@@taasch2505 He came away from a motorcycle crash with a back injury that causes chronic pain and retired from his other online activities two years ago to focus on more important things in life. Putting family first and stepping away from the hustle and bustle online after a bad accident is never a bad thing and I wish him well.
Sorry that this was your last video. Thank you for all of the research that you brought us and I hope that everything went as well as possible for you after this video.
@@sigspearthumb1056 he was alluding to the fact that he may have some health issues. In other words he wasn't coming right out and saying I've got health issues.
As one of the few people on youtube who realize that most people conceal carry small handguns, your analysis of different ammo and how they perform in a 3" barrel gun is indispensable to us. I am a bit surprised you don't have more subs, so I'll be a +1
@@lesnjeffsc I mean it did pretty well, I have a couple boxes of it myself, but it definitely wouldn't be my first choice. I wouldn't even put it in my top 10, especially considering that it costs about the same as HSTs these days. He probably bought a bunch back when Walmart sold handgun ammo and just never rotated out his old carry ammo.
Id like to see you come back and test the different winner circle ammo out of different barrel lengths. At least 4" & 4.5" barrels. This series was fantastic. Would be cool to see the non expanding defensive rounds thrown in the mix and measure wound cavities. Underwood extreme defender, black hills honey badger ect.
Thanks for putting all that work into this! I’d love to see a series from a 4” barrel like a Glock 19 or SIG P320C but I think this information gives me a good baseline. Thank you, sir!
Glad you finished the test. I know you've had some health issues, but it appears that you have fallen away like TNOUTDOORS9. It's a shame, as both of you did excellent, informative videos. You both been missed, and there hasn't been any worthy successors that I'm aware of. If anyone knows of one, please advise.
Are you familiar with Lucky Gunner's ballistic gel testing? They use Clear Ballistics in theirs, so I suppose their results come with the same limitations that ShootingTheBull410 disclaims about his old tests. But I think one could at least say the tests have internal consistency, regardless of how they would compare to calibrated gelatin. I have very little academic or practical education in ballistic science so I'm not really qualified to speak on all that. www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
Im with you 100%, TNOD9 & This channel are the best and have both disappeared unfortunately. I understand for now about ammo availability/price but even before the insanity they'd both not made anything in some time as far as i know.
Your tests were all top notch, I appreciate all the time and effort that went into this series and so glad to see you back on RU-vid. Your videos influenced my ammo buying decisions for all my pistols, Thank you so much and God Bless
Thank you for getting this wrapped up! It’s amazing who just half an inch of barrel length effects the results. From 4”-4.5” service size to Lucky Gunner’s 3.5” M&P Compact showed allot. And now your more realistic barrel length of 3” REALLY opened my eyes.
Well done sir! I can't thank you enough for ALL your hard work, effort and time that was involved in this and all your other tests for our benefit. I hope I speak for everyone who has watched any of your videos when I say we appreciate your honesty in conducting this test to see which was best. I have to say on your "winner" I'm a bit biased towards Federal HST's (hydra-shok) since I have religiously used these for years. Thank you again and I can't wait for your next series (I hope).
Oh yes I agree. My Sig P320 compact (3.9" barrel) loves the HST's in 147gr standard pressure, which I carry, and I believe it performs better than all the other HST's imo. I bought 8 boxes of 50 per box online for almost the same price of a box of 20..I was able to see the performance, reliability, and consistency at a way lower cost than buying them in the 20 round boxes! I recently looked for them and I can't find them anymore for civilians. It says on each box that the boxes of 50 are for law enforcement only and the site I bought from now asks for proof. I say BS! We should get the same buying opportunity as anyone else! Glad I bought them when I did...
@@OldSolidSnake Try online at SGAmmo and TargetSportsUSA. That's where I get all my ammo and I bought some HSTs about a month ago, 50-rd boxes for $30. Shipping isn't bad if you order several boxes at a time; if you buy a case it's free at TS. They still sell them to everyone, not just LEO.
