If you’d like to learn more about bits and bitting, we suggest our new DVD, “More Than a Bit… o’Information”. It’s the most comprehensive and thoroughly vetted information available today. You’ll understand how to communicate better with your horse and understand his side of the reins more fully. We describe things from the basics of English and Western and even go into advanced Dressage and Vaquero stuff. Novice to Pro, there’s lots of good info for you. It will pay for itself the very first time you don’t buy the wrong bit. www.dauphinhorsemanship.com/product/more-than-a-bit-o-information/
Thank you! This is by far the best video explanation of bits and transitioning from a snaffle to leverage bit! We are about to make the switch due to rules at upcoming shows for my daughter in 4H. This was very helpful. We had planned on the Argentine bit so I feel much better now after you agreed with that choice. Any suggestions on which brands you prefer?
I’m a lifelong horse lover and rider, always ridden English only, and have admittedly cringed every time I’ve seen those long shank high port bits... (mostly because I’ve seen them used improperly). So I came to this video with a good deal of apprehension, with the opinion that these bits were unnecessary and even cruel. But, I’m also fascinated by all things horse. So, I figured that I might learn a bit about those big ass bits... well, you got me! I’m so grateful that you’re taking the time to explain these bits, because I’ve learned a lot about the finer points of western horsemanship. I might even take a few western riding lessons now (if that’s not a miracle I don’t know what is). Your methodical explanation of the training with transitions to different bits (and why you’d want to use a advanced bit ) was eye opening. I can understand why you’re an accomplished trainer- if you explain as well as that to your horses too. So, thank you- I definitely learned something (old dog here) I really appreciate the info. MBZ, English rider living in a Western world Tucson AZ
I am a long-time trainer and instructor. I watch videos of various trainers; western, dressage, and driving, while I drink coffee in the morning. You have done some mighty fine work on the bits and bitting videos. I wrote magazine articles years ago on this topic. I just purchased your dvd on this topic today and plan to recommend your instruction to others. I can’t argue with anything you have presented, and have learned some things from you. You put it all together so well. Thanks so much for your efforts to educate people on a complicated topic.
Thanks for the kind words. I saw your order and it’ll ship in the morning. Thanks for the business, and if you liked these videos, you’ll love the DVD.
This is probably the best demonstration and definition of bits. I thank you. Hopefully you have helped. A lot of the beginners. Anyhow thank you and I compliment you
Thank you very much for making this series! I am a western performance trainer, and thought I knew about what I was using in my horse's mouth; but now I have a lot more knowledge. It frustrates me when I ride my horse in an 8" grazing bit and people look at me sideways probably thinking "poor horse", now I have a lot more terminology I can use to properly explain to them how it works.
Really excellent and detailed explanation of these different bits. As a still fairly novice western rider it would be nice, as part of the description, to show what is going on inside the horse’s mouth when these bits of varying length and leverage are engaged, and why it’s important to know how to properly use them. Thank you!
fennis26 check out our website in a couple of weeks. We are finished with and are getting printing/packaging finished up on a 5+ hr dvd on bits/anatomy & physiology/ methodology that’s the most comprehensive and unbiased resource available today. We’ve also collaborated with about 9 different experts from DVMs specializing in equine dentistry, to engineers, and even speech pathologists and a facial plastic surgeon who is also an ENT. We’re pretty excited for the public to see it and we really feel like it will revolutionize many horse/human relationships.
@@DanielDauphin WOW! That will be awesome, can’t wait to see it. I ride and take instruction at a ranch near Bellevue, Idaho. I have a great teacher, a former rodeo cowgirl whose son is a current heeler roper on the circuit. They’re great resources but encourage me to “scan the horizon” as there is a lot of info out there. My ultimate goal is to trail ride independently but I want to do it right with the right horses and tack. Thanks for all the great informative!
I want to thank you for the excellent knowledge on bits. I've been told so many things and bought so many different bits because some trainer said I needed a certain one. I only wish I would of had this knowledge some time ago. Thank you Daniel...
As a life long Hunter rider who is transitioning to western pleasure riding after retiring my last Hunter your videos regarding bits have been very educational. Thank-you so much! Nothing like changing disciplines to make you feel like you know nothing about riding. I have recently purchased a 14yo Appy who is finished and wonderful but the problem is my hands. As a Hunter rider I'm used to riding with a lot of contact but that obviously doesn't work with my new horse. It seems to me what I need is a transition bit for me more than for him. His previous owner did mounted orienteering and rode in a correction bit but when I tried to ride him in it with what seemed to me the loosest of reins (what Hunters would call "on the buckle") he would not go forward, would raise his head and generally protest. In her learned hands the bit was fine, in my hands it was an instrument of torture! I did switch him to a loose ring with a bean (something I had on hand) and he was much more comfortable with my heavy hands and willing. Should I continue with the loose ring (I have not used a sting for a curb as you do)? I'm not sure it's enough or the right bit but at the same time I don't want to move to something my hands aren't skilled enough for yet and ruin his soft mouth. It seems this is a case of fitting the bit to the rider who is learning to be soft rather than the horse if that makes sense. What, if any, advice do you have for me?
