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Ammo Quest .380 ACP: Lehigh XP Xtreme Penetrator test in ballistic gel 

ShootingTheBull410
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Thirty-second in a series of a quest to find the overall best ammunition for modern micro-compact 380 ACP pistols (such as the Taurus TCP 738, the Ruger LCP, Sig P238, Beretta Pico, Kel-Tec P3AT or S&W Bodyguard or any other popular 380 micro-pistol using a barrel length of around 2.8").
This is a "bonus" episode. While I have already published the "Final" video summary of the quest, there are new rounds (or rounds I've finally been able to get my hands on) that make it worth re-opening the quest.
This ammo was sent to me by Lehigh Defense for testing purposes.
In this installment, I am testing the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator (XP) Ammunition in .380 ACP; mfr part #07380085S. It performed simply superbly through both the denim and bare gel tests, although there was a little bit of overpenetration in 2 of the rounds in the bare test. But the wound channel it created far surpassed the wound channels of conventional .380 ammo. In this test I simultaneously shot flatnose FMJ's and a Precision One hollowpoint so that we could see the results all in the same gel block and determine what differences the XP bullet offers.
I am chronographing the rounds as well as firing at least five rounds per block so that we get a more statistically relevant result, rather than the typical ammo test where only one round is fired. Ammo can behave a bit unpredictably, and the results of any one bullet are not necessarily representative of how the ammunition performs overall.
Note: I'm not making any claims for these videos other than that these are the results I achieved, in my own testing, from the stated pistol. I have no intention to make a blanket endorsement or indictment of any product, only to review and report what I found in a given instance. Obviously it is incumbent upon each individual to conduct their own research and make up their own mind about which defensive ammunition is best for their own purposes, in their own firearms. Also keep in mind that individual firearms can be persnickety; my TCP may feed a particular round consistently whereas your TCP might jam on those rounds, so -- please conduct your own testing before trusting any particular ammo.
Finally -- note that the purpose of this testing is not to try to establish that a .380 is "just as good" as pistols in the major calibers (9mm, 10mm, 357 Mag, 357 Sig, .40, .45, etc). Of course it isn't and never will be; those other cartridges all contain much more power than the .380 does. What I'm trying to establish is: are there any rounds out there for the .380 that can reliably deliver the penetration (with expansion) that has been documented and proven necessary in order for the bullet to be able to reach the vital organs of an attacker and deliver an incapacitating hit? That's all. You would always be better armed with a bigger caliber. But the question I'm exploring here is: if you've already chosen to carry a .380 micro-pistol (for whatever your personal reasons), what ammo will make it most effective?
*** NEW ***
For those who don't understand why the 12" penetration distance is so important, please see my blog entries on the subject:
shootingthebull...
shootingthebull...
shootingthebull...
shootingthebull...
Subscribe to the channel here to see the rest of the episodes in this series, as well as other ammo tests and equipment reviews. And check out the blog at www.shootingthebull.net.

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14 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 600   
@garym5336
@garym5336 8 лет назад
How about a update with the new Lehigh DEFENSE ROUNDS.
@Argartis
@Argartis 10 лет назад
Thank you. For your whole .380 ACP ammo quest series. You saved me personally alot of time and worry, and I'm sure you've saved others two. Now I know that .380 can actually preform well and with the right ammo, I am absolutely willing to carry a micro pocket gun in the caliber.
@ShootingTheBull410
@ShootingTheBull410 10 лет назад
I was quite impressed with the performance combo of the pocket pistol and these Lehigh bullets or the Precision One XTP's. But for clarification, I think I should at least point out that while the performance is impressive for a pocket pistol, it's still just a pocket pistol, and I think everyone would be best armed by carrying the biggest, most powerful handgun they can reliably and accurately control. For some people, all they can handle (or all they're willing to carry) is a pocket pistol, and for that reason I did this testing -- to find what bullets make a pocket pistol most capable of delivering the most effective incapaciting hits it can. The pocket pistols are so incredibly easy to carry, and therefore more likely to be carried, that combining a pocket pistol with an adequate-performing bullet would make for an appealing combination. I would still always recommend a more powerful pistol whenever possible, but I'm quite impressed with just how well a pocket pistol can perform when combined with the right ammo.
@sweimar58
@sweimar58 9 лет назад
Underwood Ammo has a new xtreme defender round for 380 in standard pressure and +p. I would love to see you run some tests on this new round. If it's anything like the 9mm tests that Mac conducted on the military arms channel you might have a new favorite carry ammo.
@washingtonstatepicker3460
@washingtonstatepicker3460 4 года назад
I have been following you and your quest since buying my first .380 a week ago! Thank you for doing the footwork for people like me who do not have the time to do so. I will be ordering Lehigh rounds. I hope they feed through my Taurus spectrum!
@holtian
@holtian 9 лет назад
Thanks a ton for all your work. Really gives great info and it's presented in a very professional way. Keep up the good work.
@meta443
@meta443 8 лет назад
Bullet ballistics are something I'm not expert on by any stretch. You videos are helping me a lot.
@larryknowlton7094
@larryknowlton7094 2 года назад
Watch enough of his videos,and you will become one !
