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A Day of Unexpected CSX Railfanning - Unexpected Catches 

Central Penn Rail Productions
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Some days your railfan plans don't pan out, so you end up following a back up plan instead. That's exactly what happened on a March railfan trip to Green Spring, WV to chase the South Branch Valley railroad, but with no crew arriving, we instead followed CSX through Western Maryland and Pennsylvania. We had a CSX local train in mind, but did not find them either. Instead, we lucked into several unexpected catches as the day progressed that easily made up for the slow morning. I hope you join us trackside for a day of CSX railfanning shot in 4K to take you there! Train information is provided in the commentary, including history and other information for those who want to learn more about railroad.

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7 май 2020

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Комментарии : 136   
@drwho135
@drwho135 4 года назад
I learned more here today than I have in 20 years of rail-fanning. Thanks for the detailed commentary without boring us to death. You did great.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks, glad you found it informative!
@f.gregorywalsh4862
@f.gregorywalsh4862 4 года назад
I especially love the personal commentary!
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks!
@lukemeyers8028
@lukemeyers8028 2 года назад
Thanks for sharing! Very informative!!
@garypyke1576
@garypyke1576 4 года назад
Great video! I liked your narration of what the trains were doing and hauling.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks for watching! Glad you liked the narration.
@Trains21
@Trains21 4 года назад
Outstanding.. Loved the history, the scenery, the trains and the storytelling of an incredible (and unexpected) adventure.. Don't have a "favorite" part.. The whole video was top notch which is why I've watched it over ten times so far.. Also because it ranks in my top 5 favorite railroad videos of all time whether on or off of You Tube.. Very well done.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Hi AC, thanks as always for stopping by, hope you are doing well. Sorry to hear about what happened to your computer, hopefully things get resolved soon! This took way longer to make than I'd like to admit, but I'd say it's one of my favorites so far too, huge thanks for the views and comment!
@darrelgibbs4898
@darrelgibbs4898 4 года назад
it about time your bought something new 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 are gone start putting up new ones thankyou for the new video
@odddiabetic
@odddiabetic 4 года назад
This is what I'm looking for! Steady footage, good sound, and relevant narration. You've earned a subscription sir!
@crosstiespike
@crosstiespike 4 года назад
Faily new to train videos and the narration is hugely helpful. Thanks. I can learn more watching one of your videos than all the rest together. Very Professional. I will be a multi day viewer. Watching all of it easy as fallin' off a log.
@free2roam674
@free2roam674 2 года назад
Loved the full spectrum narration as well as video. My favourite part was the coal train tip-toeing off the siding, with fingers crossed. I love the variety where you film, I live in Calgary, Ab and our options, while super cool, are not as varied. Although watching trains go through the spiral tunnels never gets old, especially eastbound and going uphill.
@bnsf7562
@bnsf7562 4 года назад
Well done, Eric! Thank for sharing. I've been wanting to revisit Sandpatch, but I've been told it isn't the same as it used to be.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
It's not, no more manned helpers and very limited traffic. Q369 and Q370 were just abolished (Q370 combined with Q348 and Q015 picks up the Q369 freight at Cumberland, tacking it behind the DPU). With the auto industry shuttered, that leaves Q349/Q349, Q016/Q015, Q138 (combined with Q136) and Q135 (combined with Q137) the only daily traffic right now (and Amtrak of course), plus about a loaded and empty coal train per day and any other random unit traffic. Much slower railroad now than what we're used to, but there's something so peaceful about this part of the state, I will keep visiting, possible back again later this year to do more S&C coverage.
@LewisMarien
@LewisMarien 4 года назад
I love that F-unit you caught in the beginning. Reminds me of the Keokuk Junction ones that they just got rid of last summer :-( LOL Hope you're staying safe amid the pandemic madness!