I'd very much agree with your assessment of fitting the bit to the rider. What you are describing about him not going forward with the correction bit could be a couple of things. He's either anticipating being stopped, or he's testing your leadership. You sound experienced enough to tell the difference. If he goes safely and under control in the loose ring snaffle, then I'd certainly have no issue with riding him in that. Being "on the buckle" and riding more with your seat will take some getting used to, but I'm sure y'all will get it sorted out. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of what's what. I hope this helps you a little bit at least.
Thank you so much for the reply! I did sense a bit of testing on his part and pressed him forward but at the same time recognized an issue with my hands and the bit. I have not felt unsafe or out of control in the snaffle but my riding so far has been confined to an arena and a one acre fenced pasture. Eventually, when I take him out further a field on my property along the river or such I may have the need for more of a bit but that can wait until we are both more comfortable. Also, I would like to learn to neck rein so learning to ride in a curb bit is a goal. Again, thank you for your very informative videos. They have been most helpful for this old Hunter rider trying to learn new tricks.
Daniel, your videos are very informative and logical, and for that I thank you. I'm getting ready to move my horse from a snaffle to a curb bit. She has been gamed her whole life, but I'm done gaming and I'd like to start showing her in western pleasure shows for fun. She's really great in her snaffle. I used to ride her in a German martingale because she would stick her nose out to avoid the bit while I was trying to rate for stops and turns on course. This entire summer I have been riding her without the martingale and she no longer shows the nose-tossing habit. She breaks at the pole and has pretty good lateral flexion and I'm working on training her to neck-rein at all speeds. She is an older horse (probably about 15), so she doesn't freak out when I change tack or try something new. I'm thinking of getting a bit with short, swept-back shanks and a low hinged port (I would post a link, but it won't let me). I don't think the introduction of the port and leverage action will scare her, but do you think I should start her in something like an argentine bit instead? I'd like to find her a "permanent" bit sooner rather than later, and I'm thinking the bit I described above will end up being a long-term bit.
I have start working an elderly horse that has been pastured for around a yr or so. He was sent with a grazing bit. The problem is that he is not responding very well with his turns or stopping, causing me to really dig in his mouth. I am currently looking into a snaffle. My question is should I get a snaffle or look into the transition bit?
Really loved this video, The only opinion I want to give is that I really like mechanical hackamores. I used to have a retired racing Quarter horse that had been jerked around so much she refused to ride in a bit for a long time after i bought her, she stuck it under her tongue and would try to run through it ( she was a wonderful horse and never ran away but she never relaxed). So I put a mechanical hack on her one day, and she became a completely different horse. I will say though that i ride with such a loose curb even on the hack and it had a stopper on it so she rarely felt the chain. But i did everything with her in it, trail riding to rodeos. She was 16.2 hands and where i had to reach up to put a bit in her mouth, she would shove her head in the hackamore for me. Looking back she probably would have loved a bosal too, but I didn't know much about them at the time. Anyway again I loved the video, and I hope to see more. I just wanted to share a good experience.
Thank you for this! I've been so confused about exactly what each bit is good for. I have a TW. Wondering if I need to use different bits for trail and arena? I use a mild port walking bit for trails. But it doesn't seem to work well in the arena when I'm working him on turns etc.
I was misinformed on the Tom thumb bit, was told that it was a snaffle and one with a long shank was a lot milder than a regular tom thumb. I had no experience with this bit but I used it anyway to train a family members horse as she would fight a d-ring and lose o-ring snaffle the bid I had was too mild for her she did fine with the Tom but now knowing what that bit does it want to toss the Tom I have in the trash but I do have a robart cosart pinchless western rafter bit with the argentine cheek would it be possible to start a horse in this bit since it has the argentine cheek or should I go ahead and wait to transition to it? The western rafter is a very mild bit the previous horse I used it on loved it but I would love your advice. Your videos are very educational and eye opening thank you and keep them up!
I wasn't familiar with that bit at all, so, I looked it up. I pretty much would never start a horse in a shanked bit of any kind. Snaffles/sidepulls/hackamores are for starting horses. Shanked bits are for refining skills that they already know.
Daniel Dauphin thank you for the advice and responding so quickly! After I asked the question I realized how silly the question was and how obvious the answer was, but thank you for taking the time to answer I won't start my horse in any kind of shanked bit.
Mr. Dauphin, I don't understand the difference between a tom thumb bit and an argentine bit. Since you dislike the first and like the latter, I'm intrigued by their differences. They seem very similar to me in pictures to be able to tell. ¿Where could I find out more? By the way, I've been riding and taming horses since childhood, and I really appreciate your videos. I've mostly used snaffles though.