@georgejohnsmith
@georgejohnsmith 9 лет назад
Excellent tests, really the best ones on RU-vid. I hope you go on with these for many many more years. The results on the Lehigh XP are impressive, I love the idea of a "controlled penetration solid", especially in the .380 ACP, but even in the 9mm it is better than many JHPs. It is truly innovative. Just one more thing: one should not draw conclusions about the damage profile (wound cavity) from the gelatin tests. Ballistic gelatin (regardless of its collagen content) does not have any tensile strength, unlike real tissues. Though it is possible formally to define a similar parameter, it is then dependent on the velocity (is proportional to the square root of the velocity). This behaviour is very different from that of real flesh, so a bullet tears gelatin and flesh in a rather different way. I remember when the FBI evaluated ammo by filling up the gel cavity with water, and the "volume" measured this way was the performance indicator. It was one of the MOST unscientific things they have ever done. Gelatin is good for evaluating the penetration ability into soft tissue, nothing more, nothing less.
@blancs3030
@blancs3030 8 лет назад
Like everyone says you have the best reviews. Ive watched all your 9mm and 380 reviews and don't know why I have subscribed until now.
@DC2Megaboost
@DC2Megaboost 10 лет назад
Pretty cool round, I really like this Lehigh ammo thanks for another great 380 test
@elbryan9
@elbryan9 9 лет назад
Do you have any plans on testing their Extreme Defender line that recently came out? Looks pretty similar in design.
@MistPassiert
@MistPassiert 10 лет назад
I love your videos because you take a VERY impartial approach to each caliber, and do not allow your own caliber bias to affect your testing/review of ammunition. I like watching your videos to help determine which ammunition will perform for me and my weapons.
@ShootingTheBull410
@ShootingTheBull410 10 лет назад
Thanks for saying so! Glad you're finding it helpful!
@nushootersixtyfour6178
@nushootersixtyfour6178 10 лет назад
Great review. I have been using the Precision One based on your ammo quest. These are more expensive but seem to remove the failure doubt from the equation. I carry a Ruger LC380. It's a great gun for me, easy recoil, and now a great bullet to go with it. Keep up the good ammo reviews. We are watching and learning.
@remsterx
@remsterx 9 лет назад
Awesome that these cycled through the tcp738. I'm getting one just for this reason. I was looking for a pocket pistol/ankle back up for my 24/7 pro g2c 45 or when I can't conceal it. Great reviews! Keep up the good work!
@jpap967
@jpap967 9 лет назад
Recently Lehigh Defense has come out with a 65 grain 380 "xtreme defender". They claim 18" penetration and better terminal ballistics than the 380 xp. Wanna try them out for us?? :-)
@RenaissanceThinking
@RenaissanceThinking 5 лет назад
The Extreme Defender is awesome.
@nathanlambshead4778
@nathanlambshead4778 3 года назад
I guess I am too much an old timer to want a bullet that light in my defense gun. Don't care how fast it goes. Seems to be there is the perfect sectional density for each caliber. And 65 is not it for 9 mm. Too short and squat a projectile. But a test would be interesting. Better if bones and skin and jackets were in front of the gelatin. See what it really does at that light weight.
@markgriffin9287
@markgriffin9287 3 года назад
Just got a box. Would love a ballistic gel test
@phigdon3
@phigdon3 2 года назад
I use the Underwood loading of this "extreme defender" in all my 380s.
@larryknowlton7094
@larryknowlton7094 2 года назад
@@phigdon3 I do to,but I would really love to see them tested here,used his methodology .I feel.pretty confident that the bigger grooves probably do cut a bigger wound channel ,I just can't help but wonder if they retard the penetration too much.
@iamwendel
@iamwendel 8 лет назад
I like your videos. Don't know if you've seen but Lehigh came out with a modified version, a lighter 65 gr bullet. It looks like they cut deeper grooves in the tip, they said it was to overcome the concern some people had about overpenetration. Oh and they've named their design now, the FTM- Fluid Transfer Monolithic bullet.
@bjolly8924
@bjolly8924 4 года назад
Man, this guy does the best and most informative ammo reviews.!!
@larryknowlton7094
@larryknowlton7094 2 года назад
By far!
@sparkles13
@sparkles13 9 лет назад
That's it. Now I can buy a .380.
@mrelectron62
@mrelectron62 9 лет назад
Interesting bullet thanks for taking the time to do a review on this will have to get a box or two and see how my gun responds to them.
@559BearDown
@559BearDown 8 лет назад
Just picked these up for my G42. Seems like the perfect balance. Thanks for the test!
@wmicheler
@wmicheler 10 лет назад
I've decided to buy 100 before they sell out. 380 is the hardest bullet to buy for, thanks for another great review.
@bensimonton
@bensimonton 7 лет назад
Why did you not test the Defense round? According to Lehigh it does much more damage. Lehigh recommends it for self-defense and the Penetrator for hunting and such. Lehigh has a video comparison test on their website. Thanks again for your hard work in our behalf, Ben
@terrywaters6186
@terrywaters6186 7 лет назад
The Extreme Defense in 380 didn't exist when he did this video.
@Followme556
@Followme556 9 лет назад
I think it's important to consider that from some target aspects, penetration in excess of 18" can certainly be desirable. It's also worth noting that penetrating skin is supposed to be equivalent to 3" of gel penetration.
@bamafox2438
@bamafox2438 10 лет назад
I bought this ammo for my M&P Bodyguard after watching your video. It ran the entire box with no issues. It was actually more reliable than the target ammo. Great stuff! Thanks for taking the time to compile this data. Thanks to it, I have confidence that the ammo in my gun will do it's job if it's ever called on. I had never heard of Lehigh and couldn't find it locally so your help was invaluable. Thanks!
@ShootingTheBull410
@ShootingTheBull410 10 лет назад
Again, thanks for the report -- it is an unusual bullet shape and that's caused more than a few people to ask about feeding reliability, so hearing reports from real users will hopefully help people make up their minds. I was really impressed with the performance of this round, but -- as said before, if it doesn't feed, it doesn't matter. Glad to hear they're working for you! These are what I have my .380 loaded with.