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
So far so good, this was my last full day of railfanning, but I've been going out here and there for a train or two. And that F unit is interesting, it was one of the last ones around hauling freight in this area (though not often), but I never did get to see it doing that. As far as I know, the new owners have not yet painted it, but I am curious to see what they do to it, maybe Chessie or B&O colors?
@whistle.productions
@whistle.productions 4 года назад
Another fantastic video! I always enjoy watching and can’t wait for the next vid!
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Glad you liked it, got several I am working on, just need time to finish them up ;-)
@austinyingst5902
@austinyingst5902 4 года назад
I was through that stretch several decades ago. Thanks for the eories.
@deborahmaciak5692
@deborahmaciak5692 3 года назад
Narration makes CSX videos better.
@guy_called_Odin
@guy_called_Odin 4 года назад
Really appreciate the commentary, thanks!
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks, glad you liked it!
@roballen5670
@roballen5670 2 года назад
That's a great catch of those SD40-3's what a rarity. Great Video. Keep them coming.
@Urnieburns70
@Urnieburns70 4 года назад
Brilliant, G'day from Adelaide South Australia. Keep Safe
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks for watching!
@thekeystonestaterailfanner1334
@thekeystonestaterailfanner1334 4 года назад
Nice video! Well done! I love the Mountain Subdivision, and I own a cabin right by the CSX in Pinkerton, PA... not far from Rockwood.
@dirkdiggler2930
@dirkdiggler2930 3 года назад
Nice details and description.
@thealmightydoge5653
@thealmightydoge5653 3 года назад
I felt like railfanning since the day I moved to Jersey! Awesome catches dude! I loved this!
@CSXcamper
@CSXcamper 2 года назад
Thank you for this video. As I have TSW2 Sand Patch game on my PC. It's nice to see good quality videos on the area I play to pass the time in the colder months.
@wilson561
@wilson561 2 года назад
I liked the clarity of your video and the bits of history you injected throughout. Thank you for posting.
@haaseshouseoscience6377
@haaseshouseoscience6377 3 года назад
Awesome caches, I also railfanned up at Cumberland 9-12-20 and the highlights I caught at the deadline yards were: - The stealth unit - The Monon Emblem - The Spirit of Nashville - 4 SD50-3's - Ex-CR & Ex-LMSX C40-8W's - A YN2 SD40-2 - A Cabless Yard Slug - A RARE SD60M - And lots more
@gemmumma8354
@gemmumma8354 3 года назад
worth a second watch.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 3 года назад
Thanks, I watched it a few times myself, haha
@alangibson3293
@alangibson3293 4 года назад
Thanks.
@dickash1003
@dickash1003 2 года назад
Very cool to see something from this part of the world. My mother was from Moorefield. I'm in Huntington on the far west side of WV. I go to Moorefield for a family reunion every June.
@TheMilwaukieDan
@TheMilwaukieDan 2 года назад
Great educational explanations in commentary. The absolute I’ve listened to on RU-vid so far. Thankyou
@natgass8102
@natgass8102 3 года назад
nice comments explaining things
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 3 года назад
Thank you glad you liked it!
@FCP501
@FCP501 4 года назад
Really entertaining catches and narration, didn't even feel like an almost 30min video. Great job!
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
That's good, glad you liked it! Thanks for seeing it all the way through.
@echucker
@echucker 4 года назад
Central Penn Rail Productions hello! Great video! I don’t do much train chasing, but hey, do you railfan out of PA?
@NSBlack_Stallion
@NSBlack_Stallion 10 месяцев назад
Enjoyed see those C&O cars.
Год назад
Enjoying all your great videos! =)
@Kmaster2007
@Kmaster2007 2 года назад
Kinda funny I have a photo in a book from the Chessie era of those same types of welded rail cars crossing at that same interlocking in the mid 80s, and it was meeting a train going west too. really cool video around Cumberland!
@mccoy79productions66
@mccoy79productions66 Год назад
Very Nice! Outstanding
@ngauge22
@ngauge22 4 года назад
This was a very well produced video. I liked the informative narration and chatter among the crews from the radio. Nice job. I will be watching more of your videos.