Great question! First of all, as I state in the video, they do both have a single jointed mouthpiece, however the typical tom thumb bit has a very coarse, or thick, mouthpiece with bigger than normal rings in the center where the two sides join. I generally prefer a more refined style of mouth piece than what the tom thumb design offers. The main difference will be in the shanks themselves. Keep in mind that a "Tom Thumb" is a very specific type of bit, while an Argentine is just a shank style that can have a variety of mouthpieces. The Argentine shank has the added loop where the mouthpiece actually attaches to the bit. This allows for riding in the two rein style, but more importantly allows the bit to have some "play" which greener horses will appreciate. The tom thumb has a specific type of junction between the mouthpiece and the shank. That particular type of junction is my least favorite way of connecting the mouthpiece to the shank, whether the rest of the bit follows the tom thumb style or not. The Argentine style shank will also have some sweep to the shanks, which keeps the shanks out of line with the horse's mouth and whiskers, and changes the way that the bit balances (this balance is discussed much more in Part 3 of the series). Especially for greener horses, straight shanks can be problematic and generally aren't balanced in a way that the horse is ready to handle. Using pictures to illustrate each point would help a lot, but I hope these words convey my feelings and the "why" behind them. So, basically, at each segment of bit design, there are improvements on the tom thumb style that have been made to address the issues.
Another question: how do you feel about what I call "bubble shanks?" It looks like a snaffle with multiple rings attached for different levels of leverage. Sorry I have no idea what this bit is called but the rings making up shanks look like bubbles
That's difficult to answer because there are quite a few variations of this type of bit. Some have pretty extreme gag action while others are pretty straightforward. For the straightforward ones that simply allow you to change the amount of leverage, I'm fine with them. I'm generally not a fan of gag bits, however. Certainly not the ones who have the ability to use a lot of gag action, like some of these.
Thank you very much for the valuable information I needed. I am having trouble finding your A Bit About Bits Part 3 on leverage bits. Can you tell me where to view it?
Love your videos - i've been through a lot of videos regarding bits and this is by far the most informative. Hoping you have a bit (no pun intended) of advice for me... we are riding a Belgian cross (so a very strong horse) he's 12, has only been ridden pleasure in the past and used to pull logs from what i know. he's pretty obedient (mostly but sometimes he just starts running for the rink exit if he feels like it) and he very forward - at a canter i can hardly hold him at a - for me - rideable speed and have gotten too much advice on 'he should have a stronger bit', currently using snaffle & french link snaffle. Suggested were snaffle with a twist and/or loose ring instead of eggbutt. I know he still needs a lot of training and i don't want to make his mouth any harder than it already is but could use a little help, bits are expansive and i can't just borrow someone else's to see if it's better as nobody at the barn has a bit his size. So any advice is appreciated, thanks in advance.
eva eaton to do this answer justice would be fairly involved. So, rather than write a long winded comment, I'm going to answer you with a video. I'll do my best to have it up later today and will post a link here when done.
Looking for a good correction bit, any brands you recc? Love your videos! Been riding my whole life but this is such valuable knowledge especially when your trying to keep a broke horse broke while using them.
JaiDee T I don't publicly endorse any particular tack/bit manufacturers at this time. You can email me, daniel@dauphinhorsemanship.com, with what you are looking for budget wise, and I'll be glad to point you in a few directions.
My horse is 15 and has only ever ridden in a snaffle. I want to transition him to a leverage bit and I purchased a Cowpuncher 216 correction bit to start him on. Is that going to be too much for him?
That honestly depends more on you than him. If you can very consciously keep your hands very slow, then he should be fine after a period of adjustment. Lots of trainers, including myself often move Colt’s straight into a correction bit. Used with poor timing, however, it can be a disaster.
when should a horse be moved out of the snaffle? can every horse succeed and do well in a snaffle with enough training? do all shows require older horses to have shanked bits? How would you prevent a horse from becoming dull to the snaffle?
The video should have answered most of these questions, but there is no absolute answer to your first. When you think they are ready is when you move them up. Frequently, you'll find holes in their training as soon as you do and you'll spend some time fixing things that they didn't learn from the snaffle as well as you thought they did. Experience helps with this quite a bit. As to can every horse succeed in a snaffle, it depends on what you call success. There are reasons to move them up to a bridle. Those reasons aren't important to some people and what they hold as goals. Pretty much every horse can master basics and be safe to ride in a snaffle with enough training. More advanced polishing of high level skills and things like self carriage will be much more challenging with only a snaffle. This will come down to the individual horse. Some horses won't have what it takes to handle the bridle either. No, the rules of aged horses and bits are up to each individual association. Most of the larger ones do hold with the tradition, with a few exceptions. For instance, you can generally ride an aged speed event horse in a snaffle. You prevent dullness to a snaffle by constantly softening them to it. Horses most often seem to get "dull" to the snaffle after moving them up to a bridle for a while and going back to the snaffle. In reality, they are simply now accustomed to new feelings in their mouths. Some time spent in the snaffle softening them up will fix the dullness.
Hello, can you explain more about the "curve chain"? and the proper position in the Argentinian bit. Thanks. Other thing, if you are not in competition, you do not need a transition bit. ? We can stay with the one that fits well for ever?
The curb strap, or chain should attach to the top ring of the cheek. It can be confusing with the Argentine cheek design, but the ring around the mouthpiece is not for the curb chain and attaching it there would cause the bit to function improperly. You can attach another rein to the ring around the mouthpiece and ride an Argentine cheek in a two rein rig. As to the competitions, if you just want to ride around and enjoy things, and your horse is safely under control, then ride in whatever makes you and your horse happy. If your horse is happy and you are safe, I'm happy.