@bamafox2438
@bamafox2438 9 лет назад
ShootingTheBull410 Would you do a test of the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator rounds? They make one that is self proclaimed +P at 1200 fps and another that is 1100 fps in standard pressure using the Lehigh Defense XP bullet. Smith and Wesson customer service said +p isn't a good idea. I agree and I know you do too. What about the standard pressure? I'd love to see what some extra power does for that bullet. Thanks!
@travisbickle7931
@travisbickle7931 10 лет назад
the more I see of what Lehigh is doing the more I love them! really like that company and look forward to more of their products!
@holmiumh
@holmiumh 10 лет назад
Excellent review! Thanks for trying to extract the information to the audience in a digestible way.
@jimkubitza3820
@jimkubitza3820 5 лет назад
I carry my 380's loaded with Underwood Xtreme Defender and Underwood Xtreme Penetrator alternating in the magazine.
@Billfish57
@Billfish57 4 года назад
You think the way I do. I have always loved the idea of alternating rounds, sometimes I go with a penetrating round and a hollow point that way if everyone gets a double tap, I can feel good that they got something that will work well to stop them. I have the penetrators and the defenders too, the HP rounds are not good in the .380 because the don't have the power to work well.
@Dexter-nw2fe
@Dexter-nw2fe 6 месяцев назад
​@@Billfish57 unless you put all of them in the same hole then this is fudd lore
@davez2949
@davez2949 8 лет назад
Just bought some of the re-designed Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator ammo from Underwood. Immediately noticed that the nose design is significantly different than the old version. The leading edge size (the "plus sign") is significantly smaller on the new design. Lehigh/Underwood say this is to allow more reliable feeding through more gun designs. But, this "tweek" to the design certainly could cause major difference in penetration depth/wound track size. There are no current reviews of this new bullet (redesigned approx 4 months ago) and since you are clearly, unquestionably the best reviewer of carry gun ammo, could I possibly convince you to try out the new Xtreme Penetrator???
@glockpoppin
@glockpoppin 5 лет назад
Yes we need a test on the new redesigned .380 extreme penetrators
@Bennett00044
@Bennett00044 5 лет назад
Can you do a review and compare Lehigh Defense's 380 Auto 65gr Xtreme Defense Ammunition, 380 Auto 68gr Maximum Expansion Ammunition, 380 Auto 75gr Controlled Fracturing Ammunition, and the 380 Auto 90gr Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition
@RKHarm24
@RKHarm24 10 лет назад
New player to the table for 380 pocket pistols. Good show, review.
@jermainepearson6835
@jermainepearson6835 7 лет назад
I've been doing some research ok Lehigh defense ammo, and they are a game changer for me. they have the best ammo money can buy, and I've now made up my mind that I can add a 9-millimeter and 380 to my gun collection even for self-defense carry. thank you for the video
@Me2Lancer
@Me2Lancer 6 лет назад
I value your reviews and respect your objective opinions. I've been considering the Lehigh ammo and I'm convinced! Thank you.
@mmabiker1982
@mmabiker1982 9 лет назад
I asked on a different video for this and here it is! great work man thank you!
@angelberrios7843
@angelberrios7843 7 лет назад
I am very impressed....Thanks for the help for me choosing my perferred ammo for my 380.
@Paelorian
@Paelorian 10 лет назад
The Swiss should definitely adopt this projectile for their .380 ACP applications. Israel, on the other hand, may prefer the XTP. It's great to see .380 ACP go up a notch in stopping power (without a compromise). Excellent innovation. Great job, Lehigh Defense. Thanks for giving the shooting public confidence in the manufacturer claims, ShootingTheBull. I credit you with saving good lives through promoting more effective defensive carry ammo.
@jean-michelnicolas9999
@jean-michelnicolas9999 10 лет назад
AFAIK the Swiss (Police and Military) use 9 mm parabellum.
@Dynoooo
@Dynoooo 10 лет назад
***** Yes they do!
@Paelorian
@Paelorian 10 лет назад
***** I was joking. Look at the bullet shapes. Between the Lehigh Defense XP and the Winchester SilverTip I'd say ShootingTheBull410 already has laid some great groundwork for a Halloween special on self-defense ammunition options against dangerous preternatural creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc.)
@1054Life
@1054Life 10 лет назад
Picked up three boxes to try out in my S&W BG380. Will post once they arrive and are tested. Great video and thanks STB!
@garyjones6800
@garyjones6800 9 лет назад
Hi, I love your show!! Lehigh has come out with a new 380. Called Xtreme Defense. It has a different configured bullet. I would appreciate you doing a test on it. Suppose to be better than the Penetrator. Thanks
@scottoiler7964
@scottoiler7964 9 лет назад
Would be interested in seeing the comparison between the Lehigh Defense .380 XP vs. the Inceptor ARX .380 by polycase. Thanks for putting these videos out.
@JECOLTM4
@JECOLTM4 8 лет назад
Very informative, I like your methodology and approach. Keep up the good work
@Darkmesna1
@Darkmesna1 9 лет назад
Ever since my purchase of a Bersa thunder, I've been doing research on the most effective rounds for a .380. I got suckered into buying G2 RIP ammo, which I keep seeing in other videos having penetration only being up to six inches, while a .177 BB gun only has 3 inches. Now learning there is actually a FBI standard for lethal penetration, I found this most informative on which loads I should use defensively.