@Locos-del-oeste
@Locos-del-oeste 4 года назад
Excellent vídeo my friend !!! Like 😉👍
@Nicola636128
@Nicola636128 4 года назад
Great video!
@lmsrail
@lmsrail 3 года назад
Awesome video! You ended up getting some great luck in end!
@matthewmcgrew2597
@matthewmcgrew2597 2 года назад
JUST FOUND YOUR CHANEL like what I have seen thus far
@taslimchoudhary1253
@taslimchoudhary1253 4 года назад
Nice Video 🌺🌺🇮🇳🌺🌺
@tractorsmachinesro1405
@tractorsmachinesro1405 3 года назад
Absolute amazing capture
@jamesalarkin1795
@jamesalarkin1795 4 года назад
Thanks great video railfan restricted by cv19
@kelvintorrence5994
@kelvintorrence5994 2 года назад
Great video was that a old switcher and a old western Maryland unit next to the coal mine. Good job
@jgehbinv
@jgehbinv 3 года назад
Your videos are fantastic. Video quality and audio are superb and you do a great job with timely narration. Keep it coming!
@ronacornwall4426
@ronacornwall4426 2 года назад
Awesome video and great, informative commentary :) (I often wondered what CSX stood for)
@tomhorst1427
@tomhorst1427 2 года назад
Loved this interesting video
@railfanjk8964
@railfanjk8964 4 года назад
nice video
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks!
@MattsTrainArchive
@MattsTrainArchive 4 года назад
Amazing production. I hope you get to 100,000 subscribers soon!
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Yeah me too, thanks!
@proudfoamer2
@proudfoamer2 4 года назад
I love your narration.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thank you!
@TheRandomRailfan
@TheRandomRailfan 4 года назад
Excellent catches! The commentary makes the videos just that much better!
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks, glad you like it. I think I will stick with it for most videos, really puts a story to it.
@TheRandomRailfan
@TheRandomRailfan 4 года назад
@@CentralPennRailProductions Great to hear.
@AndreiTupolev
@AndreiTupolev 4 года назад
Very good voiceover, and those maps are very helpful. That engineering train is interesting, I thought the little cab thing on the end was powering the whole thing.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks as always, glad you liked the video! There's a video (maybe you've seen it) Thornapple River Rail Series that explains how they work called "TRRS 478: CSX Rail Unloading Train at Work". I would have liked to seen this one in action, but the landscape between Rockwood and Garrett is a inaccessible gorge.
@FrogandFlangeVideo
@FrogandFlangeVideo 4 года назад
You put together a great story on the trains of the day. Your use of maps add helpful context to where you are.. At about 13:50 the centerbeams are carrying what ?? aluminum slugs maybe ?
@seanny4296
@seanny4296 4 года назад
Your narration and videography are superb! The scenery is so beautiful in that part of the country. What program do you use to use to make the makes you show on screen?
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
I just trace over Google Map images (or other railroad maps I find online) in Photoshop using a series of layers with the brush or pen tool. I might do a video on it sometime, since a lot of people ask. It can be time consuming (mainly because I am picky) but I like making them because it helps me learn the territory. Also, gives me time to listen to all my music while I work! Thanks for watching and commenting.
@lonnybruce9407
@lonnybruce9407 2 года назад
Good info on rail moved export coal.
@charlesshivoder2887
@charlesshivoder2887 4 года назад
Hello from Cornwall. Away from home, I see. Fun video. Other than riding B&O passenger trains through that territory many year ago, that’s terra incognito to me. I really like the narration. You have a good voice and speak clearly and slowly. Quite nice actually. As always, your video work is first rate!! Thank you again. I always await your wonderful videos. Stay Well. I put a few insignificant items in your email. CAS.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Hello again Charles, good to hear from you as always. I will have to catch up on my email this week LOL! (I was away this weekend, not for trains, but visiting family). Thanks again, I enjoy the pictures you send me.