@@OldSolidSnake Glad to pass on the info. SGA and TS used to sell them for $20/box of 50, but last fall they went up to $30. Still much, much cheaper than buying the little 20-rd boxes locally. I hope they don't stop selling to non-LEO; I know many online sellers now require LE credentials. Guess I need to order a few more just in case.
Wow... almost another year and nothing from STB410. My thoughts are with you and thanks for all of the ballistic knowledge you given us. I hope you and your family are doing well.
Oh, and while am at it, posting messages, etc,... I will NOT be changing my carry ammo from Federal HST to the new Winchester ammo even given your evidence. Here is why. 1. Most police forces, federal agents, etc, etc, etc...today, use either HST's or Speer Gold Dots. 2. If a court trial were ever to happen, knowing that you use the exact same ammo that law enforcement uses is a big +! 3. I really like the flower HST's make... (LOL) Again, my best wishes to you and yours.
This has been a long series and the care and thoughtfulness of your testing is commended. Like a huge number of others, I carry a short-barreled 9mm and your testing is very relevant to that situation. Some of the results were surprising, both good and bad, which is great! Knowledge is power.I reload my own self-defense rounds and the velocity information and detailed expansion analyses have given me good baseline information for developing my recipes.Much appreciated!!! Thanks!!!
We appreciate all the time and effort you put into these tests. It helps a lot of us select the best self defense rounds. I personally went with the 147 HST (standard)
Some friends were discussing short barrel 9 & 45 ammo this morning and someone brought up your name. I've watched a handful so far. Totally enjoying your reviews. Excellent work!
Ive been carrying the defend rounds since the initial testing. I waa sold then, im sold still. Yes HSTs are great rounds but i want that extra penetration without over penetration. Great series, so happy you and your wife are doung well. God bless.
Imagine how dumb these comments will look when it's no longer "cool" to say this? Lol. As if it matters how quickly you click on a video that will be posted for years/decades.
Like others, I’d like to see the 147 HST redone in real gel as well as the 124+P Gold Dot. They both originally appeared to do better than either of what you tested in this video. Regardless, it would be A+ if you did a 10mm series. Now that Gold Dot, HST, Winchester Defend and Critical Duty are all available in 10mm it would make for a short and simple but very popular ammoquest.
The 147s are heavier, but lack the velocity to reliably expand. As a result, they tend to over penetrate. Note that the tests were standardized over four metrics; penetration and expansion in bare gel, and penetration and expansion with demin. They do not take into account one-stop shots, failures to stop or lethality.
@@ItsEverythingElse The HST has since been neutered in it's newer rendition and I wouldn't personally trust it out of a 3" barrel. It's got less expansion (maybe a harder core?) and more penetration which is a great trade off IMO, but the new 147 won't reach 1000fps out of a 4" barrel and out of 3" barrels it's basically a lightweight, smaller diameter 45 acp. The 124 hst is the standard for all 3" barreled guns.
Most detail oriented and thorough analysis. I love it when the modern RU-vidrs discount his information. Even though they are shooting the same bullets. The modern breed of RU-vidrs somehow believe their results are more relevant than his. (Probably because they did the test) The more recent youtubers draw their conclusions from non -standard gel blocks, with a "close enough" attitude toward the details such as temperature, bullets shot per type, shooting 2-5 rounds into a gel block and drawing conclusions. I will take this guys info. .....Over any "TOOL shooting at TARGETS"
Absolutely one of the best and most extensive defense ammo tests that I've seen. I choose the HST for performance and record in actual shootings. I also still have an axe to grind with Winchester over their insistence that civilian lives aren't worth as much as police with regard to their ridiculous restriction of Ranger ammo to law enforcement only.
Federal does the same thing, their HST 124+P, 147, and (now-discontinued) 147+P are only sold to law enforcement. We have been fortunate to find dealers who will bend the rules and sell to civilians anyway, but Federal is clamping down on that. As for the record in actual shootings -- HST has been an outstanding performer for law enforcement agencies, I have never heard of any agency complain about it. But then again, they're generally using 4.6" barrel G17s or 4"-barrel Springfield XDs or some other full-size weapon. But I am unaware of there being any record of its performance in 3" pistols in actual shootings? That's why I went through the process to test -- because there was no reliable data (that I know of) regarding performance in short-barrel pistols.