@rickmatson5336
@rickmatson5336 10 лет назад
Thank you very much for the information and the link to the article. Guess I have some expensive milk jug ammunition to use up. Keep up the great work guys!!
@garrettforchrist2700
@garrettforchrist2700 5 лет назад
I would really love to see you test the Xtreme defender. Thank you for your adventure to figure out the best 380 round!
@marksmith351
@marksmith351 8 лет назад
Love your videos!! Any chance you will do a video using the new Lehigh Xtreme Defense (not Penetrator) from both Lehigh and from Underwood??? Pretty please!!!!!
@yossilazerson
@yossilazerson 10 лет назад
Another well done video! Thanks you sir! This channel is my go to for ballistics gel testing. By far!
@uncledevo
@uncledevo 8 лет назад
Please test the Underwood 380 ACP 65 Grain Extreme Defender and 9mm Luger 90 grain. Love your videos. Your reviews are outstanding.
@DrWhoRocks333
@DrWhoRocks333 10 лет назад
I would love to see these tested in .38 special. Preferably a 3" barrel, but I have a feeling your .38sp tests will be with a snubby. I'll take whatever I can get!
@JayWandersOut
@JayWandersOut 10 лет назад
Great review and great find. I actually just ordered a couple of boxes for my Bodyguard 380. I was going to go to a bigger gun once jacket season comes but I may just stick with the 380.
@richardefriend
@richardefriend 3 года назад
Excellent video. The dirty little secret about HP's, according to the FBI's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", is that they "expand in a human target only 60-70%of the time at best". That means as much as a 40% failure rate (probably higher if there are any barriers involved), and that applies to all the top HPs as well. What more people should know is that there's a 51 page multi-bullet/caliber analysis for law enforcement (entitled: 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION) that reached the following unqualified conclusion about the Underwood Xtreme Defender: (a fluted solid copper tipped round) "Overall: This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the agencies reviewed draft shot data." and "The radial flutes increase tissue pressure and direct the tissue outward to increase wound diameter. ... tests confirmed that in over 100 shots the measured wound channel was not only larger than that of an FMJ but in most cases was the largest wound channel produced in that caliber compared to all other rounds to include fully functioning hollow points." and "All rounds in all calibers tested penetrated 15.2 - 20 inches with and without barriers. " and "Every single shot did roughly the same thing. There is a 0% chance of failure to function because there can be no failure to tumble or expand (because they don’t) and no chance to fragment. This was the most Reliable and Consistent round tested." It's discussed on p. 32-33. That's why I've moved all my 9mm pistols and PCC's to the Underwood XD 9mm 90 gr. +P, and my .380 ACP to the Xtreme Penetrator 90 gr. My .45 ACPs will be moved as well, as soon as I can find some Underwood XDs for them.
@ThePlayfulmutt
@ThePlayfulmutt 10 лет назад
Something that ShootingTheBull didn't mention during the video is tumbling. Tumbling can be a problem with hollow points. If a JHP tumbles it may not expand properly. These Lehighs tumble? That only makes the permanent wound cavity wider. I am suddenly drawn to this ammo because of its resilience to bone. If a hollow point hits a bone it may stop, or it may cause a stress fracture. If a Lehigh hits a bone (depending on the bone) it may cause a compound fracture or shattering effect like a FMJ would. I live in a state that has very cold climates and I have always been concerned about penetrating a thick Columbia-like winter jacket. I think these Lehighs are the perfect answer to meeting penetration with devastation. Thanks, ShootingTheBull. Great scientific analysis as always.
@dannyreynolds2943
@dannyreynolds2943 9 лет назад
Would definitely like to see some tests on the new Lehigh Xtreme Defense 65 grain! And a comparison to Underwood's load of the same bullet would be nice as well.
@Narsuitus
@Narsuitus 2 года назад
Thanks for the video. For some time, I have been unable to find Lehigh XP Xtreme Penetrator 85 grain solid copper 380 ammo at my local dealers. On the other hand, I have been able to find Fort Scott 95 grain solid copper 380 ammo and Ruger ARX 56 grain solid copper/polymer 380 ammo at my local dealers.
@scottishpride032
@scottishpride032 10 лет назад
WOW WOW WOW. Thats seriously impressive. I have ruled out ever carrying a 380 gun ever due to the ammo issues you have reiterated consistently in your tests. This made me cheer "Yah Lehigh" at the end and then begin considering a Walther PPK.
@tennesseeron1297
@tennesseeron1297 8 лет назад
I am going home to try the Underwood loads using the Extreme Penetrators into my Kahr P380 and then into a newer Kimber Micro Raptor stainless. Great video. Thanks!!!
@392HemiDemon
@392HemiDemon 10 лет назад
Thank you for all of your effort. I have been watching your videos for some time. Up until a few months ago I carried a Glock 27, my current carry piece is a Glock 42. Your test results in the Lehigh .380 Xtreme Penetrator. This new ammo makes a .380 as effective as a more powerful caliber. I received my Xtreme Penetrator ammo yesterday. Thanks, Bruce Longenecker
@ticklemejoviemo
@ticklemejoviemo 8 лет назад
so very grateful for your fantastic videos. i also carry a "micro" 9mm (PM9) and yoir video series has helped me narrow my choices a lot when it comes to what I'll carry. i'm considering a 380 and am truly impressed with this Lehigh performance. Out of curiosity, are you planning on testing either the Lehigh or Underwood Xtreme defender verion of this ammo? very curious to see how Xtreme defense compares to Xtreme penetrator. Keep up the great work, by far my favorote ammo testing on youtube (5 shot average's are GREAT)
@KevinJohn556
@KevinJohn556 10 лет назад
Just received my Underwood Loading of the 380 extreme penetrator 20 round box. Can not wait to try them out with 1100 fps from my S&W bodyguard 380. Looking forward to seeing the other calibers such as 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, 45Acp and my favorite 357 sig. With underwood loadings I bet these things will be trucking!
