbers with these at the manual COAL and 41.5 gr H4350, CCI 250 Primers. Velocity jumped from 2680 to 2800 over 5 shots, very bad SD and ES. It sped up every shot. Might back off that max charge. Almost blew my face off JRB style.
I would really like to see hornady 129GMX. I have been using these for 5 years now on caribou and they do an amazing job both at the range and on game. 1 shot one kill. I was also able to do .588 @ 300yards using just a sandbag up front as a rest. I am using a 6.5 creedmoor in the ruger American predator rifle. GREAT bullets. I have dies and brass/bullets but I haven't reloaded myself as this is the best shooting gun I own and its using factory ammo and I haven't ran out of the bullets I bought yet. I am also using a Vortex 3x9 diamondback scope with vortex high rings. I prefer this bullet over the Full Boar as it is more accurate in my specific rifle. www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/6-5-creedmoor-120-gr-gmx-superformance#!/
Ya pet load if you want to blow your face off! 37 Grains is max load on that bullet weight. I'm sure you are blowing out primers at 40 Grains! No one try this very dangerous load!