Should every horse be moved into a curb or some form of transition bit? Something like a lesson horse that does trails as well as possible open shows that don't have bit rules. Would you rather have that extra leverage for a beginner just in case or leverage for a spook on a trail?
I've always thought a correction bit is harsh, and unnecessary, I suppose because of the name. I have a greater understanding of them after watching this video and can appreciate that it is a useful bit. However, I have to ask, (if you know,) why are they called correction bits? What are they intended or thought to correct?
I do not readily know just how they came by the name. If I were to guess, it would be because so many trainers use them to "tune" horses up before shows. In reality, they are used so commonly because they are a bit with a lot of range. You can be soft enough to two hand one around, and get their attention easily when needed. I surely wish they had been named anything else!
I recently rescued a horse that was supposed to be rode constantly but very mouthy to a bit which seemed odd. I looked into her mouth and found she had a good healed but halfway cut tongue the last owner was pretty brutal on this horse. My question would be would you use anything different so it won't further the damage or does she just need to relearn and it feel funny to her now? I use a bit similar to the beginning of this video and keep the reins on the cheek ring.
That sort of thing really has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. I don't have a ton of experience with horses with cut tongues, but I know a lot about scars. Scar tissue is a lot less sensitive than normal tissue, so the horse may well have a very bad memory associated with his mouth, but likely no pain. If the horse is pretty green and not under much control, I'd probably TRY a single jointed snaffle and lots of patience. If the horse is further along and can be ridden safely in one hand, I'd most likely go to a typical curb bit with lots of tongue relief. Hopefully, the tongue relief will help him to relax and stop playing so much with the bit. For more info on tongue relief and curb bits, ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-vDnhyqCCOeI.html
I am not sure which one you are referring to. Several of these have a short Argentine cheek, which can be ridden in a two-rein and has swiveling cheeks, but is also available in a variety of mouthpieces. I think we mostly show a single-jointed short-shanked Bit, and a short-shanked correction bit.
Hi again, this question has to do with leverage ratios. I’m getting some of it but not all of it. Ex: maybe because I can see it on your board, it makes perfect sense to me that for a 5” pull, the shorter shanked bit (with the 1:1.5 ratio) would have a more extreme effect on the horse’s head (more pressure on poll and on jaw). But what I’m not getting is the ratios being a statement of the strength of the pull. Like, in the long shank example, 1 lb of rein pressure = 3 lbs of pressure on the horse. Those two things seem completely contradictory to me. And then, I have trouble with the concept of speed of response. So you’ve got (1) the distance the top of the shank travels (which determines amount of pressure on the horse); (2) the pounds of pressure thing; and (3) the speed factor. And then you also said that in the long shank example, there is less signal to the horse but more penalty for not reacting to the signal. That went completely over my head!
Like a pulley, a lever is a machine that trades distance for a mechanical advantage. The distance traded means that for a 2:1 leverage ratio, I'd have to move the effort part of the lever arm (shank) 2 feet to move my load arm (purchase/port) 1 foot, but I'd only have to use half of the "weight" to be able to move the load. If I use a 10:1 ratio lever then I'd only have to use 1/10th of the "weight", but I'd also have to move my lever arm 10 feet to move the same load 1 foot. Thus, leverage ratios and speed of action are inversely proportional. The more leverage I have, the farther I have to move the Shank before the curb (adjusted exactly the same) would come tight, and thus, the slower the port/purchase move in the horse's mouth. Again, as I discuss in our DVD and beyond what I got into on RU-vid, there are actually two distinct phases of the bit acting as a lever. Everything that happens before the curb comes tight has the cheek acting as a 1st class lever (Signal Phase), which is where the ratio of the purchase to the shank is relevant to speed of action. As soon as the curb comes tight, the purchase ring of the cheek becomes immobilized and it becomes the fulcrum of the lever instead of the mouthpiece (Leverage Phase). This also makes the lever now a 2nd class lever and is when the actual "power" (mechanical advantage) of the lever will be felt by the horse. This is important because the mechanical advantage ratio changes and the lever becomes even more powerful. For example, a 3:1 ratio cheek actually would produce a 4:1 mechanical advantage after the curb has come tight, thus it is 33% more powerful than people actually realize. I hope that wasn't too confusing.
@@DanielDauphin Thank you! I didn't follow all that on the first reading, but will study it. Seems like it answered my question, tho. I appreciate your time.
If your horse is under control and happy, and you don’t plan to show or sell him, and you aren’t interested in pushing your horsemanship level up, then you’re fine. Enjoy him. You can always move up later if that bridle horse bug hits you.
If the rein movement distance is greater for the same effect in high leverage bit, is this a better transition bit or someone who lacks the very experincd hands like yours?
Gil Burns that's a great question! Generally, someone should have good, conscious hands if they are trying to transition a horse through training levels. A higher leverage bit with a very mild type of mouthpiece could indeed be a good choice for someone whose hands are still a little too fast. They'd still need to be conscious of the increased leverage though.