@yt_life1610
@yt_life1610 8 лет назад
i am curious to see the Lehigh xtreme penetrator vs Lehigh defender in .380
@markgriffin9287
@markgriffin9287 3 года назад
Same just got a box of extreme defender in 380
@markgriffin9287
@markgriffin9287 2 года назад
Paul Harrell just did a video on the 68 grain xd
@davidkey6797
@davidkey6797 2 года назад
The XTP tests I've seen, it overpenetrates greatly.
@angrysheepdog9744
@angrysheepdog9744 8 месяцев назад
Nice test not many people recognize the reliability and effectiveness of a solid copper FNFMJ with flutes to overcome the limitations of .380ACP. Underwood loads them in +P to 1200fps.
@scottfree6479
@scottfree6479 8 лет назад
I have a Glock 42. So far it has run these flawlessly. They are accurate, consistent, and while I wouldn't call them an ideal defensive round I don't think you can really get much better for a 380. I'm curious to see how the xtreme defender 65gr +P version performs. In fact, I'd be willing to send you some if you wished to test them.
@blaze5536
@blaze5536 8 лет назад
im hoping for a test on the 65 grain in as well for my glock 42
@jlor7675
@jlor7675 7 лет назад
Both the XD and XP underwood loads ran flawlessly through my Bodyguard today. My new 380 carry load.
@Followme556
@Followme556 9 лет назад
I bought the underwood +P version of this bullet. It's my new carry round. Previously i carried buffalo bore 100gr+P hard cast flat nose rounds.
@chochemancientone1217
@chochemancientone1217 10 лет назад
This ammo runs great through my Ruger LCP. I love innovation. Especially innovation that works. Seems like Lehigh may be onto something here.
@sonnygunz9207
@sonnygunz9207 2 года назад
I have some of Underwoods recently manufactured .380acp Xtreme penetrators and they have changed slightly. The meplat on yours is sharp and squared off. The current offering from Underwood has a rounded off meplat. My only guess as to why the meplat of the projectile has been changed is for more reliable feeding. Now I wonder how significant the damage would be between the two. Thanks for all the great videos.
@marktesner2010
@marktesner2010 7 лет назад
Thanks for the quality videos that you supply for your viewers.
@gomcse
@gomcse 8 лет назад
One of the best ammo reviews I've ever seen. Thank you!
@GunFunZS
@GunFunZS 10 лет назад
I am more impressed with LeeHi all the time. Usually "exotic ammo" is a euphemism for B.S. I have yet to see anyone test a product of theirs that doesn't basically perform as claimed. I don't know if you have the capability, but a video I would really like to see is a comparison of this to the top performing conventional HP (XTP) in gel with a rib simulant. Obviously, there is a very good chance that any defensive shot will encounter a rib. Yet very few of the tests account for the effects of striking a hard object on HP performance.
@chuckhaggard1584
@chuckhaggard1584 6 лет назад
Extensive previous testing by several agencies has shown that ribs are meaningless is testing. You can easily put something as dull as a screwdriver right through a human rib by hand.
@DrWhoRocks333
@DrWhoRocks333 10 лет назад
Well, the .380 round is now sold out on Lehigh's website. These AmmoQuest videos are having a HUGE impact on sales and popularity of defensive rounds.
@Gun_NutGun_Nut
@Gun_NutGun_Nut 6 лет назад
I would love to see you do a review on Lehigh extreme defense 68 grain
@gwidwock
@gwidwock 6 лет назад
Where have you been? There is new ammo out there and I haven't heard from you in a long time. You and TNOutdoors9 were the best in ammo test. Miss you guys.
@malanritz
@malanritz 9 лет назад
Do you have plans to do a test video of Lehigh ' s new extreme defender round? Supposedly, it's designed to stay under 18" while still doing the damage of extreme penetrator. I'm curious if it achieves above 12" and under 18", of course out of a micro pistol. In particular, I have a Kahr P380. Thank you though, I love your videos! Very helpful!
@69CamaroSS
@69CamaroSS 7 лет назад
Love your videos! Like the dozens of other comments on this one in particular, will you PLEASE compare the Lehigh/Underwood Extreme Defender 380ACP to the Extreme Penetrator. The redesigned (deeper) flutes on the nose of the projectile are supposed to reduce the possibility of over penetrating while simultaneously INCREASING the temporary and permanent wound cavity. I'm begging you to compare the two.....and feel free to throw in their +P loadings (yes, I know about "no official SAAMI specs on +P 380ACP"....but they DO load and sell them as well! :)).
@drizler
@drizler 6 лет назад
69CamaroSS407 n
@SirFornicateRectum
@SirFornicateRectum 10 лет назад
WoW! I'm impressed and that don't happen often. I don't have a .380 anymore, but I'd really like to see tests w/ .45Colt, .45ACP, and 9mm! Well and the .44 mag, but any 44mag pretty much demolishes what it hits. I do wish their 9mm bullet was a little heavier than 85gr though. More like 147gr but beggars can't be choosers!
@garrettforchrist2700
@garrettforchrist2700 5 лет назад
I carry a 380 with the extreme defender. I like your videos. Could you please test the extreme defender for us?
@recreantwretch7538
@recreantwretch7538 10 лет назад
Im sold on this ammo now. Awesome studies!