I carry the Winchester Defend because of your original review. A huge plus that totally sold me on the round was the very affordable, ballistic matched Train rounds. When I practice, I get the most accuracy from this product vs any other round I shoot. Thanks for all the work you've done to test out all these products.
I have to say... I thoroughly enjoy this journey and I wish you would make more videos... I love the knowledgeable, friendly and concise aspect of your work...
Incredibly fun series of vids that finally brought the winner, had tremendous fun and education at the same time, thx man, keep up with creating these super awesome videos. How do I find your patreon channel to see if I could contribute some cash to good cause? Cheers
Outstanding! Glad you were able to finish the quest! Thanks for all your hard work, HST's are my carry round but I will be looking for some Winchesters to see how my pistol likes them.
Is there room for the Winchester to expand at higher velocities? I am not sure. The base of the petals looks to have already have been obtained in these tests. How is it going to expand past the base of the petals? Just thinking out loud...
Comparing the ballistic numbers in this recent organic gel test to the old Federal HST 147gr data, I would say the Federal HST 147gr is the true winner. It's neck and neck with the Wincester in terms of penetration, but it's doing it with that awesome HST expansion. The Winchester sure looks good, but I am sticking with the 147gr HST.
Glad to see you back. I'm running HSTs in my 3.3 XPS, and the Barnes Tac-XPDs in my 5" XD Mod 2. They do like the extra velocity that the longer barrel provides and they are pretty when they do what they are designed to.
Have you thought about testing any of the Lehigh or Underwood Xtreme Defender or Xtreme Penetrator 9mm loads? I'm wondering if doing so would yield an upset as happened in the .380 ACP Ammo Quest with the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator rounds?
But wasn't the final decision that the Penetrators look better in gel than they do in real life? I think the last final conclusion for the .380 was still for the XTP's and HydraShoks.
The Penetrators were so good in .380 because it's hard to engineer .380s that penetrate enough. 9mm Penetrators over-penetrate. I think Military Arms Channel did gel tests with 9mm Penetrators which showed their overpenetration.
What a surprise! I couldn’t have seen that coming! I really thought you would have picked the HST’s. I do love my HST’s but I have to say the Winchester Defends are great too. I’m going to be stocking up on Winchester Defend, but I won’t be ditching my HST Micro 150’s anytime soon. I’m glad you’re back!
HST all the way and it's not even close. Winchester ammo has been the most unreliable, inconsistent, poor QC crap for me for years. More ammo failures from Winchester ammo than all others combined. Even if I could find well priced 50 round boxes of Win the way I can HST....nope. HST or Gold Dot. Hell I'll go all the way back to 9BPLE before I carry Win
Love the Ammo Quest series as it provides objective information. That being said, Winchester Defense has dethroned HST...barely. But HST remains a "stellar" performer which is why I'm still and HST fan boy.
I dont think I've ever even seen the Winchester Defense online and definitely not in person. Even the HST are very rare in store and online, but it is out there. I was able to get a bunch of it in various grains in 9mm and the standard version in .45 acp.
Check out BoneFrog gun club for HST ammo. 180gr & 165gr HST usually $35 for box of 50. 124gr, 124gr +P, 147gr HST $37.50 for 50rds. I purchased them at this price during the height of the pandemic and the sme price just a couple of weeks ago.
"Consistency" is one of the things that sets your channel apart. So many just do one round, which I assumed was fine, till I saw your channel years ago and noticed some loads going all over the place from great to poor in a few rounds.
Agreed! The lighter 124 gr. HST is more effected by energy loss in gel than the heavier 147 gr. Winchester. I carry HST because of his earlier tests. It's going to take some doing to get me to change.
@Uganda Knuckles the 147 had better penetration than the 124 when he retested it. He mistakenly thought the 124 had better because he used the wrong gel.