Thank you so very much for your videos!! They have been such a great help in understanding how different bits work etc! Something i have also watched so many different video's about, and had not gotten any proper answers. So thank you very much it is explained so well!! If i could please ask, just to make sure i have understood right concerning one of the bits. If one has a 2ring gag bit (snaffel mouth piece), but one attaches reins only to the bit rings, that it then basically acts as a normal snaffel bit? Is that correct and will such a bit help so that the horse cannot pull the bit through their mouth? (A new bit one has gotten, as i couldn't get hold of a full cheeck snaffel bit. But then i was told that these bit are too severe.) Thank you so much!!
I’d have to see the exact bit to be sure, but you are probably correct in it functioning as a snaffle and a full cheekish one as well. There’s a common style like this called a Baucher, designed by Dressage Master Francis Baucher.
Thank you so very much for the answer, really appreciate it! The bit looks almost like the Bacheur bit, just with another ring at the bottom. So the one i got looks basically like: a snaffel bit, but with 2 small extra rings, 1 right at the top and 1 at the bottom of the main big ring.
So that’s typically called a 3 ring gag and as the name implies would definitely function as a gag bit if the rein were attached to the bottom ring and the head stall and curb were attached to the top ring.
Hi Daniel I was watching your bit about bit videos and they are very informative. Thanks! I would like to know what you think about the WTP (Winning Tongue Plate) Bits? and if you have tried them? Do you or can you use them right from the beginning of the horses training?
Honestly, I had never heard of them so I googled. They have several different styles, all of which seem to address horses with somewhat significant mouth vices. At the end of the day, anything that your horse responds well to is "the right bit". In my opinion, I'd avoid something like this unless I really had a need for it. They seem to be aiming at racing which is a very different "animal" than pretty much any other discipline. If it ain't broke...
We are having a young horse trained only under saddle for 6 mo. Using a snaffle with O rings. The trainer just added the same mouth piece with short shank leverage. Is it a problem for me to lunge him in a D ring Myler comfort snaffle. The trainer will not be working him much now that the snow is here. I have several bits and do not want to buy another if possible. Or should I get a reg. snaffle? and if so what would be a good make and type, that would not cost a lot?
+Daniel Dauphin The trainer has been lunging him with full tack and a bit and long lining him. So I thought I should also lunge him in full tack. Do you feel I should just be ground working him without tack for the winter?The trainer will take him again in the spring for a month to tune him up and trail ride him.
I got an email on a reply to my last that I dont see here. My advice would be to follow your trainer's instructions. Personally, after 6 months of working, and knowing more training is ahead, I'd say just give him some time off to be a horse. No lunging at all, just pasture and herd time.
Given your explanation of how the bit should sit in the horses mouth, in the tongue groove, does that mean the Myler bits that are curved forward for tongue relief are not a good design?
+Taft I wouldn't say that exactly. It does change the balance of the bit and is more for a greener horse. I am not a fan of Myler, however, mostly because they use a fair bit of misinformation and pseudoscience to sell their bits. A fair bit of what they say is correct. Some of it certainly isn't and they tend to have designs that solve those "problems" that don't actually exist. There's the rub for me.
Could you please do a detailed video of how you train a horse to pick up the proper lead, and then how to change leads (if you haven't done this video yet)? I'm in need of some help on getting my mare to pick up the correct lead
I have a 6 year old mare who is tossing her head vertically up and down in short little staccato flips. She also will have her tongue on occasion hanging out of the side of her mouth. She was in a D ring snaffle and I recently moved her into a Myler Full Cheek Bit with Low Port Snaffle and is showing same behaviour. When standing (either with me on her or off) she does not toss her head. Even on a loose rein she will be tossing...all though not as much??Do you have any thoughts or suggestions.
This behavior usually indicates a horse which is resentful of having their face handled. There can be multiple reasons for this. This could mean that you are over handling her mouth according to what she is ready for, training wise. She may simply be of the disposition that is simply very resentful and finicky about being handled. She may need her teeth done by a competent Vet or Equine Dentist. Sometimes, this behavior was caused by past riders and the behavior remained, even with new rider who uses hands appropriately, because the horse has associated being handled with being uncomfortable and still expects the discomfort. I would advise having teeth checked first. Then, be very conscious about the timing of your release of pressure. I would go back to one rein at a time. Hold pressure until you get a calm response. Never give her a release when she is tossing her head. Be consistent! Hope that helps. Good Luck!
I read your post a bit too quickly. All factors that I named still apply, but since she is also doing it on a loose rein, a bit with moving parts, like copper rollers or rings may give her something to play with and pacify herself. If she does this excessively, I might try waiting until she exhibits behavior and simply take up slack and ask her to do something when she head tosses. The hope is that she learns that this behavior gets her more work.
Tom Thumbs are one of the most mass produced bits ever and they are in ever local generic feed store alongside other junk people don't need. Every tack shop, every booth at a horse fair. They are everywhere and I've seen then rot through and break while someone was riding. We got to see what the weld was like and it was not good. Barely was made of metal to begin with.