@BigZhukov
@BigZhukov 9 лет назад
Thank you for reviewing this interesting bullet design. I'm curious if you've had a chance to talk to Doctor Roberts about this bullet design. Lehigh has been very innovate lately. A very good test and I applaud your continued use of properly calibrated gelatin! This is how bullets should be tested!
@frogfoot198
@frogfoot198 7 лет назад
Enjoy your videos. I hope in the near future you will consider trying the Underwood ACP 65 grain Xtreme Defender in the 380 caliber. The bullet is purchased from Lehigh Defense and it's practically the same only lighter in weight with a faster round. It would make for some interesting data comparison with the Lehigh Defense 90 grain XP. So far the Lehigh Defense is my go to carry ammo but things could change depending on the results. Thanks.
@rickmatson5336
@rickmatson5336 9 лет назад
I was curious as to what the MacPherson WTI is for the Lehigh Defense XP Xtreme Penetrator Is? Thanks for a great series of informative videos!!
@ShootingTheBull410
@ShootingTheBull410 9 лет назад
Rick Matson That's hard to figure, because it may be damaging more tissue than what the MacPherson factor was originally created to address. I would say that in general it should probably be about comparable to a flatface cylinder, since it does have a flat face with a sharp edge. A flatface cylinder solid bullet in .355" diameter would have a WTI of 24. But again, this is only an approximation, because the formula was designed back in 1995, long before there was a bullet of this same type and shape.
@texas_shooter8230
@texas_shooter8230 9 лет назад
After watching this video... I got very excited thinking I could carry my bersa cc and feel good about the 380 load. I ordered two boxes of the Lehigh xp ammo and went to the range today... I was disappointed. I had ftf on every other round... I had to sling shot the slide to put into battery after the ftf and had to drop the mag on some as well. I read an earlier post that someone had no problems with their bersa. This weapon has been 100% flawless... I love it. But it looks like I'll be carrying the bersa cc with precision one rounds instead of the Lehigh XP. Still a good choice though...
@milaniman
@milaniman 8 лет назад
I'd like to see you test the Underwood Lehieh Xtreme defense round in .380 standard pressure 65 grain. Thanks for your excellent work.
@chopinbloc
@chopinbloc 9 лет назад
Those fractures in the gelatin are not part of the permanent cavity, but are the result of gel being stretched beyond its elastic limit. Gelatin is less elastic than most human tissues so it is not representative of wounding. It certainly does seem to indicate that a whole lot of *something* is going on here, though. Thank you for another excellent video and review.
@jonathanlangford4291
@jonathanlangford4291 9 лет назад
I have to agree. after using this bullet for hunting, I've come to two conclusions: The XP bullet causes greater damage, and bleeding, than a SWC. The XP bullet does NOT cause a bigger wound channel than a hollow point. The fact remains, an expanded hollow point gives you the greatest chance of penetration through something vital. In pistols, bullets really seem to only damage what they physically touch. With that in mind, the XP bullet is an amazing hunting cartridge. They bleed faster and show a much better trail (Than a SWC).
@amontyYT
@amontyYT 9 лет назад
+Jonathan Langford +The Chopping Block "They bleed faster and show a much better trail." OK... But they don't cause greater damage? Then where does the extra blood come from? You can't have it both ways. The point about relative elasticity is good - are you aware of any hard evidence/testing that can quantify this? It's a very important point you make, Chopper!
@jonathanlangford4291
@jonathanlangford4291 9 лет назад
I said greater than a swc.
@chopinbloc
@chopinbloc 9 лет назад
+Alan Montgomery The FBI paper "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" covers this pretty well. Dr. Fackler and Dr. Roberts also refer to this effect in their writing. Generally speaking, the projectile velocity at which the stretch cavity tends to exceed the elastic limit of tissue is approximately 2,000 fps. Of course, this isn't a hard limit and projectile shape, weight, and construction also have an effect, but it's safe to say that at 1,500 fps, the stretch cavity is unable to contribute substantively to wounding and at 2,500 fps, the stretch cavity causes significant tearing. The tearing is dramatically increased with projectile fragmentation, which is one reason that fragmenting 5.56mm ammunition is so devastating.
@chopinbloc
@chopinbloc 9 лет назад
+Jonathan Langford I haven't done a direct comparison, but I'll bet it's safe to say the XP cuts a little better channel than a SWC. Probably less than flat point or WC bullets, though, and a lot worse than JHP. If you take a look at my 9mm Extreme Penetrator test, you can see there is more disruption in the gel from the FMJ than there is from the XP. I remain unconvinced that the XP is good for anything other than separating shooters from their money.
@kenpeters9807
@kenpeters9807 4 года назад
I have noticed, on different ballistic gel tests, that the brand/model of pistol seems to get different results. I like your reviews. I would like to see your .380 tests performed with a Sig P238 and the pistol you’re using with the Lehigh Penetrator and Hornady xtp. The comparison of the rounds from these two different pistols would be interesting. I’ve observed when .380 ammo is promoted, a Sig .380 is often used. Tighter tolerance = better performance? I do not know. Please test this. Thank you.
@petersappier6073
@petersappier6073 10 лет назад
This bullet almost makes me want a .380 again. I went to a 9mm and currently run Federal 124 gr. HST based on your review.
@voxfan7403
@voxfan7403 Год назад
Per Charles Schwartz, 2012, "Quantitative Ammunition Selection," iUniverse, Bloomington, IN, given identical bullet sectional density and velocity, the cruciform flat nose bullet will penetrate 8.3% less than a FMJ-RN bullet, but will damage 4.2% more tissue along the length of the wound channel.