@charlesshivoder2887
@charlesshivoder2887 4 года назад
Central Penn Rail Productions Hi Eric. As I told you I’m the worst photographer, but thank you. Good weather predicted for this weekend. Meet trackside?? CAS
@CalebsRailFilms
@CalebsRailFilms 2 года назад
That was a really great video, mate! Fantastic filming and great commentary too! I’m a new subscriber, your video came up in my varied suggestive videos and I’m glad I clicked on the video, I do love American freight trains. I live in Adelaide, South Australia, and we have freight trains also, double-stacked container trains, mineral ore, steel, grain, just to name a few. You can see them on my channel, Caleb’s Rail Films, you’re most welcome to check them out when you have time. My intention is to eventually come to the States to film your amazing freight trains, so much longer than ours usually. I only hope there is still coal trains around to film when I get there in 2025. 2025 is what we are aiming for as it will be my 30th birthday year. The bulk of our coal trains down under are on the East Coast in New South Wales and Queensland. A bit of a hike to see them regularly where I live lol 😆. I never knew Shaw Mine on the Salisbury Branch is only serviced once a month, interesting. The Shaw Mine sequence on the video was my favourite. I do love playing Sand Patch Grade on Train Sim World 2 as well. Though, gaming doesn’t do justice to this extraordinary route. You have to see it in person and hopefully I will be able to do that at some point. Anyhoo, take care, stay healthy and I look forward to your next video. Regards, Caleb
@irvinklugh8858
@irvinklugh8858 4 года назад
LOVE IT
@KrC-1207
@KrC-1207 2 года назад
CSX # 83 never seen a number that low here in Marion Ohio
@NSFAN8000
@NSFAN8000 4 года назад
Very Nice Catches There! U should do a vid on the NS Lurgan Branch next!
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
You know, for living as close as I do to the Lurgan I just don't get over that way much. I do have some clips there from over the years, so I might have to go back and get more footage to do a whole video! I was REALLY bummed after I got a perfectly lit shot of KH00 at Shippensburg with 3 GPs (back in 2018), only to find out the audio didn't record, so I will have to go back to get them again too.
@NSFAN8000
@NSFAN8000 4 года назад
@@CentralPennRailProductions Cool! U should totally go back!
@roanokedistrictrailfan873
@roanokedistrictrailfan873 4 года назад
This video is well executed. Narration is on point and professional, almost reminds me of my videos. Also, have you thought about coming to the NS Roanoke District again? If you are, let me know and maybe we can get together.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
I was by there briefly on my way down/back from NC over Thanksgiving and January, I might have enough content to do a video, just need time to get around to it. I want to revisit while there are still CPLs, but with traffic down so much with the virus I am praying NS doesn't route the remaining through traffic via Lynchburg.
@doubleutubefan5
@doubleutubefan5 4 года назад
Would love to meet with you some day. I'm part of Railfanning Adventures! on Fb and RU-vid. Ypur videos are so well done and informative that it would be really cool to be on location with ya. I have fond memories of Cumberland to Martinsburg and the surrounding areas.
@jontaylor6068
@jontaylor6068 4 года назад
I wish CSX does heritage unit paint schemes like NS and UP did. I hate those small decals that you can’t see
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
I know you what you mean, and they removed a lot of the decals. But railroads are cheap cheap cheap right now, they probably won't paint any special locomotives for awhile. In fact, CSX 911, 1776 and 3194 are stored.
@jontaylor6068
@jontaylor6068 4 года назад
Central Penn Rail Productions i know what you mean about being cheap right now. But I hope in the future CSX will do it.
@killerbees177
@killerbees177 3 года назад
Its cool to see Cumberland Yard on video after being familiar with it in Train Sim World 2. I now know what left part of the Y goes to at Viaduct Junction
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 3 года назад
Thanks and yes, this is my favorite route from Train Sin World 2!