I have a 2 year old colt that I'm training for cattle and I've been riding him since January, he's in a snaffle and he's really soft and supple to my hands and bends really well and lopes with his head down and relaxed. So would I wait 3 more months to switch him to a shank bit.
For the majority of pro cutting/cow horse trainers, colts are moved out of the snaffle Jan-March of their 3 year old year. About the only exceptions are the colts going to 2 year old sales that may/may not be moved up sooner to give them a more "broke" look. My advice? Don't rush things. There's no prize for "first out of the snaffle". I could about guarantee you that there's plenty more value left in that snaffle for you and your horse.
+Daniel Dauphin ok thank you that's what I was thinking, it's not like I'm taking him to any sales. I'm gonna have him for a long time so I should just take my time and not rush things. Your opinion really helps
I don’t speak about specific makers/manufacturers as that gets into endorsements and sponsorships. I mentioned really liking the Argentine cheek, the Billy Allen and Correction Bit mouthpieces.
@@DanielDauphin I must have misunderstood. At 14:58 in this video you mention one of your favorite finishing bits. I wanted to know what it was. It sounded like a person’s name.
You are correct. That is a bit named after cutting horse trainer Kathy Daughn. It is a short-shanked, tall-ported bit that has a ton of feel and a very fast action. Not a good fit for most people, but it suits me very well.
I get a lot of project horses and I’m struggling with one as of the past month. I have a coming 3 year old barrel prospect that I broke in as a 2 year old and has came along very well. I have recently put him in a junior cow horse bit. When I’m riding I prefer my horse to listen to my body and use my hands as less as possible. Do you have any suggestions on a bit that has a little more collection??
Thanks for your comment, and I saw your other post, and I'll address both here. Basically, everything boils back to lateral flexion. Especially for barre horses, I'm pretty obsessive about lateral flexion and keeping them soft. I'll do jillions of circles on them. This is, in essence, sensitizing. It really doesn't have too much to do with the tool, as long as you're in a sufficiently lateral bit. For 90% of barrel prospects, I'd be in a simple single jointed snaffle. The jr cowhorse is a bit that I use and like, but would be about as far down the road of a vertical or curb bit as I'd go without a real good reason. So, I don't think that you're really needing a different bit. I think that working on methodology more and getting them softer and more compliant, which is unfortunately time consuming, is really the answer. Hope that helps.
Mr. Dauphin - Love your videos and find them so educational. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I recently purchased a 16-year old mare for my 11-year old daughter. She's a been-there, done that kind of horse, and a champ on the trails. Only thing I find is that she can get excited around other horses, put her head in the air, evade the D-ring snaffle, and not listen at all to my whoa. Obviously this is not good. I can't have her running away with my daughter. I'm thinking that something with mild leverage might be just the thing. Do you think one of these transition bits would help? Daughter has a good seat, a couple years of lessons under her belt, but still prefers to ride two-handed. Any insight you might have would be so appreciated.
Very possibly, but to my mind, the disobedience is more indicative of a leadership issue. I would address this in a more training/behavior way. I prefer not to use mechanical devices to avoid problems. Deal with the root cause and that snaffle will be plenty.
Daniel Dauphin Thanks so much for such a fast reply. I think you hit the nail on the head: Respect/leadership. It is our human nature to seek the quick fix, isn't it? But - I'm sure an investment in time and training with daughter+horse will bring a more satisfying long term solution for both. Best Regards.
Thanks for checking out our videos. I'm good with most any sort of hackamore, with the exception being mechanical hackamores. They can work alright, but they are tricky and the leverage is on a very, very thin section of the nasal bone. As far as the Tom Thumb horse, I'd probably go back to a plain single jointed snaffle and just get them relaxed and obedient again before any big changes. Hope that helps.
Really enjoying your videos. I'll try not to sound like an idiot for asking this lol, but I have a question that maybe you could explain the difference for me. Can you describe the working differences in the Argentine bit and the Tom Thumb? I realize the shanks are curved on the Argentine, where the tom thumb are straight. I do see the difference where in the Argentine has the movement and play in the bit on the rings which should make it more comfortable for the horse, and the added ability to add reins directly at the bit ring, reverting it back to an actual snaffle. Now I've always steered clear of the tom thumb and advised friends to do the same do to the "nut cracker" effect. This has actually made me steer away from all single jointed leverage bits. Tho you now have me interested in the Argentine bit and have me maybe rethinking this decision and wondering. Do you not get the "nut cracker" effect with the Argentine bit? Look forward to watching more of your videos, thanks.
We are doing another video just on this topic. Should be out soon. Long story short, any single jointed bit can have nutcracker effect, but only when both reins are pulled at the same time, which is an advanced request that should only be asked of a more advanced horse.
Dawn P The video addressing the Nutcracker Effect is now up. The Nutcracker Effect of Single Jointed Bits, Myth? Enjoy and let me know if this answers all of your questions.
Daniel, WHY is Curly comfortable in the correction bit and can be in it all day? I've heard such disparate views on this particular mouthpiece! A person who graduates the horse to a western 'cathedral' mouth says these bits are awful, yet I bought mine from a cutting/reining trainer. Very confusing for most of us who are trying to do right by our horses, to get opposing views from high-level trainers.