@tcguitars777
@tcguitars777 10 лет назад
Hi ShootingTheBull410.... I picked up the last of the 85 grain Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator in 380. They no longer make the 85 grain in 380 ammo. They changed it to 90 grain and upped the power to match. I'm not sure it will penetrate the same. My guess the 90 grain will penetrate more than the 85 grain. I think you will need to retest since this ammo has been changed to 90 grain. Sorry it's kinda bad news. Well maybe not if the 90 grain tests well. Please retest with the 90 grain. Your the best! Thx!!
@lqgrxdeb
@lqgrxdeb 10 лет назад
Based on the results of this test, I ordered two boxes of these Xtreme Penetrator Lehigh 380's. I love my Glock 42, and for a while, I carried Precision One XTP's in it and then changed to Underwood HCFN 100gr standard pressure. But after seeing this test, I am impressed enough that I think that these 380's might just be the best round developed yet for the 380. I was already using Lehigh Max Expansion in my 9mm M&P Shield (great pistol by the way) and my Glock 19. I am sold on Lehigh. I didn't want the Max Expansion for the 380, though, because of lack of penetration. I think if my 42 cycles these well (I'm betting it will) I'm going to start carrying it again because I really do love it, and the way it shoots and fits my hand. The Shield is great too, and I can shoot them both with equal ease, so I might just alternate. Anyway, I had a long talk with Mike Cyrus at Lehigh, and I think they might have come up with the perfect 380 round. The bullet design, and dropping the FPS to in the 800's is, I think, perfect for the 380. Thanks for your work, and your vid is what tipped the scales of me buying this ammo.
@tcguitars777
@tcguitars777 10 лет назад
By the way. The Lehigh XP shoots great in my Kahr P380. I've broken it in and all the new gun issues are gone. Best thing I did was polish the feed ramp to a higher luster. The muzzle velocity seems to be inline with the longer barrels like the Taurus has. The polygonal barrel makes up for being 1/4+" shorter.
@JayCrenshaw
@JayCrenshaw 7 лет назад
Can you do a test on the Xtreme Defender....in 380? A lot of folks are interested in this newer round from Lehigh, which is meant to improve the XP for personal defense (lessen penetration and increase cavitation). Lehigh, Underwood, and Black Hills (Honey Badger) all have a variation of this bullet. It would be awesome to see you test this round....and the three main variations of it that are out there.
@yellowboxster06
@yellowboxster06 6 лет назад
Interesting results; nice job. I often carry a Sig P238 that certainly falls into the subcompact category. But every once in awhile I carry my Browning 1911-380. My guess is that the longer barrel may push this Lehigh into the over penetration zone.
@tysonbear
@tysonbear 8 лет назад
Please test the Underwood 65 grain extreme defender +P. You are doing a great job. Thank you.
@JimFixIt74
@JimFixIt74 7 лет назад
Great video. ShootingTheBull410 any chance for a follow up video on LDXD or Underwood XD in .380? Very interested in seeing how they perform versus the LDXP or UnderWood XP in.380.
@GeographyCzar
@GeographyCzar 9 лет назад
Shootingthebull410, thanks so much for this test of the Lehigh XP bullet! In my family we have a number of female Concealed Carry Permit holders, and they tend to like .380 a lot. This bullet sure looks impressive. But, I'm tempted to wonder aloud whether the results we see in ballistic gel are indicative of the effect on human flesh, or possibly merely more of that "temporary" wound cavity type damage (hydrostatic shock) that we see with HPs (elongated over a longer channel). In other words, have these bullets been tailored to ballistic gel (inadvertently), such that the test results may not be analogous to what we can expect to see in a defensive situation? Maybe the real effect on a human will be similar to FMJ? I guess time will tell, but it will be years until we have good data from folks like the IWBA. In the meantime I guess it's either this or XTPs in .380, whichever you believe in more. I guess I still lean toward the time-tested HP design, but this test is quite compelling. I will share it with family & friends so they can make their own informed choice. Thanks, again!
@newtonsnecessities407
@newtonsnecessities407 10 лет назад
That is awesome! Where do you find these things... Keep up the great work my friend!
@MrBigdaddysdaddy
@MrBigdaddysdaddy 6 лет назад
GOOD VIDEO. BASED ON YOUR TESTS, AND ONLY ON YOUR TESTS I ORDERED A BOX OF .380 LEHIGH XP TODAY. THANKS FOR THE GREAT TESTS.
@mrapple3702
@mrapple3702 10 лет назад
I would especially like to see the .38 Special +P out of a S&W 642 or Ruger LCR. A great .38 snubbie defensive round is so hard to find.
@sohoist
@sohoist 9 лет назад
I think it would be very interesting: Could you do the calculus and talk about the comparative volume of the wound track? It would provide greater emphasis on the capability of the xp
@BFerry10
@BFerry10 10 лет назад
A great review. I had not heard of these. I am very intrigued with these in 10mm, 44 magnum, and 45 Colt for woods carry. I wonder how these would compare to the CorBon Hunter loads.
@Billfish57
@Billfish57 7 лет назад
The new Underwood .380+P 65gr. running at 1,400 fps are amazing and my favorite rounds now. I hope you add them to your testing because your testing and explanations are the best on the internet.
@DanielStinebaugh
@DanielStinebaugh 9 лет назад
I'd love to see you do a test of the 9mm Lehigh Maximum Expansion Ammo. The videos I've seen make it look pretty impressive, I'd love to hear your take.