@metronorthrailfan2244
@metronorthrailfan2244 Год назад
@@CentralPennRailProductions I can see why a lot of people, myself included love the route in the game. The good news is you'll still be able to enjoy it in Train Sim World 3
@mattmills1108
@mattmills1108 2 года назад
I live right across the river from Hancock and I get great train traffic on my property
@65gtotrips
@65gtotrips 2 года назад
🔰 This videographer has such a calming voice 👍
@daf827
@daf827 2 года назад
Outstanding video in every respect: locations, videography and narration. Since you’re so familiar with PA railroading, have you been to any of the locations used in the movie “Unstoppable”?
@3985uprr
@3985uprr 3 года назад
Hello I met you east of Richland in October of last year at the grade crossing. Can you tell me how many trains I can see in daylight on Sand patch these days and if you know what train symbols I’m likely to see. Thanks. I may go there in January for several days
@mattmills1108
@mattmills1108 2 года назад
I live right across the river from Hancock and there where I live we get great train traffic every day‘s a go for my property
@deborahmaciak5692
@deborahmaciak5692 4 года назад
Make more videos please, I SUBSCRIBED!
@AndreiTupolev
@AndreiTupolev 4 года назад
That pair, 465 & 8909, also feature in another video I've just been watching today.
@saltman9584
@saltman9584 4 года назад
CSX lately has bin cutting back on loco power. The owner calls it cost saving but it really isn't its making things a lot worse than what it could of bin.
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
I tend to agree with this statement, trains are so underpowered they can barely do the speed limit. Plus the software onboard tells the engineer how to run the train, no more days of letting skilled engineers do their job, and you wonder why trains crest mountains at 3 MPH in the 5th notch?
@paul-andrelarose3389
@paul-andrelarose3389 2 года назад
Excellent commentaries! I deplore however the overall lack of plant maintenance - this does not do justice to legacy of the original railway visionaries responsible for the very existence of these infrastructures. 2021/10/30. Ontario, Canada.
@dismalgravesite7763
@dismalgravesite7763 2 года назад
best chilidogs known to man can be found in downtown cummbie...
@bigjohnrailproductions8370
@bigjohnrailproductions8370 4 года назад
My favorite part was the SD40-3 numbers are brother sister pair. AC44CW including YN2 paint still running. The older CSX YN1 Lastly the Caboose Cross track safety. Stay safe during Covid-19. National Train Day is tomorrow. Enjoy
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
I agree, also I forgot to mention the YN2 AC4400CW has a special cut plow for third-rail clearance over Metro North, so it was cool to see that out here. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@3985uprr
@3985uprr 3 года назад
I met you at that little Crossing in Richland last October. These days how many trains can I see on the sand patch grade each day in daylight. I’d like to go there in the fall and hike on the western Maryland rail trail which I understand is always in close proximity to CSX
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 3 года назад
Ah yes! I remember. And that's a good question, maybe one per hour? There's usually a cluster in the morning with Amtrak hitting the mountain around 8:30-9:30. There's generally several afternoon eastbounds as well which are well lit around that curve where the WM truss bridge crosses the CSX mainline.
@3985uprr
@3985uprr 3 года назад
Central Penn Rail Productions Thanks. I want to hike the WM rail trail and railfan at the same time. That would be a good combo.
@georgewilson1184
@georgewilson1184 2 года назад
It’s a daily manifesto to Chicago
@AlexEAE
@AlexEAE 4 года назад
Awesome film - you do the same I do in my channel. Only differences are the language and the country. Thx for showing and the comment
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Thanks for checking out the video!
@unity3596
@unity3596 3 года назад
This route reminds me of something i play the remastered version everyday
@AUSSIETRAINDRIVER
@AUSSIETRAINDRIVER 3 года назад
Man we got to meet up when this covid is over! I need these trains in my life! And I drive them! Haha
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 3 года назад
Thanks man, it would be an awesome trip! Appalachia is hard to cover because of the sharp drop off in coal in recent years and these mines sit at the northern end of that region. Some load outs get one or two trains a month, though their proximity in the mountains means with driving, knowledge, and a lot of luck, you can find some very interesting mining operations - certainly high risk but high reward. There are busier mines that load daily, but those are in far less interesting places. I regret not exploring in busier times, but what can you do?