Excellent video. Very glad you are back. I carry several different pistols depending upon the clothing I wear. I prefer a 4" barrel becuz I can shoot it more accurately. I have been using the HST and the Winchester Defend for a few yrs. I think I started using them based on your reviews. I can easily buy Win Defend @ a local store. I get the HST thru online shopping. Both brands shoot well thru any of my guns. Rite now I carry a Springfield emp 4 or a Walther 4" compact. I have great confidence in both. Thanks again for all your hard work. Wishing you and your family continued good health.
Wish I could get $.50 HST. I’m in the people’s republic of NY. Can only get the 20 rd boxes at $28. We can’t get ammo shipped to us mortals any more and getting it to a dealer costs stupid money here.
Simple solution to that move out of Cuomo-Ville. You can’t blame anyone but yourself for not voting with your feet and and your wallet and getting tf out of commietown
Love ll the work that went into this! Bravo, sir. That said, I feel that this whole thing is incomplete without including the Lehigh "Xtreme Defender" loadings by Underwood or Black Hills.
As much as I appreciate these videos, I still prefer to go by real world LE shootings. I work with the folks at Vista Outdoor (parent company to both Federal/Speer) and since the vast majority of LE departments use one of the big 3 (Federal Premium HST, Speer Gold Dot or Hornady Critical Duty), those are the 3 I trust. If they are proven to work in LE shootings, they are surely good enough for me! Although my preference is the 147gr HST, I’m also a huge fan of the 124gr +P Gold Dot and the 135gr +P Hornady Critical Duty. Until departments out there start using the 147gr Winchester Defend rounds and there’s data out there showing how effective they are, I’ll stick with what LE departments out there are issuing. I know there are departments that run the PDX1, which I believe is the same projectile as the Defend projectile, but I haven’t been able to obtain any data on them yet. This is all obviously my humble opinion, but I’d stick with either the Federal Premium HST or Speer Gold Dot offerings. If you live in an area where it gets cold/snows or want a barrier blind round, then perhaps run the Critical Duty. Otherwise, whether it’s the 124gr/147/150gr HST or the 115/124/147gr Gold Dots, they’ll get the job done if you do your job behind the gun. In the meantime, good luck finding those rounds right now! Argh!
My agency switched from the 124 grain Federal Hydrashok +P+ to the Winchester SXT 124 grain +P. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend them. I know the T-Series is the updated version. The SXT has nasty sharp talons when they expand. It’s all proper shot placement. The 147 Winchester T- Series is another popular ammunition choice used by many Law Enforcement Agencies.
Glad you are back and life is treating you better in a way. I just wanted to ask to refresh my memory where did the Winchester ranger or PDX1 147gr land in your testing? Again glad you are back.
I agree. I know I'm being too picky, but I like the 5-round tests, too. There is variation between the same kind of round. Five would be better. Regardless, many many thanks for doing these!!
As an HST fan boy I'm going to point out that the showdown is very slightly rigged. 124 vs 147 is like a 185 lb and a 220 lb boxer both squaring off. A match that doesn't respect weight classes is going to have definite bias towards the heavier hitter. Still, Winchester did their research and I have to give them serious respect for making it available commercially much earlier than Federal released their commercial 147 HST. Congratulations on finishing the ammo quest.
He already tested both the standard pressure and +P versions of the HST 147gr. It didn't perform as well which is why it didn't make it into this video. Nothing biased or rigged about it.
I accept the conclusion, BUT, Federal also has a training version of the HST, Syntech Training Match in both 124gr & 147gr, I don't think they have the +P's. I have not shot them yet, but have 2,000 rounds of the 124 on order. Thanks for coming back and wrapping this up. I have followed the quest for a couple years and am happy I carry your first runner up.
Outstanding ammo test and thanks for doing it. I am now loading my Glock 45, Walther PPQ and will be in my Mossberg MC1sc when I pick it up this weekend. TWO THUMBS WAY UP 👍👍
I am so glad you did this test. I bought a bunch of HST 147s when I first started CC. I just thought they looked vicious. Nice to know they will do the job. I have wondered about the Winchester...I just like Winchester. So...all good info. Now to find the best for my new 380 TCP.