@ShootingTheBull410
@ShootingTheBull410 9 лет назад
I believe a donor said they would be sending some, so eventually I should get a test published.
@DanielStinebaugh
@DanielStinebaugh 9 лет назад
ShootingTheBull410 If he doesn't come through let me know! I'd be happy to sponsor the test!
@larrydavis8088
@larrydavis8088 7 лет назад
Hey, Shootingthebull.... I'm requesting that you PLEASE try the 65 grain Lehigh defender load in .380 acpI've seen a few others demonstrate its effectiveness in videos but I really respect your attention to the demands of the FBI protocols. I'm looking for the BEST offering for my wife and her Bersa, and any input you can offer, would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!
@mobileone6677
@mobileone6677 9 лет назад
Subscribed! Thank You for the excellent reviews - saves us much $
@007bannor
@007bannor 9 лет назад
Thank you for the comprehensive review of this ammo, as well as all the other reviews that you do. Based on this video I purchased two boxes of the .380 and tested 1 box through my Taurus TCP. The ammo fed and cycled with no issues. The one problem I did have was when clearing an unfired round from the chamber. Its was extremely difficult for this bullet to eject freely when attempting to clear one from the pipe. The profile of the copper catches on the top of the ejection port...requiring me to perform additional (and unwanted) manipulation of the gun/bullet to remove the round. This could be a deal breaker in the event of Failure to Fire scenario, not to mention clearing the weapon at the end of the day. This may be an issue isolated to my TCP, but since you tested this with the same pistol--Have you ever experienced a similar problem?
@ShootingTheBull410
@ShootingTheBull410 9 лет назад
007bannor I have experienced that kind of issue with a variety of rounds; I've typically found that a sharper harsher snapping open of the slide is necessary with a TCP. I change out ammo a lot when doing these tests, so I have to pull loaded rounds out of the chamber frequently, and if I don't give a harsh enough rack on the slide to get the ejector to forcibly eject the round, it can make for a quite annoying situation. I don't know if that's exactly the same thing you're talking about, but it is something that I've had to deal with, with the TCP.
@chochemancientone1217
@chochemancientone1217 10 лет назад
Thanks for all your effort on these videos. I've done some primitive ballistic testing using a "Fakler Box". This is basically a wooden trough that holds gallon plastic bags filled with water. Take the inches of penetration in this set up and divide by 1.8 and you get a pretty good approximation of penetration in gel. Using this set up and factor on many other types of ammo its proven to be very close to actual ballistic gel penetration tests. All of that to say this: I tested the 85 grain XP from an LCP through two layers of t-shirt material and got 46 inches of penetration which would factor out to around 25 inches in gel. I'd be curious to see if you tested some more of these XP 380s in actual gel if you might get some significant overpenetrators like this.
@ShootingTheBull410
@ShootingTheBull410 10 лет назад
I'm not sure you can accurately mathematically calculate water penetration of a solid projectile (such as an FMJ, or an XP) and attribute that to an equivalent of gel penetration, can you? Water can be an excellent no-cost alternative for opening bullets up, for testing hollowpoints, and generally the ratio of somewhere between 1.6 and 2.5 can come close to predicting what gel penetration would have been. But with a non-expanding or non-opening bullet, I'm not sure the correlation would hold. Interesting question... Duncan MacPherson proposed using water to test bullets, but his method was specifically oriented towards hollowpoints, not solid projectiles. Shawn Dodson, who runs firearmstactical.com, has published an article with a method described; in Briefs #3 they mention a method using 1/2-gallon cardboard milk cartons, where you are supposed to count the # of cartons the bullet penetrates and then multiply that by 2.5. Seeing as a cardboard milk carton has about a 95mm square footprint, that would mean that a bullet that penetrates 8 milk cartons (and stops at the beginning of the 9th) would have traveled 30 inches of water. According to the FirearmsTactical article, you'd multiply the 8 cartons x 2.5 = 20 inches of (equivalent) gel penetration. So if 30 inches of water = approx. 20 inches of gel penetration, that would mean the ratio you should be using is about 1.5:1. However, according to The Box O' Truth guy, he says that Gary Roberts told him "You can also use the water testing to get a rough estimate of bullet penetration depth in soft tissue-bullets penetrate approximately 1.6 to 2 times as much in water as in soft tissue”. Perhaps the larger numbers are to account for the slight resistance factor of the milk carton's sidewalls? And then there's Charles Schwartz of Quantitative Ammunition Selection; he uses water testing in his method, and he says he's seen numbers from 1.6 to 2.5x. So what's the real number? And does any of it apply to solid projectiles? I can't say, as I haven't tested solid projectiles in water. I know that MacPherson's original recommendation for using water was as a means to get the bullet to open up, but he didn't recommend measuring the depth in water, he instead would use his mathematical formula to take into account the forces involved that water doesn't exhibit. And Schwartz does the same thing; his book doesn't talk about using the measured depth, just using water to open the bullet up and then using math to determine what the penetration would have been. Which is a long way to say -- I'm not sure water testing of solid projectiles is an appropriately correlatable method. Maybe it is, but I just don't know. As for XP's, I've shot them in bare and denim-covered gel blocks and in ClearBallistics blocks, and they've all stopped less than 20". I have had FMJ's go 25" to 27" in gel, but I haven't seen an XP go anywhere near that far. (oh, and kudos to you for using water bags, rather than plastic jugs! There are people out there using plastic jugs, and those can have a substantial detrimental effect on penetration. Fackler originally specified paper-sided milk cartons, and Schwartz recommends the thin plastic bags; neither of those will substantially affect the penetration).
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