@AUSSIETRAINDRIVER
@AUSSIETRAINDRIVER 3 года назад
@@CentralPennRailProductions you have some good stuff none the less! It's great!
@CodeCreatures
@CodeCreatures 3 года назад
What is that noise at 13:12? I've heard it before but I'm not entirely sure what it is. Thanks in advance.
@AlexEAE
@AlexEAE 4 года назад
16:25 did anyone recognize the EMD T4 uint #8909 ?
@OntarioRailfan992
@OntarioRailfan992 4 года назад
i did
@denault3985
@denault3985 4 года назад
Great content and narration, but no 4k as mentioned in your description...the 4k is there now (revised 5/09). Btw, are you using the new 4k Panasonic Camcorder for this video?
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
That's interesting to know, seems like 4K takes close to a day to process. But this was still with the Sony AX100, predating the Panasonic camera release date by about a week. Still doing tests, getting decent picture quality but not so good with the audio. I got the XLR handle for it, just waiting the cables. Once those arrive I will probably be back out again to test it. I've been lazy over the years just relying on the 1/8" audio jack, because the Sony did decent with it. I tried a preamp with the X1500 but that didn't do a lot either. However, time to up my game I guess, I hope the XLR inputs will provide a much clearer (less hiss) signal. Anyway, thanks again for watching!
@rancelynch6514
@rancelynch6514 2 года назад
If an engine is off line, is it running or is the engine turned off?
@johnleemuyo
@johnleemuyo 2 года назад
To be continued? Part 2?
@alexandergrube6437
@alexandergrube6437 4 года назад
if the Georges Creek Railroad has no customers, then why did they buy a new locomotive?
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
They purchased it a few years ago I believe. I don't know the details of why it hasn't been shipped to them yet, maybe they are paying to have it stored off-site-I don't know. But they are doing a great job preserving the history of these Western Maryland units, bringing them back to home territory. It's possible the units may spend time in passenger service or special excursions on the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad if freight business conditions do not improve.
@killerbees177
@killerbees177 4 года назад
Do you know which line Amtrak 29 was running?
@CentralPennRailProductions
@CentralPennRailProductions 4 года назад
Amtrak 29 runs Washington DC to Chicago, IL, we caught them on the Cumberland Terminal Sub in this video.
@65gtotrips
@65gtotrips 2 года назад
🔰 How do you know if a locomotive is ‘offline’ aka ‘dead in tow’❓Is it because there’s no smoke from the top or are you looking at the heat exchangers on the top sides❓
@amarbapat8599
@amarbapat8599 2 года назад
How do.you pick up.the chatter of the conductors being an indian railfan, we just keep staring at the signal to guess if a train is coming or not.😅😅😅😅
@louisianamainlineproductions
@louisianamainlineproductions 2 года назад
27:40 YN2 in the background
@Crystal-2028
@Crystal-2028 2 года назад
Never seen twin units run together in real life or on youtube(11:39)
@ernestimken6969
@ernestimken6969 2 года назад
I give a ditto to Trains 21.
@65gtotrips
@65gtotrips 2 года назад
🔰 How do they know all this VERY detailed data about each singular locomotive/railcar and which import/export terminals❓It’s quite fascinating.
@stanpolchinski8956
@stanpolchinski8956 2 года назад
know nothing r.r., old man was window replacement up in north white plains 1946-1956 pass in to gct & w.p.? was is trye down? every thing else is explained well.
@anderson79538
@anderson79538 2 года назад
why cant we hear the engine work, as oppossed to watching cars pass by like counting sheep
@anderson79538
@anderson79538 2 года назад
more engine work, where the throttle-up and drop is not edited out
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