The easiest way is to take a small piece of rope and tie a knot in one end. Put the rope in the horse's mouth at the corners and pull the knot up to the offside corner of the mouth. Pinch the rope on the near side at the corner of the mouth to mark the spot and remove it from the horse. Simple measure from the knot to where you pinched the rope and you have the width of your horse's mouth.
It would depend on the individual horse, but I generally have them start in either a halter or snaffle bit. Once they have an independent seat and have slowed their hands down, whatever is appropriate for that horse and it's level of training.
Daniel Dauphin Thank you, You are spot on in needing them to slow their hands and correct seat! I have to break down steering into several easy steps for them or else their hands are way too fast and all over the place. The kids are also very hesitant to let go of the saddle horn and find their own balance. The mare does not know advanced maneuvers (that I am aware of), but is an easy-going trail horse that's been there done that. Currently, I have the mare in a D-ring medium twisted snaffle with a tongue relief. It is not a thin snaffle and it is also not flat (you gave that a name and it escapes me now), but it bends around the mouth with the horse. What are your opinions on using that type of bite for kid riders and beginners? I was also wondering if you could please show, on a horse or two, how tight a bit should be in the horse's mouth. A lot of people around here say there needs to be a wrinkle or two. Some say tight enough so you can't pull it out. I understand for true lightness and suppleness you do not want that constant pressure of the bit from the headstall being to tight, but could you show what that looks like? I feel like I may have it too tight, but I am unsure and do not want the bite coming out (but now I going to use your seatbelt idea on snaffles). I was also told not to use O-ring snaffles because they pinch the horse's mouth a lot, but what is your opinion on that?
I'm not a fan of inexperience and twisted wire, if that is what you meant. The rest sounds fine thanks for the comments. As to the other video of the adjustment on a live horse, it should be coming soon. We have tried to shoot it a few times, but it is pretty tough to zoom in and give a good view while keeping up with a moving animal. The tech stuff we are learning as we go. A couple more videos will be out within days.
Hi Daniel, your videos on bitting are by far the best ones on the internet. I have two questions having nothing to do with each other so will ask separately. This is about the Tom Thumb and the Argentine snaffle. For the sake of this question, let’s assume that they are the same bit, other than the Argentine having the direct rein option and the Tom Thumb not having it. (If you google Tom Thumb images, of the zillions of bits that come up, they mostly all have the mouthpiece/shank connection you don’t like; but more often than not the shanks are swept back and it’s hard to tell whether the mouthpiece joint is particularly crude.) The question: I’m wondering why it is that you like the TT/AS design, when the loose parts wobble every which way. How can the horse NOT be confused? Rather than elaborate on how that is so, I’m just going to attach a link to Mark Rashid’s writeup about it. A bit long-winded but still better than me paraphrasing. Anyway, I totally understand carrying over the same broken mouthpiece the horse is used to from the snaffle, but why not attach one of those bars to the ends of the TT shanks so that they can’t move all around and send conflicting signals? I guess for that to work, the place where the mouthpiece attaches to the shanks would have to be fixed (not swivel), but I’m sure there are bits like that. Thoughts? www.markrashid.com/docs/tomthumb.pdf
I only got a few paragraphs into that article and already had found multiple statements that weren't true (Tom Thumb is an English design, Snaffles DO NOT have to have broken mouthpieces, etc.), plus he was trying to sell me something right from the start (no knock intended on Mark Rashid), so I stopped. I'm generally just not a fan of single jointed curb bits. I only use them on certain horses and generally only for a short while due to the problems stated in this video. The Tom Thumb is an old English design. it has several pitfalls, as I've outlined in this video. Those design flaws have been addressed in new bits. So, I don't really recommend spending much time in a single jointed curb bit at all, but if you're going to, I certainly don't recommend spending that time in a design known to be flawed. That's like recommending that you invest in a brand new 8 track tape deck. I hope that answers your question. Since Mark Rashid can try to sell you something, I'll do the same. We are just about ready to begin shipping our first DVD, "More Than a Bit...o" Information". It is a 4 disc set about bits and the things that affect how you use them. I honestly believe that it is the most comprehensive project on bits available. It has been heavily researched and I even used multiple experts from multiple fields outside of the horse industry (like doctors, dentists, speech pathologists, DVMS, equine dentists, and a couple of engineers to back up my claims on the physics and mechanics). I don't think you'll have many questions or doubts after watching all of that. And, yes, it does contain lots of things in more depth than I went into on these RU-vid videos.
@@DanielDauphin Thanks for responding to my comment. I certainly understand your annoyance with the inaccuracies in the article. I think I did not state my question clearly -- buried it, probably. My question is why you think the TT is bad but are fairly OK with the Argentine snaffle. You stated three faults with the TT (joint in the mouthpiece being larger/crude, badly designed swivel at the sides of the mouth, straight shanks) that the AS doesn't share. Yes, the AS has the bit ring at the mouthpiece that the TT doesn't have. But it seems to me that the worst thing about the TT is the design (broken mouthpiece on a shank bit) which the AS does share. So that was my question -- why use the AS at all?
@@epona9166 Gotcha. So, I'm simply not a fan of the single jointed shanked bit. If I'm going to use it, I'm going to use the best version of it. I use it mostly to transition a horse up to a shanked bit, and particularly those horses that have been a little slower on the uptake, or more resistant to change. When I am doing this, I am predominantly still using two hands on the reins and pulling on one rein at a time. This helps to acclimate the horse to the new feels of the curb and the curb mechanics and links them to easy exercises that he'd be very familiar with. I'll slowly start using the two reins simultaneously just to feel them out. Hopefully, my horse was well prepared and we go through this in a couple of weeks or so. Then I move on to a different mouthpiece. If the horse in question is a high flyer that I'm not worried at all about the transition, then I may go straight to a correction bit. Sometimes, I use a Billy Allen as the in between step. It all depends on the individual horse and their needs. Basically, I only use the single jointed shanked bit as training wheels. I get away from it ASAP. That being said, some horses do just fine in it and have no issues. It is, however, what I'd look at as a fairly low success type of bit, meaning that a high number of horses do not do well in it over the long term.
@@epona9166 I did go back and read most of that article (though I only skimmed the last page and a half). He described quite a few things that all curb bits do, including the solid bits that he seems to prefer, and attributed them as negative aspects of the Tom Thumb. Of that entire article, actually only a few sentences were about things that are specific to single jointed shanked bits. I'm honestly not sure what his point is. Yes, the pressure is different and in different places from a curb vs a snaffle. This is why we spend time reviewing old exercises in the new bit. It really is far less of an ordeal than he makes it out to be. Or at least it has been for the hundreds and hundreds of horses that I've done this with. Maybe all of them were weird... While I'm sure that Mr. Rashid has lots to offer in the way of wisdom and advice, this particular offering was a swing and a miss. No big deal. When I re-watch these videos there's lots that I wish I had said differently. It happens to us all.
@@DanielDauphin I wasn't asking that you spend anymore time on the article, but I appreciate that you did. I was just wanting to know why you find any use in the Argentine snaffle when its basic design is the same as the TT. Maybe I'm coming across as argumentative; I don't mean to be. I'm just really wanting to understand bitting, and I will definitely get your DVD set when it comes out. My other question about leverage ratios -- the answer to that isn't going to be short. If it's covered in the DVD set I'll just wait for that. One more thing: are you essentially done with your bitting DVDs or are you still taking suggestions? One thing I've been confused by has to do with wrinkles in the corner of the horse's mouth. Most people these days seem to advocate no wrinkles, but I know that when the corner of the horse's mouth is low, if you have no wrinkles then the bit can sit too loosely or too low in the horse's mouth. Then what? Hike it up and have one or more wrinkles, or just go bitless (e.g., bosal) or some sort of specially designed bit? Would love to know that. Not a problem with my horse but still...
Yes, that’s a single-jointed Argentine cheek. I generally only use it for a month or so, right at the transition, on my slower picking up on things horses. I’m pretty much riding it like a snaffle 90% of the time. Two hands and 1rein at a time. The Billy Allen and ported Billy Allen are excellent choices liked by many horses and used for a lot longer in the progression. Single-jointed shanked bits are way over-ridden IMO.
WOW, THANK YOU FOR SHARING. I DID NOT REALIZE ALL OF THIS INFO. I WILL DEFINITELY TAKE YOUR ADVICE. ONCE AGAIN THANKS SO MUCH FOR SHARING. DO YOU HAVE AN EMAIL? I WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS ONE ISSUE I AM HAVING WITH MY MARE.
i disagree with you about the hackamore. With respect, if you have a horse that has been hard mouthed due to unknowledge riders and takes off for the barn the hackamore is a good way to get that horse to remember you are asking it to stop without a lot of pressure.
My dislike is of mechanical hackamores, specifically. I have no issues with regular hackamores. Because of the mechanics, resulting leverage, and anatomy of the horse’s skull, it is very difficult to use a mechanical hack without a lot more pressure than you probably think.
lester mckee also, because of their design, mechanical hacks are not well suited to lateral flexing, which should be the foundation of pretty much everything else.
I agree that in the hands of a beginner it would be a no no. But if you have exhausted most other bits there is two corses, get rid of the non-stop horse or hackamore
I ride with a Warner Mechanical hackamore. Lateral flexion, Vertical flexion, Back, sidepass all day long. Anything you can do, I can do better. I'll never even touch him with the curb chain. I challenge you.
Ummm dont hacks HAVE a chain UNDER the chin? My mare will work happily with a tom thumb, but will try and flip over with a mechanical hack. If you said bosal i would have been more inclined to agree, but mechanical is worst than most bits IMO.
Yes. I ride with a bosal and a rope halter as well. My horse doesn't know the differance. It's all light pressure that makes these things work. The Warner Hackamore can be ridden two handed and is great for lateral flexion. I might need to touch him with the curb chain when making 15 second barrel turns.
If you aren't even needing to enact the curb chain to be so wonderful, then why in the world are you using a mechanical hack in the first place? That's a head scratcher...
